I have been seriously thinking (I tried it a couple of times with good success) about gang cutting most if not all of my rafters.
Does anyone here have experience with this? I know it’s mostly a west coast thing, but I have talked to a number of framers who use this method of cutting their roofs with very good success.
I’m attaching a couple of pics of me gang cutting about a month ago. I’m just looking for insights here.
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Replies
tim.. i'm not a production framer like you.. we're real slow..
but it always seemed to me that cutting a rack took a lot of set-up time.. yes ?
and most of the old time rack cutters used large daddoes for the birds-mouths.. what about you ?
do you have Big Foot and swing -tables ? and some of those modified arbor with the super daddoes ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
To be honest with you, we aren't really production framers, although we use a lot of their techniques. Actually we are in the middle of a "mentality" change on our crew. We've had so much work over the last 2 years that we were racing to keep up. We still have a lot of work, but we are going to slow down just a little for everyone's sanity.
The biggest areas that we've saved time were organizing the crew and cutting the roof on the ground. Last year Ken Drake put the bug in my ear to start precutting the rafters on the ground instead of waiting for the ridges to be set up etc. For the last year I've been calculating and cutting rafters on the ground without getting up on the walls. I know a lot of guys here do this, but it was a first for me or our crew.
There are a few guys that have been encouraging me to rack the rafters. I'll attach a pic that was recently sent to me by John Harmon. The guys who rack say that they can cut the roof much more quickly. Will Holladay recommends it in his book as well.
I have a 10" Big Foot w/swing, 14" Big Boy built in swing (in the pic I'm using the Big Boy), the Headcutter (clamps to a Chainsaw), and am going to buy and modify an 8 1/4" Skil for a 9" blade. Once I get the bugs worked out, I might have a dado made up, but we'll see.
The advantage to me is that you can cut 150 commons with 4 cuts, instead of 150 commons x 4 cuts per rafter.
First pic is John Harmon cutting commons and then his commons after he cut them. The rest are of me using various tools.
Edited 12/22/2003 12:09:25 AM ET by TIMUHLER
Danger Will Robinson, DANGER!!!!
Nice looking stuff though!!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
> The advantage to me is that you can cut 150 commons with 4 cuts, instead of 150 commons x 4 cuts per rafter.
And your 150 commons will be all exactly the same, no mistakes. (Unless of course they're all mistakes....)
-- J.S.
John,
Have we met? Because you've pegged me right on the mark :-)
And your 150 commons will be all exactly the same, no mistakes. (Unless of course they're all mistakes....)
Gang Cutting: A really fast way to make premium lengths of 2x into planks and blockingMr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Gang cutting rafters can be a good thing. I have been a SoCal framer for the last 25 years and while we use mostly trusses now I have cut plenty of rafters on a rack. The dado setup never really worked for me, I like the cleaner cut of a swing table. For the plumb cut, I usually started it with a 16'' beam saw and finished with a regular saw. And while we racked up all the rafters, we always did a small pile to set the ridge and make sure the measurements were working and then did the remainder after that. Once you find your rhythm, I'm betting you won't go back.
FramerBoy,
Do you have any tips for me? I think that once I get the rest of the crew on board, this'll become our way of doing things.
Did you cut hip/valley jacks this way also? The next house we have is nearly all hip jacks and only a few commons. I'm a little timid about trying racks when nearly everything is jacks (hey that rhymes)
I've used racks twice now. This last time it worked really well. I was very pleased. I think I cut about 15 commons and they worked out like a dream.
We stick frame every house we frame and if I could cut down on some of the repetition, we'd really be doing well. I think for as cut up as our roofs are, we'd be at least as fast as trusses, without the material cost.
Just read your article on FC siding in JLC on the plane today, very well done.
I'm curious here. Why stick frame a roof when trusses are usually cheaper? Is stick framing still cheaper in your region? Occasionally we get a roof where stick framing is required, but it will be for a specific reason - usually because the framing will be left visible, or for a connection from one truss system to another. Other than that, it is just boring ol' trusses. I also like to make my rafter calcs and first cuts on the ground.
To the poster asking about hip jack cuts, I imagine you can make tail cut and bird's mouth on the rack, but cheek cuts would be at different position on each jack.
Wally
sly_karma,
I know that a lot of people may argue with me here, but for our company, stick framing is a the least, the same cost as trusses. Nearly always cheaper. The companys around here charge so much for their trusses.
