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Question about open riser stairs

MatD | Posted in General Discussion on September 14, 2007 08:39am

I’d like to fab up some open riser, solid stringer stairs for my new house.  I’m aware of code issues, etc. and I have a plan to work within code.  My question relates to the solid stringers. 

I got a price on architectural LVLs that knocked me out of my chair.  My current thought is to use solid 2x12s and carefully wrap them with some birch, et al. plywood for a finished look.  From there, I wanted to use metal stair angle hangers powdercoated black for the treads.

Has anyone taken on a similar thing who can share some pics or advice?  Thanks!

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  1. BillBrennen | Sep 14, 2007 09:29pm | #1

    MatD,

    2x12's wrapped in plywood will cause you grief. The ply is stable, the 2x12's are not, and will shrink a lot as they dry (unless they are pre-aged for several years in a dry location).

    It would be better to use some sort of engineered lumber for your core. What are "architectural LVL's"?

    Bill

    1. MatD | Sep 14, 2007 09:32pm | #2

      I've never actually seen an architectural grade LVL before, but I guess they have the same strength characteristics of a regular LVL but with a finish grade face to them (i.e. like a cabinet grade plywood).

      1. BillBrennen | Sep 15, 2007 12:25am | #3

        Thanks. I've never seen one , either. But it DOES SOUND EXPENSIVE! Just the careful packaging and handling could double the end-user cost, it seems to me.How does the cost compare with skinning a regular LVL with cabinet plywood?Bill

      2. davidmeiland | Sep 15, 2007 06:16am | #4

        Exactly how much are those architectural LVLs?

  2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Sep 15, 2007 02:55pm | #5

    I've made a number of sets of open stairs using KD douglas fir 16' 2X12s for both stringers and treads.  I've mortised the stringers 1/2" deep, by making several cuts with a skill saw, then cleaning it up with a 1" chisel.  Then I drilled for three screws per tread to be covered by maple dowel plugs, glued. 

    Sand the stringers and treads before assembly.  Sand the plugs after assembly, then apply an analine dye stain.  Coat with polyurethane, additional coats on treads. 

    The analine dyes bring out several colors in doug fir, making it look like a hardwood.  Very handsome finish with clear polyurethane.  I've made the same type of stairs using more expensive stock but, in the end, prefered the DF stained finish.

    This is a simple and economical method using commonly available framing lumber and basic carpentry tools. A belt sander is a significant time saver. 

     

    Edited for clarity.



    Edited 9/15/2007 1:07 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter

  3. VaTom | Sep 15, 2007 03:45pm | #6

    Is there a reason you can't use your preferred wood for the stringers?

    My one, uninspected, experience was with hickory.  I dovetailed the treads into the stringers.  Looked great with no risers to block the view out the windows.  Sold the building 20 yrs ago but I understand it's still in use.  No surprise, it was solid and lovely, simple to construct.

    PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

    1. mike_maines | Sep 15, 2007 04:03pm | #7

      Dovetailed treads into stringers...WOW...that must have looked good.

      Any chance you have a picture of it?

      Wow.  I need to do that.

    2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Sep 15, 2007 08:11pm | #8

      Yeah Tom, I'd like to see that job too. 

      If you don't have some photos, this would be a good time to go back and take a few for your rocking chair days and your many admirers on BT.

      1. VaTom | Sep 15, 2007 09:07pm | #9

        Thanks guys, but it was the simplest way I could figure out to assemble the stairs.  I'm not a carp, just shop work.  And I'm guessing you weren't thinking sliding (french) dovetails?  Simple to cut, incredibly strong.  Suits me. 

        No pics, but from the front the treads looked like a butt joint to the stringer.  No visible attachment.  From the back, each tread showed one dovetail at the stringers.  The slot stopped a little short of the front of the stringer.  Going for minimal appearance, I tried 4/4 treads, which had too much bounce even though they were only 30" wide.  I stiffened them with 1 1/2" cleats biscuited midway on the tread.  Sort of a T beam.  Then heavy folks had no problem.  4/4 stringers were fine.  Hickory's got great strength.   

        Very simple router jig to cut the dovetails.  I've done it for a lot of furniture, particularly built-ins where I needed the strength of the joint to do something otherwise almost impossible.

        One client, a lumber buyer for a retail yard, loved #1 common walnut for its defects.  Wanted a shelf to hold up 8' of vinyl record collection, without a back.  Had walnut walls he didn't want to hide.  Asked if I could build a backless upper shelf unit that only had supports at the ends.  Sure, no problem.

        We showed up to install something that looked really gangly.  Solid top, one fixed shelf, the side pieces, and 2 more verts between the shelf and the top.  Screwed the whole shebang into the ceiling trusses and the base, no holes in his walnut wall.  Client was skeptical so we started loading records.  8', apparently unsupported, not even a back.  Bowed about 1/32" between the verts, which I'd told him to expect.

        The vertical members were (sliding) dovetailed into the fixed shelf and the top, suspending the fixed shelf from the roof trusses.  Which if you followed all this, congratulations.  Was easier to do, than explain.

        I used sliding dovetails here for floor joists into beams in one of my outbuildings.  Building inspector walked away shaking her head.  Did I mention I like dovetails?  That's also what my diagonal braces (post-to-beam) are.  Strong, simple.  KISS. 

          PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

        1. mike_maines | Sep 15, 2007 09:40pm | #11

          You're right, I was picturing hand-cut pins and tails making a clean edge from the tread to a cut stringer.

          Still, even nicer that you took the time to do that.  Sliding dovetails are tricky to fit right. 

          1. VaTom | Sep 15, 2007 10:13pm | #12

            Sliding dovetails are tricky to fit right. 

            You think?  I cut the slots first, simple jig.  To get a snug fit, dependent on the wood and the length of the joint, I've found it easy to get the right adjustment, whether using a router fence or shimming a jig.  One practice joint generally does it.  You do want a sharp 1/2" shank dovetail bit and ample power. 

            Router table's another option that I've used for smaller pieces when I had many to cut.  That's when you really appreciate using the good fence from your tablesaw, with micro-adjustments.

            A tapered sliding dovetail is somewhat more complicated.

            Maybe you just need more practice.  Doesn't seem at all tricky to me.  I still don't know an easier way to make stairs.  But that probably has to do with my lack of practice.  <G>  PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          2. mike_maines | Sep 15, 2007 10:26pm | #13

            Last ones I did was when I built my dad an end table about 24" square.  I wanted the joints tight, but when they got about 20" in they got REAL tight...and I couldn't go back.

            So, yeah, for me they've been tricky.  Now I just pocket screw everything ;-)

          3. VaTom | Sep 15, 2007 10:48pm | #14

            LOL... You won't forget that anytime soon.   

            Yeah, 24" is a long one.  Guess you didn't use that practice joint I mentioned.  Gotta be full-sized or it's worthless.  You already know how I learned that little lesson.

            I'm not fond of steel fasteners.  Discovered way too many with a nice chisel.

            Hijack: If it makes you feel any better, I failed 3 times before figuring out how to clamp up this same-sized radiused table top.  Didn't have much hair before ...  This table's almost entirely off the lathe.  Have had a lot of fun with split turnings.

              PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          4. mike_maines | Sep 15, 2007 10:55pm | #15

            That's cool.  I guess it would take a pretty big router bit to make that radius!  I haven't tried split turnings, I'm pretty green on the lathe.

            Practice joint...I'll have to remember that....

            Hijack alert:  I'm extremely interested in pursuing "your" method of building houses...do you think Hait's book is the best place to start learning?

            Sorry to the OP for the detour...back to stairs....

          5. VaTom | Sep 15, 2007 11:54pm | #16

            With all due respect to the OP, who's not around this afternoon...

            Green is good on a lathe.  Wet, but easy to turn.  Oh, you meant you, not the wood...  <G>  Lathe and bandsaw are my favorites.  Both here are large.  Bought a powerlift truck to move my bandsaw here from Denver.

            Hait's book is the primer, explains the heating/cooling system.  But that has absolutely nothing to do with "how" I chose to build my place.  I copied commercial construction techniques 'cause they were readily available, engineerable, and cheap.  Probably you've seen me tout here how my client house appraised 50% higher than construction cost, creating instant equity.  Which obviously was not entirely due to the shell.  Owner spent a lot of ebay time buying components.

            Recently had a large west coast concrete contractor (and a PAHS rescuer) plead with me to author my version of PAHS.  Found my application of commercial construction most interesting.  Maybe someday.  Still not quite sure anybody needs a book to figure it out.

            I ignored Hait's architecture, which was more along Cloud's line.  Cloud is about to see his first PAHS design built, in the midwest.  PAHS can look like about anything you can imagine.  Probably including your house.   

