I’m looking at doing a simplified arts & crafts trim around windows and doors. Just plain boards, with the top coming forward over the side trim a little (1/8″ or 1/4″??) to create a slight reveal. The thing that’s stumping me is I also want the top to extend out beyond the side trim, just a little. But how much? I saw a photo of one and the lady told me it was a 1 inch extension, but it sure didn’t look that much.
I cannot find this dimension anywhere, although Susanka and her crowd have their books full of this simple trim. They give the trim board dimensions, but not this.
Any ideas? Or can you steer me to a place to look?
Thanks.
Replies
I suggest you experiment with some scrap -
1" is too much IMO - try 5/8" and 3/8" to start -
often A-C trim has the crown thicker than the casing -
other styles have a 3/8" X ~1" stick that lays across the top of the casing and the crown installed above that - this makes up for any irregularity in the lay of the casing and fit of the frame -
Check out Stickley's 'Craftsman Houses' for lots of details (if not a lot of measured drawings)
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=973646246&searchurl=an%3Dstickley%26kn%3Dgustav%2Bcraftsman%2Bhomes%26x%3D62%26y%3D10
You're a treasure! Just ordered that Stickley book, used, for less than 4 bucks from a dealer right down the road aways here. Good to see i'm not off base thinking that 1" is too much. Any reason for working in eighths of an inch, when you suggested 5/8 or 3/8? Yes, that top piece needs to be thicker than the side pieces; i definitely see that.Also ran across Robert Lang's book of measured shop drawings for architectual & furniture designs, A/C. Ordered that. I just designed a coffee table and I guessed at the details. Had one shop drawing to go by but then I changed things a bit. So, I can learn some more here before that coffee table gets started, too.Thanks.
I think that Paul Duchscherer's books are excellent -- lots of detailed photographs of period work to give you ideas.
I have The Bungalow and Inside the Bungalow; there are several others, as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Bungalow-Americas-Crafts-Interior/dp/067087373X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-9668415-5030314?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190483881&sr=1-1
Any reason for working in eighths of an inch, when you suggested 5/8 or 3/8?
just the observation over the years that 1/4"-1/2"-3/4" dimensions do not please my eye (generally)
I've done quite a bit of work on old furniture and pre-Victorian trim - these items seldom (never) use 3/4" material - always 7/8" or 15/16" - - similarly with the thinner thicknesses -
I remember several years ago FHB had an article on a Colonial porch recreation - the execution was flawless, proportions appropriate, and details admirable - but I couldn't get past the photo of the finished project - something was wrong -
I finally figured it out - they had used modern materials with modern dimensions - 3/4" thicknesses, 3 1/4" wide '4 inch' materials, etc - and it affected the finished product to the point I could tell - it just appeared too 'delicate' for want of a better word -
dunno - 3/8" - 5/8" - 7/8" work better for my eye -
"there's enough for everyone"
Very interesting. I've been trying to find anything in my books similar to that. Could be you have a more refined eye for detail than most folks do. I am gonna experiment with those dimensions tomorrow too and see if I can pick up on any difference. Could be something you acquire over time from working with what you've been working with. Dunno.
Very interesting. I've been trying to find anything in my books similar to that.
I would argue that the difference David is seeing has more to do with proportion and less to do with absolute measurement.
Victorian houses (at least the nicer ones) often had 10-foot or higher ceilings, and the doors and windows were proportioned to fit these larger rooms. In turn, the trim had to be proportionately larger to fit the doors and windows, as well as all the other details (stair balusters, exterior trim elements, etc.).
When people try to use a small-scale trim element on a large-scale house, it just doesn't "fit" -- and people like David with a sensitive eye pick up on it. Proportion is hugely important in succesful design -- the Greeks studied it to the point that every element was algebraically specified in dimension. (See the attachment below to get an idea; all dimensions are expressed as a function of the column diameter, D.)
Well, that Ionic stuff does just boggle my mind. I no sooner got finished with dimensioning a coffee table design, than I picked up a recent Fine Woodworking pub. on furniture only to learn I was supposed to have used some sort of "system" for my proportions. Nos, I'm trying to examine my dimensions to see if I can find a mathematical relationship for what I intuitively designed! So far no luck. Maybe with this table i'm destined to be one of those people who "don't know nuthin' about art, but I know what I like."
Is this kind of what you're talking about (except not angling the sides of the head casing)?
The picture shows a 5/4x6 head casing over 1x5 sides. The apron is 1x4, and the stool is 5/4 thick.
You don't have a whole lot of choices regarding stock thickness, so that part is pretty easy. 5/4 for the heads and 1x stock everywhere else is the norm (if you're going for a thicker head casing).
As far as the lateral overhang (shoulder), use your eye a bit. I think the picture shows about a 3/4" shoulder. My gut reaction is that 1/4" would be too slight; I'd try 1/2" at a minimum.
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That's a picture of it! Like you said, no angles on the sides. Thanks, I printed your message out. Gotta pull some pieces out of the pile in the shop and expeiment. I'll look at the Paul D. books, too.
MtnBoy,
Here's a picture of what I've been setting in my house. The paint grade is a mixture of MDF and Popular for the Header and Casing. I use 1/4-inch reveals between the casing and header. The top-cap detail has a 1/2-inch overhang on each side. After about half the header casing was was cut and installed, I decided that 1/4-inch wasn't enough. But it was too late. I'm bummed cause I even did mock ups, and both my wife and I agreed it looked good. Oh well... c'est la vie. The good news is that the entry way is going to be cherry and I haven't cut that yet. It'll be different enough and far enough away from the paint trim that it should be fine.
I like it. Here's a good thing for you and the wife to obsess over, though: once you switch to the cherry, the proportions that look best might shift a little on you. So, you mock up all the possibilities and then choose?? Just a little amusement for a saturday afternoon.
I hear you about that MtnBoy! We will be doing mock ups today with the cherry. I finally got the header pieces milled into nice S4S. I ended up buying the leg casing premilled, it just turned out to be too much work to joint all those 7 plus foot boards! Good luck with your designs.
Jointerman,
Here's a more traditional execution of the same look you're using. Side casings are 1x5; the head is assembled with a (solid) 2x3 ogee cap, 1x6, and 7/16" x 1-1/4" bullnose fillet. The ends of the fillet extend 1/2" past the end of the 1x6, which provides a symmetrical visual return. I also rout the bullnose onto the ends of the fillet as opposed to just chopping them square.
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That is a gorgeous piece of work.
head casing/bullnose fillet
thanks for the vocabulary lesson - I couldn't think of what to call it and the one architectural details book within reach didn't have it either -
would you consider this execution to be more Victorian than A-C?
"there's enough for everyone"
would you consider this execution to be more Victorian than A-C?
The door trim? Since the Arts & Crafts and/or Craftsman styles of design seem to focus on rectilinear shapes, I suppose the door trim could be more typically described as Victorian. However, the geometry and design elements (cyma recta, fillet) go back to the ancient Greeks, so it's not exclusively "Victorian", either, of course. Rather than "Victorian", I'd probably just use the term "classical".
The combination of the four-panel door and the classical door trim is something that I see frequently in 1910s-era Craftsman houses in the Seattle area (especially the more expensive ones). Sometimes, the classical trim was used in the formal rooms (entry, living room, dining room), and a simpler trim schedule was used in the rest of the house.
Ragnar,I would suggest the principle difference between Craftsman use of the Classical "cabinet head" casing and the Victorian use of this stlye is in the size and shape, and material and finish of the crown used.The Victorians tended to use larger crown often painted, the Craftsman--smaller crown (often a simple cove) in stained oak or Doug. fir.On proportion, modern 1x can be used with back-banding to add mass. & depth.Here are a few pics showing some of these differences...The first pic is more Victorian...the others all in Craftsman homes (the last photo is of trim in a 4-square with lots of craftsman details, but built-up casing more typical of Victorian homes, but then with wood grain painted on over poplar to look like the oak more typical of the Craftsman home...multiple personalities.
Basswood,
Thanks for the pictures. Just to be clear, are the first three photos new work, and the last one original work? In the new work, did you just replicate the exact geometry of the original work and use new materials and different species?
One thing I've noticed over the years is that there is a lot of regional variation both in terms of popular definitions and in dominant styles. My limited exposure to period architecture outside the west coast suggests to me that other parts of the country held on to traditional designs longer than builders on the west coast.
For example, if I were to see the the "hand grained window" out in Seattle, I would guess that it came from an 1890s house (which is about two decades before the Craftsman movement really materialized). There are several reasons for this assessment: first, the window has a higher aspect ratio than was typically used in Craftsman designs; second, the rich detailing of the profile is a significant departure from the typically "cleaner", simpler, rectilinear Craftsman designs; third, the faux graining you mentioned and the beaded stop are something I've yet to see in Craftsman houses in Seattle (but have seen in Victorian era homes). The only thing that surprises me a bit in the photo is the 3-lite top sash -- that is a detail that is, in my localized experience, more common in Craftsman era homes.
Do you happen to have a photo of the "smaller crown (often a simple cove)" head casing you mentioned in Craftsman homes?
Thanks again for the photos.
Edited 9/23/2007 2:07 pm ET by Ragnar17
--"Just to be clear, are the first three photos new work, and the last one original work? In the new work, did you just replicate the exact geometry of the original work and use new materials and different species?"Bingo.The first 3 are new & last photo original.The first pic. is just me goofing around with leftover materials at my house.The second pic has the original millwork in the background of the photo and the new stuff is a close match.The third photo is of a reproduction I did in a Craftsman home similar to the one pictured here (like the 3 upper lites, the stair balusters are in 3's). One of the photos here shows another of my reproductions, with the original in the background.
Basswood,
Thanks for the photos of the Shepart house -- I really liked the way the balusters were clustered in threes.
So what year was the Shepart house built? And do you know what year the house was built that featured the "hand grained window"?
I don't know the year either of those houses was built...I will see if I can find out.The house with the hand-grained trim does seem like a creative anachronism...I think the most of the details are original, but is either a Victorian with Craftsman details ahead of its' time or a Craftsman with a Victorian hangover--either way it is interesting.Speaking of things anachronistic, I bid an A&C styled monster today (35 doors and 49 windows). One odd twist--the windows will have a craftsman head sans sill and apron (mitered at the window bottom)...I will try to talk them out of that.
One odd twist--the windows will have a craftsman head sans sill and apron (mitered at the window bottom)...I will try to talk them out of that.
I hope you do manage to talk them out of that -- I agree with you that the windows look much better with a stool. These days, many people have never even seem, so they don't know what they're missing, I guess.
Let me know what you find out regarding those home dates.
Thanks,
Ragnar
Ragnar,On that home with the Victorian/Craftsman hybrid. It also had chunky square tapered columns on short, stout knee walls--between the entry and the dining room (typical of Craftsman).The columns pictured here are original, but the woodgraining had been painted over and the other millwork removed to allow the wall to be closed in with cheesy 80's paneling (rental). I restored to to the original profile...A&C with Victorian embelishment.BTW the painted on grain was so convinving in this house that the HO asked if the wood could be refinished...I had to tell them that what they thought was oak would turn into a smudged mess if anyone got near it with a refinishing solvent.I don't have an original photo of an original A&C with a simple cove, but here is something I did with that in mind:
Ragnar, Nice work there. Just finishing a home with that detail used as the first floor trim except all in oak. Width of side casing out to out + 1" for the parting bead (makes a 1/2 overhang) Crown length worked out to side casing out to out + 3" Second floor trim is done using 2 parting beads , one replaces the crown molding at the top of the head casing but remains only at the +1" overhang length.edited for typo.
Thanks Ragnar
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 9/23/2007 10:16 am by dovetail97128
Width of side casing out to out + 1" for the parting bead (makes a 1/4 overhang)
Wouldn't that make a 1/2" at each end?
I'd be interested in seeing pictures of the oak -- can you post some? I'm sure the oak would look real nice. Most of my work is in CMG fir (below).
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Ragnar---------- if dovetail doesn't have pictures in oak-- I think i can get you some from the friend with the house in salem--again- i am sure the first house had it---- pretty sure the current house has it as well.
stephen
Morning Stephen,I'd be interested in seeing those photos of the Salem house if you run across them.Best,
Steve
I will call my friend and see if he can Email me some pictures---he was best man at my wedding years ago- i presume we are still on speaking terms, LOL.
BTW--marathon here very shortly-- don't know If I will be here for the marathon--or if I will be in Rochester for the McQuaid XC meet.
stephen
FatRoman,
just got off the phone with my friend-------- he will try to email 'em to me tommorrow or so---pictures of a window,a door, built in china cabinets etc.
I am not sure what format they will arrive in and if I will be able to finagle them up onto this web site--might have to forward them directly to you. you are clearly more computer adept than I--so you can do whatever you want with them.
stephen
Hey Stephen,That's fine, send them along to me and I can post them for you.I forgot about the Akron marathon. If you are in town, you should post some race pictures to the Stephen's Neighborhood thread!Best,
Steve
"If you are in town, you should post some race pictures to the Stephen's Neighborhood thread"
Steve, where is that thread located?
Allen
Hi Allen,
Stephen's Neighborhood #83864.1
Best,
Steve
Thanks, Steve. Sometimes if there's a hundred messages already posted in a thread, I'll not try to "catch up."
But this was well worth using my lunch break to check out.
Allen
Yeah, that was a fun thread, wasn't it. I've been meaning to do something similar here. Lots of 18th Century townhomes on one side of town, bungalows, four squares, and such on the other. Makes for some interesting architecture.
same thinking here I just now found this thread - don't know how I missed it before now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I milled all of the trim for an additon on our 1920's Craftsmas Bungalow from swamp Cyprus.The sill us 1-1/4" X 5-1/2"
The legs and apron are 13/16" X 4-1/2"
The header is 13/16" X 7-1/4"
The header fillet is 5/8" X 1-1/4" bullnose (5/16" radius)
The stop bead is 3/8" X 3-1/16" bullnose (3/16" radius)Here is a how to link:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79773.350Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Wow! Some precision work there. And the sixteenths are by design!! Oh, lord.Thanks. And, uh, some of us would fight alligators to get swamp cypress.
got some pictures from my friend--let's see If i can get them posted without the assistance of my son---they are in a format I haven't fooled with before.
trim is a little simpler than I remember it
my apologies for the size of those pictures.
i did not take them-----.
I am pretty good at resizing pictures I take with my camera( I just shrink them down to 28%)--- I have no scale to compare these against.
sorry again,
Stephen
Thanks Stephen!
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Edited 9/27/2007 4:29 pm ET by FatRoman
Beautiful built-ins! I'm guessing c.1910?
I would expect the house is more "classical revival" than "arts & crafts." Yes?
Your photo files were big mainly because they were in "bitmap" format. JPEG or ".jpg" format compresses the files.
Allen
Did anyone notice the built-up perimeter on the pocket door? I don't think I've seen that before.
I have seen that several times, maybe a regional thing?
Doug
Like I said earlier, those "regional things" are pretty common! ;)
What's the purpose of that built up perimeter? I can see it acting as an astragal where the doors meet up, but I don't see much point in it being at the top, bottom, and outboard edges. Any guesses?
I really don't have any idea.
My BIL has a federal house, oldest house in Linn Co. Iowa. It has walnut pocket doors and they had that band around them. Saying that there is some question as to how old that pocket door really is.
I've seen it in several oak (most common wood used around here - late Vic. through A&C, Art Deco........) doors as well so I know its not something indicative to one particular period.
I don't know that I could come up with a good guess as to why the doors have this banding - I got nothing?
Doug
doors/banding -
I'll take a guess -
I'm sitting 3' from a similar pocket door arrangement/trimmed opening - (difference being the doors are doubled up and only roll one way - trim is near identical oak)
anyway - it appears to me the banding increases the thickness of the doors at the perimeter - this would allow a tight(er) fit to the trim (whaddu call that piece of trim?) with the door in the open or shut position while minimizing interference while in the act of opening/closing -
in my case, the doors are not banded and are not perfectly planar - so there is interference at a couple of points with the resultant scrapes in the door finish - this is particularly pronounced seasonally as the room beyond the door is heated less in the winter - the door assembly can get quite a pronounced bow in it mid winter -
"there's enough for everyone"
David,
I was thinking along the same lines. The banding isn't a decorative piece of trim is my reasoning, rather it served a true function. Given the drafty nature of those old houses perhaps it was to help provide a better seal against cold drafts flowing out of the pocket , or passing around the door as you suggest."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
just making the assembly mouse proof would be a real plus - the improved cosmetics would be something a 'craftsman' would think of - -
"there's enough for everyone"
Ragnar17- i have seen virtually the same trim in a older farm house in Salem, Ohio.
house is from the 1910's i think.
first floor trim was white oak---- i think the second floor was painted---probably a lesser species.( two friends owned the house---actually I think the next house they bought and currently live in has the same thing)
must have been a hugely popular style in lots of nationally distributed pattern books????
I remember the first time I saw it--that little bead between the head casing and the side casings--really rocked me--totally captivated me. I had never seen that detail before that time. most of the AC work I had seen at that time was from the 1920's-much simpler--approx. 4" wide casing with a corner mold around the edges.
i have since found more of the work with that bead--in slightly older neighborhoods(1910's)---so I am inclined to think it is more of a 1910's time frame detail-than one geographically originated.
stephen
i have since found more of the work with that bead--in slightly older neighborhoods(1910's)---so I am inclined to think it is more of a 1910's time frame detail-than one geographically originated.