We've been stick framing for years. In the last year some guys (Joe Fusco, Joe Carola, Ken Drake, John Harmon, Boyd Miller and some I'm forgetting) have been really patient with me and have taught me how to calculate all the rafters on the ground.
I'll attach some pics of houses we've done this year that were just too cut up to truss. We did some that were mostly gable, but you can set up a guy cutting commons while a couple roll ceiling joists and then everyone jumps on the rafters. Our avg time to frame a roof for a 2500sq house this year (and sheathe) was 1 week. Sometimes a hair over, sometimes a hair under.
In this first pic (the blue house. I'm not a fan of the color, but the homeowners picked it), the pitches were 10-12 and 12-12 and took us 7 days to frame and sheathe. That was 2 of us. Our third guy cut the face off of his thumb on the second day of the roof. I had to recut one hip. There would have been a lot of overframing.
In the other pics the pitch was 10-12. This is my parents house now. It is the nicest house I've ever worked on. It had 2 partial octagon bays in the back and I got to frame a cove ceiling in it and a few elliptical doorways.
Once you come up with a good system, then the roof goes pretty quick.
"I know that a lot of people may argue with me here, but for our company, stick framing is at the least, the same cost as trusses. Nearly always cheaper. "
Well, I'm not one to argue............................(-:
While I don't really agree with you, I understand your perspective. It seems to me the guys who have always stick framed think stick framing is cheaper, and the reverse is true for those who have always used trusses. In the 18 years I've been doing this, I don't think I've ever known someone who switched from one kind of framing to the other.
But I would point out that cost isn't always the issue. Some of the house plans we get are "canned" plans someone has ordered from a plan book. Most of them show stick framed roofs. And the first thing people want to know when I get the prints is if we can eliminate some of the posts and beams that are required in the basement. The 2nd thing they want to know is if they really have to have that post in the middle of their garage.
With trusses, we can virtually ALWAYS eiminate posts and beams. And I can only remember one house where I couldn't change the design to eliminate the post in the garage.
In many cases, I can actually work girder trusses into the structure that help support the 2nd floor.
I we wanted to debate the cost issue of trusses vs. stick framing, I suppose we should start a separate thread. That could be interesting.I don't think anything is unrealistic if you believe you can do it. I think if you are determined enough and willing to pay the price, you can get it done. [Mike Ditka]
Do the Truss companies have seminars because I would love to go to one. I'm from New Jersey and I know Pennsylvania makes alot of the Trusses. All the houses and additions that I frame are stick built. I'm also curious as to see what would be cheaper, stick built or Trusses. I'm sure the complexity of the roof framing comes into play when there's cathedral ceilings with different pitches and equal overhangs, Octagon roofs, Cone shaped Towers.
Have you ever designed or seen a Cone Shaped Tower Roof Truss before?
With trusses, we can virtually ALWAYS eiminate posts and beams. And I can only remember one house where I couldn't change the design to eliminate the post in the garage.
In many cases, I can actually work girder trusses into the structure that help support the 2nd floor.
Those are very good points you made because alot of house I frame run into this problem with posts in the middle of garages or to eliminate that we have to install large wood beams or sometimes steel. If it's inside the house we have to carry the load down to the girder in the basement with a footing and lally column.
I'm thinking where the part of the house has so many cut up roof lines with what I mentioned above maybe those can be stick framed and the garage areas can have trusses.
I we wanted to debate the cost issue of trusses vs. stick framing, I suppose we should start a separate thread. That could be interesting.
That would be a good thread.
Merry Christmas.
Joe Carola
"Do the Truss companies have seminars..."
I've never known of one that did.
"I'm also curious as to see what would be cheaper, stick built or Trusses."
I don't think there's an easy answer to that one. A lot depends on what your crew(s) are used to. The best suggestion I could come up with is pick out a job and try to price it both ways. (Both material AND labor) If you don't put pencil to it, you're just guessing.
"I'm sure the complexity of the roof framing comes into play..."
I agree. So stick framing may look better in some cases, and trusses in another.
"Have you ever designed or seen a Cone Shaped Tower Roof Truss before? "
Yup. I've even done half round and concave trusses.
"I'm thinking where the part of the house has so many cut up roof lines with what I mentioned above maybe those can be stick framed and the garage areas can have trusses."
Not a bad idea. Just make sure that you give some consideration to the heel heights you need to have on the trusses to match the stick framing.
If someone wants to start a thread on stick framing vs. trusses, I'll participate. It was done at least once before, and it got pretty heated. Lots of strong opinions on both sides.Liberty is rendered even more precious by the recollection of servitude. [Cicero]
Boss,
I don't think I ever told you this, but on our jobsite we all have Nextel phones with Direct Connect. We all have nicknames for each other and my nickname for the boss (who is actually my dad) was Boss Hog. Any of the trades that would use my phone would ask who BossHog was and then get a kick out of it when they found out who it was.
I try not to sound argumentative when I make comments about trusses v. stickframing, because what works for our crew doesn't work for others. For myself, I've only trussed about 10 roofs. I've either done the stickframing myself or helped others on over 100 houses. Obviously, stick framing works better for me. If I had the experience with trusses, then it would be faster.
We don't build easy houses. I don't know if you looked at the pics on my previous post, but those were very cut up. We could have trussed, but it would have taken the same amount of time either way. We get good prices from our lumberyard as we are their biggest customer. We build between 8-15 homes so we aren't huge, but since we live in the NW and have so much lumber available, it makes sense to stick frame.
With our climate being so wet, we get a ton of truss uplift. I have a number of friends who are drywallers, but all they do is truss uplift repair. That isn't a knock against trusses, but it's just too wet here.
Incidentally, we framed a house this last summer that we had done twice before. We trussed it this time because we had so much work and figured it would save some time. Guess what? The timing came out about the same, but it was more expensive because the truss company we were using charge an arm and a leg. They have a lot of demand and there isn't much supply, so they can do that. Good for them. Make some money while the market is hot. For us, it wasn't a huge deal, but .....
I really want to start using racks to cut the roof. Basically every unnecessary step we eliminate, increases profit margin and since it's starting to get more competitive here, we need the extra room to compete.
"...my nickname for the boss (who is actually my dad) was Boss Hog."
Since I've been on the internet I've found it's a pretty popular nickname. I actually look more like Uncle Jessie than J.D. Hogg. (-:
"I try not to sound argumentative when I make comments about trusses v. stickframing, because what works for our crew doesn't work for others."
I don't think you've been argumentative, and I've also tried to not be. Like you, I realize no one thing works for everybody. When I have a strong opinion about something I tend to stick to that, though. Like the bearing issues I went over in my previous post. Just trying to make the point that price isn't the only issue to consider when thinking abut trusses vs. stick framing.
"We don't build easy houses. I don't know if you looked at the pics on my previous post, but those were very cut up."
Didn't look at all out of the ordinary to me. That's the kind of stuff I do everyday. Sometimes with nothing more than a crude floor plan and a picture out of a magazine.
"With our climate being so wet, we get a ton of truss uplift."
I've never heard that about the northwest. I know it's wet there, but don't know why that would make truss uplift worse. Have you read the thread I did on Truss uplift?
"we framed a house this last summer that we had done twice before. We trussed it this time because we had so much work and figured it would save some time."
There could be several reasons for that. Like you mentioned, you typically do stick framing. Setting the trusses doesn't come naturally for you.
And it could be that the truss company didn't do a good job on the layout and/or truss designs. The more cut up the house, the more ways there are to frame it. If you have a truss designer who's willing to put some effort into it, they can figure out how to save time, lumber, and money. But that takes experience - Something most truss designers don't have.
"...the truss company we were using charge an arm and a leg."
Again, there could be several reasons for that. They could have overpriced it because someone made a mistake. I've done that a time or 2.
Another thought is that the more cut up the house, the more truss prices will vary from one manufacturer to the next. I've bid jobs where we were either half or double our competition. Truss plant managers have WIDELY varying opinions on how to price stuff.
I enjoy talking about trusses and stick framing. Believe it or not, I haven't used trusses on everything I've helped build. But please don't repeat that to anyone else here...(-:Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
Boss,
I didn't catch your thread on truss uplift. I'll read it.
You know we use kiln dried lumber for everything here. I can order 28' 2x12 kilndried and it's good quality. The trusses come out at a lower moisture content than a lot of our lumber, especially beams. I can order 8x material, but even though it's kiln dried, it just will dry out differently than trusses.
Around here, we use the term "truss uplift" a little too loosely probably. When we use beams and in the winter they get wet, and then dry out, you get 2 floor systems of shrinkage and none with the trusses. So then we get some tearing in the corners of the taping etc.
