Replies

1. 
   Fez | Jun 17, 2003 04:32pm | #1

   I have outgrown pucks and hav started using halobars.

   The pucks you can get from HD usually rung three to a transformer, and the transformers poop out within about a year.

   As far as the halobars go, the point lights are already pre-placed within the bar, so just buy the longest bars that fit for each of your cabinet runs.

   Fez

2. 
   Totalhome | Jun 17, 2003 08:21pm | #2

   We use a Hera puck - 12V and about 15W each - with a remote mounted transformer. I get the lights from a lighting showroom and the transformer from the electrcial supply house. Hera also has a transformer but we have had better luck with ones from the electrical supply. Ours tend to be made bt Dongan. We have never had a problem with these transformers. They are large so you need to have a place to put them (basement, back of a cabinet, etc) that is accessible if they do need service.

   http://www.heralighting.com

   http://www.dongan.com

1. 
   Brooklyn | Jun 17, 2003 08:40pm | #4

   Thanks for your recommendations.  Much helpful information on the two sites you referenced.

3. 
   Scooter1 | Jun 17, 2003 08:37pm | #3

   Fez is right on about the stupid transformers. I throw them away and buy larger (higher wattage) ones from a lighting supply, locate them in the basement or a nearby closet, and string all the lights to a single transformer.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Jun 20, 2003 08:21pm | #15

   Boris  --

     You mention that you drive 12 volt systems with a transformer mounted in another room.   That means you've got cable running through walls to get from the transformer to the lights.  What do you use for cable, and why?   And could you cite a section of the NEC to support your decision?  I'm asking because I'm a cabinet guy, and sometimes run into this issue.  I've gotten lots of very different answers to this question over the years.

     

1. 
   Scooter1 | Jun 20, 2003 08:41pm | #16

   Jeez, I'm a remodler, not an electrician.

   Because it is low voltage, there are very little concerns. I use 12 or 14 guage strand wire (the thickest I can find) at a big box, Radio Shack or electric supply, and send all runs from each lamp through the cabinet down to the basement.

   I use a 3/8" router bit to on the top of the cabinet just above the puck (where it is not seen) and generally covered over, and string the wire through those channels. I do the same on the sides and eventually there is a whole bunch of wires going through a i inch hole in the floor or wall. I have also soldered the rascals together and used shrink wrap insulation and reduced the wire strands to only a few.

   I get the transformers at lamp shops, like Lamps Plus. They have a catalog behind the counter with heavy duty 300 watt ones. Look at the wattage with your three puck transformer, and figure out the wattage you need per puck and multiply it by the number of pucks you have. Increase it by about 25-50% and buy accordingly.

   I install a wall switch near the built in cabinets which goes down to the basement or closet and feeds a switched outlet. The transformer then plugs into that. The transformer switch on the unit is always "on" but is only turned on with live juice when the wall switch is flipped. My unit had a built in fuse, too.

   Be carefull what your client puts under these. I had a customer set a cereal box on fire that got too close to these pucks.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

4. 
   migraine | Jun 18, 2003 01:49am | #5

   I would like to add one thing to the other posters... Buy transformers that don't create elecritical interference(phones,etc.) and put them in the attic or somewhere else that has good ventilation

1. 
   Brooklyn | Jun 18, 2003 04:12am | #6

   Thanks for the suggestion.  Transformer is destined for the basement!

1. 
   ahneedhelp | Jun 18, 2003 08:12pm | #7

   That must be the problem with a 3-light undershelf unit we have.

   It quit working after awhile and there is black transformer looking thing inside the case. The lights are the same as the puck units with low-voltage bulbs.

   So...do I just match the specs to the one that's broken ?

   Also, if I go with a remote mounted transformer for other installations (which will also include some flourescent strip lights), where can I look up wiring gauge requirements for different distances ?

   Thanks for any tips

1. 
   Scooter1 | Jun 19, 2003 02:07am | #9

   Ah:

   Yep, match up the wattage of the unit you have to a new unit. I would go a tad larger. If the one you have is 100W, you could go to 150 or maybe 200. Don't quadruple the wattage or the excess watts will blow the bulb.

   Or just go to any of the woodworking catalogs and buy a replacement transformer for the three bulb variety. But be advised for some reason, those cheapies (yeah right, about $50 for one!!!) won't last more than a year.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

1. 
   ahneedhelp | Jun 19, 2003 02:14am | #10

   re - But be advised for some reason, those cheapies (yeah right, about $50 for one!!!) won't last more than a year.

   -----------

   Crap - the three-light fixture (compliments of GE) cost far less then $50 !

   Thanks for the information.

2. 
   caseyr | Jun 20, 2003 07:02am | #12

   Not sure how the "excess watts" will blow the bulbs.  If you have stable voltage and a good transformer, you are only worried about keeping below the maximum to avoid burning out the transformer.  Of course, if  you have too big of a transformer and it is always on (i.e. you have the light switches after the transformer rather than before) then you might have some continuing parasitic losses that can show up on your light bill. 

