As a roofing contractor I rarely if ever have to specify lumber species for roof decking. Most of the older homes here that we generally work on were originally decked in #2 southern yellow pine 1×8. sadly no longer available
Most folks in the area will simply use the cheapest #3 ,1×8 available as sheeting when making repairs etc.
We have been using #2,spruce,pine ,fir from the most commonly available yards. Frankly the lumber yards kinda snicker if I ask about availability of a better species/grade.
well last week I recieved some “#2” that absolutely disgusted me—-worse than the #3 that we swore off using 15-20 years ago.
so I have been checking around with some better yards and am informed my choices are—-
#2 spf
#2 ponderosa pine(less than the spf—-looking quite a bit better,better yard but out of the way)
#2 white pine( much better yard—much betterquality, also less than the spf
#2-#3 cedar—- more knots but MUCH tighter than the spf,softer,lighter,also weaker? Very good yard—most expensive but quite manageable
So—the question is—-what’s the best choice for this application since I am essentially gonna rule out the un-acceptable spf. Cost is immaterial in this price range and I will be stocking modest supplies of it myself to make access more convenient.
Replies
We can still get #1 or #2 SYP down here on the bayou. Can get cypress for $1 BF. Why not rip up some cdx?
KK
I won't use an 8inch rip of cdx because it will be way to bouncy. In fact ,I really don't ever want to use less than a half sheet.
Actually----I was kinda hoping someone my tell me of some out of the way place up here that does stock something like syp or cypress. Cost is really not much of an issue----up to a certain point. $3/foot might be a little pricey for this application.
I will look for the flooring as Mike Smith suggested. I am assumming he is talking about the stuff that was laid on the diagonal as sub flooring in a lot of the houses here. I have one other local yard to try---then I am gonna have to investigate the outta town stuff.
Maybe I will have to ship a load up from wherever kkearney is.
About 50% of my interest in this has developed over the last few years because I can see that I could stock modest quantities of a better material for my companies use-----and use that fact as a strong selling point-----verifiable evidence of our commitment to using the best available materials on the customers job.
In the interim----I think I am gonna try the ponderosa pine---whatever that is-----untill someone suggests something better that I can get locally.
My thanks to David Doud for the tulip poplar suggestion---but that idea had already been mentioned by one of the lumber salesmen----and it's limitations in this application pointed out by the same salesman.
My thanks to David Doud for the tulip poplar suggestion---but that idea had already been mentioned by one of the lumber salesmen----and it's limitations in this application pointed out by the same salesman.
Tulip poplar is/was the traditional wood used for that application here. Exactly what is going under the copper of my next one. There's still some original on the ballustrade at Monticello. Limitations? Only that you don't want to put it where it can't drain.
If you really want to plan for a leaky roof with continuously saturated decking, go with white oak or walnut (heartwoods only).PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I appreciate the info Tom----but I think its possible that we aren't talking about the same species?
I do remember a few years ago ---a guy had an article in FHB about building wooden storm windows---which he built out of poplar. He then took a bit of a tongue lashing from all the people pointing out how poorly poplar would hold up in an exterior application.
Like I said---this is something a little beyond my usual level of specification.
BTW----I don't really believe this stuff will generally get wet from above. It would be covered in icegaurd It's most usual location is as bottom board of a roof with a fair sized overhang,exposed rafter tails,no fascia board,sometimes covered mostly with aluminum soffit---often uncovered. Almost always---the lower inch or so will get repeated splashings from the gutter on the BOTTOM side----even though drip edge is used.
Well---I am off to try out my new brake which I unexpectedly had to buy today
want to see someone use 1x's for roof decking? Go to Oklahoma City. I went to visit my mother last thanksgiving and seen a whole subdivision where they were using that stuff.
but I think its possible that we aren't talking about the same species?
David Doud and I are talking about the same tree, liriodendron tulipifera, with the same understanding that there is no problem using it externally as long as there is drainage.
With a removeable storm window, often the bottom rail stays wet for prolonged periods. I wouldn't use it there. For my insulated glass windows, however, I used it for all but the sills. Works fine these 15 yrs later. Just like the local barn siding and much of the historic trim, Monticello included.
Splashing is no problem, staying wet is. My poplar gets wet every time it rains. The only "protection" I use is boiled linseed oil, to keep it from weathering.
