We’re about ready to start construction of a new house. The contractor is waiting for me to tell him what windows I want so he can order them. I happen to have a contact at a supply house who will give me a good price on the windows. However I don’t know how to broach the subject with the builder. I assume part of his profit comes from the suppliers he uses for jobs. This same issue may come up with the HVAC. The firm he uses happens to handle Carrier. If I want another brand at a different price, it would mean steering that job to someone else, too. I know a lot of contractors read these messages. How do situations like this play out?
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Hi Jed.
This is my first time on this board, but I think I can give you a couple of ideas. I am assuming you are having a custom home built. If you are, or are trying to be a developer or building on spec. this advise doesn't necessarily apply.
I mostly do remodeling, but have been involved with new home construction. As such, all of my work is specific to the customers wants, needs, and budget. I order the products my customer wants, although I will give my opinion on those products.
You should have a contract with your builder stipulating cost of job, including allowances for the cost of any items not specified in the plans. That allowance should be based upon some assumption listed in your contract. Your ability to get the windows at a good price should be acceptable to the builder, but you should expect pay the builder a fee based either on the price of the windows, or on the builder's profit schedule.
If you are wondering why the builder should get any money for a product you are supplying think about this: the builder will have to make sure that you order the correct sizes, or else spend time to repair or return the product (at your expense), and will have to take charge of when they are ordered, brought on site, installed correctly, and, presumably, you will expect some warranty of the quality of the builder's work. These are all costs to the builder and, while some of them are related to labor hours, some costs are allocated to future risk, some to management, and some to reasonable profit. The builder has to make some profit from your window order whether or not the builder purchases them as the builder is assuming all the risk and responsibilities for their installation and warrantability.
The HVAC unit is the same situation. The builder may have a preferred company, but that company should be able to install any HVAC unit you supply and, if they can't, should be willing to work with you on who installs the unit. Once again, the builder will have the greater actual burden of scheduling and managing the installation & the warrantability of the unit and the work.
The purchase price of any material on the job is always a fraction of the total cost to have the material installed and the potential future costs of warranty & repair. At the same time, any builder should be willing to work with you on these subjects. After all, the builder's job is, in part, to provide you with the best end product at the best possible price. That's what you are paying for. You are also paying for the builder's experience and ability- sometimes buying the cheaper product, whether by discount or by a friends favor, may cost you more in the end.
Lav
this has been addressed here 100 times and it always comes down to... unless you can save a ton ... like over 50% then you are P'n in the wind... it's just not worth it if there is a problem... at that point no one will be happy and no one will want to deal with it... unless you want to act as your own contractor/builder you are best to leave the "get'n the deals" to the contractor... unless you can tell your contractor...
" I'd like you to maybe purchase the windows from my friend... he's giving me a special price, see how that compares to anything else we can find, I'll insist you make 20% on whatever price he gives us because you're the one that has to deal with this... and it might just let us upgrade something somewhere else if this saves any money at all."
any contractor that wouldn't agree to that I couldn't/wouldn't work with anyway... I just hope your friend is Mr Pella...
It is your house and your money and the contractor does/will be working for you so in the end what you say goes... but....
good luck
p
And the contractor is a one-man operation who has a sterling reputation, so I do want to do the right thing by him and not screw around. As everyone else wrote, better to work with him than do an end-run.By the way, I'm not looking at Pella, which you mentioned. The allowances were for Kolbe & Kolbe or Semco, but the building inspectors where I work (I work for a municipality...not where I'm building) suggested Quaker and Norco (now Jeld-Wen). The latter has a 20 year warranty on the interior wood; Quaker doesn't warranty the wood. I can go to any forum and find negative reports about every manufacturer.... even Pella.... another reason to work with the contractor.
Edited 2/26/2006 10:18 am ET by JedD
The key to a successful relationship with your builder, is to communicate well and often. Tell the builder that you can get the windows for $xx and if that's better than his price then you will supply them. Let him source the same brand and model, and maybe he can get a better price. Don't automatically believe the supplier when he says that he can save you money. And be sure to have these conversations as early in the project as possible.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Just a vote for Semco windows I think they blow all the others away. Just check out the air loss compared to the others, fully welded extursions, great flange for install. You won't be sorry just my 2cs.
