Q?: Property lien based on judgements
Hudson Valley Carpenter
| Posted in Business on
Are liens on real estate usually granted when a judgement is obtained against the property owner? The judgement in this case is against a former tenant who may own property in the same state and county where the judgement was granted. Specifically Los Angeles County, CA.
Replies
Lien laws are different state by state.
Dunno bout CA.
In Ohio, a lien can be filed by just about anyone, for just about anything, with or without a judgement, with or without just cause.
Oh, and with or without due diligence to be sure you're liening the right person or property.
(When I sold my old home there, the sale couldn't close because some dentist in a nearby town had put a lien on the property. His claim was ostensibly for unpaid dentistry fees. But the paitent that was his, was not me.)
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Are liens on real estate usually granted when a judgement is obtained against the property owner>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In NY you have to go back to court and prove that the judgement must be collected and you have had no luck in getting satisfaction. So the answer is no, it is not automatic.
I suspect that CAL has something simular.
Instead of a lien, how about wage garnishment?
Instead of a lien, how about wage garnishment?
He's probably employed by an old friend who is helping him to hide his income, by making him a sub of some kind. I suspect he's also driving a leased vehicle.
It is up to you to fine a bank account to attach.
By the way, if you fine a way to collect, let me know. I have a bunch of judgements fro m my time as a landlord.
It is up to you to fine a bank account to attach.
Huuummmmmm. I do have a couple of friends in the banking business. I'll let you know what they say.
The only public records are from the county recorder's office and the assessor's office. I've checked both of those, found only the lien we have against the tenant.
His former (probably current) boss's business has two old liens on record, for much more than what the tenant owes us. That business owns property but there are no liens against it. That's where my original questions came from.
Anyway, I'm going to call the companies which hold those liens tomorrow, to see what they've done, and to ask why they haven't obtained a lien on the property.
You might check with what a private eye would cost. I am not sure, but I think that for a few hundred that can access to computerised files and other data that is not easy to come by. Might find some assets.A google on private investigator asset search will give some ideas..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
You might check with what a private eye would cost. I am not sure, but I think that for a few hundred that can access to computerised files and other data that is not easy to come by. Might find some assets.
Yep, I agree. That's the last move, after we've exhausted all the public records and on line skip tracing methods. And after I've checked with my compadres in the banking business and taken some photos of license plates in the company parking lot.
Do a search for "skip tracers" This what these people do. Find where people have their money/property.
I remember an on air radio host said that you can find them in attorney trade magazines
HVC -
One thing that seems to get the debtor's attention is a deposition at the courthouse. As a judgment creditor, you may have the right to take his deposition. That means he is sworn under oath and you can ask all the questions about where he works, how often, where his money goes, what his social security number is, etc. You could also be entitled to see copies of tax returns and other paperwork.
Failure to show, or failure to answer may be considered as contempt of court - go right to the judge. You need to check the local (state) laws, and it might pay to hire a lawyer for the deposition. Pay them by the hour and get a lawyer that does collections AND knows how to do courtroom work. There are two different "specialties" and you need someone with skill in both.
Don K.
Another interesting twist. Thanks..
My understanding is that while you may obtain a lien against the property, it can simply be discharged in bankruptcy if the property is the defendant's principal residence. A junior lien can be a pretty shaky position.
My understanding is that while you may obtain a lien against the property, it can simply be discharged in bankruptcy if the property is the defendant's principal residence. A junior lien can be a pretty shaky position.
Thanks David. Makes sense that liens aren't very effective ways to collect money.
No Way. If they were, every creditor would do it.
You judgement is against the person - not the property. To enforce the judgement, you need to go to the court that issued the judgement. Now, that court may in turn force the sale of property, etc ... but it's the court that does that, not you.
In NY, a judgment becomes a lien when it is docketed (a certain filing procedure, with a fee, of course).
The lien is valid against any real estate that the defendant owns in that county. If the defendant owns property in other counties, the lien must be docketed in those counties too.
Having the lien and enforcing it are 2 different things. You would need to have the local Sheriff enforce it by selling the property. Typically, it gets a bit involved with paperwork, not impossible, just real tedious. More fees too.
IIRC, the Lien is valid for 10 years, and can be renewed for another 10.
The moral of the story is do your homework. See if there's a Debtor/creditor law in Cal. Check the internet. Then check with the local court and/or Sheriff to see what the procedure is. There are usually some clerks that don't want to be bothered, but if you are persistent and courteous, you can get it done. It's kind of like dealing with the building department. :-) All of this becomes meaningless if the man owing the money can secrete his assets, or if he doesn't have any.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thanks Don, We've been through some of the stuff you mentioned and expect to be dealing with more of it before this is settled.
Hey Hudson, how much we talking about?
In my life I have written off large sums, that may have been colectable, but didn't like the games that it played with my head. I would rathe figure out a way to make money, than figure out how to collect from a deadbeat.
I have employed collection agencies and collection lawyers. Far as I can tell, if a person doesn't want to pay, they will figure a bullet proof way not to!
Hey Hudson, how much we talking about?
With interest, somewhere over $10K. It's enough so that, if we can find a car or a bank account, it's worth the effort to collect.
I'm not in favor of giving it to a collection agency, if that means they get 80% or more.
I'm gonna call the two companies that have judgements on his boss's property, to see what they've discovered and to ask if they want split the cost of a PI.
No, you have to prepare and submit for signing by the Clerk, an "Abstract of Judgment" Thats a common form. Fill it out and have the Clerk sign it, there is a $13.50 charge. Then record it with the Country Recorder, another $25 charge or so. Make sure you have DL or SS numbers. That Abstract, once recorded, creates a lien on the real property owned by the Judgment Debtor in the County where the Abstract was recorded.
If you want to lien other personal property, cars, bank accounts, receivables, etc., then you have to levy on them specifically. Get a Writ of Execution, and serve it on the person or entity holding the property, e.g., bank etc. This is fairly statute specific, so you really have to know what you are doing, and there are other forms to fill out such as a Notice of Levy and a Memorandum of Garnishee.
What are you trying to levy against?
Edited 8/31/2009 10:54 am ET by Scooter1
Hey, thanks for that specific information. I hope we'll be able to use it.
What are you trying to levy against?
Haven't found anything yet. I checked the county recorder's office computer and the assessor's office, using his name. Only found the judgement we have against him.
Do you have any suggestions about finding other assets?
How to find Assets:
1. Self Help. Yeah, that can be useful and cheap, but its hard to find specific real property, and the government agencies ain't gonna help. Google might work for you, but I don't find it very useful.
2. Asset Locator. What we do (I'm a real estate lawyer), is retain a private investigator who can locate bank account numbers and real property by deeds, usually at a cost of $1,000 per individual. Yeah, you can use self help or Lexis-Nexis for cheap, but in my experience, its not worth it.
3. Lexis-Nexis. For about $50, you can obtain a Lexis-Nexis report which lists real property (not terribly accurate) and public filings which, if you are smart and know how to read these reports, might work for you. I sometimes use them, when I'm on the cheap.
4. Fire and Forget. Your Abstract, if properly filled out (with exact names and SS and DL Numbers) will lien Real Property, and most people refinance or sell every 5-8 years, so its often better to just record and let time work for you.
PM me if you need specific information.
Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Wow! Thanks very much. We'll certainly use all your advice and I'll let you know how it goes.
BTW, It warms the cockles of my heart to see the W.C. Fields quote. I roomed with a guy in college who introduced me to Fields when there was a late night festival of his films on TV. We laughed like loons, then tried to imitate Field's voice for a couple of weeks thereafter. I'm still pretty good at it, if I do say so myself.
"Godfrey Daniel!" "I think I'll take a short walk and have a tall beer". "Ah, what symetrical digits. Allow me to avail myself of a second helping."
Edited 8/31/2009 11:51 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter