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Pulte Homes???????????????

robert | Posted in General Discussion on March 19, 2006 10:55am

 SO my wife has been driving me nuts.

 We paid $100K for our house about 8 or 9 years ago. With the kitchen finished I could easily get $200K. I owe about $110K because I took out some equity for the kitchen and a bunch of other stuff.

 Left to my own devices I would gladly stay here for a few more years. Next year I’m gonna be handing over $1k a month for tuition for my son and I already hand over $1K a month to have my girls  in a very good preschool two days a week. All of that goes away in five years and I’ll have $2K a month free to use as I please.

But, we all know how our wives can be when they get something in their heads. And mine? Well she has it in her head that we need to move. Not eventually, “Right now damn it”. Building my own is not really an option at this point. I still am unaware of what the future holds and it might be hard to finish a house from Iraq or Afgahnistan or even Africa.

 So, today I gave in and let her drag me to see some model homes. First stop? Pulte Homes.  I’m still in shock!

The last I worked on any production type homes was when I subbed stair rail installs for Builders First Source or as we like to call it Builders last resort. That was in 1997 or 98 maybe.

 So I have to ask. I didn’t think standards could get lower than they were then, BUt they have. HOW????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 I walked around the model and looked at doors out of square, casing out of alignment, half walls out of level and plumb, drywall nail pops, stair rail posts easily 1/2″ inch out of plumb, door casings with nickle width gaps cualked closed, fresh caulk applied to finished trim to hide gaps and a ton more. One of my favorite things was the master bath window sill cut off to make room for the glass shower surround. Apparently it was to hard to get a hand saw or maybe a dovetail saw and make a nice clean cut and then finish it. It looked like ti was cut with a sawzall with a bent blade and left unfinished, splinters and all.

 The Exterior details were just as bad. Eaves easily an inch out of level on 2 feet. Siding so sloppily applied it looks like it’s falling off already. Bent and damaged aluminum trim all over the place.

 The minimum allowable is the watchword there. We stopped by two sites and both were the same. Apparently you can’t use Quality and Pulte in the same paragraph, let alone sentence. In the early 80’s my father used to frame a house a day for Pulte iin the Tampa Bay area. Back then, this kind of stuff would have never flown.

 But it gets worse, we stopped by some local builders. More of the same. And these are the Models, not houses halfway thru the run. all of this Alleged Craftsmanship was on the houses built to represent the company. It’s insane.

 But, What really got me was:……………… $300K even for the base 4 bedroom 2 1/2 bath one car garage single. Then, add $18, 495 for the lot that is .295 acres instead of .24 acres. Then add on for anything but the basic carpet and sheet flooring. Then add on for anything but a single bulb hanging from the ceiling. Then add on for …………..Well, you get the idea.

 So now, your looking at paying $395K for a 2100 sqft single of questionable quality on a postage stamp sized lot.

 And these things are selling like they are the last houses that will ever be built……..EVER.

 So now, your looking at a $2500-$3000 a month Mortgage on something that might not outlast the payments.  Would you pay $500 a month for a Mercedes? Probably. $500 a month for a Hyundai Accent? I doubt it. But people are lining up to buy these things.

 Ok, I’m done ranting…………………I just don’t get it.

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Replies

  1. philarenewal | Mar 19, 2006 11:23pm | #1

    And that was the model?!

    Remarkable.  Next open house by a big builder, I have to go take a look.

    New construction generally gets a premium.  But there's supposed to be a reason for that (no/low maintenance headaches).

    Like I said, remarkable.

     

    "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

  2. User avater
    IMERC | Mar 19, 2006 11:25pm | #2

    they have met code and have their CO...

    and paid 25 cents a SF for trim..

    and got busted for kick backs...

    and got thier rebates from the subs...

    and didn't use house wrap..

    and didn't flash windows..

    and left off the felt..

    and on and on and on and on..............................

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!

    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

    1. robert | Mar 19, 2006 11:30pm | #4

      and didn't use house wrap..

      and didn't flash windows..

      and left off the felt..

       Thats funny because a few years ago a neighbor of ours paid $275K for ahouse around the corner. New and by a reputable local builder. FOr $1500 she could have had Tyvek on the shell. Or, for $1200 she could have a "Supersealed" house. Supersealing apparently involves paying a helper $9 an hour to go around and use painters latex caulk to seal any seem the new buyer might be able to see in the plywood from inside the house.

       There is a whole development about a mile away from me. of the maybe 100 houses that went in, I counted 8 with something behind the siding as it went up. All the rest? Vinyl over bare OSB.

    2. CAGIV | Mar 19, 2006 11:41pm | #6

      and oddly enough

      "Pulte has, indeed, been ahead of most of home building in the customer satisfaction department for years and dramatically so. But it is no surprise to Pulte that others have closed the gap."

      http://www.housingzone.com/article/CA6296667.html?text=customer

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Mar 19, 2006 11:43pm | #7

        must be some other planet...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

        Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      2. robert | Mar 19, 2006 11:45pm | #8

         Wow!