I've been down this road a few times so I offer the following:
Discuss the kind of windows you desire with your builder....what you have your eye on may or may not be a product with a good service record in your area. If not, he may caution you into choosing windows with a better track record. There's the occasional oddball product out there that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
If you elect to order/purchase the windows, you're going to have to be on the same page as the builder with R/O's, handing of the vents on casements, tempered glass locations, etc. Your builder will probably have as much or more time tied up helping you get this right as if he'd done it himself. Windows and doors, especially on a custom home, are seldom as simple as the schedule on the plans and require attention to detail to get right.
As a builder I routinely handle these things, consult with the HO as necessary, order timely so deliveries meet the project flow, etc. I deal with suppliers and vendors that I have a track record with and trust so mistakes are minimized. And I'm on site when the delivery is made, check for accuracy of the shipment and for damage (not uncommon) and arrange for factory service if necessary.
In my experience, I doubt your contact will provide much in the way of savings.
My HVAC sub can obtain most any make of furnace I want, though he has preferences. Remember that, whoever installs your HVAC system is most likely the one who, down the road will be making the service calls on it. So he's going to want to install something that he can readily get replacement parts for.
And most subcontractors will NOT warrantee fixtures and equipment supplied by the HO from internet purchases or big box discount stores. There is a lot of suspect quality out there.
It's your house and you SHOULD be able to have what you want in the end. If you have some specs in mind that will upgrade your home, like a better quality furnace, or better windows, fine.
But if you are just trying to shave a nickle here and there, you can easily become penny wise and pound foolish.
Tell your contractor: "I want to buy my own materials, starting with the windows, and anything else I can get cheaper."
I don't know how it would play out with your contractor, but I would immediately walk away without a second thought.
It's very simple- if he's got $10k in the estimate for the windows, you'll get a $10k credit- you won't get a dime of his markup or profit on the windows (if he's knows what he's doing). If you can get the windows for $8,000, go for it- if not, don't bother.
Your contractor can only be in so many places at one time. In those places, he has to recover a certain amount of overhead and profit in a fixed timeframe. If you buying materials doesn't save him time or allow him to be elsewhere making more money, why should you get a break, other than what you save on the materials? There was a thread in the Business folder just last week entitled "Meddling Owner" or something of the sort that was on this same topic.
Bob
Jed,
What makes you think that as a "one time' purchaser, your buddy is going to give you a better deal on a specific brand of window than a contractor who purchases windows on a regular basis? Did you compare pricing yet, or did your friend just verbally say he would "give you a deal"?
I typically let my clients pick the brand of window, but recommend the supplier to order them from because there is no way in hell they are going to get them cheaper than me. If they do, something is wrong with their "buddy".
Since I don't have to deal with markup on any materials, I steer them in my suppliers direction strictly from a service standpoint, i.e. manufacturer and supplier warranties, accuracy of RO's and acceptance of change to the window and door order.
If the client insists on using windows or doors that I do not recommend though, I inform them that I will not be responsible for their function down the road.
The CM
Coupla things - some of which has already been touched on...
The builder marks up the materials that are installed in your house - that's part of how he makes a living. Part of this markup goes to CYA - his A. So, if a window is installed that you supply, and later is found to be defective or even is damaged during installation - who pays for the removal and replacement of the window? Who buys a new window? This normally is taken care of by markup. If you bought the windows, I'd say you own both the window and the responsibility. If you purchase these windows, are you going to expect the builder to coordinate the delivery (for free)? Yea, I know, it's just a coupla phone calls - and his time is free - right? If the shipment arrives with 1 window wrong sized, who's responsibility is that? You bought the windows right? If the window shipment arrives 3 weeks late and his crew has nothing to do for 2 weeks because of the missing windows, who pays them?
I don't mean to sound like a hard a$$ but when I allow a home buyer to supply material I'd say there is about a 50/50 chance that a problem will result. I always make it clear ahead of time that it will be their sole responsibility, but almost inevitably, when things go south, they just can't hold up their end of the deal... I end up working with the vendor or doing whatever it takes to get things rolling... I could give a hundred examples. Want some?
RE the HVAC unit, I don't even think any of my HVAC subs would permit this - they'd walk away from the job.
If the builder and his subs supply all the material and labor for the house, he also is fully responsible for everything.
By doing what you propose, you are just looking for problems.
"RE the HVAC unit, I don't even think any of my HVAC subs would permit this - they'd walk away from the job."Permit what?They wouldn't even be on the job. They would have nothing to do do with unless you have a sole source contract with them.What he ask for was to use a different brand (and I assume level as a "different price" was mentioned) and said that ment a different using a different sub.And as for the person that suggested that there HVAC can get any brand I would not accept that unless the company regularly installed the brand that you wanted. Just because they can get it does not mean that they are well versed in all of the details.Specially if it is one of the higher end units with integrated controls and the like.