Steven,
I'm sure you're right about that -- the fillet is a very widely used detail.
What I was trying to say was that the combination of the 4-panel Craftsman door with the traditional (cyma recta cap and fillet) head casing may be less common. I know it was common in Seattle in the 1908-1912 time period, but I have no idea whether it was popular in other parts of the country as well.
By the way, I would love to see some pictures of that oak trim, too -- could you email them to me, as well? (No need to reduce them or anything like that.)
Edited 9/24/2007 12:54 am ET by Ragnar17
My friend will send me the pictures-hopefully today----and we will see If I can get them posted here.
friend also points out---that I saw that detail 30 years ago( I have known him that long)-in his parents house( also 1910's)-- house has been in the family all that time , I think.
Irrelevant trivia---house has some small partial pictures of it on page 79 of the July FHB.
Stephen
Ragnar,It looks beautiful. I did look at trim like that, it would have been much much easier to do, since the fancier profiles like you have are available pre-milled. I was after something with a simpler design. I did consider making the fillets on the header proud of the header as you did, but for some reason, I just didn't. I do like it though.
Nice!!Very similar to my house.Plinth blocks at bottom?Mclaren
Mclaren:
Yes, plinths, too: 94907.24
Sketchup to the rescue! Two minutes for this little study.
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Top casing member is a 5/4 x 6 (actual 1 x 5.5), and it's "ears" are 3/4".
The 5/4 stool matches the head with its ears, and it projects 1" past the side casing parts, which are 1x4s (actually .75 x 3.5).
With the model done, I can change anything I like to see different, but right now, it looks pretty good.
Well, you're pretty good with SketchUp. I've been meaning to learn it, but I still use pencil and paper.It looks perfect that way, but what happens when you look at it straight-on? Still the right proportions?I'm gonna have to cut wood before long to play with this myself. I think this is right, though.Thank you, sir.
Straight on? Yessir!
Now start cutting.
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Gene,
For some reason, the apron looks a little long on the left side, particularly in the front-on view. Is it some sort of optical illusion?
I dunno. Didn't save the file in Sketchup. Might be an opt ill.
Didn't save the file?!? Tsk tsk tsk. ;)
Just want to tell everybody how much I've enjoyed this thread. The photos are enough to make a grown man cry!And especially to you guys who recommended R. Lang's Shop Drawings for Craftsman Interiors. I just now got it in the mail. I'm happy for a long time studying this.And Gene Davis: the Sketchup you did was great. The Lang book shows the window trim I'm gonna use and it only has that head trim's "ears" extending 1/4 inch beyond the side trim! You had sketched it at 3/4" and I'm liking the in-between I mocked up of 1/2 inch. Interesting. Got one more book coming.
Well, here I am late to the party again, what, no food left? :(
Anyway thought I'd throw in my 2cents worth,
The original trim "style" refered to is what I call "Butt and Pass" , self explanatory in its name. The "pass" proportion at the head is typically 3/4" , matching the stool "pass" proportion. The simple Butt and Pass style is what I would call a colonial style trim, dating from say the 1700's to the present. The changes or embellishments in the style were reflective of the wealth of the home owner or the particular room or the floor (1st vs. 2nd floors or public vs. private rooms, with the former being more ornate).
Ragnars post #14 is showing what I believe is "Federalist" style trim,
The ca. 1910 pics show what I would call "Late Victorian" , simple but more "ornate" than the original colonial style. Some of the simple victorian styles will have stops that have a bead on the front edge that then becomes part of the side casing detail, but may not have the crown molding at the top, again reflecting the owners wealth or just the rooms private vs. public use.
just my 2a.m.'s 2 cents worth
Geoff
Can I wait till tomorrow after the neighbors wake up, maybe get back from church?Still looking good. Many thanks!
I occasionally use some synthetic pre-primed 1x4 and 1x6 stuff at HD; they have 3/4" thick in one material (exterior rated); and it's 5/8" in MDF.
Quick and easy.
Forrest
I wish it was that easy to find 3/4 inch think material! I have a mixture of 3/4" and 11/16". Today, my trusty helper (my lovely wife) and I will be planing down some of the baseboard from 3/4" to 11/16". For the paint grade stuff, the casing is all 11/16" and the base is 3/4". Fortunately, only about 2/3 of the house baseboard needs to be planed! Actually, that's not quite true, I milled the cherry stock from 4/4+ rough lumber.The use of a plinth block would have simplified things, and they look nice. But for some reason, I started to think that a plinth would be kind of "cheating". Ragnar showed a beautiful picture of some casing with a plinth block a couple of months back. BTW: For the base, I'll be using plain 7-1/4" tall S4S base and am hoping to avoid using a base shoe moulding and base cap. We'll see how nice the floor and walls turns out and how much scribing I'm willing to do or I'm willing to pay my awesome trim carpenter Dave to do. (I wish I could do it all myself, but my job involves a lot of travel)
The use of a plinth block would have simplified things, and they look nice. But for some reason, I started to think that a plinth would be kind of "cheating".
The other way original builders often "cheated" was to use 1/2" stock for the baseboards and 3/4" stock for the door casings. It definitely simplifies installation, and I think the shoulders add nice visual interest. Even planing down the baseboards to 5/8" helps butt them into a 3/4" casing.
Ragnar,Is your opinion that it looks better and still looks high end if the casing is slightly thicker than the base? Im under the impression that it looks a little more custom with every thing flush. Ofcourse, only I will likely ever know. I do really appreciate your insight on these design and build matters!
Is your opinion that it looks better and still looks high end if the casing is slightly thicker than the base? Im under the impression that it looks a little more custom with every thing flush.
Yes, I do think it looks better to have the casings stand proud of the baseboard. The fact that it also makes installation easier is just icing on the cake. Of course, that's just my subjective opinion. People all have their preferences, of course, and there's nothing wrong with that.
