Replies

1. 
   whoodle | Nov 04, 2005 01:55pm | #1

   Replying to myself.  I did search around here, but it doesn't look like anyone has commented recently.  I did not notice anything on the wb site about blocking under the return loops.  Is it still necessary with the 1 1/8 inch panels?

1. 
   RotorW333 | Nov 04, 2005 02:04pm | #2

      I seriously considered using it but could not find a way to make the cost work. I 'home built' something very similar for 1/3 the cost and it is working just fine

2. 
   johnnyd | Nov 04, 2005 03:19pm | #3

   Is this new construction or a retro-fit?

   Warmboard is a well designed product that probably only becomes economical when it is used as both the structural subfloor and the heat emitter system.  There are others (Quick-track, Rehau, and more) that are designed more for top-of-subfloor applications and work better in retro-fits.

   And if you have time, tools, and good knees, it is certainly possible to create your own system using plywood sleepers, aluminum plates, and PEX tubing.  Like the other poster said, about 1/3 the cost not counting your labor.

   Re: the "glassy house in Vermont" you need to do or have done a comprehensive, room-by-room heat loss calculation inorder to deign the emitters, heat soiurce and control stratrgy.

3. 
   NRTRob | Nov 04, 2005 05:13pm | #4

   The concept is *very* different than quik trak. Quik trak is a fast and dirty solution. Warmboard is absolute king of the hill for radiant installation methods. it outperforms concrete systems in most cases... pretty good stuff right there.

   However, it is also costly. Then again, it's relatively quick to install. On the other hand, you have to do lots of custom grooves OR lay the pipe before you do your partition framing and then protect the pipe until the finish floor goes down.

   Not a simple question ;)

   In general, we find DIY'er find much better value in making their own dry systems using plywood and either lightweight or heavy gauge plates. Warmboard and other prefab products are usually best for contractors who can reduce their labor and thus make up some of the increased materials cost that way.

   Also, while there is *absolutely no doubt* that Warmboard is a *truly excellent* product, whether or not you really need the output it is capable of, however, or the installation advantages, depends on the project. You might. You might find that a DIY sandwich is fine. You might find that in your glassy VT house *no* radiant floor will do the job without some help from supplemental heat. These are things a room-by-room heat load calculation can answer, and no radiant project should be begun without one.

   Finally though, if you have the money and you want the best, Warmboard is what you're looking for. Raupanel from Rehau is the only other prefab that can compete with it.

   -------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com
1. 
   marv | Nov 04, 2005 06:42pm | #5

   What does Warmboard cost per sheet?You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

   Marv

1. 
   NRTRob | Nov 04, 2005 06:57pm | #6

   I believe it's $169-$189 a sheet depending on how large your job is, plus tubing etc.-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com

1. 
   RotorW333 | Nov 04, 2005 07:23pm | #7

      Wow a much better price than I was ever quoted and I was needing enough for 5,000 sq ft. I only have one distributor within 50 miles and the folks at 'corporate' weren't helpfull at all in finding an alternative supplier.

2. 
   johnnyd | Nov 04, 2005 07:29pm | #8

   So that's actually a pretty good deal if you compare, say , Advantech 3/4" T&G @ $35/sheet, 3/4" CDX @ $28/sheet, roughly equivalent ThermoFin coverage @ (Do you know the numbers Rob?)...and then figure the labor to put the subfloor down as a wash, ADD the labor to rip the CDX down and screw it down, ADD the labor to cut the 180*s and screw them down, and then ADD the labor to screw the plates down.  the tubing cost and labor to install would wash.  A bit more for someone to put all the pieces together, get them to the job site, and quality control.

1. 
   NRTRob | Nov 04, 2005 07:50pm | #9

   By my numbers, figuring nothing for labor, lightweight DIY's are about 1/3rd and heavyweight DIY's (thermofin) are about 1/2 warmboard's cost. That's pretty substantial. If labor is free, that usually makes the decision. Of course Warmboard performs better than either... but not *that* much better than a heavyweight DIY sandwich method.That pricing is what you get when you call warmboard and order direct, which is primarily how they distribute around the country (note, shipping can get expensive, so maybe your local distributor has already rolled that cost into their Warmboards). I don't know much about how distributorships work out or what their deal is, but I imagine if a company has invested what it would take to become a true stocking distributor of warmboard, the MFG won't undercut them in their own territory.-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com

2. 
   marv | Nov 04, 2005 09:34pm | #10

   Rob-

   Thanks for the great advice.  You're fast becoming our radiant heat expert.

   heavyweight DIY sandwich method.

   Can you give us a description or drawing of this method?You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

   Marv

3. 
   NRTRob | Nov 04, 2005 10:09pm | #11

   I have attached a picture of a DIY lightweight sandwich, prior to stapling and tubing installation. As you can see, the installer has cut strips of plywood to use as infill, and left spaces for the tubing and plate grooves between the plywood strips. Also, rounded pieces were cut for tubing bends. At this stage, he has laid out the lightweight plates and will next staple one wing of the plate to the plywood, and then snap a PEX-AL-PEX tubing of some kind in the groove (PEX-AL-PEX is used here to fight noise possibilities, by reducing expansion).Then finished floors are installed over the assembly.A "Heavyweight" sandwich is one using extruded aluminum plates instead of lightweight plates like the ones in the attached picture. Thermofin "U" by Radiant Engineering is the only one I know of made for this purpose (there are others for joist installs though). The thicker aluminum is much better at conducting heat and so greater performance is the result, for roughly a 50% price increase over lightweight sandwich typically. Also a heavier stapler is needed.We occasionally mix and match types on a job; using heavy plates for higher load areas, and lighter plates for lower load areas. But I would not do this without a load calc to guide the choices. Of course, I am biased ;)-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com

   
4. 
   johnnyd | Nov 04, 2005 10:22pm | #12

   Looks remarkably like the one I did.  Aren't those kind of abrupt bends at the 180*s?  Also 180*s seem kind of close to the end for carpet strips some day. Whatever.

5. 
   NRTRob | Nov 04, 2005 10:25pm | #13

   This was a hardwood floor installation. I don't know much about carpet installation (other than, why do it if you have warm floors already!). They were a little abrupt but the PEX-AL-PEX handled it just fine. I suspect he backed the plates back a little from the bends once he started putting pipe in, as the plates are a bit close to the bends and would probably torque a bit more than we'd like to see.-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com

6. 
   johnnyd | Nov 04, 2005 10:38pm | #14

   FWIW, I used the bottom of a bucket as a pattern for a template that I used to cut my 180*end grooves, and used a 12" rip...the same width as my sleepers for the sleeper between wall edge and end groove.  I left some room in the end grooves for expansion there, but I used straight barrier PEX, not the PEX-AL-PEX.

7. 
   NRTRob | Nov 04, 2005 10:48pm | #15

   well, then you were playing with fire there ;) did you use lightweight or thermofin U? PAP is less important with the heavy plates, but since it's the same cost, there really isn't a reason to risk noise with regular PEX... PAP should always be used, if possible.-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com

8. 
   johnnyd | Nov 04, 2005 10:55pm | #16

   Light wieght plates.  As it turned out, though, (2nd heating season beginning) there is very little noise at any time.  Occasionally a muffled "thump" as the barrier coating catches and releases on expansion but that's a one time deal and goes away as soon as the hotter water makes one or two loops.

   Low water temperatures, a back-up and isolated WH that acts as a holding tank, a modulating electric boiler, and well attached (as well as some floating cork) finished floor all contribute, I'm sure.

   If I had it to do over again, though, I would use PEX-AL-PEX and more plates.  Cheap stuff to put in at install, nearly impossibly expensive to change later.

   Edited 11/4/2005 3:59 pm ET by johnnyd

4. 
   stinger | Nov 04, 2005 11:12pm | #17

   My heating contractor, for which I have a lot of respect, swears by Wirsbo's quick trak product, which is like warmboard, only it goes atop a subfloor.

   He is doing a glassy house in Lake Placid, NY for me right now, and all critical areas are getting supplemental heat with Runtal radiators, running at a higher water temp than the radiant in the floors.

1. 
   NRTRob | Nov 04, 2005 11:38pm | #18

   Contractors like quik trak because it goes in fast. It works, but just for comparison, let's say you have a 20 BTU/sq ft load under a wood floor.Quik trak will heat it w/125 degree water.Warmboard, with 95 degree water.If you have a condensing boiler especially, that's quite a drop (and a gain in efficiency).Now that's strictly a performance comparison, of course, each method has it's own deal for planning, scheduling during the construction, etc.Personally, I think quik trak is heavily overpriced for the performance you get from it. But it does go in quick, and it works.. just not as well as I like :D-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com

1. 
   stinger | Nov 05, 2005 12:06am | #19

   Since you are in the business, why not run us a cost comparison of quicktrak versus warmboard.

   I presume the warmboard goes on at framing time by the framing crew, but with close attention paid to the layout.  If they are just slamming down Advantech or Norboard subfloor, it's rock and roll panel time.

   Let's say the labor cost to do 1800 sf of regular deck is 3m x 1d, or let's say 25 mh at $40, total $1000.  Let's presume they will take 75% longer doing the Warmboard, so there is a premium of $750 for the 1800 sf, or 42 cents per square foot.

