I will be staining several pine french doors next week and had some quick questions to ask. The doors say to use a coat of shellac on top first, last time I used shellac I seem to remeber it being white, and since I will be using sikkens cetol 1 and cetol 23 on the doors I don’t think white shellac is an option.
1) is shellac necessary on pine doors?
2) is sikkens cetol a good choice for exterior/interior pine doors?
Thanks for any help in advance!
Built from locally sawn hemlock, this functional outdoor feature uses structural screws and metal connectors for fast, sturdy construction.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Before you stain any pine you should use a sealer of some sort. Minwax makes a prestain sealer for this. Because of the grain structure, pine and other types of woods (especially soft woods), absourb stains very unevenly causing unsightly blotching. A sealer evens out the playing field, or in this case the staining field.
I see no reason why white shellac wouldn't work. If you're buying the shellac in the liquid form right in the can, I would cut it another 25% for a better absourbtion, let it completely dry, (4 hours depending), sand lightly with a 220 grit and you're good to start staining.
I use whats called "conditioner" by Minwax. Goes on like water. It's no biggie to put on at all. Keeps the soft woods from coming out blotchy
Alfred E. Newman for president (we'd be better off)
Pine does absorb stain unpredictably, and can blotch. The minwax conditioner works by filling the grain with liquid, reducing (and hopefully evening) the absorption. I like it, but you have to apply the stain while it is still wet - it has very little solid content, so it doesn't seal the wood. Once it dries it doesn't do anything to reduce absorption.
If you use the shellac, you'll seal the wood - it's called a wash coat. I like to thin the shellac 50-70% with alcohol for a wash coat. However, once the grain is sealed, the stain will just sit on top, it wont soak in at all - if your not spraying the stain, its tough to keep the it even. If you've got spray equipment, this works well, but practice on scrap until your sure you can get an even coat of stain.
I'd suggest that you use the Minwax conditioner. Its easy to do, and the results should be acceptable. My preferred alternative is to either us orange shellac or add dye to blond shellac to get the color I want, and apply a couple of thinned coats until I like the color. Shellac works with just about any topcoat. It's a little more work than the conditioner and stain option, but I think the results are worth it.
I personally would never use the Minwax sealers/presealers, I'd use shellac.
I don't know what you mean by "white" shellac, was it tinted?
You can get shellac in clear, orange, garnet..... depending on what your putting on for stain I'd just use clear or orange, they seam to be the most readily available. I mix my own so I get the shellac flakes in what ever variety I need.
If you don't preseal you will get a blotchy stain job, very common in soft woods.
Doug
You want to used a dewaxed shellac - Zinnser Seal Coat.
http://www.zinnser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=72
I second what Mike says about the dewaxed shellac. You shouldn't use shellac as a sealer if it isn't dewaxed, otherwise there will be separation between finishes.
The best thing to do is to run a test on some like pine and mark on each test square what was used. Always make a testboard when you are finishing.
Yeah, what you said he said. And poly hates to go over shellac ( oil poly that is).
That minxax conditioner is crap compared to seal-cote.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
The minwax conditioner actually works better if you DON'T follow the directions. The directions say to stain within 2 hours of applying the conditioner. I found it works better if you let the conditioner dry overnight.
That is true. I had a customerwho used it on all of his pine louverd doors. He mistakenly put it on, and forgot about thw doors for a day and compared to the ones his wife did (she did read the instructions and follow) came out looking better.
I only use seal-cote thinned way down.
I tend to avoid any minwax stains, being as I prefer to use waterbased stains or aniline dyes. I still have large quantities of base concentrates from when I was actually making stains thatwere marketed by Hydro-cote.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
Seal coat can be tinted with Universal tint. I would "water pop" the doors with a spray bottle of water and a sponge prior to sealing. After the 1st coat of Seal Coat, knock the grain raise down with a red pad and apply a 2nd coat of shellac. Then use whatever top coat you feel comfortable with...OMU would be my choice for doors.
There are shellac based stain killers that have while pigment, but most shellac is clear--usually with a bit of amber tone like other finishes.
The shellac you want is dewaxed shellac, and the only way to buy that in liquid form is Zinnser's Seal Coat. The reason the manufacturer recommended shellac is to prevent the blotchiness that can happen with stain. Shellac is also the best material for retarding flow of water vapor. You can apply any finishing material over dewaxed shellac. This includes any oil-based polyurethane varnish or waterborne finish.
Cetol has good weathering properties for a finish that is translucent. I would be using it only on the exterior of the doors, and it will provide the coloration. I don't really think you need the shellac if you are using Cetol 1 basecoat followed by Cetol 23. I have found Cetol to darken a bit over time, lessening its attractiveness. To me the Cetol is primarily an exterior finish.
For the interior surfaces Seal Coat, followed by a stain, and then finished with several coats of a clear varnish, will give a near furniture quality finish. This will look much much more attractive than Cetol. Clear varnish doesn't hold up nearly as well as the Cetol on exterior surfaces however.
Man, you've sure gotten a lot of advice--much of it conflicting! If you want more, probably conflicting, advice, you could ask your question at Knots where the woodworkers hang out.
I have heard that you can dampen the surface with mineral spirits first, then while it is still damp, put on the stain. That is supposed to prevent blotching. Gel stain is also supposed to prevent it. I haven't tried the things I've mentioned, except I think I used the trick of wetting the wood with mineral spirits once before I used dye and that did help it cover more evenly. I've heard it argued that sealers are softer than most finishes and that can cause problems. Like I say, if you want more experienced advice, try the Knots forum (top of this page in olive-green box right after "Other Discussions").
Has anyone mention Minwax wood conditioner ???
(-:
I've used that one pine doors with pretty good luck.
I also ignore the instructions on the stain cans - They always say to slop on a whole bunch of the stuff and let it sit. I try to brush on as light of a coat as possible, and wipe it off quickly. It's a lot easier to add more stain than to take some off.
If you wipe off the stain and it doesn't look even, you can still spread it around a little while it's wet. Take a CLEAN rag with some paint thinner on it and try to work some of the stain out of the dark areas. You can blend it in with the lighter areas and make it look quite a bit better.