            If/when you read the book, you'll see how far I diverged from Hait's PAHS plan.  And my performance suffers accordingly.  My 13º annual swing to his 7º.  Still pretty easy to live with.  I know how to tweak my place (mostly window coverings), just haven't bothered.      PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          6. mike_maines | Sep 16, 2007 01:52am | #17

            Yeah, I'm green, and a little yellow for not doing more turning.  My lathe is at my FIL's house.  I don't have space here and he thought he'd want to try turning.

            I've followed the threads on your house, in fact it's one of only a few I've bookmarked, I just couldn't remember if you had concluded that Hait was a good place to start or not.  The aesthetics of my house will probably be different from yours and Clouds, but with elements of both. 

            Does Hait's book have pictures?  Graphs and tables?  That's really what I need.  More information to get ideas from and to make decisions with.

            OK, enough sidetracking.  I'll start a thread on this when I get closer to making real plans.  Just getting started now.

             

          7. VaTom | Sep 16, 2007 04:18pm | #19

            Some drawings and graphs.  I could wish the book was better written, but it was adequate for me to make the investment.  Failure really isn't possible, only degrees of success.  Read Nick Pine's review: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/haitbookreview.htm

            Absolutely, don't get caught up in anybody's architecture.  My place was designed as a future furniture shop.  Frank Gehry's Santa Monica house was the form a local GC wanted for his PAHS.  No problem.  Taj Mahal?  Yeah, I'd like to work on that.  PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

          8. mike_maines | Sep 17, 2007 04:24am | #20

            Thanks Tom.  IIRC you didn't use the earth tubes?  Sounds like they are for short-term adjustments in temperature, like auxiliary heat/cooling?

            I WAS thinking I would build a PAHS Taj Mahal.  Guess that wasn't original enough ;-)

          9. VaTom | Sep 17, 2007 07:29am | #21

            Not really.  Earth tubes are a large part of Hait's program.  He built in an arid climate.  Va isn't and condensation with fears of subsequent fungal growth kept me away.  I had no idea how PAHS would work without, but decided to give it a try.  How bad could it be?  Likely better than any other house in the neighborhood.

            Came out pretty well.  But I do use an active ventilation system that's avoided with earth tubes, a distinct drawback for me.  I know of nobody who's used earth tubes in a humid climate.  UV air cleansing would work.  Safe passive dehumidification is the holy grail for a humid climate.  Comfortable temperature is the easy part.

            Another approach is to use earth tubes to alter the mass temp without running the air into the house.  A guy in Spokane has developed a slightly different approach based on that, uses high temp storage which reduces the storage mass.  Not passively.  And he won't tell non-clients quite how it works.  The one time he and I compared performance, when climate-corrected my house (with sub-Hait performance) was better than his.  

            I've outlined earth tubes, not connected to the house, where there either isn't enough surplus house heat to adequately heat the mass, or not enough winter to adequately cool the mass.  Remember, it's a heating and/or cooling system.  That'll work in about any climate, but is better tweaked.  The mass could care less if it's heating or cooling.  As with any heating/cooling system, you want to look at demand and supply.

            Currently a discussion on the passive heating/cooling forum about what happens when you remove a great deal of water daily with earth tubes.  There's heat transfer involved.  Pretty sure it's not a large issue, but I haven't seen numbers.  Much depends on where you put the water.

            I'm still learning too.  Glad you're interested.  Let me know when the Taj gets started.  <G>  I know Bo http://www.midcoast.com/~bo/index.html would like to get involved.  Even if I never did get around to writing up my PAHS perspective for his web site. 

            Just today, told someone in the midwest looking for help that I'd travel for an interesting enough project.  Pretty sure he just needs consultation.  We'll be talking.  

             PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

      2. User avater
        CaptainMayhem | Sep 15, 2007 09:07pm | #10

        The DF 2x12 stringer with let- in (dadoed)2x12 treads is , in my opinion, the best bang for the buck. The DF takes a good stain and a heavy coat of urethane(with added sand on the treads). Quick and a heck of a lot cheaper than any engineered lumbers..Call it finish framing. 

  4. mike_maines | Sep 16, 2007 01:54am | #18

    You could make your own box beam, with 2x4's top and bottom, then wrap the whole thing in plywood.  Add another 2x4 in the center for mass.

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