Replies

1. 
   RichColumbus | Aug 02, 2004 02:54am | #1

   I always overbuild my stairs.  I saw one set fall apart in a neighbor's house, unfortunately with my neighbor on them at the time, and I have been scared to death ever since.

   I always build the stairs with 2x stock, then laminate the treads to the rough steps.  It's easier and quicker to build, and I have not had any problems.  The thick treads underneath have very little bounce... thus, less chance for pieces to work loose.  Obviously, you have to laminate the treads VERY well to avoid future squeaks.  In my case, I also surround the treads with laminated stock (on the face of the stringer) to lock them in place.

   I would be real concerned about break-out in 4/4 stock that is dadoed.  Over time, and with the 300 lb Aunt Mary going up and down the stairs... the crack will occur right where you have screwed in from the back.  You may also get some crack issues with the pocket screws... but that doesn't concern me as much as the risers. Beach is reasonably stable... but still will crack.

   On the stringer... why only 4/4 stock?  I would go with a thicker stock on the stringers. 

   I use a poly glue... but I am sure there are many options.  The key is to get an adhesive that will stand up to 350lb Aunt Mary... just always keep that image in your head as you build the stairs.  I glue every possible surface... then when in doubt, I glue it again.  I inject glue into every crevice prior to laminating the finish stock. 

   As I said.. this is WAY overbuilding... but I would rather be super safe on something as volatile and dangerous as stairs.

   Sincerely,

   Paranoid

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/1/2004 8:04 pm ET by Rich from Columbus

1. 
   RobKress | Aug 02, 2004 04:09am | #4

   Yep, that definitely sounds like over building which would apply to the rest of my house.  In fact, we have a set of 2x construction stairs already that I was thinking of laminating but I figured that I wouldn't be able to make them look as nice as a fresh of scratch stair.  4/4 stingers don't worry me too much because like I said the max span at any portion of the stringer is going to be 16" because it will be attached at every stud of the side walls.  Furthermore, I will be taking a 2x and "railing" up underneath each stringer (attaching that also to each stud in the wall) to back up the stringers.  So really, the only failing point on the stringers I think would be if the tread were to literally rip the screws and all away from the stringer itself (which is less likely than having a tread completely fail under my brother's feet.... it's not aunt Tilly that I have to worry about).

   What kind of poly glue do you use?  I have been using the elmers version, I think it is called ultimate glue, from HD and have been very pleased with the performance.  Though I really can't say that I have tested its strength.

   Thanks for the suggestions.

   Rob Kress

2. 
   RobKress | Aug 02, 2004 03:58am | #2

   Les,

   Yes, I am planning to build enclosed (btween the stringers) stairs.  Then of course I will put the support blocks (little triangle pieces) under the treads.  I suppose I could alternatively cut a zig zag stringer and attach it to an uncut stringer but I figured cutting little support blocks and glueing / stapling them in place would be easier.

   Rob Kress

3. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2004 04:00am | #3

   I am unclear about your 4/4 stringers.

   Is this a housed stairset with the risers and treads dadoed into the stringers?

   What are the triabgles you mention and what do they do.

   For me, it might be easier to know where you want to end up, to then comment how to get there from here.

   I normally use 1-1/4" thick by 11-7/8" engineered stringer, headeer, and box beam stock that I think is called Timbertech. I notch it out and set the risers and treads into that. I mount them 1-1/2" away from the framing so the sheetrockers can slide in without nothching and I can lay the trim skirt board in too. Then the finish treads are fitted to the skirt.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   RobKress | Aug 02, 2004 04:19am | #6

   Piffin,

   Yes, this is a housed stair.  The stringers are not dadoed or notched.  Instead, triangular blocks (with good right angles) are attached to the stringer to make what amounts to tread and risers backing blocks.  Just as if you would cut a zig zag stringer and then laminate it to a solid stringer.