3. 
   4Lorn2 | Jun 20, 2003 08:25am | #13

   If the halogen lamps in the pucks, or any fixture, is dimmed or the transformer is maxed out the lamps, bulbs, will not last anywhere near as long as designed. These conditions don't allow the lamps to come up to the full temperature that allows the halogen cycle, the cycle of vaporization and redeposition of tungsten back onto the filament, to be completed.

   These lamps also have the longest life when allowed to run for some time when turned on. Switching them off and on too frequently doesn't allow them to come up to full temperature. I try to avoid using halogen lamps in bathrooms and hallways. Both locations get turned off and on too frequently IMHO.

4. 
   BillHartmann | Jun 20, 2003 05:24pm | #14

   "Not sure how the "excess watts" will blow the bulbs."

   It won't!

   But here is what can happen. The transformer is designed to deliver rated voltage at rated load.

   For example 12 volts at 30 amps (360 watts). But if open circuit that transformer might have 13.5 volts at the terminals.

   The cheaper transformers will use less copper and have higher effective series resistance and thus they have to boost the number of turns on the secondary and will have more problems with this affect. And those transformers will have more heat losses and shorter lifetimes.

5. 
   steve | Jun 21, 2003 12:50am | #19

   Re:  Don't quadruple the wattage or the excess watts will blow the bulb.

   this is not true, a higher wattage transformer running at the same voltage will merely supply more lamps

   these lamps are in parallel and will only draw their required amperage regardless of wattage available

   the correct voltage is crucial usually 12 volts, required wattage is determined by how many lamps are in the circuit

   the bigger the transformer the better it will run cooler and therefore longer

6. 
   Scooter1 | Jun 21, 2003 01:50am | #20

   Actually not true in my experience.

   I made the misake of plugging in a single light to a large battery sized 300 watt transformer and it melted the light in about 1 second. Maybe the light was defective; maybe there was a short; but the d a m n thing darn near exploded.

   This is episdoic--I am not an electrican. So call me wrong or stupid.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

7. 
   steve | Jun 21, 2003 01:55am | #21

   sounds like a defective bulb

   think about it, in your car you have 100 watt headlight and 2 watt glove box lights but the same voltage

   the wattage of the supply doesnt matter only the voltage output and adequete wattage

8. 
   deadmanmike | Jun 21, 2003 11:48pm | #23

   sounds like a defective bulb

   Especially if it was a halogen and he touched the glass...hotspot...poof.

   You're right on, as are the others who said xformer size is irrelevant as long as the output V is correct.

   Only possibility I can see is if the xformer's output V is high to compensate for the load down of a certain # of loads.

2. 
   stonefever | Jun 20, 2003 06:02am | #11

   Rope lights do better on top of the cabinets.

   But I've always had a bad taste towards the bright reflections in the polished countertop from puck or the bar types.  But you need the halogen bright white color to bring out the depth and beauty of granite.

   This is how I solved the problem using what's called, "linear lights."  Uses the same 12v feed from the transformer.

   
1. 
   Brooklyn | Jun 20, 2003 08:51pm | #17

   Great layout!  Any specs you can provide , or brand preferences, would be appreciated.

1. 
   stonefever | Jun 21, 2003 09:51pm | #22

   One of the contractors working on my shop came up with them.  Found them at his electrical supply house.

   Yesterday, I stopped in one and found this ELCO Lighting catalog on the counter.  Although this store did not have them in stock, he could order them.

   Anyhow's, the catalog had them.  Called Decolume Strip Light.  There's a collection of parts and options to make them more flexible.  Looking through these, I see that I lied in my last post.  I've got the incandescent lamp version.  Halogen choices are available.  I don't see anything on their website about them.  I would imagine that other manufacturers have something similar.

   The installation is most critical.  You'll see in that picture regarding the reflections (or lack of) that placement needs to be just right based upon sightlines.  That in itself requires a special piece of undercabinet crown trim. 

   Looking at the photo again with the upclose of the lamps, focus upon the profile of the crown.

   This piece is basically crown without the one cut at the bottom - you see how it goes to a point.  That point is what provides the shielding effect for the lamps to be successful - otherwise it would look like some Hollywood marquise from the front or reflected.  I had to have this specially ordered in cherry to match the cabinets.

   Furthermore, in retrospect, I would have preferred to have placed a strip of reflective metal tape under the cabinet prior to the cable installation.  I believe it would have helped control the heat effect.  Which speaks to the preferred use of the incandescents rather than halogens.  Even though I notice the heat, it is not enough to cause any side effects anywhere, so the tape is simply extra insurance.

   I would also imagine that your electrician could wire them to be dimmable.

2. 
   RobKress | Jun 20, 2003 11:56pm | #18

   hey stone,

   who makes these "linear lights" and where did you get them?

   Thanks

   Rob Kress

5. 
   BARMIL48 | Jun 18, 2003 11:10pm | #8

   If you're going to use pucks, consider using 12v automotive incandescent lamps instead of halogen. They deliver as much light without the heat hazard.