I come from the school that says to finish off a basement you first put plastic over the walls (in this case solid concrete walls) and then build your stud walls, insalate, electric, etc, DW and finish the walls.
I recall reading somewhere, no idea where that that is no longer the acceptable route. Is that true and if so what is the acceptable path to take these days? In this house owner claims in many years of ownership they’ve never seen moisture on the concrete walls at all.
If at first you don’t succeed, try using a hammer next time…everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Replies
First, get the customer to go away for a bit ....
Then, use hat channels to stand the new wall an inch off the surface of the wall.
Though, putting the walls up should come after you make the floor. The floor ought to be pressure treated wood sleepers, R-Max foam between them, covered with a sturdy subflooring. Leave a 1/2" gap around the perimeter.
Likewise, end the walls 1/2" above the floor. Your baseboard will conceal these gaps ... but the gaps will allow any moisture to drain, or simply evaporate.
The owner wants to put carpet down. I could price out those 2x2 panels that interlock together and make it a subfloor and carpet that.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
we repair guys love it when you build the basement floor up with all that foam and wood.
then when the:
- toilet overflows
-washing machine hose breaks
-dishwasher floods
-etc.
we get to come in and rip the whole basement up to dry it out and clean it.
party on Wayne !
carpenter in transition
A very interesting point. Would it influence you at all that the method I described is exactly the method described in the Taunton ?Fine Woodworking compilation "Shop Solutions?"
Why are you putting a ply floor over concrete? Feel. warmth? How deep is the floor from the outside grade? and where are you doing this warm/cold place? what kind of wall finish? and floor finish?
My thoughts if the wall is insulated to the bottom and your grade to basement floor level is 5-6 feet the slab should not need much insulation. The best way to insulate a concrete basement is from the outside with rigid foam R 10 is good, from your rim joists to 2 feet below grade then use a two foot piece hoizontal to the underside of the foam with a slight angle down and away from basement. Protect with what ever so you don't beat it up back filling. Then your out side wall is a warm wall so moisture should not be a problem from condensation. Then you could use wood or steel 2x2s to apply drywall, may have to run BX?
I have heard good things OSB with the pads from plastic but never have used them but they would be warm to walk on and have a little give.
Float your walls! as earlier poster said toilet overflow etc. so if you hang your wall from the top with some water proof material under studs so wood or metal don't touch concrete. The thicker the better like a bunch of left over composite decking. Leave your drywall as high as possible at the bottom edge, so it can't act as a wick! finish floor but try to keep a gap between floor and wall, wide base boards hide gap. Gives a place a spill to go.
now that said I pulled a wall down in a condo reno the lower suite has a 3 foot exposed concrete wall 10 inches thick, 2x4 pony wall above built in 78 The wall behind the kitchen cabinets was furred out with a 2x2 and 1/2 rock, with poly against the concrete and a thin piece of insulation. I thought I would find a mold hole. Well no mold and no wood rot even below a window with a sink in front of it. Not to forget this is Canada were -40 winters happen, thank god not here yet!!!
Good luck
There's a number of reasons to construct a floor atop a cement slab.
Warmth is a big one. Even a 60 degree floor will make your feet ache ... look at all the mats used by assembly line workers.
"Feel" is another; it seems we prefer the floor to have some resilience. If nothing else, it's easier on things we drop.
There's the matter of the differing slopes and cracks in most basement floors. Sleepers let you bridge gaps and even things out. If things were really bad, shims would be used.
It's a lot easier to attach carpet, or other floor covering, if you have a good base .... and easier to change it later.
Finally, the gaps left give moisture a place to drain away. Another poster spoke of broken pipes, etc ... well, that's nothing compared to the moisture that comes up through a slab, or through a wall, and evaporates before it can make a wet spot. Just tape a piece of tin foil or plastic on the wall if you doubt me. Not only does this moisture need a place to go, it will play havoc with any paint / sealer / carpet / panelling that is applied to it. Sleepers on the floor, and hat channel on the walls, keep this from being a problem.
As for the walls, you need more space than a 2x2 will give you if you're going to run electrical. Code wants 1-5/8" minimum between your cable and the wall; using hat channel gives you that space. It also makes setting boxes easier.