I appreciate your post. My dad taught me something that as I'm getting older (I know, I'm 26...., but now I'm old enough to understand), he said that there is nothing wrong with another company trying to make some money. Whether it's a car dealership or a truss company or me, we all try to make money. The trick is to find a medium where we are all pretty happy. Some of our best customers have told us that they know we need to make money on them. They ask then that we give them a product that justifies the price. That is to me fair.
Thanks again for the post.
"I can order 28' 2x12 kilndried and it's good quality. "
That would be neat. I don't think I've ever in my life seen a single board over 20' long.
"When we use beams and in the winter they get wet, and then dry out, you get 2 floor systems of shrinkage and none with the trusses."
I can see where that would cause problems. It seems to me that the truss industry has done just enough education about truss uplift that now EVERY drywall crack is blamed on it. I know of one truss salesman who was called out to look at vertical cracks in inside corners to see if it was caused by trusses. (Bad taping job)
I enjoyed your posts too. I always enjoy a civil exchange of ideas. And I hope one of these days you come to realize that I'm right, and trusses are the answer to all your problems....................(-:I feel so much better since I've given up hope.
Boss,
But can they make up for my childhood? What are the side effects? Weight gain? I hope not ;-)
Tim,
Those are some nice roof shots you posted, but as Boss mentioned, nothing out of the ordinary. The days of people living in little boxes ended 25-30 years ago. BIG DISCLAIMER: your elliptical doors and cove ceiling are very cool and look well executed. Good move to chase after details like that. No other way to get the experience.
Personally I like doing all the math and drawings involved with stick roofs, but rarely do I get to do one. Our estimators almost always go truss. Now I don't know if each one is price-compared individually as to trusses vs stick framed, or if there is a company mentality that eschews stick in favour of truss. It is generally accepted around the area that trusses are cheaper. I do know that anyone who is capable of calculating and cutting their own roof members is considered a cut above the other carpenters (pun intended). Typically we only get to do hand framing is if there is a specific reason: appearance, raked ceiling, or specific details (such as octagon tower - yes I got to do one last year).
I guess part of the deal of course is that mostly my work is commercial projects rather than residential. We are just finishing a nice winery and wine shop project that had a combination of both systems. The winery (10,000 sq ft) was flat roof commercial trusses with 10:12 pitch trusses piggybacked on top. All visible from below (rigid insulation over roof sheathing). Tons o' fun flying, setting and bracing triangle trusses over unsheathed flat trusses @24' AFF. But a crew of 5 did the whole thing incl. sheathing in 3 weeks in the heat of mid summer. The wine shop/tasting room (2500 sq ft) is exposed fir beams with 12" TJI rafters. Only the second TJ roof I've done. Same calcs for common length, valley length, diff in jacks, etc, but simpler cutting, as you only make plumb cuts - hangers specified for jack-to-valley fastenings. Roof framing - including 2x4 purlins under sheathing - took same crew 2 1/2 weeks.
So where I'm going with this rambling post (get used to it) is that I'm comfortable with the math of stick framing, but can see how trusses are usually faster. Every situation will be different. Truss fabricators are pretty competitive where I am, that must come into it too.
Thanks for the discussion,
Wally
sly_karma,
It sounds to me like you get to do some cool work and that you do it well. Do you have any shots of the winery? I'd love to see them.
Those 2 houses aren't that out of the ordinary, but we vault nearly all our ceilings and use the attic space. The first house (green one) has bedrooms tucked under the roof, the garage would have had to be bonus room style trusses. Our design options would have been limited by trusses. And to be perfectly honest with you, there is a lot that is undecided as far as interior design when we frame a house. We change ceilings, and add things here or there. Often times we will change the pitch on a certain part of the house to maybe add some drama, or whatever. We like the flexibility sticking the roof gives us.
Personally, I just love to put together the house and the roof. I get so much satisfaction from framing. Often we do the foundations, framing, some of the site work, flatwork, siding, etc and the idea that I built something (like the cove) that someone and their family will enjoy and make memories in, gives me a huge level of satisfaction. I love this kind of work.
You sound like you have a great deal of experience. I hope you continue posting so guys like me get a number of different perspectives.
Do you like using I-joist as rafters? I know you have to use a lot of hardware and the ridges, hips,valleys have to be structural. I've never done it, but as our spans get larger, we'll have to use them at some point in certain cases.
