Replies

1. 
   BossHog | Oct 03, 2008 05:35pm | #1

   I would schedule time to nail the rafters in place as soon as they're cut. No sense letting them lay around.

   (Sorry - Just poking fun)

   Cheops' Law: Nothing EVER gets built on schedule or within budget.

1. 
   blownonfuel | Oct 03, 2008 07:14pm | #2

   Very funny Boss very funny. Good one.

2. 
   Hudson Valley Carpenter | Oct 03, 2008 08:13pm | #3

   You did what?  Bought a framing gun?  

   Why?  Get tired of hitting your thumb?  ;-)

   But semi-seriously, I'd just use the gun for nailing sheathing to begin with if I were you.  

   I sure wouldn't try to use it on rafters.  Just too much trouble.  And dangerous as well.   

   But I'm kind of old fashioned about hand nailing.  Not unusual for a carpenter to drive over two thousand nails per day, by hand, in my time.   

1. 
   blownonfuel | Oct 03, 2008 09:32pm | #5

   Yeah i'll miss the blood blister and waffle marks. I'm just too slow at hand nailing and need to get this addition closed in so that's why I bought the framing gun.

1. 
   atrident | Oct 04, 2008 05:20am | #32

     You did get HDG nails didnt you? They grip a lot better than electroplated or plain. The "hurricaine "clips hold the roof assembly down far better. Since you are pushed for time get the roof up and install them as soon as possible. Palm nailers help here but since its only Tecos (short fat nails that go into the side of the rafter) and 8d that go into the top plates (check your Simpson on who ever manual for specifics).

3. 
   frenchy | Oct 03, 2008 09:10pm | #4

   Blownonfuel

    Do you have any issues with high winds(tornados, hurricanes?)  or earth quakes? If so you should put the rafters on with long 3/8ths inch lag bolts..

     A properly toenailed rafter requires only 208 foot pounds of force to remove it.. a lag bolt just run in using your impact wrench requires 2783 pounds to remove..

     You can exceed that if you have access to a palm nailer and have a simpson H6 & H7 strap combined they will give you 3.150 pounds of protection But they require 38 simpson nails to install..

    You can exceed even that 3150 pounds if you predrill for the lag screw instead of simply just drive it in..

      Just for information code requires  (4) 8 P nails.

     The use of 16P nails usually resulted in splits  unless they were predrilled  with a 5/32 drill 

1. 
   blownonfuel | Oct 03, 2008 09:38pm | #6

   Frenchy I was going to nail in my rafters then put collar ties and a strap over the top of the to resist uplift.How do you put the lags in?

1. 
   Framer | Oct 03, 2008 09:49pm | #7

   How do you put the lags in?

   You don't!!!

   Frenchy built one house and it was a Timber frame house.He's on a different planet when it comes to stick framing. You're not Timber framing and it doesn't matter what zone your in. I doubt your in a zone that requires lag bolting 2x rafters. Don't even consider lag bolting your rafters. Nails are all you need. Frenchy's house will blow down along with the houses next to his, so when he comes back with all statistics and 8 zillion mile per/hr reports, don't worry about them.

    Joe Carola

1. 
   blownonfuel | Oct 03, 2008 09:55pm | #8

   So Joe how do I nail my rafters in? How many in the plate and into the joist and in the ridge?

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 03, 2008 10:13pm | #10

   If I recall, you are adding hardware at ridge and at wall. I toenail three nails at the seat cut on the top plate, two on one side and one on the other. Too many toenails makes the connection "nail-poor" splitting the wood into toothpicks that holds nothing.Then I use two or three on each side at the ridge, depending on the rafter size.
   Once you add hardware, that is more than enough.Frenchy is out on the loop-train with his stuff. In his overkill world, you would need a locomotive to haul a bunk of plywood to the jobsite, and a tankerful of water to put out a campfire 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   frenchy | Oct 03, 2008 11:16pm | #14

   Piffin

     Your method doesn't even comply with the standard they tested at the labratory which failed at 208 pounds..

      a single lag bolt will probably take maybe a moment more than your method and increases the seccurity up to  2783 pounds..

    Page 126 of Fine Home Buildings framing roofs.