                       If Pulte is tops I sure don't want to even look at #2.

        1. CAGIV | Mar 20, 2006 12:00am | #11

          What surprises me is for the most part, people care more about, how they are treated, do you meet the commitments you make, and how painless the process is for them, then they do about the overall quality of the project.

          So maybe Pulte has figured out how to manage customer expectations and emotions more then they have how to build quality homes.

          I've seen customer's for us who had top quality work that still do not seem happy because of this or that and then had customer's  who's work I thought we could have done better on, but they're raving fans.

           

  3. User avater
    IMERC | Mar 19, 2006 11:26pm | #3

    don't miss this one...

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!

    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

  4. migraine | Mar 19, 2006 11:38pm | #5

    Maybe try showing her that the 8-10% that you are going to pay in real estate fee for selling your current house will pay for your kids school for the next year.  Then show her what the increase property taxes are going to cost her( yes I mean to say "her", not "us".  Isn't this what she wants?).  How long do you plan on staying in the next place, a few years, here you will be doing it all over again.  This time it will be double the selling/moving costs.

    Plus, I would assume that landscape, new furniture needs to be in the equation because either the old is "old" or doesn't fit...

    Good luck.

  5. USAnigel | Mar 19, 2006 11:54pm | #9

    I love it!! My work has gone from remodels "cause we want a change" to remodels "its falling apart from poorly built"  

    Maybe I'm outside the box but, after 30 years, still looking for better ways for the next time.

    Another way to look at it is "plenty of work in the future". Its all a rip off!!!!

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Mar 20, 2006 01:51am | #20

      when 80% of yur was "cleaning up"...

      ya know ya hit pay dirt...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

      Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

  6. Piffin | Mar 19, 2006 11:58pm | #10

    So what should I comment on, Pulte or your wife?

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. robert | Mar 20, 2006 12:06am | #12

       I think the wife has had her feelings hurt enough for one day after I told her not just no, but hell no.

       She had her heart set on that location because we used to own land on the same road. Once I showed her why it simply wasn't gonna happen she was pretty down.

      I just can't imagine taking on that kind of Mortgage for something so poorly built, or is finished the word I'm looking for.

       It appeared as if the workmanship on the overall structure was sound ( The floor wasn't gonna cave in anytime soon) but the finished product was horrible.

      1. Brooks | Mar 20, 2006 12:32am | #13

        Sounds like she needs a change. "Heck no" isn't going to satisfy that. Maybe its time for an extension to the house, or some new furniture?

        1. robert | Mar 20, 2006 12:51am | #14

          I'm all for change.

           Think a yellow Corvette would be change enough? I might have to drive it for her for the first three or six years but after that.....................................

          1. CAGIV | Mar 20, 2006 12:54am | #15

            you could make that vette thing work, Saw it happen last summer...

            Wife got a new kitchen, hubby got his vette...

            She didn't get all the extra's she wanted, and he had to buy a used vette...

            Two winner's, no losers...

            Compromise is the key ;)

             

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Mar 20, 2006 01:01am | #16

            Was your folks house (down in TX?) built by a national builder? I remember you posting some pictures of the attic a couple of years ago.

          3. CAGIV | Mar 20, 2006 01:16am | #18

            It was built by a large company, can't remember the name.

            It was an outfit out of CA that built resorts and such, thought they'd try their hand building a gated golf course community with country club.

            They had their aszes handed to them financially and sold out to someone else to finish the project.

            The interesting thing, with in this community there were homes from between 300k up to several million, place was huge.  The company who owned the land and did most of the development and building also sold off portions to "Custom Home Builders"

            There was no difference between the types of homes being built in regard to quality.  It was all crap, I generally don't like to judge or nit-pick other peoples work however it was down right depressing that some of this stuff passed

            The guy who was in charge of running my folk's home had zero construction experience and had a degree in Marketing.. go figure.

            Either way, they kept dap in business, should have sent out tankers with pressurized caulk guns feeding off the tank....

          4. User avater
            BillHartmann | Mar 20, 2006 01:05am | #17

            About 3 years ago there during the Prade of Homes a magazine (Midwest Living) had there show home on display. I think that they do one or two each year in different parts of the "Midwest".I went to see it as it was suppose to be an "arts and crafts" style. Well from the street you could see the shinners on the trim around the windows. And that was a $650k custom house.Down the street there was one done by a different builder for $750 and the difference was night in day.