When I get a chance, I'll post a link here to some text on classical design. According to the scholars, the fillet piece, for example, is supposed to function as a transitional element. In the same way, one could argue that plinth blocks, etc., facilitate transition and help individual elements retain their identity and function.
According to the scholars, the fillet piece, for example, is supposed to function as a transitional element.
indeed - as a practical consideration, old plaster often finishes not in a perfect plane with the door/window frame (of course this never happens with modern drywall, right?) so the casing sets at a bit more than a 90* angle - set the head casing directly on top of this and it looks like hell -
if the plaster is proud above the door, then the head casing doesn't make contact with the frame -
the fillet is a small stick that is easily fitted to the frame and plaster - and with the bullnose sllightly proud of the casing cleans up that line and provides a clean, tight appearance -
"there's enough for everyone"
David,
I meant that the fillet was supposed to act as a transitional element in a visual sense. But you're right -- it really helps with installation as well.
Today, I planed down about half my base boards to the thinkness of the casing (just not enough time in a weekend). Anyway, I cut one piece to proper length to test fit and as I thought, it will be quite a chore to get it to line up perfectly square with the casing. It looks like I may need to shim parts of the walls with folded over tape or something to get it right. Is this an accetable method? I guess I can also try some base pieces that are thinner than the casing too and see how that looks. My poor planer is suffering, the baseboard is primed with very thick paint or plastic wrapping. But I have no other choice to get the material to the desired thickness.
Jointerman, On the house I described the window and door trim in we used a piece of parting bead at the juncture between the base and casing for the doors. About 3/8" thick , 1"wide and 6 " long. It stood proud of the 1 x 6" base and provided a break so that that the base and casing didn't have to be in perfect alignment to each other. I will try to take some pics tomorrow."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
It looks like I may need to shim parts of the walls with folded over tape or something to get it right. Is this an accetable method?
You can just use whatever works to shim the trim -- I find cereal boxes and stuff like that works well. You can also use butt strips (for sheetrock work).
I mentioned sending you some text on classical molding proportion, etc. -- I'm attaching it below. Some of it can be pretty "artsy" and difficult to follow (it was for me, at least), but after letting it sink in, it really starts to make sense.
The relevant part about fillets is when the author discusses transitions, or what he also terms "punctuation". He states "nothing in nature ends abruptly; there is always some modulation that signals that the edge of the object is near..." I've read in other places that the fillet helps visually transition the horizontal lintel to the vertical columns. In a broader application, I interpret this to mean that transitions can be important between the casings and the baseboards, too.
Anyway, it might be a bunch of hooey, but I tend to buy into it. ;) Hope you find it interesting.
What a great resource, thanks for posting this. I tracked down the ICA website and they have some great articles. Just in time, too - I'm working this into an active project.
Piffin posted that link a while back -- it definitely is a great resource.
Make sure you post some pictures of the project when it comes around.
I was working on a basic A&C home yesterday (still don't know the dates of those other homes yet, but this is a 1908).The side casings are 4-1/4" the head casing is 4-5/8", the bullnose fillet projects 1/4" to the front and 3/8" past the sides. The base was 9" and the plinths 9-1/2".
Funny, I was just posting some shots of colonnades, and here you have one, too. ;)
Is this original work? It looks so clean!
It is original work.I just put new countertops in the kitchen, etc.This week I will be rebuilding an oak floor register for them too.
Hi all. I have had the luxury of designing and building my own version of an Arts and Crafts/Cottage style house for the last 6 years. Ok that's a long time, but not bad for a one woman crew. Anyway, my favorite part of construction has been the trim carpentry and the details in general. I am not a slave to tradition and am lucky that I do not have to answer to a customer who wants to recreate a detail exactly. Not that I don't believe that you can't learn from history, far from it. I like to use it as a take off point where with some creativity, modern materials and techniques I end up with a product with pleasing proportions. I would be lost without my pocket hole jig, well not lost, but it sure has made my life easier.
I started finishing the home from the top down and it is interesting to me to see how my style has become more simplistic as the years go by. Not in an effort to do less work but I guess in an effort to get to the essence of the style, if that makes any sense?
The pics of the window trim , loft stair and Master bath were all done before this new approach. There is a transition between the base board and door trim by way of the back band.
In the kitchen area, the new simpler trim detail is shown.-No back band on mid horizontal and door trim. This is where my pocket hole jig is handy for all of the joinery on the same plane. Of course it helps with the textured drywall-popular in our neck of the woods in that it hides the shims nicely.The window seat is my current project
Being somewhat a newbie to this forum I have been reading all the threads I can with great interest. It is reminding me how much I miss being part of a crew in my former life in Canada. I have been lucky to work with some skilled carpenters and a talented , talented, Designer/ Builder who is an inspiration to me.
Sorry a little of topic but in reference to the talk about a designer/decorators role, I find it very sad when I am so distracted by the stripes and boats that I can't even see the craftsmanship that went into the building. It is I believe their job to complement the nailed down ? fixed? What is the word I am looking for? parts of a building, not try to cover them up with something that is probably only a fad .
Hey what goes on in the tavern anyway?
Thats some really nice work!
What part of the country are you in? Looks like Mts from one of the window views.
Fill out your profile, no need to put your address in it but a state or region would help.
Doug
Could not see where I am to plug that info into the profile. I live in the most remote area of the lower 48 according to a recent gov report, and that seems about right. Western slope CO- can see the Cont. Divide out my window- at an elevation of 9000' - pop around 400
The hills looked familiar.
I used to live in Kremmling, and then in Montrose
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Montrose, I know It well. Its about 1 1/2 hrs away in the summer 2 in the winter. When did you leave - BHD or AHD (before Home depot or after).It has exploded in the past couple of years,big building boom, I believe it is one of if not the fastest growing cities in the west.
Left there in '87 or '88. Thought about going back a few years ago but there are several things that kept us here. It is one of the finer places I have lived.
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Could not see where I am to plug that info into the profile.
Click on your name, there will be a spot in the upper left corner thats says, "change profile" click it and fill it out.
Doug
Took this pic today > I was just finishing up my response to you about my remote location when I hear a commotion outside. You are getting sleepy, go to sleep little bear. Go to sleep for the winter. Honestly they don't scare me but with my dog chasing them it gets hairy. How do you stop that natural instinct in a dog before the bear stops it permanently.
he's planning a dip in that hot tub!
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Hey not funny. That's the second top for that tub. A bear ate the first one. We have neighbors that actualy let the bears into their hot tub.
You need one of our regulars - IMERC to stop by and take that old bear for a waltz.Wait a minute, you never painted any oak crown white did you?
IMERC has a problem with girl painters who do that.;)
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take a gander at the several posts just north of this one.
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Let me think. Not that I could remember .Not really a fan of oak, although the quartersawn type used in Mission furniture is quite nice.
Why would he want to dance with the bear?
He just has a way with animalsand lives out near the divide
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Piffin
You talk like painting oak is a bad thing!
I actually think burning it is more appropriate but....
Doug
Nice picture!
That bear doesnt look all that small to me but maybe thats cause I'm not used to seeing them outside on my deck!
Doug
He is just a wee thing, maybe 150 lbs. Last week there was a road kill a few blocks away that was 430lbs.
Do your roads kill many of them like that?
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LOL. Wise guy huh, why I otta
Only the slow moving OLD ones.
:)
Very tasteful!The Tavern is where we sink each others boats in the bathtub;)
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That's beautiful work. A lot of thought went into every aspect, it appears.
Thanks for sharing. Hope we'll be seeing/hearing more from you.
Allen
Thanks. You are right there , I even go to sleep thinking of this stuff and see them in my dreams. Is that normal?
"I even go to sleep thinking of this stuff and see them in my dreams. Is that normal?"
It is for me. I sometimes lay awake at night wondering if I remembered everything on the last job I did, etc.
Glad to see ya posting, and nice work on the pics you posted.
It usually takes more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu speech. [Mark Twain]
That is a sign of a fatal disease: Builderitis, anyone with the disease is doomed to spend the rest of their live either building it , thinking about it, or discussing it."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
tip 'o the hat -
indeed - nicely done -
"there's enough for everyone"
carpentergirl, Just 6 years to do all that on your own home? You are way ahead of me !!! Beautiful work and I like the "less is more" attitude."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Superb work. Really. Kudos to you.
Is that all doug fir we are seeing, or is it knotty alder? Looks like fir to me, but maybe not.
I see some great things happening in the kitchen. Nice lighting scheme, using the craftsman group of fixtures over the sink, and the low voltage spots running on twinwire suspension elsewhere. Gotta remember that for the future.
The way you integrated the Stickley worktable adjacent the island is a nice touch, with only the two front legs going floor length, and the depth drop just enough to get a receptacle where you need it. Cool.
I have used the rod-and-accessories stuff in backsplash areas (Italian-made, IIRC). It is expensive, but a great touch. I like to call attention to it with xenon lighting under wallcabs. Does yours have that?
The use of a backsplash hanger rod at the side of the island is a great idea. Is that a can-quill I see adjacent the paper roll holder? Really super use of the backsplash gear. Outside-the-box thinking.
Adjacent the fridge, is that a framed-in chalkboard integrated into the side panel? Nice touch.
Why don't you post some more pics of your details, and tell us some background as to how you arrived at design, executed it, etc.
I was curious about the wood too, but I was guessing a ponderosa pine
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I wondered if some Western Red Cedar is in there along with the P. pine.
BINGO!!! we have a winner. All of the trim is cedar with aspen on ceilings , no pine.The cedar comes kind of rough and I run it through the thickness planer,one of the hardest working tools use. I could not believe when I first came here that people use the ruff cedar for trim inside of their houses here, to each his own I guess.All of the wood has a few coats of BJ Moore Stays Clear Acrylic Polyurethane low luster with 16 shots of white(KX), a little trick that I picked up in Canada when I was a painting contractor. Two to three coats cuts the yellow in some of the wood and kind of mellows the tones until they are in the same family gives it a nice sheen and not to mention, but I did , make it really durable and easy to clean.
Cedar is nice choice for your setting and style...you have managed to combine rustic and refined in the same residence (not an easy thing to pull off).During my most restless years, I traversed your neigborhood by bike, foot, raft and ski. Good times.
Rustic and refined, I like that . Thanks , think I 'll use that to describe the place.
Wow you are observant, thanks for noticing.That is really refreshing, my husband wants nothing to do with the details, can't even try to bounce something off of him , doesn't interest him in the least. Let me try to answer your????
Not Doug Fir, Cedar- see response to this in another message
Thanks about the kitchen lighting. The twin wire suspension was on sale at home depot for $50 including all of the bulbs, gotta love a deal like that and could not pass it up.
The work table adjacent to the island is partly a recycle. We have a 5x10' snooker table that my husband just had to have - will include pic. Anyway the pool table installers did a crappy job on the install and blew out some screws on one of the ends and sides. Long story short, Connelley Billiards, after these guys went out of business was nice enough to send me new replacement parts, paid to get it done right and let me keep the blownout pieces--SWEEET!. Oh yeah I forgot to mention that we contested the charges with the bozos and got the pool table for half price. SWEEEETER! Getting back to it, I cut the end in half, made the legs out of some cherry flooring I had and cut the front rail for the front apron. For t he top I glued up some Walnut that some guy gave me for free and made the butcher block top. I lucked out on that one all the way around. And you are right that receptacle dictated the height of the table.
The rod and accessory stuff was really really cheap. If you have not checked out Lee Valley Tools,800-871-8158 or online at leevalley.com I would suggest that you do. One of my fav catalog shops.Yes that is a quill can or what they call a Quiver.