   So if you use engineered stock for your stringers, how do you end up making it look good?  My stairs will be finished wood stairs.  So after you notch out your stringers and set in your treads and risers, do you put little filler triangles on the top of the tread and in front of the riser to cover up the engineered stringers?  How do you attach those?  How do you attach your treads and risers to your stringers?  Do you dado for your treads and risers or do plow out a full chunk of stringer in the shape of a triangle.  How deep is your "notch"?

   Sorry for all the questions, but if I'm thinking about this right, the way that you describe is actually a pretty good option that I hadn't thought of.  And it definitely seems like a very strong and easy to implement option.

   Thanks for you input,

   Rob Kress

1. 
   DanH | Aug 02, 2004 04:32am | #8

   Rather than triangle blocks, just use wood or metal cleats under the tread, and another smaller cleat behind the riser, if you think you need it. The triangle blocks will be apt to split, but simple straight wood cleats will hold together better (and metal cleats better still).

2. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2004 04:39am | #9

   I cut out the sringers, the middle one too.

   To be honest, I don't think too much of the attached triangle method you are thinking of. I've seen it done that way for porches and temporary steps. The pieces are hard to get in just the right place so one step always seems to have a tilt to it, and then the pieces start to separate after a few years, the treads get loose, and squeaks ensue.

   not too sure if you understood my description, so i will try to remember to shoot some photos at the site tomorrow for you. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   Schelling | Aug 02, 2004 02:11pm | #12

   For most of our stairs we use the same method as Piffin. We can cut the stringers out of lvl's, use them as construction stairs, remove the temporary treads and we are ready to apply the finish treads, risers, skirt boards, etc. This only works if you are covering up the bottom of the stairs. If the stair structure is to be left completely exposed underneath, such as in a stair with open risers, you have to treat the stringers as finish material. In such cases, we like to use 3x12 stringer material and 2x12 treads.

   BTW, I recommend using an lvl for the stringer for the strength and because of the shrinkage in solid lumber which causes the treads to tilt forward over time.

4. 
   WayneL5 | Aug 02, 2004 04:10am | #5

   Rob, if this is your first time building stairs, there's something else you should know.  There are codes about how large the rise and run may be, as well as how they relate to one another.  There is also a requirement that the rise be identical on each step to within some fairly tight tolerance, I believe 1/4" or 3/8".  That includes the bottom and top steps, so you have to account for the intended flooring heights and adjust your spacing accordingly.  Therefore, your measurements, calculations, and fabrication must be precise.

   There are also codes about banisters and railing placement too, of course, and headroom as well.

1. 
   RobKress | Aug 02, 2004 04:28am | #7

   Got all the codes down.  In fact learned a lot about it from all the great folks here and why I have come back for more help.  Yes, it is my first stair case but not my first critically dimensioned project.  In fact, I come from a machining background and rough framing my house was pretty tough for me (by the end my crew was complaining that I needed to throw away the micrometer - which in truth never made it out to the site but that's the kind of tolerances I am used to).  I have also made fine furniture.

   So, yes, I am very aware of the tolerancing expected for stairs.  I have also spoken to the local building inspectors and covered all bases with them on what they expect (which is no more than what code expects).

   Am I really ready to build my first stair case?  Probably not, so it will take me much longer than it would take someone who does it all the time.  But in the end, I'm sure the stairs will be ideal cause they really can't be any other way (I wouldn't let them be not ideal and neither would the inspectors).

   Thanks for the input. 

   Rob Kress

5. 
   ThaButcha | Aug 02, 2004 04:53am | #10

   I just built a staircase (in my driveway) for my own house.

   Heres how I did it:

   Cut my stringer out of a 2x10. (Held it in place to double check)

   Screwed and carpenters yellow glued a peice of 1x12 select pine to my DF 2x10 stringer.

   Ripped and crosscut all the 1x select pine risers secureing them to my 2x stringer with glue and finish nails and screwing them from the outside of the stringer.

