Replies

1. 
   CloudHidden | Jun 25, 2002 02:20am | #1

   Where are you located? Were heat-loss calcs done for the house? What btu is the boiler?

   But almost regardless of that answer, you can certainly find an effective system for a whole lot less, and donate half the savings you'll see for buying the beer at the next Breaktime Fest.

   I'm sure others will answer with more details, but I know enough to say that unless I'm missing key info, you don't need to spend 20K to heat 1,100 sf of floors.

2. 
   blackcloud | Jun 25, 2002 10:27am | #2

   Hank,

   20K is a bit much for 1100 sqft, hopefully that is at least an installed price.  If you use a boiler like a Budarus, then find a Dealer willing to work with you where you run the tubing after he has done the design work, boiler setup you should cut your price in half.  Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

   jw

3. 
   PhilipArdrey | Jun 25, 2002 08:25pm | #3

   I agree, $20K is a lot for 1,100 sq ft.  I just built a house and used Radiantec's system.  My system includes 4 zones to heat each storey of a 2-storey 2,500 sq ft house, plus a zone for a 1,650 sq ft basement, plus a zone for a 2-car garage.  Total cost is approximately $8,000.  I installed the system myself so you have to figure in the installation cost if you don't do it yourself.

   Also, if you plan on having AC, then your total costs for a complete HVAC system goes up because the heating system doesn't utilize the AC air ducts.

   Wirsbo is another company that makes radiant heating products (http://www.wirsbo.com).  I have a friend who used their system for part of his home and also installed it in part of his business.

   Have you considered buying the Radiantec system and hiring a plumber or another installer to install it for you?  The Radiantec estimate of $4K plus the installation cost should be less than the $20K estimate.

   The two systems work and would be installed in similar ways.  The main difference is that you could also use the Radiantec hot water heater to heat the potable water for your sinks, showers, etc.  The German boiler would be exclusively used to heat the house and you would use a separate hot water heater for showers, etc.  So you could also save the cost of a separate hot water heater by using the Radiantec system.

   Another option with the Radiantec system is to have a "closed" system where the hot water heater would heat both the subfloor water and the potable water for showers, etc. but the two would not mix.  You would install a heat exchanger.  The German boiler system is a "closed" system.

   In my opinion, if you understand the benefits of the Radiantec system (I am using an "open" system, as opposed to a "closed" system), then it seems like it will work efficiently.  (I should note, however, that I am not quite finished installing the system and I have not actually used it yet - but I have high expectations come winter time!).  Radiantec has been very helpful in answering questions from a do-it-yourselfer like me.  Radiant floor heating is the way to go - especially with hard wood floors, but price is also one of my top priorities, although quality is ranks one step ahead of price.

1. 
   Wet_Head | Jun 26, 2002 06:09pm | #5

   Sorry partner, but anyone who promotes Radiantec's system is totally ignorant of physics, facts, common sense, etc.  I hate to be so blunt but you are dead wrong.  Don't even try to argue.  I won't argue.  It is so blatantly wrong if I have to prove it then I am speaking with a moron.  If anyone sincerely wants to know what I am talking about I will be happy to answer, providing my lawyer approves.  (I, along with some other pros,am in the middle of instigating legal action (class action maybe????) against this company for fraudulant advertising and violating consumer protection laws. 

   They are the biggest rip off in the world of radiant heating.  Sure, there are a few people who are happy with their systems... for now...

1. 
   CloudHidden | Jun 26, 2002 07:01pm | #6

   Wet Head, if you lawyer allows, can you calmly explain to me the problem. I've never used or really looked at their stuff--Wirsbo and Kitec for me thus far--so I don't know the issues involved.

   Also, it 20K a reasonable or excessive budget for RFH for 1100 sf?

   Also, the tape should be on it's way to you this week. Can you make sure to send it to Beckman next, please? Thanks,

   Jim

1. 
   Wet_Head | Jun 26, 2002 08:09pm | #7

   Wet Head, if you lawyer allows, can you calmly explain to me the problem. I've never used or really looked at their stuff--Wirsbo and Kitec for me thus far--so I don't know the issues involved.

   I will be in touch this week and will ask. I exclusively use Kitec and Wirsbo.  My issues are not so much with the brand of tube as other things. 

   Also, it 20K a reasonable or excessive budget for RFH for 1100 sf?

   I have installed similar square footage systems for as low as $9K and as high as $27.5K.  It all depends on the components of the system... and the installer.  There are very good installers and very poor ones and everything inbetween.  many of the things that make you good are expensive (continuing education for example) and drive costs up.  But price is not the only indicator of competence since you know as well as I do that there are exceptions to this.

   Having said this... an average system of this size with high quality componenets and decent control strategies would run you about $15K if I did it.  No towel bars for this money though!