Chalk board is magnetic, even nicer touch. Although a little pricey
Well gotta go now and teach some newbie bellies how to wiggle. In case some of you had your minds in the gutter I am a Belly dancer and instructor, hense the dancing girl part of my name de plume. It really is gratifying seeing them grow in confidence in what they are doing and their bodies in general. Some of the ones that said that they would never perform in from of an audience are my best performers
"why don't you post some more pics of your details, and tell us some background as to how you arrived at design, executed it, etc"
Ok, I've been busy so could not get back to you until now. I will start with the kitchen, and in subsequent posts get to the rest. Didn't know if I should start a new thread for this as it is a little off topic, but guess this will work
rest of the KITCHEN-
Forgot to mention that yes, I do have Xenon under cab lighting in last post to you.This partially influenced my decision to use honed granite for the main counters and polished for the island. The shiny surface of the polished is like a mirror and even though the underside of the cabs is finished and looks good , I like the diffused effect of the light on the honed. Also this gives the island counters more of a focus and by way of experiment see if the claim that the honed are just as easy to keep clean is true.
BTW. Been thinking about your corner cab question in another thread. Can see why you would want to do it for the reasons the others mentioned. The only concern that I might have would be that there might have to be some forethought to the counters. If they are to be heavy granite as mine, and I don't know if this is common practice placed right on top of the cabs with a seam in the corner, that the scabbed on cab be on the opposite side of the seam as this might be a weak point. Just a thought.
The Island has a feature that was hard to see in that last pic- see new one attached. The bar sink was placed just so, and with the right faucet works as a pot filler. I have never had one of these,do people who have them justify all the extra plumbing for this one use? In this case the faucet does double duty.
The pantry is just steps away from where it is most needed. This area,the pantry was an afterthought. I was going to have a really interesting stair/handrail here which would have looked good but not been functional. The stairs are u shaped and the upper return section works nicely for the pantry. There is a huge pocket door that I made that closes off the upper floor from the main,so that when there might be some strong cooking smells they stay downstairs.
With the combination of the backslash rod accessories , cabs and dishwasher placement ,I can unload 95% of the dishwasher with out taking a step.I especially like the dish rack accessory which has a tray for air drying the dishes. This is the most expensive component of the system at $28.50, but it makes a really affordable plate rail/rack, and where my plates are always parked.
Thats it for now, Yolie
MtnBoy,
Have you looked through this book:
"Shop Drawings for Craftsman Interiors: Cabinets, Moldings & Built-Ins for Every Room in the Home" by Robert W. Lang
You can find it on Amazon.
I got caught up in the spirit of things and ordered that book, after browsing it at amazon--a feature of theirs that I like a lot, BTW.It'll be here when the ponies get it to me.
I have not read all the replies, so my apology if this book as already been mentioned.
There is a book of Craftsman Interior Trim. I copied our plate rail out of it. It was published around 2004 or 2005.
But I'm afraid I'll have to look at home to find the exact title and author.
Our last house had about 1/4" overhang of the side casing at the line where the top casing met the side casing. The ends of the top casing were cut at an angle, maybe about 15 degrees or so. And the top casing was 5/4" stock, while the sides were 1".
Thanks for the dimensions on the trim. I experimented with it yesterday and thought that 1/2" overhang of head over sides looked good given that I'm using just flat, non-angled trim. Continuing to look at options. I did like the 5/4 head with 1" sidesI've got a couple of books on order. One is Robert Langer (as I remember), his first one on architectural & furniture designs. The other is one of Stickley's old ones of houses (used book, great price).Thanks for your help. Let me know if there's another book I oughtta look at.
Dang it. I forgot to get the title. Writing myself a note now.
Ok, it is "Shop Drawings for Craftsman Interiors" by Robert W. Lang. It has cabinets, moldings & built-ins for every room in the home.I got my copy from a specialty place, don't recall the name. A search should have it pop up someplace. If not, get back to me and I'll dig out the details. It is pretty recent, about 2005 I think.
Here's the book Bryan mentioned -- $16 at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Drawings-Craftsman-Interiors-Built-Ins/dp/1892836165
It is on the way to me from amazon as we speak. Thanks.
Thanks for all the trouble. Jointerman had mentioned it to me earlier as well and I ordered it. So, two of you guys like it, I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Bryan,
Do you have any pictures of the plate rail installation? I'm assuming it's in the dining room with some faux wainscot, as well. Did you go for box beams, too?
Pics of trim as promised. Was in a hurry so the pics aren't that great . The one window /door set is poplar, the other oak.
Poplar is without the crown."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
dovetail,
I am interested in that poplar
It isn't the color or grain I associate with poplar
are we talking about 2 different poplarss?
Stephen
Stephen
You can pick through poplar and find all white wood, not really that difficult.
Most times you'll see a lot of green in with the poplar, espically here in the midwest. But if you go to a place that has big bunks of the stuff you can find quit a bit of the white stuff.
I have a wardrobe made of poplar that most people think is walnut, poplar will stain up well if you chose the right color wood to start with.
Doug
stephen, I don't know the local that the poplar came from. I would assume it is N.W. grown. I haven't used it much out here but I liked it on this project."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
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I dont know if I've seen this style before - with the parting bead on the top. I kinda like it, simple but still a nice touch.
I think there are about as many ways to do A&C trim as there are to do Victorian, I like this one while I typically dont care for A&C.
Doug
Doug, I have done that parting bead on top several times. it is less expensive then a crown , and as you say has a nice look to it."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Do you assemble that whole headpiece withthe two beads and end returns on a table before sticking it up there?