   Ripped and crosscut all the 5/4 oak treads secureing them to my 2x stringer with glue and finish nails and screwing them from the outside of the stringer.

   Underneath I made little 1''x1''x4'' blocks and yellow glued and finish nailed them to where the tread meets the top of the riser.

   Then from underneath I Liquid Nailed every seam and inside corner.

   Flipped her over and applied some 3/4'' cove to where the riser meets the tread.

   Installed them. (Like a glove)

   A Little stain, urethane, caulking and paint and voila a $300 staircase!

   Heres some pics of the progression.

   ___________________________________________

   Common sense is a gift from God that cannot be taught.

1. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2004 09:17pm | #13

   That's about right, but here is how I adjust from your method.

   I use a center stringer too, two of them on a wider formal stair.

   I use the first test stringer for a pattern so I don't need to keep doing layout.

   I frame it in place, and use scrap for temp construction treads until trim time to keep laster etc off the treads. I set the outside stringers 1-1/2" from the wall framing adjacent so SR can slip in behind. I'm wondering how your rockers could get to their work on yours, and how any other sibs could come and go until you had built the finished stairs. Also by framing in place, one man can do it all, and it is easy to account for irregularities in the hole.

   I also like 2x12 sizing for more strength supporting from under and the engineered lumber does not split off on grain or shrink, and the trim one by we slip in later can have more exposure than just barely enough to pass by the tread lip.

   but yours came out looking fine - and saved me the trouble of shooting pictures for this thread.

   BTW, reviewing this all, why the L Nails all around the back side? That brand will check, harden and shrink so it isn't a caulk and without it being right in the joint, it isn't a glue either. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   RobKress | Aug 03, 2004 12:12am | #14

   Thanks for all the responses everyone.  I think we are seeing some regional differences in stair construction.  Every stair that I look at is a 1 x "skirt" as you folks are calling it with little triangular blocks stapled like mad to make a stringer.  The blocks are usually the same stock as the stringer (most of the time poplar).  Then the treads and risers are stapled like mad through the outside of the stringer and liquid nails or the like slathered on all seams.

   Not nearly as nice as your stairs.  I especially like the idea of cutting stringers out of engineered lumbr for expansion and contraction reasons.  Sounds like I could do something much like what has been described here.

   Thanks again,

   Rob Kress

1. 
   cardiaceagle | Aug 03, 2004 12:17am | #15

   ya use the lvl's it is a sweet way to build a stair.......

   little bit more $$ though.........regards

2. 
   ThaButcha | Aug 03, 2004 01:15am | #16

   Piffin,

   I used the 2x10 because underneath is the stairway to my basement and didn't want to lose any more headroom. She's also screwed from underneath into the studs.

   I did the sheetrocking :c) and padded the studs to give me a bullet line finish of 37 5/8''.

   The finish staircase I made 37 1/2''. ( I know a little too tight!)

   My base is 1x4 with an 1-3/8'' bed cap moulding on top of it. I put bed cap on top of my stringer and connected it into the base molding. I couldn't be happier.

   The liquid nails was the only thing I could get on that Saturday (Home Depot) and was just added for extra security.

   About building it in place is definitely the way to go if it's only yourself doing it. If I didn't do the rockin' I would of done it differently. I also was able to screw it together from the outside which pulled my joints together nicely. Good thing I had extra hands to carry her in and set her cuz it sure was heavy. I considered the middle stringer but the staircase isn't that wide.

   They've been in for about 2 months now and have had no sort of expansion and contraction troubles.

   When ''we'' picked her up you could feel it was built like a tank!

   Thanx for the comments,

   Erik___________________________________________

   Common sense is a gift from God that cannot be taught.

6. 
   FNbenthayer | Aug 02, 2004 01:48pm | #11

   Aside from squeak free, what are you tryin to achieve with this design? Seems like you're tryin to re-invent the wheel.

   The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
   - Fyodor Dostoyevski