   Also, the tape should be on it's way to you this week. Can you make sure to send it to Beckman next, please?

   You betcha!

    

   PS.  I had a really nice (and long) reply wrote out originally and lost it when I went to post it... hence the short and curt reply.  Sorry to all.

2. 
   HHGarvey | Jun 27, 2002 05:46am | #8

   Please give me some info on why this system is not one to use?  I would like to better understand the diffrence.  The german boiler is the Viessmann boiler VB2-18, oil fired, 200 outdoor reset and system control, 1 inch three way mixing valve, Vito 200 Actuating motor kit, Vitocell-H-300 EVA 42 gallon indorect water heater.  Quik trak panels that I agreed to install to save cost.  They are doing the install of the 5/16th tubing from Wirsbo along with the manifold, thermostats, telestats and zone modules.  We have a three bedroom house, a bath and a large living room/kitchen area.  The guy that gave me the estimate was very good to work with and did a heat lose plan which included total are of

   994 sf, min tubing required 1,752 ft, min heat load 17,122 btu/hr, 9 loops, number of zones 5, two manifolds

   I don't know what else I can give you off this info I have if there is other stuff you need to give me a suggestion please shout.  I guess my question is have I looked at the high end and should be looking at a American boiler and just run baseboard?  We really like the radiant heat and right now only have subfloor in the house so the tiem is now to change it if we want.  We currently have a hot air system and dislike it a lot.  We live near the ocean and only have a 1K sf ranch.  Not planning on going up only remodel what we have.  We thought the cost would be a little higher but not this high.  I was then looking at Radiantec and thought here is another solution but I have some reservations about it.  I don't know if the open system that they have is prone to bacteria issues and I don't want to get my family sick for sure.  I also have read the importance of getting a system that has a outdoor reset on the system and they do not.  Could you please help me with some ideas on the good and bad of each system and is there another alternative that I ahve not looked into?  Thank you very much for your help.  HHG

1. 
   KCPLG | Jun 27, 2002 06:43am | #9

   Hank

   As a user of Viessmann products I would say you are dealing with a first class installer and what he has quoted you is the mercedez benz of RFH systems. You can still go higher into the ferrari region or you could scale back to a cadillac system and still go with Viessmann and Wirsbo Products (Just about the only products I use on my projects).

   A few things I can comment on are.

   You say the min. heat loss is 17,122 BTU what is the Max.?

   Ask your installer to break out the price for the Wirsbo quick trak

   Price out a Vitorond 200 instead of the Vitola 200

   Go with less zones or one zone and adjust the heat with balancing valves instead (if you pre-wire for thermostats you can always add the telestats at a later date)

   Go with the Vitocell 100 indirect fired storage tank won,t be guaranteed as long as Vitocell 300 but hey its cheaper.

   One thing to note I have not installed Quick trak for a while and do not have the installation guide here but my calculations say you would need 14 loops of 5/16 tubing I could be wrong but if I remember correctly the maximum loop length is 125'

   My feeling would be to work with this installer, tell him what your budget is and that you want a good system but cannot afford the system he has spec'd

   Of course anyone with the "gift for the gab" could have given you this quote and not have a clue what they are doing so I am assuming you have already checked this installer out. Right?

   Well good luck and let us know how this turns out.

   Edited 6/26/2002 11:46:36 PM ET by KC

2. 
   CloudHidden | Jun 27, 2002 07:33am | #10

   I was struck by the number of zones for the space. 5 zones in under 1000 sf? We have 5 for over 6000 sf spread across 3 floors, and that was engineered by Wirsbo. I agree with the suggestion above to consider fewer, or even just one, zones and good balancing of the loops.

4. 
   DavidThomas | Jun 25, 2002 08:49pm | #4

   I heat my own 1,700 square foot hose with a direct-vent hot water heater (Rheem, 42,000 BTU/hour) which cost $560.  Basic manifold, a few pumps, a few thermostats.  Total cost, about $2,200 including the HWH, all the PEX, pumps, copper, etc.  Install was "sweat equity".  Your climate is NOT as extreme as mine (design temp = -40F, but the heating system could handle colder).  But your house is almost certainly not as tight and well insulated (0.07 air changes per hour.  R-60/70 ceilings, R-35 walls).  I considered a 93% HWH but 1) the payback wasn't there and 2) It wouldn't work during a power failure like my HWH will.  If a power failure lasts more than a day, and the house starts to cool off, I can run my circ pumps off an invertor from the car and have heat without running a generator.

   My HWH also provides domestic hot water, so from one perspective, my space heating "boiler" cost $0.  And I saved 6 to 8 square feet of utility room space at $80/sq ft.  I went direct-vent to help achieve that very low leakage rate and to improve safety vis-a-vis carbon monoxide posioning.

   David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska