Radial Arm Saws – Where’s They Go?
I was looking around last night and noticed that radial arm saws have largely disappeared from the consumer market place. It took me a quite a while searching to reach that conclusion. I was a bit surprised at this.
I did notice that the top dollar chop saws, err, … excuse me, I meant to say, “miter saws” are now coming with a sliding arm. This makes them very much like a radial arm saw.
So, guys, if I want a saw with greater cross cut capacity and easier use when cross-cutting long boards, should I buy a sliding arm miter saw, or go buy an “old fashioned, albeit used, radial arm saw.
I am not a professional, so transportability means very little to me. I do only like accurate saws. Put another way, I hate a saw that is inaccurate (wobbly).
Replies
Radial arm saws tended to bite people because the rotation of the blade could hog the saw into the work and toward the operator.
In my opinion the SCMS is a safer and more versatile machine (not to mention more portable too, although you indicated that's not important). It's safer because you plunge the saw into the work and push against the rotation. If it jams it tends to get thrown out of the work, not into it.
Not to say it's foolproof though. I've had mine jam a few times and jump back at me. Wakes you up in a hurry.
Scott.
Every old guy still has one in his a shop. Just being around one scares me silly. It doesn't matter there you are, if someone is using one nearby, pieces of wood are always whistling past and imbedding themselves deep into the wall. I'm glad they are mostly gone.
I've had several kickbacks over the years with my table saw.
I've never had even one with my RAS.
It seems to be the tool of choice for older DIYers. They often don't have a table saw and use it for ripping and, well, everything - like it's some fantastic multitool. The owner of the resort I do some work for wanted me to use the one in his shop. It was wobbly and dangerous, even after Sears came out and tuned it up. The maintenance guy and I have hidden it in an old shed. I think the owner has forgotten about it.
Ripping on a RAS is more often a huge mistake not due to the saw, but the proper fence, and anti kick back pawls, and other hold downs.
Fear, inexp, and lack of common sense and basic understanding of physics is the problem. Once ya know what yer doin, its a breeze.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"lack of common sense and basic understanding of physics is the problem."I've always said that. You have to think about what is physically happening at the moment you're doing it. The slightest pressure up, down, or sideways can be catastrophic.
Like Shep I find the table saw more likely to kick back than the RAS. Although that is perhaps because out of respect (fear) I always ran the RAS with the appropriate anti-kickback pawls in place while ripping. With the table saw when making non-repetitive cuts I usually don't set up a finger board but I ALWAYS stand to the left of any small piece I am ripping (ie out of the line of fire).I suspect that most of the problems people had with the RAS comes from poorly set up machines not operated properly (isn't that always the case?). I still use my Dewalt 580 RAS, which I bought about 30 years ago, frequently and it is a fine tool. It is set it up to produce a cut of 90* (about a 16" crosscut)and I never change that setting. The vast majority of the cuts I make in the shop are 90* if I want an angle I go to another machine or place the piece at an angle to the track of the blade using a secondary fence.
best way to have kick back with a ras is, turn it on.
i have only had my fingers bleed from 1 saw,dewalt ras, have no idea how but all it did was saw the skin off my fingertips. blood everwhere,i thought they were gone, so i stuck them in my mouth and cleaned em off, man it was good feeling seeing all 5.
still got the saw ,hasn't been turned on for 8-10 yearsthe older i get ,
the more people tick me off
IMO, one of the few things that makes a RAS dangerous is having the carriage too loose on the arm.
I don't know about the rest, but on a DeWalt, the bearings that the carriage rides on in the arm can be adjusted so its there's a little tension when you make a cut. Having the carriage properly adjusted makes a huge difference in safety.
I've said this before and caught a lot of flak.
The best and safest way to cross cut with a rad arm is pull the head out all the way, slide the stock behind the blade along the fence. hit the stop or mark on the fence/table and push the saw back like a slider works.
I'd cut hundreds of 2" thick alder guitar blanks in a day, and not once, had any isssues.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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The tendency for the RAS to self feed is something I expect and hence not typically issue for me. However rather than pushing the saw head as you suggest wouldn't a negative hook blade be a quicker/safer option? I would prefer not to be sliding pieces between a running blade and the fence and stopping the blade between cuts would get tedious.
My exp goes back before there was any such blade. And on the big ones, it would have been nice, but just not feasable.
Even now, with 35 yrs of wood working, I don't think I own a neg hook blade.