   Do we presume quick trak goes down after framing is done, therefore needs to be cut and fit to each room?  If so, my guess is the same 1800 of area will take 2 men 2 days to do it right, therefore quick trak is burdened by 32 mh of labor at $40 per, or $1280, which is a premium over the subfloor installation cost.

   So, add in what you know about quicktrak and warmboard material costs and show us the results.

   One more thing.  I forgot to mention that the current price for subfloor like Advantech is about 35 bucks a sheet, or $1.10/sf.

   Edited 11/4/2005 5:37 pm ET by Stinger

1. 
   NRTRob | Nov 05, 2005 12:19am | #20

   well, for quik trak you'd be purchasing from someone other than Wirsbo, so price can be quite variable. However, accounting for the savings of the subfloor w/Warmboard in this comparison, Quik Trak would probably weigh in 20-25% cheaper in material when all is said and done. Roughly, of course.Beyond saying Quik Trak would be more labor than Warmboard, I can't speak to your guesstimates on labor time though.-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com

1. 
   whoodle | Nov 05, 2005 01:10am | #21

   Hey folks,

   Great info.   I have an active account with wirsbo so I did indeed have all the heat loss calculations.  The warmboard areas required  25 btus.  One small room with high window ratio required 700 extra btu with the 8 inch on center staple up with plates making 25 btus.  The first floor has ten foot ceilings and the I joists are 16 oc.   I think that sounds like a tough installation.  Even though I am technically a diy, I earn a high wage so I have little time.   I looked at the specs vs quick track and the installation hassles and the warmboard looks alright at about 5.80 per foot.  My main reservation is if the warmbord really can produce better than the 25 btus.   I have gotten the design from wb, and it will certainly be trickier than 4x8 subfloor, but their cad people make a nice picture of where to use the offcuts.

5. 
   BoJangles | Nov 05, 2005 04:08am | #22

   We use some form of radiant heat in practically every home we build.  We have used Gypcrete,  concrete slabs,  lightweight concrete, and more recently, Warmboard.  We do all of the installation ourselves and find the overall cost of these different methods to be a wash.

   Warmboard is an excellent product.  For one thing, it can be installed by a skilled DIY who may want to work on his own home.  It is 1 1/8" 7 ply plywood with a skin of aluminum covering the entire surface.  You use 1/2" Pex- Alum- Pex tubing.  There is also a specific list of approved brands of Pex tubing to be used with the Warmboard. If you don't pay attention to this, you can end up with a noisy floor!!

   One of the drawbacks to the product is that it is susceptable to water damage, as is any plywood, if you get a lot of rain before the house is roofed in.  Another consideration is that you have to be careful you don't damage the tubing if you install it before the rest of the structure goes up.  Personally, I prefer to wait and install the tubing as late as possible.

   It normally costs us about $180 / sheet plus trucking (which could be expensive now).  They don't have many distribution points, so you may have to truck it a long distance.

   Performance wise, it is very responsive and is a good product to use with a modern condensing boiler.  We often install 3/4" hardwood flooring over the Warmboard and it works very well.

   We have often used it when remodeling classic old homes where we have to tear out the old subfloor and rebuild the floor structure.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 11/4/2005 9:10 pm ET by BoJangles

1. 
   whoodle | Nov 05, 2005 01:47pm | #23

   I am planning to get the roof over the warmboard in short order as winter could set in anytime.   How about the aluminum skin?  Does it get beat up during construction? and do you think the output will take care of my small room which needs the extra 700 btus?

1. 
   BoJangles | Nov 05, 2005 03:42pm | #24

   The aluminum skin is thin and easily dented.  Normal construction work will put small dents in it and cause the edges of the channels to dent slighly into the grooves.  This usually is not a problem, especially if the tubing is already installed in the grooves.

   You should get the installation kit which includes the round bar alignment tools.  You simply go around and pop out any channel dents before you install the tubing.  You will also get the templates and the router bit for making specially located channels. They will usually give you the kit if you buy a fairly sizeable amount of Warmboard.

   I have never had an instance where the board didn't supply enough heat to a particular area, assuming you have done everything you should to air seal and insulate properly.  You can also raise the water temperature in the tubing by various means.  With hardwood, you don't want to get it any hotter than necessary.

   Good luck!

    

    

2. 
   NRTRob | Nov 05, 2005 05:30pm | #25

   Warmboard can easily do 25 BTUs/sq ft. Only under thick carpets would you have to jack up the water temps too high, in which case no radiant floor will do the trick by itself.-------------------------------------
   -=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
   Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
   http://www.NRTradiant.com