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Piffin,
Yes and No. I personally like to place the legs first , then set the first bead atop the legs. Doing that allows me to scribe it to the wall/window juncture in the event everything doesn't plane out nicely. Once the first bead is on and tacked to the legs with pins then I set the prepared head and crown (or second bead) atop the first bead and fasten it to the wall, if needed I can use a little force to move the bead first bead into alignment with the window head and then pin it up into the head piece. Other carps on the job scribed everything to fit , assembled all the pieces on the table then shot it into place. Just different approaches. Either way the top bead or crown is assembled and fixed to the head piece on the work table . OH! and Thanks to whomever it was who posted about the "Trim Glue" available now, that stuff is great !! That stuff will hold tiny mitered pieces in place after just a few moments time."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 9/28/2007 9:25 am by dovetail97128
"whomever it was who posted about the "Trim Glue" available now, that stuff is great !!"I have mentioned this quite some time ago. It has been around for maybe eight years or so now, but is still harder to find some places.
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Piffin, You have been around long enough to know that we "Left Coasters" are a bit more "Conservative" than you "Right Coasters" so something as progressive as a new and "Liberal" approach to glue would be slower to be found out here. ;-)"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Apropos the subject of the thread, whaddya think of this, attached.
Not mine, I cut it from over at JLC. It was in a discussion about the use of Google Sketchup.
OOPS! Sorry, but I gave away my opinion in the filename.
Gene:
The picture you posted is the type of work I see frequently in "high end" new construction. It's obvious that nice materials were used, and that the finish carpenters were skilled enough to do very nice work.
However, I think the design is faulty, and the overall result is disappointing. Just doesn't float my boat.
As you're probably suggesting, the pier bases are significantly undersized in relation to the posts. EDIT: and the posts are just a little too big anyway.
A greater problem, in my opinion, is that the columns visually bear against sheetrock. If I were to design this, I would use cased openings and space the columns to make traditional colonnades, as shown below. (None of below photos are my work, by the way, just handy to communicate the colonnade idea.)
View Image
View Image
View Image
Edited 9/30/2007 3:14 am ET by Ragnar17
That top picture is almost exactly what I'm working on. If it comes out half that nice, you bet I'll post it.
Thanks Piffin for the ICA handbook.
Gene,
I guess those columns you posted a while back are kinda lost in the thread now.
So what were your thoughts on them?
Ragnar,Did you see the quartersawn oak floor grate I rebuilt for the 1908 Craftsman (in the "What did you do today?" thread). It happens to go in the floor right behind the columns I posted in this thread.BW
No, I haven't seen that yet. What section is it under (i.e. General Discussion, etc.)?
Yup. It was in General Discussion...buried by now.Here they are again (16"x24" grate):
Looks great, Basswood.
I replaced three "joists" and five "purlins."The grate has 27 pieces, but it looks more involved than it is. I used an old broken joist as a pattern and gang cut the dadoes on a sliding miter saw. 23 ga. micropinner sure was handy too.
I just got home from a meeting that was held in an old church in a small neighboring town. Noticed the trim work which fit with this thread. 1 x 4 side casing or parting bead above, then 1 x 6 head. What made it unusual was that it was back beaded (can't remember the correct term for the trim on the outside of the casing tonite) with a full 5/4 x 7/4 piece and had a 3/4' cove mold applied at the intersection of the backbead and the casing. Head including the backbead over hung the sides a good 2" . Different look to it . Also had some pairs of very large bi-fold doors, 9' tall that started with an 18" section then a 3' section. One set even had 1-18" section then 2-3' sections. Opened they gave an 8' or 14' openings into the adjoining rooms. Church was built about 1890-1900.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I think backband is the term you're looking for.
Can you post any pictures? Does it look anything like those pictures in the "Greek Revival" thread?
Rganar, Thank you , backband is the term I had lost in the recesses of my dustbin brain. I may be able to get some photos in the future . If so I will postthem here.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Maybe you guys are highlighting another difference in regional terminology; I've only ever heard "parting bead' in the context of a double hung window. It's the 1/2" x 3/4" (varies somewhat by manufacturer) strip that pushes in to a dado and works to separate the "tracks" ("races"?) of the top and bottom sash.
Yea maybe thats where I'm taking the "parting bead" term from, dont know for sure? And I am aware of the piece of wood being the parting bead in a window. You've got me thinking????
Now that you bring it up I dont know if I've ever used that term to describe that particular piece of moulding.
What do you call it?
Doug
Doug,That is called a "single bead" molding AFAIK. It may also have a name as the base of a head casing too, but heck if I know.BW
Where are you folks getting your top moldings - crowns and such?
I'm into one right now and trying to simulate existing look to replace a bunch of previously used 2.25" colonial casing. The "parting strip" is easy enough to rip from clean stock and hit with roundover to break the edge, but my local yard carries absolutely nothing resembling a top molding.
I'm doing about 9 doors and not real anxious to reinvent the wheel here. The house is one of my rentals. It started as a quick paint job and it looks like this is going to develop into a quagmire with windows, trim, kitchen cabinets and a residing job.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Don,
Can't speak for others but the small crown on the top of the oak door I posted came from a local millworks supplier. I can get it though the local yards but they get it from the same supplier. It is out there, just have to keep checking local yards would be my guess."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Don,Here's the local yard (Seattle) where I get all my moldings. I don't imagine it will help you much directly, but it might help in finding the specific names for better web searches. Note that cap molds are on page 9 of the catalog. Also note this is the "stock" list only -- there are lots more in the special order list.http://www.limbacklumber.com/stock-cat.pdfHere's the molding "home page": http://www.limbacklumber.com/mouldings1.htm
What do you call it?
Fillet. The piece is named for it's application as opposed to its cross section. The most common ones are a simple bullnose, but there are also ones with a little cove at the bottom, too, for example.
Edited 9/25/2007 11:48 pm ET by Ragnar17
Fillet - that makes sense, I can live with that.
Thanks
Doug
No box beams, and we did a red leather wallpaper. The original wallpaper had been an embossed one, but I find those get dirty to easy.This picture is unfinished though. There are corbels and trim underneath.