Never had a problem sliding the wood, but I can where some would. Shutting it on and off is definitly not my style. I have a 50's B&D and 70's Sears, both freewheel quite a spell.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
radial arms started going out of favor when sliding miter saws hit the market. they are lighter,way more accurate,and hardly ever go out of adjustment,and safer. if you have enough money to by a new 10 or12 slider thats what i would do.
if you only have a 100. to spend then look for a good radial arm. there on craigslist all the time. the other day a guy had a really nice dewalt ,he wanted to give away!
what has had a effect on the supply is sears has a recall on almost all of them that they sold for 30 years,send them the motor and they will send you a 100 bucks. thats what i did with mine.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
some things like cutting dados are easier on the RAS and you can raise and lower the blades on a RAS..also you can rip boards but to me thats what my table saws are for and much less dangerous imo. For the most part I stick with my big 12" SCMSView Image
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"what has had a effect on the supply is sears has a recall on almost all of them that they sold for 30 years,send them the motor and they will send you a 100 bucks."That is not totally accrate.They can out with replacement guards for many of the models.Only for those that they did find practical to make replacement guards did they "buy back"..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Yes - I got the new-design replacement guard and the new 1-1/8" MDF table for free; tuned up my saw with the new stuff and it's been great ever since -
Forrest
RA saws did a lot of things but did not do any single thing very well. I had several of them and never did like them. I love my slider and cabinet saw.
My wife gave me a new one for Xmas one year. I sold it the next month. Never felt comfortable using it.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
My RAS was my first stationary power tool. It still has an honored spot in my workshop. I use it far more than my "chop" saw when building furniture-type stuff. I use my chop saw far more when building construction-type stuff. I use it almost exclusively for 90° stuff, and the arm and carriage are pretty much left there. Cross cuts and dadoes on the RAS, and rips on the TS. In fact, I think that the RAS is far safer than the TS for crosscuts.
Although the blade does tend to push the saw towards you when operating, it's not really dangerous if you keep your hands outa the red zone. If it does "bite", it pretty much simply stalls the blade in the wood. Contrary to urban legend, it will not leap off the arm and cut you. ;-) Kickbacks are rare with RASs, and when they do happen, they are, by definition, sent safely away from the operator towards the rear of the machine, not launched like a javelin towards the operator like with a TS.
I wouldn't be without one, but it wouldn't be the first thing on my shopping list either, if I wuz just starting out. Bottom line is it all depends on what you're planning to do. Used properly in conjunction with other tools, they are great machines. Well, at least the good ones are. There was a lot of junk out there when they were popular.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
I'm hopeless. I have 2 in my shop. AND a Bosch 12" slider AND a Kobalt 10" slider, AND a Delta 10" compound non slider.
Help.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Yeah, well , if I had a Tajmashop like you do, I'd have a whole bunch more too! ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
IMO, the only RAS ever worth buying was a DeWalt. Its the only saw that could be fully adjusted, for square to the table, to the fence, and to eliminate heeling in the cut.
I currently have 2- a DW 7770 10" saw I bought new over 30 years ago, and a 7790 12" saw that my local lumber yard was going to throw away. The 12" saw needs to be overhauled, but will be my main cut off saw when I get it done. It'll cut 16" wide material, something no slider can do.
I believe a proper tuned DeWalt RAS, with the cast iron arm, is at least as accurate as any slider available today.
i have an old dewalt also, i only use it for cross cutting with a forrest blade, i get no tear when i cross cut birch plywood, i have a long wood table to the left and right of the saw, and with a stop on my extended fence i can flip a piece of plywood over and cross cut over 24" (if your saw is set up right it will be dead on), i have my radial arm saw to the left of my table saw and at the same height as the table top of the table saw, i can rip a piece of plywood and slide it onto the radial arm saw extention tbles with out lifting the playwood, as for the saw wanting to self feed, i have never found this to be an issue if you are aware of the tendency of the saw to do this and contoll the feed rate with a frim grip instead of allowing the saw to dertermine the feed rate by letting it get away from you-i wouldnt be without it
i do like the portable sliders for angle work, but for crosscuting a piece of plywood the radial arm saw is the king
You really have not used a radial arm saw until you have used a "unipoint". This saw is the design base for the modern miter and slider saw. I believe they are still made by Northfield woodworking machinery and follow nearly the same basic design since they were first made by American saw mill machinery in about 1935.
Theres' still a lot of value in a RAS in a shop like the others have said. To me, nothing beats the cross cut ability of the RAS. The bigger the better in RAS'. Sliders are popular due to their portability and are not a replacement to an RAS but another tool with as much value.