I'm attaching some pics of the work I got to do this week. I framed a barrel ceiling in the entry of the house we are on. It was about 7' x 8'. I did one in the office that is 16' x9' and then framed an arched porch. It was a ton of fun. We are siding this house we framed and it feels good to do some trim even if it's exterior and get's paint. That is about all I can handle as a framer :-)
Ok, now in these pics, the odd looking guy is my brother (and boss sometimes if you can believe that:-)) and in the other pics is Jasen. He is the photogenic one so he is in all the pics :-)
Sorry for the size. After I posted this message, I realized how big they were. Does anyone have a certain size they recommend resizing pics too?
Edited 12/24/2003 10:52:02 PM ET by TIMUHLER
so , this is jason...or you ?
View Image
nice series... and that size is plenty small enough...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My brother. It is neither Jasen nor me and there is very little family resemblance ;-)
Tim,
Roof framing with TJs isn't that different from floor work. Same pros (length of span, uniformity, high strength/weight ratio, low relative cost) and cons (appearance, awkward to cut). With TJ rafters, no bird's mouth is cut; they are nailed into an appropriately-sloped cant strip on the wall plate, so a little quicker there. At the ridge they bear on a beam, in this case exposed D. fir 5.25 x 12. Once again cant strip is used, and galvanised Simpson straps are used to tie the rafters on the opposing sides of the ridge together. Blocking (same as floor system blocking) is used to stiffen the ridge and wall plate areas. At the ridge, it is not necessary to block both sides, usually blocking alternates from one side of ridge to the the other. (This makes it easier for insulation later - blocking both sides makes a cavity only accessible from above).
Jacks run flush into valleys and hips, which are therefore concealed beneath drywall. TJ supplies hangers for this. The ones we were supplied were a one-size-fits-any-pitch setup that were awkward to use. No cheek cuts are used, the plumb cut goes directly into the hanger pocket. I was shortening my jacks 3/4" because of the bulk of the hanger. It was fastened into the parallam valley beam with 3" nails, 14 per hanger. So we had an apprentice with a palm nailer going most of a day to nail these off as the jacks were set. There was no lookout framing to do at gable ends as the architect has a hipped canopy roof out off the gable end to cover a patio area below.
On the whole no extra equipment is needed. TJs can be most easily cut with an 8-1/4 circular saw like a nice old Sawcat that I keep for just such occasions. Getting one of those CutRite frames makes a big difference, as does making an angled jig for cutting plumb cuts. But to be honest, I wouldn't have used this system for areas where a pitched ceiling was not necessary. Even then, scissor trusses would have been a good move. And there are 4 dormers, all with raked overhangs framed with TJs. These were a head scratcher to frame.
Enjoy the Christmas season,
Wally
CAG,
Thanks for the compliment. It was a lot of fun to write. Do you think it is a helpful article for those getting into fiber cement? I hope so, but it's hard for me to be objective. I appreciate your comments.
I think it would be helpful to someone looking at a FC job, either that has done it or doing their first.
I liked that you went into the available tools and also the way to carry it, when I read the part about carry it verticle, just said to myself wish I would have thought of that the first time I used it, first time, me and another guy each grabbed one end of about half a dozen pieces..oops, snapped before we made it off the pile
one thing I found, using the shears, is to put a trash barrel under the cut area, really cuts down on clean up.
CAG,
Thanks for the feedback. When we first started using fiber cement, I was just a laborer working after school and learning. So I had to pack most of that siding around the side and to the back of the house. I would carry it on edge and it still was uncomfortable. I just drag it now.
If we can't get our forklift around the back of the house, we lift it up and slide it into the back of a pick up and drive it around if we can. Anything to avoid packing that stuff :-)
I wish I would have thought about the garbage can under the workstation ;-) Now why didn't I think of that? Dang it!
Tim,
The way we used to do hip and valley jacks was to get lengths that would cover what it took to cut both the longest jack and the shortest jack from one board and rack them up. We would cut the bird's mouth on each end of these rafters and measure for the shortest jack and cut that one. With the remaining piece we would cut the longest jack. These jack cuts are made with a Skil saw one by one. At the end of stack you have enough for both sides of one hip or valley. That is what worked for me but there are a lot of ways to go about it, and you will just have to experiment.
I will admit however that I prefer trusses at this stage of my career because with a sharp fabricator and good software there truly are few roofs that cannot be done with trusses. Still conventional roof cutting and stacking is a good thing to know when the computer is not your friend. Good luck.