      2. mike585 | Mar 20, 2006 01:34am | #19

        No action for you for a while!"With every mistake we must surely be learning"

      3. User avater
        IMERC | Mar 20, 2006 01:54am | #22

        so what is really under all that dry wall and carpet...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

        Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

        1. robert | Mar 20, 2006 02:03am | #23

           Looks like Proprietery I joists, Trusses and panelized walls. I hate to say it but Panelization seems to be the way to go for them. Gotta be better than letting those clowns frame their own walls. I did see Crush blocks next to the Joists and what looked to be blocking for bearing points along the girder. Steal Girder.

           Electric looked OK. PEX Plumbing. Not a big fan but maybe because I don't like new things.

           Poured foundation looked OK. Ties snapped off and epoxied.

           One of the models we looked at was a $299K twin. No deck, just 3 2x4's nailed across the door opening on the outside.

    2. User avater
      IMERC | Mar 20, 2006 01:52am | #21

      So what should I comment on, Pulte or your wife?

      only the foolhearty would comment on the later........Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

      Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      1. Piffin | Mar 20, 2006 02:42am | #28

        Y U think I axed first? 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          IMERC | Mar 20, 2006 04:06am | #36

          so you wouldn't get axed 1st????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

          WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

          Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          1. Piffin | Mar 20, 2006 04:35am | #39

            Re-ROAR!!! 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. User avater
            razzman | Mar 20, 2006 05:31am | #40

            dang, that's the first re-roar ever seen.

            Another BT first.

             

            be re

             

              

             

            'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity

  7. ruffmike | Mar 20, 2006 02:04am | #24

    Just saw a Pulte Homes sign on a 6 story condo project in downtown Oakland.

    First time I've heard that name around here, but I've never paid much attention to tract houses either.

    I'll hvew to stop by and check out a model.

                                Mike

        Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.

    1. wrudiger | Mar 20, 2006 06:43am | #42

      "6 story condo project in downtown Oakland"

      Is that the one by Houswives Market?  Been watching that one go up for over a year, from afar (6 blocks over & 17 floors up). Looked like it stalled for 6 months or so - maybe Pulte came in & bailed it out.

      1. ruffmike | Mar 20, 2006 03:34pm | #48

        No, its one of the ones on the Jack London side of the freeway, right next to the freeway. I know the one your talking about, and I noticed it seems to be finally getting wrapped up.

         Lots of opportunities to move downtown, closer to your work. The mayor sure would be pleased. ; ^ )                            Mike

            Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.

  8. mike585 | Mar 20, 2006 02:07am | #25

    I think this is the way it is. I live in a house that I bought from the bank. The builder went broke halfway into the build, and it went into foreclosure. I finished it. The builder poured a lot of craftsmanship and pride into it, and went bust.

    Meanwhile the guys building the 3000 squ. ft. multi-gabled homes are cleaning up. No quality craftsmanship; everything is an upgrade at a premium.

    I have made up my mind that I will never buy a home from one of these builders. If I have to move I'll find another project and do it myself, or hire craftsmen like the guys that I meet here, guys who want to produce quality work.

    It's too bad, but that's the way it is.

    "With every mistake we must surely be learning"
  9. User avater
    Nuke | Mar 20, 2006 02:26am | #26

    More times than not, tract builders do not build for quality, but rather volume sales. And since no one is making them build quality why should they? There will always by a 1st time buyer without vision to see the sh!t on the shingles they just bought.

    1. robert | Mar 20, 2006 02:43am | #29

       Nuke,

                It's always been my belief tht there existed a market for small well built homes. I actually have the plans here. A single family ranch on a 1/4 acre that would sit on a full basement. With the formal areas upstairs and a living area in the basement for playing or watching TV I figurd I could sell a ton of them since all my math shows I could come in at less than what townhouses are going for around here these days.

              Most of the new homeowners around me work in NJ or NYC and commute up to two hours. The rush of people to this area has driven the prices of our homes so high that most people who work here can't afford to live here.

               I can pick up land about a half hour north of me at a cost to amke my numbers work. If I keep lot costs under $50K I should be able to put it on the market for $200K or under. That leaves enough of a profit in it to make it worth my while. I even know what bank will lend me the money.

               When I see people rushing to buy the crap they are buying it makes me wonder if it's worth it. Will anyone see that the product I have is better than the one the big guy has? And, will it matter? Or, as I suspect, is it a rush to have a house in the same neighborhood as all the other Mommies from Gymboree??

              Stay in the Army or fly solo, either way I've spent a fair amount of my own time lining up all the details for when the time is right. I just wonder if it's worth the risk.

  10. User avater
    DDay | Mar 20, 2006 02:40am | #27

    This article ran in the boston globe a few years ago.  I particularly like when a local building inspector calls toll brothers homes "half assed".  Toll was the largest national builder and I think they still are.  I remember the article well because the problems with the house were far more than just railings out of level or poorly hung doors.

    http://www.ablehomeinspection.com/pdf-files/bostonglobestory.pdf

     

  11. User avater
    bayou66 | Mar 20, 2006 02:51am | #30

    These are but a few sins of the Mcmansions and those who build them. I like FH because they are looking at the issues of how we live and more deeply. We should do better creatively and thoughtfully.