Mike,
When I set up my first "shop" at least 30 years ago I could only afford one major tool and that was a Sears RAS. I cut the ends of boards, ripped boards, and dado'ed boards and made a lot of furniture. I won't go into detail about the first board I ripped because I still shutter. Many years later I was able to afford a table saw. Still have and use that RAS but not for ripping. A couple of years ago I purchased a 12' sliding chop saw and have found it much handier to use for cutting off boards and mitering boards.
I missed the Sears recall so if anyone has info on that, it would be interesting to check out.
http://rasrecall.com/
Junkhound,
Thanks for the info. I went to the site and my saw model is included on the recall list. Appreciate your post.
I won't go into detail about the first board I ripped because I still shutter.
Bought mine about 1970. Came with a molding head included.
Suicide accessory would better describe that thing.
Never found the cutter blade, the test piece survived because it was a length of 2x4.
I survived as it scared the hell out of me just looking & listening to it. I was way out of the launch path when lift off occured.
Still have the saw, molding head was never used again. Still have it though I think.
I have a Delta sawbuck too, it used to be a handy thing for compound angels.
Joe H
Still have my sawbuck I bought in '88, but I haven't used it more than a couple of times in the last 10 years!John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
>>>I won't go into detail about the first board I ripped because I still shutter.Yup. It's a piece of history. I remember a time when the RAS was touted as the greatest thing to ever hit woodworking. There were films, books, and all kinds of brochures promoting it for rips, dadoes, cross cuts, you name it. Not so much any more.Nonetheless, I've got some fond memories of using a monstrous old DeWalt RAS at a school I used to work at (from the days before B&D owned DeWalt). Must have had a 16" blade. It had so much mass that it would always walk a steady pace through your material, and the rails were as smooth as silk.Scott.
Edited 11/11/2009 9:04 pm by Scott
>Must have had a 16" blade<
was looking at one of those brand new from DW not too long ago at the nearby machinery sales place. No place for it right now so didn't even bother to look at the price.
I used to run 16's and 20's in various shops. Always keep a scrap handy to slow the blade to a stop, or wait till next week for it to do it on it's own.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
yeah, I ran the monsters too in the shops 20+ years ago. Don't remember the size of the last one but don't think it was 16" but def over 10".
DW was asking about some of the machines the other day and I started telling her about my exp in the shops. One shop I was in while in nightschool for my A&P I made RPs all day long. Went from the TS, to the planer, 3-belt thickness sander, to the RAS, to the shaper. Lather rinse repeat. Then it occurred to me, over 20 years later that I spent most of my time on the most (IMO) dangerous machines (TS, RAS, Shaper) in the shop. No one else had that much TOT than me and I still have 5 on 2. Earbuds in my ear muffs and my walkman helped a lot. No way could they get me to spend more than 10 minutes on the straight-liner. That thing scared the he!! out of me but the guy running it ran it all day long with no qualms. Intersting where we create our comfort zones.
Pallet mill saws scared the bejeezus outta me. I ran a multiple end trimmer....5 5HP 14" saw heads that move on a rail...set the blade to blade distance at say 4 spaces of 42"..that means a 14' oak "rail" or 1x4, 2x4, 1x6'....will make 4 @ 42"
But it was a chain drive, and I stood at the end and Flopped 3 1x6 at a time onto the chains and dogs carried them thru the blades. Or 2 2x4's (stacked) or some times 6 @ 1/2" x4"....
That saw then dumped onto a conveyer and that dumped onto a 12' dia. steel rotating table. 3 , 4 guys would "find" the 48" out of maybe 24" and 36" and that guy stacked them, another guy got the 36"..and so on.
I could SWAMP that table and kill those poor new guys..cuz I started on the table myself, and KNEW how hard it was..LOL.
UPcut whirlwinds, swing saws ( like a pendulumn) gang resaws, you name it, I ran it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Reminds me of the time I stopped by this old patternmaker's place. This would have been about 30 years ago, and he'd been in business forever.OLD tools.Anyway, he was just finishing lunch, so we walked back out to his shop... where the disk sander was still spinning.AitchKay
I completely agree on ripping with the RAS being fine to do. I use a few guides on tricky cuts and watch my body positioning while working with it and have no problems. I've been using one heavily for going on 4 years now for ripping and cross cutting with no problems whatsoever.