Bill:
When he said "same issue" I thought he was saying he wanted to supply his own HVAC equipment. I went back and reread what he wrote:
>> This same issue may come up with the HVAC. The firm he uses happens to handle Carrier. If I want another brand at a different price, it would mean steering that job to someone else, too. <<
Now I'm not sure what he means unless he possibly wants to hire his own HVAC subcontractor. That would be even worse. If that is the case, the builder might be willing to go along, but I'd bet would not reduce the price of the house by the amount the 'regular' HVAC contractor was going to charge, since the builder now has to work with a sub that he has no working relationship with, and if the HO is paying the sub directly, the builder has very little leverage over the sub.
If the HO wants a different brand of HVAC unit I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to ask the GC to find a HVAC sub who sells/installs what the HO wants, but the HO should be prepared to possibly pay a premium and endure any delays that might result from the GC using an alternate HVAC sub.
Re: >> And as for the person that suggested that there HVAC can get any brand I would not accept that unless the company regularly installed the brand that you wanted. Just because they can get it does not mean that they are well versed in all of the details. << I'd agree 100% with you on that.
BTW - I'm thinking I've been told that a few of the major HVAC brands are actually the same thing with a different paint job and name plate - any truth to that? I also believe that several HVAC brands all use the same source for compressors.
Here is the bottom line though (and what I believe is what has made my boss a pretty successful builder): The buyer of a custom home gets anything he wants - and he has to pay for it. That would be the price the builder sets, and it includes a substantial markup. This could even mean that a for HO wanting to substitute in a cheaper item could result in more expense to the HO - based on the extra efforts required for the change. Home buyers are discouraged from supplying their own material - but if they do, the builder takes ZERO responsibility for it since he is not getting the markup.
http://www.johnmills.net/work/history.htmlHere is a history of brands. It also includes a number of historic braneds.The related brands.
That was me that stated the HVAC sub could supply alternative brands.
But, I was simply mindful of my own sub who can do exactly that. For years, his shop was primarily a service shop and he and his crew's knowledge of HVAC systems (residential and commercial) is much broader than was the case of a large union shop I'd used in the past.
He's also one of those people who respond quickly to phone calls and his crew shows up not only on the day, but the HOUR they had scheduled.
I'm spoiled.
Sounds like a great sub, and it sounds like doing service work has been good customer service training for them!
What you spec should come before contract signing . He will deal with the type of windows and doors . Unless your window guy wants to build your house instead.
Seems you are trying to get it turned around from the start if I understand it correctly. You didnt mention you are contracting your own house either.
If your builder has a contract on your house you dont have any dealings with your buddy or his prices. Same with HVAC contractors , as thats the builders call agaih after you spec the brand equipment .
In other words if you spec Pella and Carrier or anyone else your responsebility has ended. If you change specs he will give you an add /minus price or the same .
You only deal with your builder since hes gave the turn key price you accepted.
Hes got the right to work with any sub he wants since hes the one who has to pull it all together and you will be looking at him at completeion time unless you want to build your own home and state that now.
Tim
Jed:
I did something just like you want to do.I thought I could save a few bucks(it was with a boiler,I got it wholesale) It just wasnt worth it.It turned into a bigger hassle than what it was worth.
If something goes wrong who fixes the problem? The GC has a time table to keep he's the one who keeps the flow going.As long as you are not getting reamed on the price of the windows he is providing let it go.Unless you can work out some other deal where he makes a profit on something else down the road(you wash my back I'll wash yours)type of thing let it go.
When I first started gc ing my new house I thought that the gc s made a ton of money that they did'nt really earn.BIG MISTAKE After doing it ALL on my own I have seen the light.
A good gc earns every penny.
And after further reveiw whats wrong with the guy making a few bucks for his mark up?Nobody wants to work for free.
Been there done that.
Take care Greg
Lead,Follow,or Get the Hell Out of the Way!
You have heard a lot of opinions. There are plenty of negatives from the contractor's perspective. But we do this some of the time. It really depends on how involved the owner wants to be and our gut feeling on how much they can handle. You can't go wrong if you ask your guy and listen to what he says. If he does not want to have anything to do with it, back off. It won't be worth the savings. If he is amenable to the arrangement and you are willing to take on the risks, go ahead. Sometimes there are headaches for the contractor but when aren't there headaches?
