i have such a time getting it done the way i want it done,i must do something wrong.
have a guy that is recommended to me bid a roof at a place out of town. his bid comes in ,it states tear off,30lb paper ,starter strip,brand of shingles etc.. so from previous experence i write on the contract that the metal valleys are to be colored. he calls me tell’s me it’s a extra 60 for 30′ of colored valley,yea fine i want colored.[this is bs as colored are maybe 30 cents more a ft but oh well]
so i get there this weekend. no metal valleys,there woven ,which i hate,but after our conversation i get nothing,who was i talking too? but bottom line is it’s done and nothing to do about it………..
next,you guys tell me if this is right or wrong,looks like the old was tore off,but then they left the old metal edgeing that is all rusty on and went from there. wtf does 175′ of edgeing run? i have never seen a tear off/new roof without new edgeing. should i of speced new or was i just stupid for assuming?
i can live with the valleys but this old rusty edge pizzs me off,so what now? larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there’s not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Replies
IMHO, I'd say not replacing the rusty dripedge is crappy workmanship. But, if it wasn't spec'd in the contract...I don't think there's alot you can do unless it violates code.
The valley treatment however, is a clear breach of contract. -He doesn't get paid until it's done the way you agreed. If you want to push the issue that is.
Edited 8/10/2008 3:04 am ET by deadman1
it's a extra 60 for 30' of colored valley,yea fine i want colored.[this is bs as colored are maybe 30 cents more a ft but oh well]
I'm gonna pick on this thinking. He's probably got to buy a 50' roll of colored metal to provide you with 30'. So he's stuck with 20' of metal that he may not be able to use for quite sometime. Plus the time spent acquiring it. Sounds like a deal to me.
Now to the problem: If the contract said "colored metal in valleys", that's what you should have gotten. I often have addendums to my contracts and we hand write it on and both initial it. Never had a problem. What I'm not understanding is if he agreed to colored metal after you added it to the contract. I guess he kind of did if he gave you a price.
As far as changing the woven valley to open, it's a little bit of a pain the butt, but it can be done.
The drip edge is more of a pain the butt, but it should have been replaced. I'd say this guy has some 'splaining to do. What's his reason for not replacing the DE?
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.......now there's a Batman.....
I have replaced drip edge more often than left it. Nothing wrong with leaving it when it is in good shape, but given that it was rusty, it should have been replaced.
But your list of contract details does not include new drip edge, so as far as contract goes, seems like he is fine there. He just ain't a primo roofer.
But you asked for coloured metal valley so you should get coloured metal valley. Cost seems fair given that he probably has to buy a full roll to use and then inventory the left over as waste.
Seems like clear failure to perform on the valleys and no pay until he makes that right. I can imagine a time when I might have sent somebody out to do a roof for me and forgot to mention a specific detail like that to my crew, then been embarrassed and ready to make it right by offering first an apology, then a choice of discount or reworking things to do it to satisfaction. I have also had subs ignore my clear instructions on some details where they had to answer like that to me.
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what scares me about this kinda stuff is i'm thinking about building a new cabin in this area. so when i write a contract how far do i need to go in specs.
all lumber used must be new
must use new nails
all wood to be nailed every 8"
all fastners to be ss that touch treated
only pl glue to be used,etc.
on and on,probaly the first page would cover the sill plates,it would only take 500 pages to get this all in. i know that the answer is "hire a quality builder" but you just have no assurance of that until it's being done,then it's to late.i come back here and say"my builder is using used nails on my house" evryone will say"whats the contract say?" and it's like the roof deal,do i make him rip out the old nails and replace,no i understand that sometimes the tearing up makes a bigger problem than just leaving alone.
when the time comes i'm going to be makin a post on how to spec const of a house for all your guys advice. thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
"what scares me about this kinda stuff is i'm thinking about building a new cabin in this area. "Yes....every detail that you want followed has to be written on the plans or spec sheet. If it's important to you, get it in writing. Then, get it in writing from them. Have them sign your plans and spec sheets and keep a copy and make the plans and specs part of your written contract. If you need fifty pages of specs, do it. Your first few specs aren't that bizarre but if you didn't tell me, I'd be using galvanzed nails in the treated wood. They meet code and the plans would be built to code eh? So, your request for stainless is above and beyond code. I don't mind giving you what you want, but you gotta let me know...before we are done! Did your specify an open valley on your written roof contract? If not...you probably shouldn't expect one. Most guys think closed valleys are better. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
i wonder how much of this "communication problem" has to do with the current business model for roofing, (as well as several other crafts but especially prevalent in roofing) where the guy (joe) selling the new roof to the homeowner (larry) then hires another crew to actually install the roof.
this installing crew is a subcontractor of a salesman (joe) who presents himself as a roofing contractor. installing crew may or may not work for any number of other roofing contractors (salesmen).
i seem to remember a thread on the roofing business in this forum where the business model for roofing was discussed, and this was the consensus of how to make money in roofing, the owner of the roofing company hires salesmen who get a percentage, and then subcontracts out all of the installations to individual crews.
what was not mentioned in the thread was having an entirely different company (corporation for insulation) set up to hire the the installer crews.
so there is Advanced Roofing Contractors Inc listed in the phone book, where all the sales staff is straight commision with no salary, and Applied Applicators Inc subcontracts to do the installations with no bid since it is a dummy company set up with a buddy of the owner managing, and they hire the roofing crews to do the work, while reccomending to the installation crews that they provide insurance certificates for "handyman work" since applied applicators is a vague enough name not to indicate roofing, and some guy with a social security # provides said insurance certificate, and pays all the taxes on his undocumented installer crew.
the recipe for success in roofing business in america, i know people working under this business model. call advanced metal roofing in wilmington NC for a quote, they should be in prison for how they rip people off.
