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Discussion Forum

Pump for river water 70feet below lawn

stewie | Posted in General Discussion on May 26, 2009 09:50am

Hi guys

Town water/sewage is expensive, and river water is free ( after install costs).

The river is 70 ‘ below the lawn (gardens, hot tub, fish pond) and 330’ from the driveway/curb.

My plan/proposition is to buy a 1 1/2 HP Jet Pump (specs say it will lift H20 90′) and install it at the river. I plan on using 3/4″ garden hose for the intake and “push” up the hill,( length of 200′) then do branch sprinkler/soaker lines with 1/2″ garden hose.

I have a 10/2 wire installed in the breaker panel (single use circuit) that extends to within 25′ of the river, so that becomes pump location.

There is one outside connection to make with the wire at the top of the river bank and the plan is to have a weatherproof plug on a post.
At watering time, I open some sprinkler valves, plug in the pump…voila…..water….eh? No pressure tank to tinker with.

Your input is always appreciated.

Stewie

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Replies

  1. junkhound | May 26, 2009 10:11pm | #1

    Think 1-1/2 PE suction with good foot valve, you will not like trying  to use 3/4" garden hose or a suction pipe.

    1. User avater
      Luka | May 26, 2009 10:31pm | #2

      I'm going to find that out, in about an hour or two.;o)...Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime

    2. stewie | May 27, 2009 12:22am | #8

      O.K. Can do. Guess I was thinking if output (3/4") = input , it works. But larger input probably works better. What is PE ? Polyethelene? And the foot valve we need to maintain prime on the pump. I had been told I would need a pricey submersible , but good to know a cheaper jet pump will do the job. Stewie

      1. User avater
        Luka | Jul 20, 2009 11:48pm | #37

        Sorry to ressurect this old thread, but I am going to have some questions of my own.First, to make a point about what has already been discussed.A larger intake certainly does make a difference.I halfed the time it took to pump 55 gallons of water up the hill to my storage tanks, simply by replacing the intake hose with a 1" ridgid plastic pipe.~~~To ALL:Now, to lay out my own situation...I have a neighbor who is right on the river. Other side of the road from me.She wants to get water from the river.She has asked me to design whatever it takes, to get water not only to her, but to me as well.Neither of us is likely to be able to afford anything even mildly expensive, so I need to do this as well as I can, using mostly what is at hand.She will be getting the permit from the county, and paying the yearly fee, for water rights from the river. I will be paying for electricity. We will share maintenance, and some of the initial costs.The lay of things...The total run, to my place is probably at least 350 feet. (That will change later, to more than 500 feet. But that is moot, for now.)The total rise is less than 125 feet.My thoughts are thus:There is a point that is roughly 5/8 of the way to my place, (both rise and run.) where we can set a cistern.I figure that we can set a well pump at the cistern, to get the water to that point, from the river. Then I can set my own well pump, up here, to pump from that cistern, to my own storage.Both pumps will be fitted with float switches, rather than pressure switches.Using probably at least 1-1/4" black poly pipe for the majority of the plumbing.The entire thing will be shut down and drained in the colder months, and we'll go to the backup barrels, and going to town to fill them.Any suggestions on how to set up the river end of things ?Any other suggestions ?..I'm not worried, I'm curious...You are always welcome at Quittintime

        1. mike585 | Jul 21, 2009 01:56am | #38

          What is the lowest elevation, relative to the river, that you can locate the lower pump and still provide elec power to it?

          1. User avater
            Luka | Jul 21, 2009 02:07am | #39

            That point, at about 5/8 of the way up... Is already pushing it...I'm not worried, I'm curious...You are always welcome at Quittintime

          2. mike585 | Jul 21, 2009 02:15am | #40

            You are going to need to lower the pump less than about 25 ft from the river.