You should have this ironed out prior to the contract phase. The contract should spell out specifically what doors and windows will be used, their model #'s, RO.'s etc. and then you should follow that to the letter and not be tempted by 'deals' that may arise along the project.
It is imperative that the contractor know what you expect from the get-go and if you wish to cut a buck by supplying your own products, then the contractor should be made aware of this prior to a contract signing, to assume otherwise is foolish.
I lost my shirt on the first house build I did specifically because the customers refused to follow the contract and allow me to order the windows and doors from my supplier as agreed. I was even forced to return a door already ordered for the job because they found a cheap replacement, which they expected us to install and warranty.
Never never never never again.
I recommend specific dealers for finish products because of their consistency in quality and most importantly, their service record with me. I don't have time to track down missed orders, misplaced items, chase after producers that refuse to deliver etc. The boobs we built that house for even demanded that we assist them in unloading the cheap windows they purchased at a big box sale.
never never never never again.
Do you smell my hair singeing as the thought of this former disaster still causes my brain to spontaneously catch fire?
I also added an addendum to the contract that stated that we will not guarantee products that they purchase outside of the agreed contract products. They still harangued me about the door issue and I caved on that because I was starving and needed that last dollar.
never never never never again.
May all customers who think 1) General contracting is a walk in the park 2) Think that you can change windows and doors after building the walls, have leaky windows, sagging doors and five hundred pounds of burecracy to find someone who will take responsibility. Or my pity to the contractor who ends up on the wrong end of such a deal.
In other words if its a 'deal' it probably isn't in the long run and unless you want to be all alone when the product fails and you don't care about consistency in design or product,then by all means, shop around and go for the lowest.
If you want a smooth and conistent build with products that are installed well, with follow-up after the build then I'd recommend following the contractor's suggestions and forget about saving that other 10 or 30 %. It ain't worth it on any end.
Wow, I think I touched a raw nerve. I'm not trying to pull anything sordid on the general contractor. In fact, that's why I asked the gang about the whole issue. I don't want to be the classic pain in the #### client.Thanks to everyone on the board for their input.As far as the windows, the project was bid specifying all-vinyl windows. We want wood/aluminum, thus we have the option of paying the difference. Based on the overwhelming response on the message board, I told the GC to get quotes (on Jeld-Wen Builder's Grade and Andersen 200 Series) and I'll leave it in his hands.All of his sub-contractors are reliable, local outfits, and I didn't plan on asking the GC to stray from them. The HVAC contractor is one example. A Carrier system is in the spec, but IF that firm carries other brands, as far as I know I can trade up-or-down, right?Someone wrote about big box stores, and no I didn't plan on using that route for windows. But here's something interesting: the GC is steering me to the local Home Depot for the cabinetry. Is that a way to keep the price of the home within my budget?
the GC is steering me to the local Home Depot for the cabinetry. Is that a way to keep the price of the home within my budget?Maybe, or maybe his wife works as a designer there and they need that money -- every bit.Or he likes dealing with them and has had good results.I have steered customers to them for kitchen design when I get the feeling that they will get woozy with custom kitchen designers. Of course, they've caused me my share of headaches as well and I try to forewarn people. Ask him. Ask him everything you want to know.
I've been in this work since the late sixties.
I have done the majority of my work with homeowners.
Emphasize "With"
I have worked in some satisfying relationships in various ways to accomplish the end goals and I have had some very frustrating tinmes over the years. I am a fairly good communicator.
And in all this - I have NEVER seen a customer handled order that went flawlessly. Some mistakes major - some minor.
But my experience tells me that you WILL mess something up, or your chosen suppliers will. Just keep in mind that when it is the contractor's supliers and subs who mess up, he can handle the grief, but when it is from you 'helping out' you better be preparred to button up and pay the bucks to cover.
I'll give you an example - One local place really tries hard to sell ceramic tile to people. I know from experience that they ALWAYs screw up the order. This is not just on my jobs, but for everybody i hear from.
I have a reason for not doing any tile business with them. But every third customer wants nme to buy from them, because of their high pressure slaes staff convincing them that they can do better than X Y or Z down the road. They may have already planted the idea in the customer's head that I will be screwing them on price to hand the work to somebody actually competant. I have to deal with that in customer education, as taxctfully as possible. It just costs more to use quality people and it shows in the end product. I not only stand behind my work, but my chosen subs as well. Bring in a ringer and you can bet he will screw up the works.
So don't hre a contractor if you don't want him to do his job - do it yourself.
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