Lets not focus on the roofing company that is ripping people off. Lets focus on the business model and lets just discuss those companys that are delivering a quality installation.How is the setup differnt than a builder who hires all subcontractors and doesn't have any w2 employees working on a house. And...aren't most commercial buildings built with all subcontractors? Are you implying that there is no legal and ethical way to run a business without being out there with the tools in your own hands? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
OP was saying he had trouble with several roofing crews recently, i was wondering online if there was any connection to the business model.
i read in this forum a thread discussing business model for roofing that paid salesmen straight commision, and subcontracted roofing installation. it was discussed between and intended for good people, yet the problem I see with this business model is the distance between company owner and subcontracted installer.
if i had my druthers i would much rather have the crew doing the installation of my roof the ones making all the money from it, rather than the lions share going to the owner and sales reps. i would be willing to bet using a crew that actully did the work instead of subcontracting it would eliminate a lot of problems for homeowners.
i think it is different than having entire commercial buildings contracted, or in a general contractor with no employees building custom/spec in the scope of the job. the roofers are in and out in a matter of days, those little 3-4 man crews with a pick up and dump trailer are easy to fly in under the radar.
that kind of a business model lends itself to rip offs, that doesn't mean if you use that business model you are a rip off, but i would prefer to give instructions to, shake the hand of, and give the check to the actual guy doing the work rather than the wing tip wearing owner and salesmen.
i think you can find a few roofing artisans in this forum to do just that with, you will probably pay less and i know you will get better work done.
BINGO!!! you win the prize,that is the whole problem with this mess. like i said i have had several roofs put on lately,had a long disscussion with salesman,no problem thats how we'll do it. he throws the contract on the secratarys desk and they scheldue a crew.who knows whats been said
i'm not sure the house with the valleys is that deal ,but could be. i gaurantee you the guy i made the contract with didn't nail the shingles on.larry
oh,be watching your mailbox for your prize package,should arrive in the next 10-15 days,if not you get your post back.if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Larry,
How are you going to get satisfaction from this job ?
Money off - fix the FUp's or what have you in mind ?
Walter
thats the million$ question. first let me say my thoughts on roofs,once it's down messing with it just asked for more problems.your thoughts?
drip edge looks bad,should of been replaced ,but it wasn't .i'm sure the roofers stand is it isn't in the contract,and he's right i didn't even dream it needed to be, live and learn,and i'm a slow learner. so i can ask why and he's going to say not in contract. disscussions really over isn't it?maybe someday i'll get some paint and repaint it silver.
metal valleys,i feel they should be on there,i'm sure when the bill gets here he won't have billed me for them and even if he does i know he will take off the cost.so now what? i probably could yell and bitch and they would go back and open up the roof and slide it under.chances of problems are great ,the reason i wanted metal was this is about 3/12 slope so pushing it anyway. so we'll leave the valleys they way they are,maybe he will knock off some token amount[100.which means a whole lot less to me than having a great job done] but the only real leverage i have is i'm going to build a new place down there sometime and he won't get the job,which chaps me because i really like dealing with the guy he was straight forward no bs and got er done.but thats how it plays out.
do you see it any other way?? thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
thanks, no prize neccesary, the attaboy will do.
i feel your pain, on both ends. i hate when i get work done for me and its crummy in part because the guys doin the work are gettin hosed, and when i answer an ad in the paper for a job its one of them wing tip wearing so and so's trying to hose me, not an actual homeowner who needs work done. (or a recruiter instead of a contractor, same situation with commercial/industrial)
it sure would be nice if the money went to the guys doing the work, and not the middle managers. i never wanted to be a middle manager when i was growing up, now why is it those worthless sobs should make more than a craftsman?
i had some concrete work done a couple years ago,i hire a guy from more frickin references.the hour before the pour he calls going to send me a sub to do it. i thought oh boy here we go,trucks on the way i don't know what i got.
well these guys worked there buts off,till 1am trying to get it power troweled out. guy chraged me 1700,wanted paid before these guys were even done screeding ,i sad no,if you want i'll pay them when there done and you can come tommorrow and pickup the remainder. says that will work,pay em 600! this pc of dirt made 1100 and didn't even get some mud on his fingers. i paid the last guy that stuck till 1am a extra 100.just cause he wanted to do a good job.
again the only thing to do is not use the guy again,BUT i got the subs name and have sent the 7-8 jobs since then, atta boy! larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Sounds like you guys talked about colored metal valleys , but it wasn't written and he forgot to tell his crew that was what was to be done.