  12. User avater
    Matt | Mar 20, 2006 02:59am | #31

    Robert:

    How about filling out your location in your profile (just click on your blue underlined name on a post)?  Those house prices you were giving are give-aways in LA but probably pretty steep for N. Dakota.

    Anyway... re Pulte - the sad state of the mega builder production new home business in the US today is strictly a product of what the American consumer has demanded: cheap square footage.   Probably at least 50% of home buyers today wouldn't know quality construction if it hit them in the face.  So, if you can only sell houses to 50% of the home buyers in the US... I guess you would be pretty successful.. Yes?  As far as customer satisfaction, I suspect that those numbers come from people who have been in their home for a few years or less... before it has started falling apart.  Also, remember that the mega builders only sell to 50% of the home buyers, so they already captured the naive ones. 

    I think it is largely due to what people today in highly developed counties do for a living.  They produce paper and services - not goods. 

    Further, sadly in today's society I think customer satisfaction is based largely on other things than just results.  For example, you call a large software manufacturer for technical support.  You get an almost immediate response on the phone, a young and perky but calm voice on the other end who works with you patiently for a number of minutes, and finally gives you some things to try that will take you a significant amount of time - like reload the operating system on your computer and all the other software ;-)  You gonna do that?  End result?  Problem not resolved.  Are you POed?  No... the person tried their best to help you, and you got quick and courteous response, and you understand that you likely talked to someone who was making maybe 1.5x minimum wage so what can you expect?  The person was put in that position for his/her "customer skills" - not necessarily a technical guru but someone who is familiar with the software and can maybe knock out 90% of the (easy) problems.  OK, so maybe you are persistent and call back a few times and eventually get the old grouchy voice on the phone and your (hard) problem is finally resolved.  

    Same with home building - I know first hand that Pulte has significant customer satisfaction programs, give quick and courteous response from people adhering to a dress code of some type, and 90% of those naive customers are happy.  There's your customer satisfaction rating....

    I would never fit in at Pulte.  I used to like to tell customers stuff like: "Look: there are 2 types of concrete - concrete that is cracked, and concrete that is gonna crack..." with a smile on my face....   I've soften and maybe even wised up a bit over the years, but you get the idea.

    Keep looking - you can find a quality builder.  They are out there.  Don't expect to get it at the Pulte price though.  Same old thing: although you don't always get what you pay for, you rarely, if ever get something worth having without paying for it.

    And as far as extras - yea.... you gotta pay for those - unless you find a home that those things are standard - as reflected in the price ;-)

  13. danski0224 | Mar 20, 2006 03:07am | #32

    I have done some work on their projects.

    Pulte provides all the framing materials, the carpenter only provides the labor.

    Cheapest materials they can provide, installed as quickly as possible, sold for as much as possible.

    Their superintendents are on the bonus program, so that tells you where their prorities are.

    They sell like hotcakes- I don't get it.

     

    1. robert | Mar 20, 2006 03:13am | #33

       I don't get it either.

       We used to do a ton of work for Pulte in the early eighties and while they watched price, they expected a solid, presentable job.

      I remember the Supers name. Morris Vanhoos. The guy could spot a mistake from a mile away and you could be sure you were gonna fix it.

      It seems like it's a long way from those days.

      Sad part is, it's not an idictment of Pulte so much as it is one of the industry in general.

       

      1. timkline | Mar 20, 2006 04:02am | #35

        robert,

        aren't you here in Allentown ?    Pulte's not the only game in town here.

        why do you want a brand new home, anyway ?

         carpenter in transition

        1. robert | Mar 20, 2006 06:44am | #43

           Ok,

          Gotta be new or pretty close. Can't risk owning a house where someone died before.

          Second, the site is in Breinigsville. We used to own land right down the road. We were going to build our house there before the $80K worth of fertility treatments and the year of our lives put on hold with a 2 pound baby. We sold it to get back on our feet after all of that.

           We don't HAVE to buy one, it's an emotional attachment.

           Actually, were it up to me I would look up Springhouse past 22 and on the right or left. Or, what's that road that runsbetween springhouse and Cedarcrest along the golf course? Didn't BUTZ do a big house there?

           Just gotta make sure noone ever died in it.

          1. BillBrennen | Mar 22, 2006 04:17am | #63

            "Gotta be new or pretty close. Can't risk owning a house where someone died before."Would you be gracious enough to tell us the reason for this requirement? It rules out a lot of fine homes, IMO.Thanks,
            BillEdited to add: In Europe, where they typically build quality to last for 100's of years, you'd be SOL trying to find a building untouched by death. To avoid death in a building, the buildings need to be disposable like today's McMansions are. Is this why America accepts this trashy stuff?

            Edited 3/21/2006 9:45 pm by BillBrennen

          2. robert | Mar 22, 2006 08:44am | #64

             Lets just say I have an adverse reaction to getting up to take a leak and running into a ghost at 2 AM.

             As for Europe?   That really only applies to Western Europe. in Eastern Europe most of the junk they build would be lucky to withstand fat lady breaking wind inside.

          3. paul42 | Mar 22, 2006 05:53pm | #65

            "Lets just say I have an adverse reaction to getting up to take a leak and running into a ghost at 2 AM. "

            Even worse, think about how the poor ghost must feel!

  14. User avater
    EricPaulson | Mar 20, 2006 03:53am | #34

    Robert,

    Search here for Pulte. We had a thread going at one time.

    Pulte has got to be the biggest shlt builder out there.

    A while back, they pissed off the wrong people. A bunch of them got together and started a website to tear on Pulte homes. At that time, if you Googled Pulte, this website would come up in the top 2 or 3 hits.

    Pulte went to court over it, I don't recall the result. You should have seen the stuff these poor folks purchased.

    FWIW, I've been home shopping with dw. It sucks. Oh, that's cute blah blah, while we are looking for good bones and potential for investment. Women shop with there emotions. Tell her you are the expert and the decision is yours initially with hers the second. Don't budge.

    Eric

    [email protected]

     

     

    It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

     

     

     

    1. User avater
      EricPaulson | Mar 20, 2006 04:10am | #37

      9 or 10 Google

      Homeowners Against Deficient Dwellings: Kaufman and Broad Homes

      http://www.hadd.com/websites.php

       

      31 google

      Rip-off Report.com - badbusinessbureau.com

      http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search!&q5=Pulte&Search=Search[email protected]

       

       

      It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

       

       

       

  15. peteshlagor | Mar 20, 2006 04:14am | #38

    So everyone else has talked about the house.  I wanna address another issue...

    $1,000 per month for TWO days a week of preschool?

    Someone has their priorities way out of order.

    Preschool can be a very good experience for young uns.  My kid needed it and did well.  But what he got out of it was some extra sleeping time for the parents, some social interaction with other kids, and a few extra colds he could have avoided.  It was not a factor in his graduate studies.

    But it's like any other expense.  There are better values out there.

    Whomever in your house that insists on spending this much for this purpose has their personal prespective on money and your financials out of order.

    BTW, don't count on those costs going away in a year or two.  Whomever makes the decision on the day care issue will find another source for disposal of this income.  And I use the term, "dispose" purposely.  You's guys need to focus on "investing" rather than "disposing."

     

    I'm a Certified Financial Planner with 20 years of seeing this behavior.  I suggest you spend some time with a good CFP or CPA to review your full financial picture and spending habits.  These expenses need to be protrayed in a future value scenerio where one can properly evaluate each's future impact.

    This $1,000 a month now is the future value equivilant of perhaps $5 to 6K monthly when they are ready for college.  You gonna have that money then?  You would have, if it wasn't pizzed away on expenses not providing a corresponding benefit.  They're not college material?  Than what the h*ll are you spending this coin now for?

    My experience tells me you're making a choice now between preschool and college.  Or preschool and a better standard of lining.  One may not need a Pulte home if one handles the cash right...

    What truly is in the child's best interest?

    The CHILD, not the parents.

     

     

    1. robert | Mar 20, 2006 06:38am | #41

       My wife works TWO days a week. For those two days, My children are in the best care available in the area PERIOD and not open for Debate. There is no two day a week plan so we pay for a full week.  She makes well more than enough to cover the cost of the $1K per month. The kids are happy so I can live with it for a few more years.

      My sons college I'll be paying out of pocket. I was 21 when he was born and saving didn't seem all that important.  The $100K set aside for each of my two daughters should more than cover college expenses by the time they are that age.

       As for the question of weather or not they'll be College material? Let me see? Yes, they will be based on Mom's TWO degrees and coming from a family where dad is the only simple redneck. All the rest are Lawyers or Accountants or Doctors or Pilots or One of the youngest VP's in one of the oldest Investment firms in the country. I'm sure both will go to College.

       The Bank and the Mortgage broker both say I can borrow up to about $600K right now. And, I could afford that payment rather easily. At issue is not the ability to pay, it's the willingness to pay.  What the bank says I can afford and what I am willing to strap myself to are two very different amounts.

       I will pay out of pocket for My sons education. My daughters are both well funded. I'll be able to collect My pension at 50 If I stay in. So, it will be about 60% of E-9 base pay by then. About $2400 in todays dollars. What will hurt is giving up the $2200 a month in tax free housing allowance.  A maxed out Thrift savings, Non- matching of course. Maxed out 401K for my wife plus an additional $1K-$1.5K a month in savings. A little raw land and a small portfolio. Much of the rest is on Auto-Pilot. Read "The Automatic Millionaire"? 