Andy Engel wrote a good article on finishing basements in FHB a few years ago.
Basically, he glues rigid insulation to the foundation walls, lays rigid insulation on the floor, covered by 2 overlapping layers of ply screwed into the concrete, and frames the walls on top of the floor.
I've done several basements using similar techniques on the walls. I haven't done the floor system, mainly because the last couple of basements I've done didn't have a lot of head room.
Part of the idea behind using the rigid foam is that it won't retain moisture, which causes dampness and mold.
I also usually frame basement walls with steel studs- partly because they're much lighter to carry into a basement that generally has limited access, and also because they won't absorb moisture.
That's the preferred wall method around here also. I too have not tried the floor system, but it seems logical.
I just went thru this in the Basement Wall Framing thread. I'm doing my parents' basement over. Did it 20 years ago, and now going to do it right. Doing it basically the same way Andy did it. I also looked at Mike Guertin and Rick Arnold's article a few years ago and Mike said that Building Science says not to use metal studs. I'm not real fond of them anyway. And I'm considerably younger than you are, so I don't mind carrying the wood. (Chuckling as I type.)Gluing the boards up: What did you use? I have a Great Stuff gun, but HD doesn't have the cans anymore, so I might go with the Hilti. Buy a case and he'll throw in the gun. But which foam to use?Also considering Tiger Foam or similar to seal the box beam. More $$ than insulating board, but less cutting and fitting. Assume it will be quicker.New insulating techniques, making new stairs and railing, laying pre-finished hardwood floor. Lots of new-to-me tasks to learn on this. I'm actually looking forward to this.Hey, when you movin'? Looking forward to it?Glenn
If one builds the floor up, either the Engler method or sleepers and foam as someone mentioned, how are you dealing with the then shortened last step from existing stairs to now raised floor?
Are those of you who are raising the floor, doing the job on a permit? If so is the inspector not having an issue with this? This is one of many issues I've been trying to figure out before I start my basement.
Tashler , you mentioned the Great Stuff Pro. I also bought the gun at HD earlier this year nad was disppointed to see that they've stopped carrying the Great Stuff Foam canisters. At my HD the Hilti foam cans are like twice as much ($20). anyone find a place to buy the great stuff canisters without paying a fortune for shipping?
Okay, not in order, but here goes:Found the Great Stuff for the gun at Amazon. Hilti has slightly bigger cans, and someone told me Hilti's actually performs better. Plus i can get the gun for free. But it will most likely take me quite a while to use a whole case.Stairs? I replaced the original basement stairs 20 years ago with, well, basement stairs that I built. This time I am building a set to be nicely finished. Hadn't thought of the concern you brought up but now I guess I will take out the old stairs, insulate and plywood the floor, then build new stairs. I need to decide if I want to use 2 layers of 1/2" ply or perhaps 1 layer of 3/4. And I've never used Tapcons, which I guess is how I should secure the ply down.Permit? Got one 20 years ago when I didn't know as much. Parents figured it was the safest way to go and didn't want to do anything wrong. This time, screw 'em. Last time the guy never showed to inspect. When my mother called they said he had been there. BS. Fat little turd couldn't bend down to see in those little windows and never went inside. Lyin' SOB never showed. When I built their deck several years later, same deal. Dad is raking leaves in front all morning. 12:30 he decides to go in to eat. Calls fat little turds office. Tells him he was there around 11:00. Everything looked fine.Not worth the phone call. If I was doing this for a customer, I make the call.
Glenn
Glenn-
I used a construction adhesive meant for foamboard to glue the insulation; I think its water-base so it doesn't eat the foam.
I think ( but I'm not sure) the reasoning behind not using steel studs is because they telegraph any cold spots. But with the foamboard creating a solid insulating and vapor barrier behind the studs, I don't think it's all that important. And they sure are a lot more convenient for us old guys to carry any distance <G>
It looks like we'll be moving up either Jan. or Feb. DW will be starting as the 1/2 time minister, not as just pulpit supply like she's been doing the past 1-1/2 years, in Jan. I'll be going with her to church starting then. We still have to sell our house in South Plainfield, but I have a few projects I need to finish so we can get a good price for it, especially in this market.