Using the rusty drip edge is just them trying to save some labor and cost of new metal -- a real eyesore when it's the first thing you see.
They have some things to fix before final payment I'd think.
"ican live with the valleys but this old rusty edge pizzs me off,so what now? "
I just noticed the actual Q
what would it cost you to wire brush the metal edges exposed and paint them? Couple bills? I think I would negotiate this much off due to the valleys. If the contract doesn't cover the metal edge, mention that as a criticism to help put him on the defensive but don't expect much there.
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larry
I won't pay him until he fixes the valleys and the metal edge.
No just scape and paint either.
Plus i wouldn't take recommendations from that source again.
Rich
so heres what i'm taking from you guys. it should of been in the contract about th edge,it wasn't so not a lot for me to say about it.if the guy chose's to save the edge,it's more of a reflection on his workmanship than anything.
the metal valleys would of been pre bent w valleys so he would of needed 30' to do this.i had hand wrote it on the contract when i sent it back in,then we had the discussion of cost,so i feel it was part of the contract.
but heres where i am on roofing. it's done,we start ripping back shingles and were just looking for more problems later n,so i will just let this be and go on.i'm not a guy that bitches alot,my way of getting even is ,i don't ever spend anymore money with him. and i'm on a roll with roofers this year as this is my 8th roof and 3 roofing companys,although this one was 300 miles away.
thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
as i just posted ,im thinking about building down where this is at. so this spring i'm talking to a builder and he recommends this guy. so hows that reflect on the builder ,now?
the roofer was very professoinal in presenting the contract,he even raised his contract price 12% for increase's because it took 45 days to get me to sign a contract. {thought i had it sold ,then it fell through]and i agreed to it so no bitching there.just frustrating that the details are such a problem,i'm sure the roof won't leak the way it is,i just need to learn how to hire things done to my expectations,without having to stand there and watch every nail drove. thanks larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Edited 8/10/2008 10:45 am by alwaysoverbudget
I'd call him on the valleys, then agree to settle for replacing the drip edge.
You are holding his final payment, right?
Edited 8/11/2008 7:38 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Why do you think he has a claim about the valleys? I must of missed something. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Because the contract called for coloured metal and he didn't get it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Isn't the colored metal buried under the closed valley? If it isn't, then I agree, it's an issue. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I doubt it. Most guys who weave the valleys do not use metal under them at all, but if they do, there is no sense in using coloured since it wil not show.That would be like wearing your flashy argyle socks and then pulling on tall cowboy boots! the girls would never get a chance to get turned on by the colours woven into the fabric they would never see.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know...it doesn't make sense...but we are talking about roofers here aren't we? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
jim,first i gotta ask why would anyone spec colored valleys then cover them with shingles???
so the contract says nothing when i get it,i write in i want to be sure that there are colored metal valleys installed. now at this point for all i know he will lay down metal w valleys ,but i want to be sure the match the roof,just a little pet peeve of mine to throw galvanized down on a weatherwood shingle. so then we talk on the phone and he tells me that there is a upcharge,i say fine i want them to look good. now as far as i'm concerned i signed a contract saying metal, he ackowledge it ,and up chrage me,then they used shingles in the valleys. i haven't gotten the bill yet but surely there won't be the extra charge???
larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Larry, I don't know why someone would spec colored metal valleys, then cover them up. But...we are talking about roofers here right? I'm going to guess that the contract and spec sheet didn't specify open valleys with colored metal valleys. Did the contract specify metal valleys or did you just discuss it verbally? Did the contract specify open valleys or did you just assume? If you assumed, then you left it up to the installers....and some of them are color blind LOL!Did you get the metal or are you too far away to verify? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
i wrote it on the front of the contract. now if they put metal down under the shingles,i'm not paying for that,that i know. maybe i live in a sheltered world but around here if the valleys are cut in,you get tar paper under it,maybe if you have a reallly good roofer you get ice and water under it.
as far as i know in this neck of the woods when ever anyone uses metal valleys they are about 20" wide with a ridge running down the center,so it would be tough to shingle over.
i will probably be there next weekend so i'll give it a look and see if there is something under the shingles.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
If its in writing, you are good to go! Good luck. I hope you haven't sent in the final check. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
AOB,
I've seen re-roofs using the same drip edge. It is both ridiculous and pathetic in my opinion; not to mention likely wrong considering the drip should go over the tar paper on the rake runs. You say the drip edge is rusty? Must be very old and/or galvanized. Should have been replaced with aluminum.
I like the metal valley pans too. I don't usually see pans made from coil stock; it is sold in pre-bend lengths. The material cost is about $13 per 10ft piece. It could be retro-fitted but would be very difficult and in your situation would probably be done poorly as the contractor wouldn't be making money on fixing his mistake.
I suppose if I were you, I would try to live with the woven valley and squeeze the roofer for a 15-20% discount plus the original metal valley charge.
good luck
gk