I’m (still) in the process of restoring our Italianate home. In the 1970’s the previous owners ripped off much of the wooden architectural details to place stucco over the entire building (bast*rds!). The also took off the character-defining quoins….So I want to replace them.
The quoins will be 8″x12″ and 8″X18″, alternating. They will be chamfered on three sides and mitered where they meet at the corner.
The whole house is made of redwood, I thought of using this, but I’m afraid the boards will “cup” and/or split (and tight grain/old growth redwood is an arm and a leg). I thought of MDO, but the chamfered edges might be a problem….
My questions–What wood would (a lot of alliteration there) you suggest for this application?
Thanks for the help
Edited 3/16/2004 10:43 am ET by PNUTIII
Replies
There are a number of wood species that are fairly rot-resistant. Depending on your location, you could try cedar (eastern or western), cypress, or white oak.
Perhaps more important than the species, is the water-shedding ability of the design and installation. You'll need to be certain that the top edge of each quoin has a gentle slope (maybe 5 degrees?), so that water runs away from the house. If there is no slope, then each piece will hold enough water that it will eventually rot -- regardless of species. Or worse, it could penetrate the house.
And, depending on the "protrusion dimension", wyou might want to cut a slot on the bottom, similar to old-style dripedge moldings. This will help prevent water intrusion at the bottom.
Also, be certain to paint all surfaces before installation. This is the best insurance against cupping.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I think quoins on a wood sided building are perverted.
I tend to agree. But the OP asked, so I gave my best answer.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Uncle--
I should have indicated that this Italianate home was built circa 1880 and there are some historical aspects that I am trying to restore in order to be true to the home's original design. Historical restoration is often not a matter taste, but of authenticity.
Wooden quions on wooden Italinates were quite typical--especially out west. As this style of home moved from the east to the west, stone and brick were often replaced with the more plentiful wood--and especially redwood on the Pacific coast. But in order to replicate the "Italianate" style, the original builders would utilize wood where originally stone or metal (like on widow's walks) would have originally been used. While it may seem funny to have wooden quoins, understanding the history of a building leads to a better understanding and a greater appreciation for those who built before us.
Not utilizing wood and not restoring the quoins, would be (IMHO) perverted. Taking off the quoins in the first place and bastardizing a historic structure was perverted.
YesMa'am, I appreciate the information.
So, these previous owners stucco'd the house? Why not stucco quoins (try saying that fast a couple of times)? You could unhistorically make them out of todays efis foam and coating. Flashing them properly might take some thought.
Could you post a picture of what you got and what the house down the street has?
Never saw a wood quoin.
thanksRemodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I understand completely. I have seen a few Italianates done in wood, and I am quite familiar with the look. (But I've never paid much attention to the details of the siding. Just how did they lay up all of those horizontal boards, with no flashing between, and no overlap -- and not have rot in the first decade?)
And I have been involved in a couple of restoration jobs, so I am familiar with the concept of true restoration.
I'm sorry if my comment sounded offensive, it was not meant to be. It was simply a statement of my own tastes, which I should not press on others.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
No offense taken...I understand completely about the "personal taste." I have had to fight hard not to impose my own taste on this process as well...but the more restoration work I have done (this is our 2nd historic house), the more I have come to appreciate the craftsmanship AND the look of the original...and I have also come to understand that we need people to preserve/restore/rehabilitate these homes or they will not be around for others to enjoy. For example, I am not a fan of Eichler (sp?) homes, but I appreciate the character defining elements that make that home special. It would be a shame if they were all butchered up...
I am fan of Fine Hombuilding (and Fine Woodworking too)--no matter what the era. In many cases, I think some of these "older" homes look better than the relatively new tract homes built a mere 20 years ago. That being said, I appreciate getting the great advice/comments from those who build today...
>> Historical restoration is often not a matter taste, but of authenticity.
It's very thoughtful of you to make the effort to fill me in on the evolution of west coast Italianate style. I almost hate to tell you it moves me not at all.
Some styles are well fitted for building in wood, some are not. A west coast redwood Italianate with wooden quoins is a design error, was a design error when it was built. They should have left that style back east, where the bricks were.
That the house has survived for 124 years doesn't justify restoring it, and may not even justify preserving it. Historicity in itself confers little or no virtue. You have to judge things on their own merit. I think hardly anyone favors bringing back cholera, for instance, in the name of historical restoration. Or the Inquisition. Etc.
In that sense, it is a matter of taste. Which historical objects are worth the effort of a rigorously authentic historical restoration, and which are not? IMHO (since we're trading HO's) a wood sided house that used to have wooden quoins is not.
That the house has survived for 124 years doesn't justify restoring it, and may not even justify preserving it. Historicity in itself confers little or no virtue. You have to judge things on their own merit. I think hardly anyone favors bringing back cholera, for instance, in the name of historical restoration. Or the Inquisition. Etc.
You are right.
There are no reasons to appreciate the way things were done in the past and/or preserve things for future generations to appreciate. That in and of itself means nothing....Thanks for making things clearer.
Because things can be done with modern materials and new technology means that is the only way to do it...In the picture below, I'm sure this guy replaced the original engine with a new turbo-charged Lexus, and what appears to be wood, I'm sure is the most state of the art technology...
If he restored this boat, he must be an idiot...Who would want a wooden boat (in water no less) and a slow engine...With my new-found outlook on life (thanks to Uncle) I could never appreciate someone taking the time to restore a boat when faster, sleeker, and up-to-date technology exists...
Gentlemen Gentlemen...
It's not worth the penny.
PNUTlll, I don't think UD was saying that the past is worthless, rather that just because something is old does not, in itself, make it worth preserving.
I'm always intrigued by people who go to such lengths to restore the look of a house with such fervor that sometimes borders on self righteousness (I'm speaking in general here, not at you specifically). Yet that obsessiveness always ends at the paint color or the siding or the windows and doors and never continues into the other historical aspects of their house.
You are going to restore the plumbing, electrical, heating and appliances to the proper period as well, aren't you? You're not going to desecrate the historicity of that house by installing AC are you? Or putting in a stereo, a television or, horrors, a DVD player?
Reminds me of an old thread about a guy in an east coast historical district. Spent something like 10 grand on a quality paint job and the historical board wanted him to repaint the house seeing it wasn't the proper shade of the color.
Ok Ok, so now we've graduated into wooden nickels :o)
http://www.canamould.com/quoins.html
I think they can do custom work as well.
Nice boats. Some styles really are well suited for building in wood. Why do you assume they're restorations? I occasionally see brand new boats in similar styles in the wood boat magazines. And if they are restorations, why do you assume I would disapprove of that? Some historical objects really do deserve restoration.
WRT the engine, there's no way to tell from the picture that it doesn't have a turbocharged Lexus in it. Maybe the guy did a nearly authentic restoration but replaced the old engine with something more practical, kind of like including modern heating and plumbing in a restored house.
Now if the west coast Italianate style had been sided with narrow shiplap siding with periodic vertical kerfs, so it looked like brick (from far enough away), quoins might have made sense.
Hey Dunc, quoins were not just used on brick structures. They were oiriginaly concieved by the romans, to protect the corner of buildings from getting trashed by erant carts. Then it became an architectural style adopted to other building styles.
uncle.... i think you're off base saying this is a design error if done in wood..
many of the high colonial houses in Newport have quoins.. all are wood.. some from the 18th century....as with any PAINTED wood trim.. the secret to longevity is maintenance and attention to detail..
PNUTIII :
as to the restoration .. have you thought of the new materials .. like Koma..
Koma is one of the new pvc trim materials.. it likes paint.. and you can weld it with pvc cement.. so strong that the material will break before the bond.. you can machine it .. the only caveat is that it has a somewhat open cell on the edge cuts.. but if this is to be painted, it will all finish the same....
building quoins is very similar to building square columns...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Finally! Mike, I appreciate the information. I hadn't heard of Koma, but will look into it....
>> i think you're off base saying this is a design error if done in wood.
Sorry, I haven't been clear. The error is not that the quoins are made of wood, and therefore subject to rot. The design error, IMO, is quoins of any material being applied to a house with wood siding or anything that looks like wood siding. Purely an esthetic objection.
Sombody yesterday said Mt. Vernon has wood siding made to look like stone. If that's true, then IMO, quoins are perfectly appropriate there, and in that circumstance it makes perfect sense for them to be wood.
By contrast, quoins would not, IMO, be appropriate on a house with fiber cement siding, not even if they were fiber cement quoins, or even stone or concrete, because the fiber cement siding looks like wood.
Would you put quoins on a house with board and batten siding? Or T-111? Shingles?
>> many of the high colonial houses in Newport have quoins.. all are wood.
So, the evil extends farther back in time than I thought, probably all the way back to the Romans, as someone suggested yesterday.
unca.. it's much , much worse than you suspected...
try googling on Newport Restoration..
you'll find sites like this....
http://www.newportrestoration.com/historic/historicHILL/hazardPERRY.html
.hah,hah, hah.....them damn colonist...always mucking things up....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well, the site you linked to said they were at least trying to make the siding look like stone. I guess that means they agreed with me that quoins against plain wood siding is not a stylistic winner.
hmmmm.... you're gonna make me dig 'em up , ain'tcha?
mebbe tonite i'll look tru sommadabooks.. right now i'm procrastinating costing up a change orderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Washington's Mount Vernon home on the Potomac, built in a rather humid clime of the Virginia colony, was sided all in wood to look like stone. It stood for a long time, and still stands. Full-time (and for a long time unpaid) maintenance staff helped, though.
When they built those old biggies out in S. F., they had redwood to burn, so to speak, and the redwood was used for everything but probably flooring. Studs, joists, furring, shims, etc., all redwood.
>> ... Mount Vernon ... was sided all in wood to look like stone.
If the west coast redwood Italianate houses were sided in wood to look like stone, the quoins might have made sense. But they weren't. They were sided in wood to look like wood siding. Putting quoins on a wood sided house is like putting tits on a mailbox.
"tits on a mailbox"
there is an idea there....... somewhere, have to think it over
thats a future classic..may I borrow that with proper acknowledgement?...
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Please do.
Since the lumber value of a wooden nickel is worth two cents, I'll throw my opinion in here and say that I liketits whether they're on a mailbox or knot.
Yeah but, can I put coins on my log house? it has dovetail corners now..maybe cover em up with some coins will make it newer..they never heard of coins in Ky, when they built my place..or maybe just put tits on the corners?
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
heah in new england we calls them teats... mebbe if you worked on gettin some classe' you'd see some a demMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Maybe this will help--this isn't my home...It is actually the home of John Muir, in Martinze, California. It is all built out of wood, and, absent the cupula, it is almost exactly like the home I am restoring....Hope this works and I hope it helps paint a picture of what I'm trying to accomplish...
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PNUTlll- have you or are you removing the stucco on your place?
Wonderful home.
The stucco has been removed and the tell-tale "ghosts" of the quoins and trim around the window are clearly visiable...The redwood siding is in remarkably good condition--I also forgot to mention that in the 1940's (before the stucco) the home had been covered in asphalt (not asbestos) siding. Over this came the stucco....So the wood has actually been pretty well protected--sanding, CPES, epoxy putty, and paint, and the siding will look great. Lots and lots of mundane work, but in the end it will be worth it...HOWEVER, let the world know now--This will be the last restoration project I take on (at least until this one is finished) ;-)
Thank you for posting the pic. Quite a place! And thanks for letting us know you have removed the stucco.
Can you maybe post one of the work you've done so far on your house? I for one am interested in following the progression of this one.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
There's a house just up the street from me (in Minneapolis) that looks very much like the Muir house you posted, right down (up?) to the cupola, but the quoins are quite a bit larger than those in the picture. I believe it's circa 1870-1880. On the one in my neighborhood the wood siding was scored to look like large blocks of stone, and then sand was mixed with the paint to give it the texture of stone. From what I understand this was a fairly common treatment back in those days, and this particular house is one of the few left in Minneapolis from that era that has survived intact.
Edited 3/16/2004 6:44 pm ET by Stuart
What started out as a simple question (I was only asking for "wood choice" suggestions, for goodness sake) has evolved into an interesting debate….
I understand that there are differences of opinions out there on what is "historic" and what isn’t. I also understand that some question the wisdom of replacing missing elements that were original to the building when, in the context of modern standards, they don’t make sense.
Who decides what has historic significance? Uncle? The homeowner? The answer is that in most cities, states, and on the national level, the "community" actually makes the decision. This is done through their elected officials who will often place a structure on a "register of historic places." At least in a legal sense, these structures are deemed to have "historic significance"—perhaps because of the person who lived there, the architectural style, the builder, or because a significant historical event took place there. Whether Uncle or I agree with the decision of our elected officials is moot…Legally the structure is deemed to have "historic significance." And by law (at least in California—and I’m sure in a number of other states), there are restrictions placed on the owner regarding what he or she can do to the structure.
Generally, these "restrictions" take the form of requiring one to follow the Secretary of the Interior’s Standards for Rehabilitation (see guidelines below). (BTW, what I described as a "restoration" is actually a "rehabilitation plan." I initially described it as a restoration, because most people think of "fixing up an old home" as a "restoration."). Failing to follow the Secretary’s Standards may also require a filing of an EIR through California’s CEQA law. Because of these additional burdens placed on the owner of a "historic structure," many states have also passed legislation that provides for corresponding "benefits" (like a potential reduction in property tax, and the ability to follow a more "relaxed" State Historic Building Code) for individuals who follow the Secretary of the Interior’s Standards.
So why I am considering placing wooden quoins on a wooden building? Three reasons:
Now, some of you may think this is draconian. I’m sure some take the purely Libertarian point of view that "it’s my property and if I want to tear down the structure and replace it with a Jiffy Lube, I’ll do what I damn well please." Other hardcore preservationist might feel that the Secretary’s Standards are not extreme enough and should require a true "authentic restoration" (including no plumbing or electricity). I fall in the middle, and feel that the Secretary’s Standards allow a "historic structure" to be livable—with modern conveniences while retaining a sense of history. However, whether you or I agree really doesn’t matter. The law, enforced via our local Building Department, requires me to replace the quions. I am happy to oblige.
Below are the Secretary of the Interior’s Standards for Rehabilitation (that I’m required to follow). But one should note, that there are Secretary Standards for other treatments as well: Preservation, Restoration, and Reconstruction. If you are interested, you can look at: http://www2.cr.nps.gov/tps/secstan2.htm
REHABILITATION IS DEFINED AS the act or process of making possible a compatible use for a property through repair, alterations, and additions while preserving those portions or features which convey its historical, cultural, or architectural values.
REHABILITATION AS A TREATMENT. When repair and replacement of deteriorated features are necessary; when alterations or additions to the property are planned for a new or continued use; and when its depiction at a particular period of time is not appropriate, Rehabilitation may be considered as a treatment.
Edited 3/17/2004 11:20 am ET by PNUTIII
Edited 3/17/2004 11:22 am ET by PNUTIII
I too am surprised by the course this thread has taken.
I'm surprised that you've spent so much time and effort justifying your decision. I never asked why you want to replace the quoins. I don't care why you want to replace the quoins. It is a matter of utter indifference to me whether you're doing it for historical restoration, or legally mandated historical rehabilitation, or to keep the demons from eating your first born child. No possible reason you could offer will shake my opinion that quoins on a wood sided building are an excrescence. De gustibus non est disputandum.
The interesting question to me is, why do you care what I think of quoins? I'm an anonymous maniac on a web forum, remember? What could you possibly hope to gain by convincing me that those quoins belong there?
Edited 3/17/2004 12:59 pm ET by Uncle Dunc
Uncle Dunc,
Add this anonymous stalker to your camp. Trying to preserve something that should be listed in Old House Journal's Remuddling section is crazy....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Uncle--
What's good for the goose...Why do you keep responding? Why did you even respond in the first place--especially when you didn't even bother to respond to the question?
My original question was about wood choice...remember? You may recall that I didn't ask for you asthetic opinion on quoins. YesMa'am responded to the question, even though he/she didn't like the idea of quoins--I appreciate the input.
Not trying to justify my decision here (that had already been done). I am actually enjoying the conversation--as it gives an opportunity for others to learn about the various aspects of historic restoration/preservation/rehabilitation/reconstruction--and how it may relate to the home remodeling industry. In the past, others on this board have taken a lot of time and effort to provide information that I found helpful. I wanted to do the same. You may also note that my last response wasn't to you, but to the group as a whole--in case someone found some useful information. If you don't care, don't respond. My feelings won't be hurt.
I didn't mean to offend you by bringing up the topic. I have rather enjoyed the questions/responses--including yours.
>> Why do you keep responding?
Because you keep feeding me straight lines.
>> Why did you even respond in the first place ...
Because I felt honor bound to smite the forces of darkness wherever I find them.
>> I didn't mean to offend you by bringing up the topic.
I assume you mean the topic of restoration, or possibly the topic of the west coast Italianate style? No, those didn't offend me in the least. What offended me was that you repeatedly attributed opinions to me that I do not hold and had not expressed.
Where do you live? I ask because it makes quite a difference in determining a suitable species and also what might be available to begin with.
Any advise that neglects your locaton might not be of much help.
-duke
N. California...I appreciate any info...