Scott,I've got some fond memories of using a monstrous old DeWalt RAS at a school I used to work atThis conjured up a memory I would just a soon forget. In my high school shop there was a RAS such as you describe and as a safety lesson on the saw, the teacher would have us students stand way back and then throw a small piece of board in the spinning blade. Naturally it would send the board all the way across the shop and we were all impressed at the saw's power. Even though he was my all time favorite teacher I was more impressed with how dumb this demonstration was. Years later I became a Shop teacher but rest assured that this demo was not in my safety lessons.
>>>Even though he was my all time favorite teacher I was more impressed with how dumb this demonstration was. Ah, yes... the salty old shop teachers that we grew up with. It's a different culture now. I had one that used to huck pipe wrenches across the concrete floor at recalcitrant students. There were the quick and the bruised. Then lawyers got involved.Hard to say which is better. I'd say today's teachers are generally more organized and better educated. But the ones back then certainly left memorable impressions that kids like me have carried around for life. Edit: I use the term "kids like me" quite loosely and in the past tense.....I'm hardly a kid any more....... :(Scott.
Edited 11/12/2009 12:09 am by Scott
"Nonetheless, I've got some fond memories of using a monstrous old DeWalt RAS at a school I used to work at (from the days before B&D owned DeWalt)."IIRC those where really too "different" DeWalts.DeWalt either sold of the RAS business or had gone bankrupt before being bought by B&D.BTW, those saws are still being made.http://www.originalsaw.com/Used in lumber yards for cutting large beams. And for cutting aluminum billets.And this company specializes in rebuilding them..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
>>>IIRC those where really too "different" DeWalts.The DeWalt saw that I remember didn't look like anything on the "Original Saw" website. It must have been made in the mid-20th century. Big, heavy, probably 240V, maybe even 3 phase. It had the same look and feel as the old hefty Unisaws; lots of cast iron and steel. Those were the days.....
How about this one?http://flint.craigslist.org/tls/1464459848.html
I had a picture there for a minute. Let's see...Doesn't seem to want to attach.AitchKay
Saw it. (pardon the pun)Yup, that's getting close. Scott.
I've had a Monkey Wards RAS for almost 35 years. Did a lot with it in the 70s.Since then, though, I've used it mostly for sharpening -- the easy height and front/back adjustability make for precision hollow grinds.The weak link with the MW for sawing is torque, because the motor spins at 20,000 RPM, with the arbor geared down to 3,450. So it tends to bog down unless run Sphere-style, front-to-back, which I did a lot.The cool thing is the 20,000 take-off spindle, with accessory router and shaper (yes, SHAPER) heads! Kids, don't try this stuff at home!Lots of kinky options there, especially for guys who stay up late, smoking pot and playing what-if!YOW!AitchKay
>>>the motor spins at 20,000 RPM, with the arbor geared down to 3,450.20K? Are you serious? It must take a while to spin up the gears, sorta like a helicopter motor.>>>Kids, don't try this stuff at home!Roger that.>>>Lots of kinky options there, especially for guys who stay up late, smoking pot and playing what-if!Cool, but none of that for me while using power tools. My fingers make my living......perhaps in the off hours...Scott.
I had one of them too, Mom took it to the flea market. Now I got a brand new sears, I bought six years ago for $50, still had the protected plastic on it. I have never used it
I have a big 5 hp 16" 3 ph in the shop and love it. To those who say it is not as accurate as a slider or jumps at you, to that I would argue that either don't have much time on a RAS or don't have one large enough to do the job. I've cut 12/4 white oak with no trouble. And as for square, a big piece of cast metal on the boom arm works better than a slider and I also have a Kapex.
There's a book about radial arm saws that you should read.
It shows you how a radial arm can give you very good results.
I can't remember the name of it though.
Will Rogers
Thanks, I don't need any books on the topic. I was just wondering where they went, because the sliding chop saw seems to be evolving BACK in the direction of a radial arm saw.
Edited 11/12/2009 11:46 am ET by Mike_Mills
Did not metion in previous post, but I keep an extra old Sears RAS with a 10" HF diamond blade for a tile saw. Have a garden hose attached to the table (it's outside under a shed roof) and makes a nice wet saw.
Funny thread.This old guy still has and uses his 20yo Craftsman RAS. I've built several kitchens worth of cabinets and furniture for my wife's salon business, ripping ply, boards, crosscutting, dadoes, etc. It's worked fine (especially since I don't have a table saw) and never injured with it. But I always set up the guards and pawls correctly.Singed - cranky old guy who was trained as an Industrial Arts teacher.