3. 
   Piffin | Oct 04, 2008 12:01am | #16

   Don't have any idea what you mean about my method.Simpson tests their hardware not me. The toenails hold it until the hardware is put on. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   Framer | Oct 03, 2008 10:19pm | #11

   So Joe how do I nail my rafters in? How many in the plate and into the joist and in the ridge?

   Two toenails into the rafter and into the plate and three nails into the ceiling joists. If your using 2x6's for rafters, just 2 toenails on each side of the rafter into the ridge.

   This is all I need where I'm from.

    Joe Carola

2. 
   JDRHI | Oct 03, 2008 10:04pm | #9

   LOL!

   J. D. Reynolds

   Home Improvements

    

    

    

3. 
   frenchy | Oct 03, 2008 11:13pm | #13

   Framer

    It's interesting  that you feel you  are smarter than the  Forest products labratory who supervised the tests..

    Porfessor Henry Liu supervised the tests and they were performed by Laurence Canfield a civil engineer who works for Simpson comnnectors  who tested these connections to destruction.   By the way the numbers produced by these professors were tested at Simpsons plant in St. Joseph MO. 

      Since Simpson doesn't sell lag bolts there is little reason to doubt these numbers..

    You can read all about it in the July/August Forest Products Journal journal.  Or grab a copy of Fine home building's  book called Framing Roofs   (starts on Page 126)

1. 
   Framer | Oct 03, 2008 11:25pm | #15

   You can read all about it in the July/August Forest Products Journal journal.  Or grab a copy of Fine home building's  book called Framing Roofs   (starts on Page 126)

   Could care less what any of that says. Means absolutely nothing when it comes to framing. If Architects or Engineers find the need to spec them on plans they draw, we will use them.

   When you come back down from Frenchy's planet lagbolt, you can discuss framing with the rest of us here, until then, stick with your one Timber framed house you did because everything you have to say about stick framing doesn't apply here in the real world.

    Joe Carola

2. 
   frenchy | Oct 04, 2008 12:24am | #17

   Joe

    for 17 years I visited  countless framing sites.. I'd say that here in tornado alley less than 5 homes in 100 had any sort of rafter tie at all. I've watch building inspectors pass framing where the city code clearly requires them and they had none..

     If you choose to use Simpson ties that's fine. They make a good product and I pointed out the small differance between them and a lag bolt. 

      However in my mind anybody that exposes themselves to high winds or earth quakes and doesn't use something  is criminal.

     Now if you feel ok to lat that obligation off on others that's for you to deal with should a home you built lack any protection and people are killed or injuried..

3. 
   Framer | Oct 04, 2008 12:31am | #18

   Every house and addition I frame are built structurally sound and according to all Architectural and Engineered plans. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your house in Frenchy lag bolt land is coming down like match sticks along with the houses next to yours.

    Joe Carola

4. 
   frenchy | Oct 04, 2008 12:36am | #19

   Framer

     Don't bet on it!

5. 
   Framer | Oct 04, 2008 01:09am | #23

   Don't bet on it!

   You would loose as fast as your house is flying away.

   Here's your house at starting at the 15 second mark.......see ya........

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWTgKnU4alM&feature=related

    Joe Carola

6. 
   Jim_Allen | Oct 04, 2008 02:03am | #25

   Frenchy, if you park a tank in the living room and run 3/8" by 6 x 4 angle iron up to each rafter and through bolt it with stainless steel grade 10 bolts, then weld and bolt it to the tank, the rafters will hold better than if you lag bolt them. Now..stop suggsesting such flimsy methods. Get on the tank bandwagon now.

7. 
   frenchy | Oct 04, 2008 03:30am | #26

   Blue

     It's a proven method of wood connection and has plenty of documented proof that it is superior to nailing..

     What's the matter? cranky because you boy is behind? 

8. 
   Jim_Allen | Oct 04, 2008 03:37am | #27

   My Tank method beats the heck out of your stupid little lag bolt method.

9. 
   Joe | Oct 04, 2008 04:22am | #28

   BOF,Lags might be a bit overkill ;-). I've pretty much nailed the same as Joe for the last 28 years and everything I've built is still standing.One thing you don't want to do is shred the birdmonth with to many nails as this will just weaken the connection.http://www.josephfusco.org
   http://www.constructionforumsonline.com

10. 
    frenchy | Oct 04, 2008 05:36pm | #34

    Blue

      Tanks are expensive, lag bolts are cheap <grin>  you lose..