For roof decking, there's no reason to believe it won't last as long as the copper, given adequate ventilation. I'm not coming up with anything new here, simply following what has passed the test of time. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
it sounds like you have two basic circumstances - one is an area that has been damaged/neglected/poorly flashed such that moisture has entered and the decking has deteriorated, another is a deteriorated board (mainly the bottom edge) along the drip edge of the roof, where splashing/wind/capillary action has resulted in enough repeated wetting events over the 50 to 80 year life of the house to result in a rotten edge -
in the first circumstance, you could re-deck with any of several species (except the knotty, nasty, crapwood), or plywood and not have any problems, because you will be remedying the underlying problem -
in the second circumstance, removing and replacing the original deteriorated board with one of the same dimension and quality results in a simple clean fix that returns a crisp original edge to the roof - - further, in some cases this board is exposed on the bottom side such that appearance is a consideration -
how am I doing so far?
what you seek is a 7 5/8" wide by 3/4" thick, S4S, softwood board containing no more than a few, small tight knots - it'd be nice if it were the same species as the original...
first thing I would do is acertain what species I was dealing with - Jon Arno over in 'Knots' is the resident guru -
once you find out, you'll have a good idea where it came from, and with this wonderful tool of the internet, can probably make a contact in that area, and with some amount of effort, stir up a source - -
or look into alternative species - - if you want a species more rot resistant than the original, I come up with cypress, redwood, walnut, white oak, treated SYP, and maybe/probably untreated SYP -
of these species, white oak is too hard for this application IMO - walnut, cypress and SYP are probably quite a bit harder than the original, tho nailable - redwood sure would be nice, might be availible, price and ethical issues would have to be investigated -
here's a resource to help you start a search http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/sawdry.pl
and I would suggest you not write off the poplar - I can't recommend the commecial product, but you should be able to come up with some local material that is straight grained heartwood for a reasonable price that will serve your purpose well - it would not need to be KD, if you have a couple of months stacked and stickered in a dry location...
David,
thank you for your time and efforts David.
You have assessed the situation well.
I will consider the poplar----however I feel it will create more problems than it will solve. There is not a strong tradition of using it for this application in this area. availability is a minor ,though important issue.True---or untrue---their is a lot of anectdotal evidence as to the possible un-suitability of poplar for this application in this area.It would not be a strong sales tool.
untreated syp solves a lot of problems for me however.
It was the species most often used on the houses I am usually working on. Standard sizes will match up well in replacement situations.It's historical track record in this application in this area show me that it works very well for this application. In fact it is noticeably superior to the 1x commonly available to me. i believe it will be easily salable to my customers-------the only downside is availability. Local yards have not exactly demonstrated a willingness to order this in for me.Even if I do secure a bunk---it presents some storage problems---though not unsolvable ones.Abunk however at my consumption rates will present itself as a lifetime supply----in fact I will probably be retired before I consume it all.
So---I am gonna look for a yard in say southern ohio,western pa or west va----which i can drive to, pick up several years worth supply and return home in asingle day------assuming I can't find a more local source.
Well folks,
I did finally locate a source---kinda
It's about 45 minutes away in a little town that time forgot.
I pretty well cleaned em out
they are perfectly willing to special order exactly what I want in----but that must wait until spring. their minimum special order is about 3 times what I could reasonably use /store at this time. they tell me in the spring that they will be happy to order in what I need, sell me what I want---and that in the spring time they will have no trouble selling the rest themselves. Cool
BTW every other lumber yard closer to home demonstrated zero interest in getting this stuff for me.
also BTW, the #3 white pine these guys had was about 10 times better than the #2 I have been getting stuck with in town.the boards I looked at as #3 had the largest knots about the size of a dime--and very tight.
Mike Smith-----when I looked at some CLEAN syp 1x6 I remembered that I have seen something quite similar used as flooring down on the North carolina outer banks---really held up to fishermen tracking sand all over it.Never seen it used as finished floor up here though.
Can you share where you've located this supplier? I've been struggling paying for #1 Select pine that'll have knots the size of quarters every foot. I'm in New England and willing to drive for quality.
Thanks
Mark
Lodi Lumber
111 Wean St. P.O. Box 9
Lodi, Ohio 44254-009
phone 330-948-1311
fax 330-948-1613
I bought a couple hundred feet on weds.---used it up friday---.
cost me more than TWICE as much to re-stock with inferior product at a closer yard on Saturday
Please remember---I am buying #2----I have no idea what's up with #1 and better----I can't be trusted with stuff that good.