        2. stewie | Jul 21, 2009 02:37am | #41

          Hi All Installation Report for free water from the river.. First , thanks for all your input. I have returned my pressure tank for a refund. I used a 1/2 HP Myers jet pump , 25' from the river , and about 8' above water level , with a 1" PVC intake. The foot valve is anchored with a brick , and elevated with a plastic jug. The electrical is a 240 V , 300' from the panel , and is # 10 wire. Draws about 4 amps. My on/off switch is at the top of the bank
          about 50' from the house. The 1 1/4" PVC line up the 75' elevation is 215' long to the pond (boat). I get about 8gal./minute. The pump for the sprinklers is a 1/2 HP Simer , 15' from the boat with a 1" see through plastic intake line @ $3.00/'. I ran 3/4" hose to impulse sprinklers front and back yards ( 4 sprinklers, as well as 3 hand held , and 3 soaker hoses , with Lee Valley Y turn on/offs. The front yard is 10' higher than the back yard and probably 125' to the boulevard from the pond (boat). I can run all 4 sprinklers and probably some soaker hoses , and the Myers river pump holds it own . Voila ....free water. Actually , it will take about 3 years to re-coup capital cost of about $1,400. Pumps were $300 each , $150 for 3/4" L.V. hoses , $125 for PVC , $150 for L.V. Y turn-offs , misc. fittings , foot-valves, wire for pumps , posts for switch and plug, .... The only problem I have so far , is the Myers pump at the river kicks out from over heating after about 15 min. on a hot day. The protective box I built is tight , and needs some air flow valves. The bonus , is fresh river water for the fish in the pond , with algae nutrients for the lawn. Now, if it wasn't for that blue heron , I'd still have my KOI. Trust this helps. Hopefully , I can supply pics in a week or so. Cheers, Stewie

  2. oldbeachbum | May 26, 2009 10:50pm | #3

    People tried that where I used to live and ran into 'permitting' problems with local officials.  Water rights were the issue and someone ratted out another and kind of started a Hatfield-McCoy thing.

    Don't wann'a burst anyone's good idea but today's world can be strange.

     

    I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits

    1. stewie | May 27, 2009 12:27am | #9

      Thanks for the heads up. I live between Hatfields and McCoys who now have an intruder (Mine was a vacant lot between them , so they had their own private park to share , till I intruded. :) I have checked with the MNR ( Ont.) and have permission for personal use H2) from the Muskoka River , so I am good. ( on this one )Stewie

  3. gfretwell | May 26, 2009 10:52pm | #4

    You are not talking about "lifting" and your pump will do fine set up as a shallow well pump (not jet). "Lift" is the distance from the river surface to the pump intake. "Pushing" up the hill is a lot for that pump, you will lose 30 PSI or so getting up the hill. If you put in a 30-50 switch it will dribble to a stop about when the cut in contracts close.
    You might be able to go 50-60 if the pump is pretty new but it is tough getting 60 out of a worn pump.
    It may still be usable if you experiment with the cut in and cut out on the switch.
    I suppose you could set it up without a pressure switch as long as you always have something open when the pump is on. You just need to be sure there is some water moving to keep the pump cool.

    1. stewie | May 27, 2009 12:34am | #11

      If the pump comes with a pressure switch , can it be by-passed , or do I just set it as high as it allows?? And open sprinklers first?Stewie

      1. gfretwell | May 27, 2009 03:09am | #18

        If the pump comes with a pressure switch , can it be by-passed , or do I just set it as high as it allows?? And open sprinklers first?There are 2 screws (nuts). One adjusts the cut in and cut out together that is usually the center. (20-40 becomes 40-60 etc)
        The other screw changes the range. (40-60 could be 50-60)

  4. Boats234 | May 26, 2009 11:01pm | #5

    like Junkhound said, stay away from garden hose for your suction side.

    Try to go with something rigid and a bit larger diameter to prevent collapse and starvation.

    With a pump only capable of 20' over your elevation, your only going to have 16.5 psi less whatever friction loss your going to get in 300 of garden hose.

    You might consider pumping to a cistern or some other reservoir. Otherwise the soaker hose might work but any sprinkler system won't be able pee 6"

    1. stewie | May 27, 2009 12:36am | #12

      So maybe I need a 2 HP with greater lift capacity. sprinklers gotta cover more than 6"Stewie

      1. Boats234 | May 27, 2009 12:50am | #14

        I would think a 1 hp would be fine. But you obviously need a greater output capacity.

        I thought a lot of the well jet pumps exceeded 100psi no problem.

        Go with a submerible pump and do away with the suction plumbing.

  5. User avater
    IMERC | May 26, 2009 11:12pm | #6

    careful....

    a lot of states have water rights clauses...

    can you pump water and not get fined or taxed into oblivian....

     

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!


    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

     

    "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

    1. stewie | May 27, 2009 12:38am | #13

      We have checked it out. Ont. Mnr allows personal use of the Muskoka River. :)Stewie

  6. Hackinatit | May 27, 2009 12:22am | #7

    Around here the corp of engineers would make an example of you. Installing ANYTHING without their permission is akin to taking on the mafia.

    Make sure you own the property that the outlet/pump are to be located.

    A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.

    1. junkhound | May 27, 2009 01:28am | #15

      corp of engineers would make an example of you. Installing ANYTHING corp of engineers would make an example of you.

      I thought to build a dam across the stream across my property for a small lake.

      If you think the corp is tough, try the state game dept.  Turned down peermit flat as they found 2 steelhead fry within 100 ft of where I wanted to put the dam.

      1. User avater
        Luka | May 27, 2009 02:17am | #16

        Can you work out a deal with them, if a fish ladder were worked in ?...Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime

        1. junkhound | May 27, 2009 06:34pm | #28

          Can you work out a deal with them, if a fish ladder were worked in

          I gots more money than you do, but not THAT type of $$$ involved.  Bypass flow involved would also wipe out any micro-hydro potential.

          1. User avater
            Luka | May 27, 2009 07:25pm | #29

            Whuf.The administrative costs hadn't occurred to me.In my scenario, it was as simple as the labor involved.But you're right. Here in Wa, they'd have you tied up for at least a decade, and half a million dollars, just to get to the point where the 'labor' starts....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime

      2. brucet9 | May 28, 2009 05:37am | #32

        Bring in a family of beavers?BruceT

  7. john7g | May 27, 2009 12:32am | #10

    If you're not going to get the supply pressures you want in the hose, try thinking about using the pump to fill a drum or sim resevoir and use a gravity feed system to deliver the H2O to the plants. 

  8. User avater
    BillHartmann | May 27, 2009 02:42am | #17

    I think that you are talking about the wrong kind of jet pumps.

    There are 2 forms. Shallow jet where the jet mounts directly on the pump.

    And deep well jet pumps. Those have two lines to the jet and the jet is done the well (river in this case).

    Part of the pump discharge is send down the well to the jet. It connects to a venturi and the water is pushed back up to the pump inlet. The suction from the venturi sucks in additional water.

    I only have experience with the shallow jet pumps. But performance quickly drops off as the suction lift is increased.

    And a pump can only have a lift of 15 - 20 ft on the suction side thus the need for the deep jet system.

    You need to get the total specs on the pump that you are looking at.

    "specs say it will lift H20 90'"

    Those kind of specs are probably the discharge pressure on the the pump and with zero or very little lift on the suction.

    Submersible pumps have 2 big differences. First the are submersed so that that there is no suction pressure.

    But the big difference is that they have multiple stages to develop the pressure needed.

    .
    William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
  9. [email protected] | May 27, 2009 04:04am | #19

    With the pump your described, the lift height, and line sizes, you won't get much flow, and less pressure. You probably won't have the volume and pressure required to run most sprinklers.

    I would suggest pumping to the fish pond, and using it as a reservoir for the sprinkler pump. That is part of why golf courses in dry ares have water hazards. It lets them fill during low use times for the water system, (during the day), and then run their sprinklers in the midnight to 5:00 am period. They don't have to pay as much for the water that way.

    1. TMagda | May 27, 2009 04:13am | #20

      Stewie,

      Are you the same Stewie from camaros.net?

      Tom

      1. stewie | May 27, 2009 02:42pm | #23

        No. And we have never met. My dream car was always a Corvette , not a camero. :) Stewie from Ont.

        1. TMagda | May 27, 2009 03:16pm | #24

          The "other" Stewie was from around Toronto and he offered me 1969 Z/28 once.

    2. stewie | May 27, 2009 03:47pm | #25

      I like your suggestion of pumping to the fish pond. The "fish pond" is a recycled 18' fiberglass boat that I rescued ( "you want it...we'll help you load it on a trailer") and had the builder plant in the yard. We created a small hill beside the boat and now have a stream that runs back over the bow so the H20 can return to the pond via a few well placed holes drilled in the bow by the windshield. I have two problems to solve. 1) green water and evaporation when the stream runs. Pumping directly to the pond , then out to the sprinkler system will solve both at once , as well as flow rate from the pump at the river. Brilliant , and thanks! And the fish?? They survived the winter ( Zone 4 , north of Toronto ) but I think a blue Heron got them a couple of weeks ago. But if I replace them , they will have fresh river water to enjoy. Stewie

  10. danno7x | May 27, 2009 04:45am | #21

    'Round here that is the type of system most waterfront people use, because they are seasonal and freezing is not an issue, its all drained every fall.

    Black Poly hose (its rigid and comes in a coil)  is what you need to run, no way a garden hose.   1 1/2 hp sounds good to me.  Is 70' your total lift?  1" inlet and 3/4 out, branch out 1/2" if desired. Put the pump 1/3 the way up the hill if possible. 

    You NEED at least a small pressure tank you could even put that up the hill under the camp or something, but youll need it.  Of course youll need the pressure switch.  30/50 is usually enough to do anything youll need, a little weak on showers for some.  But thats about all youll get out of most pumps consistantly. 

