Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 11, 2003 08:27am | #1

   Interesting question.

   Hope this becomes an interesting discussion

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   ANDYSZ2 | Dec 11, 2003 03:17pm | #2

   What is the barn going to be used for; horse, pig farm implements storing hay etc.?

   ANDYSZ2

   I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.

1. 
   Rockbeare | Dec 11, 2003 05:11pm | #5

   Thanks for the interest, Andy.  The clients want to have the shape of a 'traditional' barn to fit in with the farms around.  This means a gambrel roof. The first floor will be garage and workshop with the upper floor being living space.  The longer sides will face North and South so good potential for solar.  My initial sketch using 30' wide and 40' long with a 10' first floor gives about 22' height from the upper floor to the peak and look a tad spindly so, before I get a ladder and measure local barns I wondered if there was a traditional formula for the proportions.

   Rockbeare

   Edited 12/11/2003 10:01:26 AM ET by Rockbeare

1. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 11, 2003 05:47pm | #7

    My initial sketch using 30' wide and 40' long with a 10' first floor gives about 22' height from the upper floor to the peak...

   I think you need to consider that barns are (nearly) always two stories below the roof - - try sketching the 30X40 (which just happens to be close to 33X44' size of my barn,  built in 1916,  after the 60X40 burned) with 16' to the eaves - - that way they will have room for the chickens up in the trusses ;>) 

2. 
   BossHog | Dec 11, 2003 06:06pm | #9

   I did a gambrel "Barn" for my Brother. There's a thread here and there's a picture in it.

   It's 26X40, with a 10' wide lean-to built onto it as a patio. Not really a barn exactly, but sort of close to one. Might give you an idea or 2 that you could use.The Presidency is not merely an administrative office. That’s the least of it...It is preeminently a place of moral leadership. [Franklin Delano Roosevelt]

1. 
   Rockbeare | Dec 11, 2003 06:20pm | #10

   A lot better looking than your decription IMHO!  How did you get the proportions?

   Rockbeare

   (Did you read the latest book on FDR by Conrad Black?)

1. 
   BossHog | Dec 11, 2003 06:41pm | #11

   The proportions weren't really something they put a lot of thought into. They fit the size to their budget and what would fit on their lot.

   This is what their attic truss looks like:

   View Image

   Never read anything about FDR. I just picked up the quote off the internet.

   No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal live we'll ever see on this earth." [Ronald Reagan]

   
2. 
   csnow | Dec 11, 2003 07:19pm | #12

   The values of the ratios 1, 2/1, 3/2, 5/3, 8/5, 13/8 approach the value of the Golden Section.

   Facade proportions generally "look right" when when elements relate in these ratios.

3. 
   Rockbeare | Dec 11, 2003 07:36pm | #13

   Great!  I think that this is what I was stumbling towards.  My feeling is that we develop 'an eye' for what looks right, and Boss Hog's truss drawing may be one example, which your ratios capture.

   At the suggestion of the timber framer I'm working with, I also asked this question on the Timber Framers Guild website [www.tfguild.org] and have just been pointed towards the principles that Palladio developed, e.g., (length + width) divided by 2 = height.

   Thanks to you and Boss Hog (how're we doing for 'interest', Piffin?

   Rockbeare

4. 
   BossHog | Dec 11, 2003 09:30pm | #17

   "...the principles that Palladio developed, e.g., (length + width) divided by 2 = height...."

   Are you sure that's the formula? Sounds wrong to me.

   The only old barn I know the dimensions of is my parent's. It's 60' by 80. According to that formula it should be 70' tall. In reality it's only 30' tall. (Give or take a bit)

   I may be out there tonight and be able to take a shot or 2.If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose

5. 
   skids | Dec 11, 2003 11:51pm | #18

   I was thinking the same thing myself, I agree with previous poster as to two stories under gambrel roof, meaning that any gambrel "barn" is a 3 story structure. but with a typical 40'x60' footprint, height should be 50' and I think thats just a little too tall. should be more like 35'-38' IMHO. 12'-15' bot, 10' second, 13' top.

6. 
   GregGibson | Dec 11, 2003 08:06pm | #14

   What has become our idea of a typical, traditional barn derived, I think, from plans published and widely circulated by the USDA back in the 1930's and 1940's.  USDA gave tremendous assistance to farmers back then with improvements to their property.

   I can't lay my hands on the file right now, but I've got some old plans somewhere.  The proportions and dimensions they developed became what we consider to be " traditional " because so many of them were built.  My 30 x 30 barn at the farm was built by my Dad and his brothers in 1945 from the same USDA plans that 10 other barns in the county were built from. 

   The Federal publications center in Boulder CO probably has the pland available, usually their stuff costs very little, or just the postage.

   Greg.

7. 
   Rockbeare | Dec 12, 2003 12:00am | #19

   Boss Hog makes a good point and I should've said that Palladio was talking about 'rooms'.  However, P. also suggests ratios as you did but his seem to be reversed to yours.  The website is http://www.aboutscotland.com/harmony/harmony.html.

   Would your ratios translate as, say, 2/1 giving a width of 20' and a height of 10', 3/2 = 30' wide by 20' high, etc?

   Rockbeare

8. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 11, 2003 08:43pm | #16

   now we are getting into sematics - - the garage that BH linked to doesn't remind me of a barn at all - - looks like a garage with a gambrel roof - (and not unpleasant) - - barns have always been about volume,  without the height,  it looks like a 20th century building - interesting that using the formula from the timber framers you get 15'+20'=35' ... 35'/2=17.5' ... right in the ballpark for barns - -

3. 
   UncleDunc | Dec 11, 2003 08:27pm | #15

   >> ... so, before I get a ladder and measure local barns ...

   There's a lot of good information in this thread about deducing measurements from photographs. You can probably find more barn pictures in an hour than you can drive to in a week. You may even be able to get your clients to tell you which ones they like best.

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=37179.1

1. 
   Rockbeare | Dec 12, 2003 12:18am | #20

   Another excellent idea because the thread you mention shows several examples of "how to" and post 37179.19 also mentions the "Golden Rule/Section".

   Rockbeare

3. 
   BossHog | Dec 11, 2003 03:26pm | #3

   There have got to be dozens of different kinds of barns. Some had peaked roofs, some gambrel, polynesian, etc.

   I don't see how there could be a certain set of criteria for a barn that would cover all kinds.

   97.4% of people believe you can come up with statistics to prove anything.

4. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 11, 2003 05:09pm | #4

   Barns are local/regional architecture,  I don't think it is possible to generalize across space/time - - I will offer that here in the midwest (IN),  the common barns of the late 19th century are 60'X40' and 16' to the plate - 5 bents,  timber framed with 8"X8" native hewn beams - often built into a hill so there are ground entrances on two levels - but there is lots of variation,  including round structures,  hexagonal structures,  octagonal structures,  log structures,  stick framed (mostly 20th century)- lots of different sizes...

   There is a wonderful book 'The Barn' by Arthur&Whitney that I would recommend - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0883654059/qid=1071151413/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6008443-0329526?v=glance&s=books#product-details though it is addresses mostly north east US and south east Canadian structures - histories and pictures of remarkable structures -

1. 
   Rockbeare | Dec 11, 2003 05:30pm | #6

   Thanks for the reply, David.  I have the Arthur and Witney book and, yes, it's excellent; the frame diagrams at the back will be my 'Plan B' if there's no traditional formula ((a timber framer gave me a copy of the "Golden Section/Divine Proportion" but either my math skills are too weak or I'm not philosophical enough - or both - but I don't see how it can be applied...)

   Another great catalogue of barns is Vlach's "Barns" published by Norton & the Library of Congress which comes with a CD of all the photos used in the book (these things could end up matching tools for cost and distraction!) but, while great for designing, it has no dimensions.

   Rockbeare

1. 
   jc21 | Dec 11, 2003 06:01pm | #8

   Check your library for a copy of Roof Framing by H.H. Siegle, published by Sterling. Excellent old book imho, now out of print. There's a section on gambrel roofs and their proportions- might be of some help. Amazon has a couple used copies for sale.

5. 
   keithjmckinley | Jul 25, 2019 08:15pm | #21

   I have found the best ratio for a New England style barn is 1:1.35. I pick my width and multiply by 1.35 for the length. Getting the proper plate height from the sill is also important. A 30x40 barn would typically be 12’ in height. I use 10 ‘ for barns around 16x22 and on small shed style barn , 8’