Thanks. I'm headed to South Dakota tomorrow, so I may stop by and get a trailer full.
Mark
you might want to call 1st and see if they have what you are interested in.
for what YOU are looking for( As opposed to what I am looking for) ----ya might try Terry Lumber in Peninsula, Ohio 330-657-2811. They are known for having some of the nicer solid trim material around here.
stephen... it may have been used as sub flooring in some of the rougher grades, but here, SYP is a finished floor... kind of a poor man's hardwood..
we've laid a lot of it in 2d floor bedrooms, both the 1x6 T&G , and the 1x8 T&G..
shouldn't be much of a problem getting a lift shipped in, and the price should be right in the quantity..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Of the four choices listed, give Hoss a call and get some of that Bonanza wood. I wouldn't consider any of the others for roof decking. I'm surprised you can't get #2 syp...it's easily available here in all sizes. The car siding I'm putting on the ceiling is #1 syp, the pattern isn't available in #2.
Do it right, or do it twice.
stephen, we get SYP in flooring.. they stock 1x6 t&g and 1x8 t&g.. look into that.. it would make great roof sheathing if you don't mind paying a little more..
also , of course... all of our pt is SYP.. we can get 1x6 & 1x8 SE in that too..
another thought is Primed finger joint... we use that for appearance sheathing if the roof deck is going to show , like on a porch ceiling
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 10/13/2003 10:11:12 PM ET by Mike Smith
well, I wood mizer my decking to my standards - you might check into who is sawing locally, often they have machinery to dress the material also - I usually use poplar -
other than that, if you want technical answers to your questions, post this over in 'KNOTS' and get Jon Arno to answer...
I always thought poplar was a bad choice for exterior applications?
Just curious as to your thoughts?
Edit: I realize it is covered with the roofing material, I'm thinking more in the case of a failure in the shingles or other material and the resulting damage from water.
Edited 10/14/2003 1:25:51 AM ET by CAG
Liriodendron Tulipifera Linnaeus has been historically used in construction throughout the lower midwest - it's utility is such that it has been declared the 'state tree of Indiana' - - the water powered mill the locals have been restoring is sided in tulip - 147 years and counting - I think most of the modern negative experience comes from two factors; the large specimens have been harvested, and modern supplies consists of boards with lots of sapwood - - and there seems to be quite a bit of mis-identified material out there -
that said, I agree that it is not the most rot resistant hardwood - oriented as board siding, it weathers well, with little deterioration if it dries quickly - if ya got a roof leak, which is likely to remain sodden for long stretches of time, yes, it will rot - - under that situation, short of treated material, I don't know what will hold up very long...
Are you doing whole roofs with boards versus plywood? I didn't know that was still done anywhere. Haven't seen a new roof done that way in my lifetime.
Or are you just doing repairs on old roofs?
A cynic smells the flowers and then looks for the casket.
Boss,
We rarely ,if ever, do any new construction work. simply no money in it for us.
We did do a 140 square roof for a new church building this spring----but ONLY because it was MY church.
Most of the houses we work on were built 1920's----1950's vintage.
following roof tear-off we MAY need to replace some damaged 1x8 sheeting(occasionally other sizes) replacing 200 lineal feet would be an exceptional amount of wood used. Usually less than 15-20 lineal feet needs replaced and quite often NONE needs replaced.
sooooo----I am looking for a source for primarily 1x8's that would be of comparable DURABILITY and usability of the rest of the deck. since we are talking about minimal quantities consumed per job----cost is a negligible factor.
I can easily store about a years projected volume in my "shop"----but if minimum purchase requirements meant more space was needed----well then I think I have access to 2 other possible facilities where I could likely arrange storage.
But---ideally--- I would find somewhere within 50 miles radius of me stocking what I need----so that I wouldn't have to stock more than several hundred feet at a time.
Part of my interest is from genuine disgust at what I have had to use lately-----and part is from the realization that this is something ADDITIONALLY that I can point to as a verifyable example of our attempt to bring the best available products and materials suited to the customers project.
BTW---I did stumble across some really sweet 5/4 syp stock yesterday and some equally sweet syp 2x stock----just no 1x stock. I have my eye on the 5/4 stock for barge board and fly rafter replacements since they will match existing common sizes here.