       Several years ago, I was a Millionaire on paper. ALL of it was wiped out when my daughter was born three months early. I sold most of what I owned to pay off what It cost us above and beyond insurance coverage. I don't care to repeat that experience and have chosen to change how I look at money.

       As an example, I own a Ford Explorer. I drove the VW, Lexus and Infinity, but bought the Ford. I don't need all the Gizzmo's. I need well built, long lasting comfortable, safe transportation. It will be paid off with only 60K miles on it. Now I could trade up, or I could keep it for about four more years payment free and save that money, enabling me to either  invest it, or pay cash next time.

       Just like the cost of my sons college will go away, so too will the cost of the preschool. I'll still be paying for horseback lessons and dance lessons just like I just forked over $1K for that SAT prep course, but I'll survive.

       My wife's income has doubled in the span of a year and will most likely do so again in about 24 more months.

       The only choice I'm making right now is between Preschool and Dad's new Corvette. I can wait a few years. I can AFFORD the House. I'm just not willing to pay that much for that house.

       

      Edited 3/19/2006 11:50 pm ET by robert

      1. peteshlagor | Mar 20, 2006 06:54am | #44

        I'm still sticking with my advice of visiting a pro.

        There's too many inconsistancies in your story for me to blanketedly accept someone spending that much on daycare. 

        You seem quite defensive on the suggestion.  Get the emotions out of the money decisions.  That's exactly what the daycare issue is.  

        You know, sometimes careers change, health changes, and jobs can be lost.

         

        1. blue_eyed_devil | Mar 20, 2006 08:04am | #45

          Quality day care is all about nanny to child ratios....not dollars to days ratios.

          Leave Robert alone...he seems to be doing fine financially.

          blue 

          1. peteshlagor | Mar 20, 2006 08:29am | #46

            Sorry, I don't mean to pick.

            Robert seems to be doing many things right.  Some we should applaud him for.  Others are his business.   Ultimately, whatever is said or thought about this issue comes down to this:

            If that $1,000 a month was reduced to $500 with the difference going into 529's growing at 8%, over the next 15 years, he'd have $171,354 to go towards college.  Is this present level of daycare worth that?

             

          2. robert | Mar 20, 2006 01:30pm | #47

             Go back and re-read. I'm pretty sure that the $100K gifted to each one of my daughters at birth will grow to be more than sufficient to cover college. That's why i'm not worried about paying for the daycare.

             My son is a different story. He lives with myself and my wife, his stepmother. No such gift exists. I'm sure that my inlaws will help, but have no plans of counting on it. So, I plan to cover it out of pocket. No big deal. I can afford it.

             I see your children are out of School now? Daycare is a different issue than it was 15 or 20 years ago. These are children, and if you must put them in daycare or preschool, then you have an obligation to make it the best you can possibly find and afford. Too many chances for horror if you don't. Ironically, this isn't the most expensive. That one was over $1300 per month. It is the one we feel is best for our children.

            Not every decision is about money and it's projected value. The goal is to make sure that happy healthy kids grow up to be able to maintain the same standard of living or better than they have now.

             I'll survive in my old age, and if not live richly at least comfortably. My reward will be seeing happy health well adjust children  who know the worth of money and not just the dollar value.

    2. User avater
      Ricks503 | Mar 20, 2006 11:17pm | #54

      I had my kid in preschool 5 days a week and paid $125 a week - $500 a month

      After preschool there are all kinds of other expenditures - organizations like scouting, sports, art or music lessons, bikes, more expensive toys like game systems and games.... the list goes on and on and on like the energizer bunny1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

  16. Tejanohombre | Mar 20, 2006 06:52pm | #49

    Pulte is widely known as a real s**t builder around these parts too. Just mention the name to a contractor and you get that knowing chuckle. But, that's hardly an indictment against them - most of the big box builders here do the same thing. And price doesn't matter either. For $1 million you get the same crap, just a whole lot more of it. Oh, and some fancier interior decorations but that's about it.

    The real problem, IMHO, is the frighteningly uneducated or uncaring buyers. One of the other posters had it right - men tend to think a bit more logically, women more emotionally. I've known guys to buy a crappy home just to satisfy the wife because she just loved the colors/kitchen/neighborhood etc. I've seen homes that just make you want to cry the construction is so bad and yet, they sell like hotcakes. Maybe people are just accustomed to that kind of low quality now and the builders are all too happy to accomodate the lower standards. Sad!!!

    1. BOBABEUI | Mar 20, 2006 07:43pm | #50

      For $1 million you get the same crap, just a whole lot more of it. Oh, and some fancier interior decorations but that's about it.

      You sir, get a standing ovation. 

      The builder that I bought my home from is a 'high end' volume builder in the south east. Like Pulte, they supposily have the greatest customer service in the world and have been voted America's best builder.  If we had the opportunity to do over again, both my wife and I agree we wouldn't have bought from 'America's best builder'.

       

       

    2. steveva | Mar 20, 2006 08:47pm | #51

      Hi, all.

      I'm new here - this is my first post.  While not in construction, I did grow up in an Sicilian family with a bunch of uncles, cousins and assorted piasans in the building trades, and spent many an evening,  weekend and summers helping out on masonry, rough carpentry, plumbing, roofing and electrical work.  I am an avid DYI, when I'm not putting in 50+ hours aweek for Uncle Sam at the DOD.  

      I have to agree with Tejanohombre, Pulte is pretty bad.  My brother-in-law plunked down $1.2 Mil, in May 05  for a Pulte McMansion in western Fairfax County. Except for the over-priced Viking 2-oven range, everything and I mean everything in that house is budget-priced junk you can get on closeout at HD or Lowes.  Sadly, that's typical for the DC metro area.  We live in Northern VA where the housing prices are certifiably insane.  "From the mid-700s" the banner announces cheerfully , and that's the starting price for new 1600 sqft. condo/townhouses going up in Alexandria, VA, and the quality stinks..  For that bargain price you get a breathtaking, panoramic view of the Exxon Station, 7-Eleven, and the ####-end of Bowl-America...

      My wife and I had looked at new houses a few years ago, that were closer to work. When we bought our house in 2000. We got a former rental (with exciting stories from the county police); its a 1974 split foyer, with old AC,  a cranky boiler with hydronic baseboards, single-pane windows, aluminum wiring, and a kitchen that was new when Nixon was president.  The deck had to have been slapped on as a afterthought, when the local building code for decks must have read "...must use one or more nails in the construction process."   We were astounded when we saw what 575K (base price)  was going to get us - budget kitchen appliances and bath fixtures, bad beige carpets, big-box particle board bath and kitchen cabinets, paint-grade-off-the-shelf trim work, sloppy drywall finishing, cheap wood floors, paper-thin interior doors, popped nails, crooked trim carpentry...the list goes on.  After seeing the sad state of affairs new construction offerings we decided to stay in our older home and renovate. 

       

    3. User avater
      Huck | Mar 20, 2006 08:51pm | #52

      In a previous thread, I made some comments about the proliferation of "McMansions", and the ethics of building large and ostentious homes with inferior materials and craftsmanship (which seems to be the unspoken credo of the McMansion builders).  Much of what I said seemed to be taken wrong.  Having followed this thread, I now think that perhaps my comments really belong more in this thread than in that one.  So here they are. 

      My response was to focus on the difference between perceived value, and intrinsic value.  "While McMansions offer perceived value, the lack of intrinsic value may surface only over time.  An uneducated buyer sees the visual ostentatiousness of the McMansion, and makes assumptions about quality based on what they see.  The falseness of those assumptions are not readily evident on the surface, and so some have made hefty profits capitalizing on this trait, offering great perceived value while whittling away at the intrinsic value of their product.

      "So the seller may say Hey, we just offered them what they wanted.  The same is usually said by scammers who prey upon retired elderly women, paying them a lot of insincere romantic attention while emptying their nest egg.  The same could be said about the pornography business, a huge multi-billion dollar industry that eclipses even the pro sports industry.  Or the tobacco industry.  They just give people what they want. 

      "Is there anything morally wrong with that?  I guess each one has to decide for themselves."

       Some didn't understand my analogies.  So I attempted to clarify, by saying "the point is, each industry mentioned is based on giving people what they want - people continue to buy the product, so its supply and demand.  But there are hidden costs involved - smoking cigarettes, for example, may cost more than just the price of the cigarettes.  Some people are OK with that, some aren't.  Some feel that the seller of cigarettes should be concerned about these hidden (i.e. smoker's health, smoker's family's health, addiction) costs, others don't think its their problem.  If its not, then its just supply and demand, like I said. 

      "If people continue to buy McMansions that are large and showy, but poorly made, then its supply and demand.  Or should a maker of houses be concerned with hidden costs inherent in a poorly constructed product that appears to be well-constructed to the untrained eye?  Does the fact that rising equity will likely increase the price of the home, despite its poor quality, come into play?   In other words, is it OK to build a home that will rapidly deteriorate, because the rising cost of land will probably increase its market value?

      "(Some builders) focus on increasing perceived value, without worrying about actual value.  Or they will view actual value as equity deriving from rising real estate prices, not from the quality of their product.

      "I'm not saying building McMansions is right or wrong - I'm only saying that if a person bridles at the thought of increasing perceived value while decreasing the quality of the product, that person will object to the proliferation of these McMansions.  I agree that a lot of the builders of these McMansions are making a lot of money, and if that end justifies the means to you, then you will not object.  Its a personal issue, each one has to figure where they stand."  "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain

      1. Tejanohombre | Mar 21, 2006 04:28pm | #57

        I think you're right, that there are often "hidden costs" with some of the things you mentioned. I guess in the building industry though, the cost is the lessening of standards overall. (Even though these homes are shoddy, I don't believe they're going to start falling down on their hapless owners.) And in the end, one could argue that it keeps a whole other industry alive. The real winners are the contractors that come in after the fact to renovate/re-paint and the stores like HD that provide the materials.To me, it just comes down to personal responsibility. If someone is ok with paying huge bucks for something shoddy, well, that's up to them. I don't have a problem w/ McMansions (love that term!)- my complaint is with the buyers that set this low standard. If homes of all prices sat empty because people refused to pay for crap, then builders would raise the bar and build better homes. It's not unlike Home Depot - we complain bitterly about the poor service and yet, on any given weekend the parking lot is full! If people voted with their dollars and went elsewhere, they'd step it up too.But for me personally, I just couldn't build a crappy house and sell it for a premium. When I put my name on something, it's quality. So that's why I'm a DIY real estate investor and not a home builder. If I was, I'd have gone broke on the first house I sold!

        1. User avater
          Huck | Mar 21, 2006 11:51pm | #58

          Yeah, its sad, but hard to place blame without getting into bigger social issues about the values of our society as a whole. "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain

        2. User avater
          SamT | Mar 22, 2006 01:48am | #59

          I guess in the building industry though, the cost is the lessening of standards overall

          These McBuilders serve 50% of the new home market. The biggest of them have the higest new buyer (4-18 months) satisfaction rating.

          50% of new homw buyers have developed a trust relationship with a General contractor and bought a house from them.

          The problems will be found by the buyers in the 5-10 year range when they start selling and remodeling and after the shoddy materials start needed replacment.

          50% of new home owners have been screwed by a contractor they once trusted.

          That's the real hidden cost.

          In my research for this thread, I found that contractors fall in the middle to upper range in all  of the "Top 10" official complaint lists I found. Once, higher than used car salesmen!

          Ya wanna know why contractors ain't trusted?

          Pulte, et al.

          Google:                construction contractor = 58.2M (million)                                      Adjusted = 52.2M = 100%  Lawsuit construction contractor = 1.5M = 2.8%complaint construction contractor = 6M = 11.5%

          google complaint pulte = 28,100complaint del webb  = 217,000complaint  centex = 63,000

          Those 3 outfits, alone, garner 5% of all complaints.

          It is a fact, that as hard as we here on BT try to be worthy of our clients trust, as a rule of thumb, contractors can't be trusted not to screw the HO.

          Would you trust a saw that cut you every 9 times you used it?Would you frequent a market that short changed you every 9 times?How about a doctor who amputated the wrong limb 1 out of 9 tries?Would every home have a computor if they all trashed the hard drive every 9 days?

          Don't forget, it takes 10 atta-boys to cancel 1 aw-shid.

          And we're only making 9 for 1.SamT

          1. User avater
            Huck | Mar 22, 2006 01:53am | #60

            you're breakin' my heart!  Say it ain't so, Joe!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain

          2. User avater
            SamT | Mar 22, 2006 02:39am | #61

            LOLSamT

          3. bobtim | Mar 22, 2006 03:04am | #62

            Would every home have a computor if they all trashed the hard drive every 9 days?

            What, that isn't normal?

  17. User avater
    CapnMac | Mar 20, 2006 09:21pm | #53

    So now, your looking at paying $395K for a 2100 sqft single of questionable quality on a postage stamp sized lot.

    Now, that's exactly what I think of, when I think McMansion.  The customer who does not know level, plumb, & square jsut sees the brand new house in a brand new neighborhood and just assumes it must be the "state of the art" (after all, all of the rest of the houses are jsut like it, aren't they?)

    So, that first customer has no idea they're buying $125-150K worth of house for their 1/3 or half mill (up front, close to 2/3mill after interest paymemts over the years).

    But, that's me, too (Pulte, Toll, Village, none are dear friends of mine . . . )

    Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
    1. DougU | Mar 21, 2006 01:29am | #56

      Robert

      When I moved down here to Texas I went out looking at the big nieghborhoods with the large trac builders. I walked away thinking exactly what you did, this is the model home and it looks this shiddy! What do the rest of them look like!

      I'd avoid buying any of the homes built by the large trac builders, at any cost. But I think you already know that.

      Doug

  18. jamar hammer | Mar 21, 2006 01:14am | #55

    You all know, its all funny how we talk about crappy/shoddy workmanship like its going out of style, when us real tradesman are members of FHB

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