    The line going into the lake should connect to a rigid line like a galvized pipe and then a footvalve, which you also NEED.  The screen on the end of the footvalve is not enough protection when its in the open river like that wrap that screen in screen (like from a window) with wire to hold it, the water will still get through good enough

    1. stewie | May 27, 2009 04:06pm | #26

      I see your and others reasons for black poly intake. If I can get an attachment for a foot valve to the poly intake pipe , why do I need the galvanized add on
      Lee Valley has a quality 3/4" garden hose that will be easier to lay and conceal up the hill and across the yard than poly.
      I am now going to pump directly to the pond as per Jigs n fixtures suggestion , so don't see the need for a pressure tank. Why do I want pump 1/3 up the hill instead of at the rivers' edge? Total lift is (by my best est. 70') Stewie

  11. JHOLE | May 27, 2009 05:23am | #22

    I haven't read the responces yet.

    I've been kinda doing the same thing for about ten or fifteen years outta Lake Erie. My situation only has about 6' of head. I've played with all kinds /types of pumps. I got a pretty good system now.... but my next "tweek" is just around the corner.

    This will end up being a hobby, or a thorn in your a$$. I have chosen to make it a hobby - lots of soaked, pissed away afternoons - I am pretty good at laughing at myself. I've learned a ton.

    It aint gonna be easy and free - just be prepared...

    FWIW - ( not to be a party pooper) you may be surprised how many governmental agencies lay claim to that "free water". Stealth mechanicals are your friend.

    Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

    1. stewie | May 27, 2009 04:15pm | #27

      " It ain't going to be easy and free" Your warning is appreciated. I have learned to adopt a philosophy that if #### can happen , it probably will , and if I have made progress at the end of the day, then all is good. What do you use for your inlet pipe? My guess is you are working with a shallow / stony bottom? I have a steep / muddy shoreline so our solns. may differ. Stewie

      1. JHOLE | May 28, 2009 01:36am | #31

        I've used eveything under the sun. ( I'm a Junhound apprentice ).

        At this point i run a 2" flexible suction hose to a 2" pvc run ( about 50') that consists of my suction side. In the lake it is and has been all kinds of homemaqde filters.

        I'll try to get some pics as I'm setting up the system this year - I'll be changing it around anyway - the last free water tank i got started to leak at the end of last season. Want to come up with a post pump tank/semi gravity filter anyway.

        My setup is about 6' - 10' of lift, No head after pump ( all horizontal ). Pickup location adversities are shallow slope, sand, and air entrained water/surf.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

      2. [email protected] | May 29, 2009 04:44am | #33

        Stewie, you want the inlet line to be rigid, and as large as possible. You need to minimize the drag on the inlet side to keep the pump from cavitating. Basically, the temperature water boils at is dependent on the air pressure. The more resistance on the inlet pipe, and the higher the pump is above the water surface, the more likely the pump is to cavitate.

  12. Ray | May 27, 2009 07:53pm | #30

    Just an observaton; 

    Years ago, when I fought forest fires, we used 2 pumps.  One at the water's edge using a stiff discharge hose, then 50 - 100 feet up the hill, a smaller pump feeding the fire hose.  You would have to take your specs to a pump supplier to get them sized properly, but it might work out better.

  13. Piffin | May 29, 2009 02:32pm | #34

    You'll need a hard suction at the section from river to pump.

    Also, you need to find out what the law is in your area. Water rights rules in some states would preclude this and end you up in court.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. stewie | May 29, 2009 04:26pm | #35

      Thanks, I'm currently planning on a 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" poly pipe into the river. One of the plumbing shops in town has recommended/quoted me a 3/4 HP jet pump for $700.00 . Suggested it be wired 220 , rather than 110 ( this I can do). 70PSI at the pump is reduced to 35PSI at the top and will push 10 to 18gal/minute. A sprinkler apparently uses 5gal/m. so 3 sprayers at a time would work. If I used the "boat" pond as reservoir , at 800 gals. , I could fill the pond in about an hour , but would need a second , smaller sump pump to run the sprinklers. Don't know sprinkler capacity of a typical sump pump.
      Maybe pay for a good volume pump and just water directly with good flow. Minister of Natural Resources in Ont. has confirmed personal use of river water is O.K. But can't bottle and sell it. We cdns. seem to have a thing about selling our water :) Stewie

      1. gfretwell | May 29, 2009 05:57pm | #36

        We have a similar situations on our domestic pumps. We have aireators to remove SO2 with about 150 gallons of storage right off the well and a house pump. You can gave a pretty small well pump because the only one you see the flow/pressure of is the house pump. I would put the big pump on top of the hill and get a smaller pump for the bottom that has good head numbers. That can pump all day to get the pond full them you irrigate from there. Just be sure to have float switched for full (turn off the river pump) and empty (turn off the irrigation pump).

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