11. 
    Piffin | Oct 04, 2008 12:49am | #20

    You could frame one for me any day 

     

    Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

12. 
    Framer | Oct 04, 2008 01:04am | #21

    You could frame one for me any day

    Thanks Piffin. Can I lag bolt the sheathing............;-)

     Joe Carola

13. 
    Piffin | Oct 04, 2008 01:06am | #22

    only if you use glue too 

     

    Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

14. 
    atrident | Oct 04, 2008 05:34am | #33

      Some years ago I added a shed roof patio cover. Used lag bolts thinking they would provide enough shear to hold it up . It worked for many years. One day I noticed the snow had taken it down and I was suprised it had failed in tension (2:12 pitch screwed into the fascia) I will never trust screws in tension like this again.

15. 
    JAlden | Oct 04, 2008 04:22am | #29

    here in tornado alley

    Did you move out of Minnesota? Or just talking like a salesman again?

16. 
    DoRight | Oct 05, 2011 11:17am | #36

    Yeah, and remember Frenchy says he can leave OSB uncovered in the rain for years.  Oh to live in Frenchy fantasyland.  And don't forget to use 4x12 rafters on 8 inch centers.  Anything less and you are looking for trouble.  And if your span is greater than 6 feet then ever 4 x 12 s ......

    LOL

17. 
    DoRight | Oct 05, 2011 11:23am | #37

    Yeah, and remember Frenchy says he can leave OSB uncovered in the rain for years.  Oh to live in Frenchy fantasyland.  And don't forget to use 4x12 rafters on 8 inch centers.  Anything less and you are looking for trouble.  And if your span is greater than 6 feet then ever 4 x 12 s ......

    LOL

2. 
   frenchy | Oct 03, 2008 11:04pm | #12

   blownfuel

    this was covered in Fine Homebuilding's issue on roofing.  Page 126

     They simply ran it in vertically thru the rafter into the top plate.   they used a 3/8ths by 8 inch lag bolt. (I would use an impact wrench and save my arm) 

    You gain strength if you predrill for each one but this is massively over building anyway.  My best estimate would be pre drilling would gain you another 50 pounds or so.  The weakness at this point would be the wood and not the lag bolt.. if you look at the picture of the rafter they managed to remove at 2783 pounds  it's clear it pulled through the rafter. the lag bolt itself is in fine shape..

     Straps start at 497# and go up from there.. the best a Simpson H7 will almost reach what the lag will do  minus only 57 pounds..

     

3. 
   Jim_Allen | Oct 04, 2008 01:59am | #24

   Trust me....you don't want to listen to Frenchy for framing advice.

4. 
   Timuhler | Oct 04, 2008 04:57am | #30

   From the 2006 IRC

   TABLE 2304.9.1
   FASTENING SCHEDULE

   19. Rafter to plate

   (see Section 2308.10.1, Table 2308.10.1)

   3 - 8d common (2 1/2” ≥ 0.131²)

   3 – 3” ≥0.131” nails

   3 - 3²”≥14 gage staples

   toenail

   28. Roof rafter to 2-by ridge beam
   2 - 16d common (3 1/2" x 0.162")
   3 - 3"x 0.131" nails
   3 - 3" 14 gage staples
   toenail
   2-16d common (31/2"x 0.162)
   3 - 3"x 0.131" nails
   3 - 3" 14 gage staples
   face nail

   Check with your local municipality to see if they made or are making any ammendments.

1. 
   dovetail97128 | Oct 04, 2008 05:11am | #31

   I was reading this thread and wondering what happened to code? Thank You.
   They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

1. 
   xxPaulCPxx | Sep 26, 2011 03:25pm | #35

   Here is an update, relating to everything that was talked about here:

   http://www.fastenmaster.com/rafter-tail-to-double-top-plate-technical-bulletin.html

   Instead of the Lag screw Frenchy was refering to, a 6" TimberLok screw is applied from the bottom up, or from the top down with a 2x4 truss rafter.  Presumably an 8" long screw would be used for a top daown 2x6 rafter connection.

5. 
   DoRight | Oct 05, 2011 11:27am | #38

   Nail gun?

   I am looking to buy a framing nailer myself.  What did you buy?  Thanks