The discusion seemed to be of two camps. So i thought some info on radial arms would bring some light on the subject.
The one thing that i don't like about use most ras is most won't cross cut far enough for me.
As I remember, one of the methods the author used was to sink the blade deeper into the table.
This acomplished two things.
It lessened the tendency for the blade to climb and feed as much.
It aslo stabilized the blade so your cuts were smoother.
Most ras are set up so the blade just cuts the table. He didn't use it that way most of the time. Smart guy!
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
I have 4 books on the RAS, plus ther owner's manual.
The oldest is "Newest ways to Expert Woodworking", by Robert Schiff, copyright 1962, published by Crown.
the next is "Radial Arm Saw Techniques", by Roger Cliffe, copyright 1986, published by Sterling.
next is "Fine Tuning Your Radial Arm Saw", by Jon Eakes, copyright 1987, also published by Sterling.
the last is I can't find right now, but was written by Wally Kunkel, aka Mr. Sawdust. It gives the history of the DW RAS, and very good instructions on setting one up.
I've just completed two jobs with 16" wide shelves, a variety of lengths, cut from plywood edgebanded with 1x2 stock. Kept thinking the whole time that it would be nice to have a RAS for all those cross cuts.John
I think I sent my copy to AndyFew, it was called "The Magic of your radial arm saw" Awesome book, I made raised panels on mine for years, and miles of German drop siding, feeding sideways into the blade.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
The local Home Depot has a RAS that gets used for making crosscuts for customers lumber purchases. Looks and sounds like a rock solid machine.
I have an old Sears one that seems to be a bench for putting things on, I am determined to set it up just never seem to get around to doing it.
When i was a young Framer the cats Meow was to have one on a trailer and the oldest carpenter cut the headers and trimmers and jacks on one.
I am going to but the next 50 dollar one i find at a garage sale set it up for siding jobs and just leave it on the job just daring anyone to steal it.
I will put a strange kind of cord on it though so it cannot be turned on..
I would like one set outside undercover by the garage so i can just cut and never have to look for the worm drive.
Yeah sure i have big dreams!
That sounds about right for universal motor. They typically are high speed and geared down wherever torque is needed.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
don't forget you could also sand and route with them as well.
>>>you could also sand and route with them as well.<cringe>
There's one of those old 20,000-RPM models on CL today -- Ann Arbor area.Feeling adventurous?AitchKay
Edited 11/21/2009 1:22 pm ET by AitchKay
>>>Feeling adventurous?Hahaha...not in the least.
Their day was done.
We sold a bunch (all donated) out of the OC Habitat ReStore. One was almost new and retailed for about $1400. Went for far less.
On our Irvine project in '97, we had one. It came on a trailer, liked 240 power, and we built in and out feed tables for it. It sat in the corner for the whole job and we brought the work to it.
Wanted to move it, you towed it.
Now days we deploy a number of CMS units on their own rolling fixtures to various parts of the job.
The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
"DeWalt either sold of the RAS business or had gone bankrupt before being bought by B&D."
B&D bought DeWalt about 1960 from AMF, Wolfe Machinery has the rights to the RAS line now.
Then DeWalt was a well regarded name, now it's just a name slapped on a line of cheap quality disposable tools.
So, then, what are y'all using to cut dadoes? crosscut sled on table saw?
k
Still use wobbly blade on RAS (up to 1" wide on one pass, mean looking blades though) when needing to do a lot of dadoes,
but one or 2 dadoes, router is faster setup.
While that is one of the best jobs for a RAS, it's also one of the worst.
If you are Tennoning stock that is narrow it's a dream. If you are notching a 4x4, its a dream. If you are dadoing a cabinet side for a 14" upper cab, no way.
The reason is the table, unless it is perfectly parallel to the arm, the dado will be sloped. And unless the stock is perfectly thicknessed, you will also impart error, be/c you are referenceing from the back side of the work.
A TS and sled, reads off the same face as the dado, as would a router.
I love my ras, and use it them for everything imaginable, but everything has abuilt in weakness component, due to the flexibilty of the machine, and what surfaces are being used as face and datum.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
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I had forgotten that.It has been a while since I used mine for anything but storage. And before that it was just for cutting down some PT to make short pieces.But that caused me headaches more than once,.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"crosscut sled on table saw?"
Yes or a router table.
I have to admit I shouldn't be commenting. I generally detail my trim to compensate for my poor finishing skills.
Me too. face frames hide all that anyway...
k