BTW, do you know of any garage or shops that might rent space? I'm going to need someplace to keep my equipment, since for tax exemption reasons, I can no longer run my business form my home.
I don't know of any off hand, but I've not had a reason to check either.How much space, how much money, how close, and working or just storage?Let me know and I'll try and check around.Glenn
I'm going to need at least a 1 car garage, but probably not until we sell down here. Until then, I can keep my shop here.
I've also thought about buying some kind of small building I can set up shop in, since we'll have the $ from selling this place. Hopefully fairly close up there.
I've also thought about buying a tralier to store my equipment in, but since DW recently told me that there's no on the street overnight parking up there, I'd still have to find someplace to park it.
I gotta do something, I'm just not sure what yet. LOL
I like the 2'x8' XPS foam panels made with rabbets for 1x3 furring to fit flush. Both Owens Corning and Dow make these products.
http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/wallmate.htm
Basements already have exterior walls, why waste the resources framing another wall. XPS provides the insulation you need, eliminates the need for an additional vapor barrier and avoids thermal bridging of framing (especially metal studs) and keeps furring and drywall away from moist conditions (no mold or decay).
More later, if you want to discuss it.
How do you put electric in these walls? Like boxes? Also the 1x3 fur strip I assume is attached to the concrete wall via concrete screws? Was that a picture of a job you did?If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
The electrician just used shallow boxes on the outside walls. I ran the furring horizontally to make electrical routing easier. The electrician just cut his wire into the foam at outlet height and I backfilled with spray foam.That pic is one of the basements I have done this way. I have a good Bosch rotary hammer drill and use tapcons. I rip my own 1x3's out of 3/4 plywood. Just as cheap as 1x3 lumber and much straighter (also no splitting).
Building Science spells out in detail the correct way to finish a basement. Read these documents on their website:
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems/attachment_download/file
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0509c-renovating-existing-basements/attachment_download/file
Lots of good stuff here with all the building details and explanation of "why" that you need.
Billy
Edited 12/13/2008 9:51 pm ET by Billy
in regards to cold basement floors, why would someone go through all the work of laying foam and fastening not one, but two layers of plywood, when you could much more easily thinset Schluter membrane to the slab and go with ceramic. The Iso membrane wont telegraph cracks (reportedly) and you could always lay NuHeat or Warm Floor floor warmers down before your finish floor?
THey make mock hardwood ceramic tiles now, so you can get whatever look you want and never worry about moisture.
Of course a catastrophic building failure could ruin your flooring, but you can always tile on tile, much better than raising the floor 2 1/2 inches off the get go.....Dan Lynn, Dan Lynn Construction, Joliet, IL
QUOTES TO LIVE BY: 'The bitterness of poor quality lasts far longer than the sweet taste of a low price....' 'Anything worth doing is worth doing well' "If it was easy......ANYBODY could do it"
A couple of reasons -- first, the floor with foam will be warmer than the tile floor with Ditra. This is not only easier on the feet but it prevents the cool floor from being a condensing surface for moisture. Second, the foam is there as a vapor retarder -- it allows the floor to dry slowly without allowing too much moisture through at once.
Billy
Edited 12/14/2008 5:02 pm ET by Billy
floor warming systems provide better warmth than faom without raising the floor, right?
and the Schluter is impermeable, so its a vapor retarder as well.....or am i off on that one?Dan Lynn, Dan Lynn Construction, Joliet, IL
QUOTES TO LIVE BY: 'The bitterness of poor quality lasts far longer than the sweet taste of a low price....' 'Anything worth doing is worth doing well' "If it was easy......ANYBODY could do it"
I my basement I have Ditra and Nuheat mat and tile in the family portion and foam, plywood and carpet in the bedroom portion.The insulation and Ditra + heat mat serve different purposes, but both can provide benefits in a basement.And the foam is a lot cheaper to install and it doesn't require electricity...Billy
Edited 12/15/2008 12:28 pm ET by Billy