Hello to all,
I’m retired and a DIYer. The problem is our 1960 ranch house has rafter spread.
The front wall tilts out about 1″ at the ceiling. The roof has 4/12 pitch. Tilt
appears to be most in the center of the wall and less to the sides. The
problem lies in the ceiling joist/rafter connection at the center rafters. It appears
to be poor construction way back when and gradually moved over time. We live in
snowy NY. I’m worried about next winter and want to do something to fix or stabilize
it. Question is, can the wall be pulled back in and reattached? I’m thinking cables and
turnbuckles attached to top plates. Looking for your ideas or opinions on this.
Thanks
Replies
Pictures would help immensely.
Typically, for a conventional system to spread, the ridge usually sags. You haven't mentioned the ridge sagging and you seem to be indicating that the rafter connection to the ridge is flawed. Or, I might be misunderstanding you.
To answer your question directly: yes, you can push and pull and coax that wall back into place. Then, you will have to add some structural systems to keep it where it belongs. Those normally include a "wall tie" system of ceiling joist or other lapped framing members that are anchored to the opposite walls directly or indirectly in some fashion. Cables could even be used. It all depends on your decor.
You probably will have to add some force to push up the sagging roof frame members, while pushing and pulling the walls back into place. Sometimes this all returns to it's natural state quite easily. Sometimes its a challenge even for experienced framers.
Do you have a forklift (Skytrak) available? They can give you some very important leverage LOL!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Not to scare you too much but my sis had a house like that (only worse) - like maybe 4" of bow in the walls. They got a engineer in there to evaluate it and give recommendations... the place ended up being condemned and demoed (demolished).... :-) no joke.... You may not want to go that route... :-)
A few quick Qs: What is the approximate size of the house: ie: 32x40 or what... and are their ceiling joists running parallel to the rafters and are they tied well to the rafters at the walls and presumable spliced together well in the center of the house over a load bearing wall? Sounds like you are going to have to "tear into it". Beats the demo alternative though.... :-)
BTW - welcome to BT!! - it can be a bumpy ride and you need a thick skin... :-) But the rewards are worth every bit of what you pay... :-)
Also BTW - no need to hit "enter" (carriage return) at the end of each line. The software does that automatically.... Paragraphs are good but too much white space is well... just wasteful :-) Unless your initials are Jeff Buck - we tolerate him... :-) I think he pauses a lot when he talks... :-)
The house is 24 x 40 and the ceiling joists are parallel to rafters and overlap at the bearing wall by about 4 ". The bad connection is at the wall between rafter and joist. I did get the insurance company involved and they sent an engineer to look at it. He said he's seen a lot worse and wasn't overly worried about it. He also said the overlapped joists should be reinforced, they could be a problem too. I don't have any good ideas on that. Thanks for the comments so far.
Jumbo,
Tell us where you are (as in fill out yor profile). There are a lot of us here in NY.
You might be down the street from me or someone else. I might even offer to swing by and have a look!
And as someone else stated pics would help a whole lot.
Eric[email protected]
My guess is that the lack of some other structure is causing a failure at this joint between the rafter and ceiling beam at the top of the plate.
On a ranch as you describe you might typically find a center wall where the ceiling joists lap, and also where a builder would post up to the ridge.
Eric[email protected]
I'm not a fixer - I build new homes - but it sounds like you need to pull things back into shape and then just fasten them better. Like maybe 6 or 8 gun nails per connection. Some guys knock nail guns because the nails are often smaller but my premise is that with a gun there always ends up being about 2x the number of nails as with hand nailing. Obviously a 1960s house was all hand nailed - I guess... That's a tangent though. We have a number of very proficient remodelers here that can answer your Qs better than I. I'm sure they will be along shortly. My guess though would be that the problem is the fastening at the center - not at the walls. 4" overlap is kinda minimal. Should work with proper fastening though Sounds like you need to reinforce both though. Sounds like you have a lot of snow load with that 4:12 roof.... One more Q to make sure we all under stand this... The ceiling joists sit right on top of the wall... Right? The ceiling is flat... Right? No cathedral ceiling, etc...
Live in Albany, NY. Ceiling is flat and ceiling joists sit right on wall. No cathedral ceiling. Thanks.
It sounds like your ceiling joists are not fastened to the outside walls, just to the rafters.
I live in Utica.
I'm trying to think who lives closest to you.
If it's just a bad rafter/joist connection, you should be able to use a come-along (or two or three) to pull it back together and then strengthen the connections.
For long term you're generally better off with wood-wood connections vs using cables. With cables you have some problem with differential expansion, which could lead to cracks.
I would think long and hard about trying to pull the walls back in....
As others have said, it IS possible, and I don't want to discourage you from making it right, but there's a massive amount of leverage working against you.What's the plaster/drywall situation? if there's no gap at the wall, could it have just been framed with the walls bowed out to begin with? And if you jack the ridge/ pull the walls in, wheres that extra 1" of rock gonna go? Nailing the rafters better to the wall or re-nailing the ceiling joist/ rafter/ wall connection is going to be a bi-otch without pulling the bottom 2' of sheathing and shingles off, unless you know a rrreeeaalllyy short guy with a tiny nail gun :)
If the house was built in the 60's, then it has certainly seen a whole lot of snow before now. I'd be inclined to stud up over a bearing wall under the ridge, nice and tight, and it would prevent the push/ sag from getting worse. If the center wall isn't directly under the ridge, you could even run them on a slight angle if need be. Without taking the ceiling down though, I don't see the walls getting straight. Good luck.
Bing
That would probably be my take on this - tighten up the connections with fasteners and support what is there without fighting too much to pull it all back to plumb. It is possible it never was fully plumb to begin with even. I have used cables a couple times on much larger homes than this succesfully, but it was a full remo all open framing to get to things. I would worry about creating SR problems pulling on a finished wall.
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The bad connection is almost certainly the rafter-ceiling joist connection. I agree with Bing that this will be tough to access. If you are gutting the interior ceiling or replacing the roof, you could reinforce the connection easily.
I know from experience that it is not always easy to pull things back together. Even if intervening work, such as patching cracks or replacing drywall, has not occurred, debris has a way of falling into spaces and will prevent movement back to the original position. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to remedy the problem, just that you probably won't be able to get it perfect unless you are willing to do a lot of preliminary demolition.
I like to idea of posting to the ridge from the supporting wall. If nothing else it will prevent the problem from worsening.
"I'm thinking cables and turnbuckles attached to top plates."
The rafters are what has the force in them - Not the top plates. If yuo do try to pull things back together you need to pull no the bottom of the rafters.
This is oen reason I get worked up when people tell me that stick framing is stronger than trusses. It's all about the connections, and raftrs are rarely connected to ceiling joists correctly. (In my experience)
People who say stick framing is stronger than trusses have a different agenda. Framers or lumber salesmen. Like I tell my class, those engineers are experts with their calculators!
Have a good day
Cliffy
When I've done this, I could not get to the ends of rafters. But I was jacking up the ridge at the same time I was using the comalongs.On one job I had some angles welded and cut with holes about 1-1/2" in one long flange. That way we could slip them over the top plates and hang the chain or cable hook into them easily for a temporary pull.One another job, the cables were intended to remain after wards. we had large eyebolts drilled through the top plates ( actually they were 4x6 timbers) to connect the cables to. I think we did the actual pulling with comalongs then cinched it up permanently with turnbuckles.
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You are right BTW about it being the fastening that fails. I have lost count of how many times I've had to educate somebody that one toenail in the plate and one sinker into the rafter from the ceiling joist just ain't gonna cut it.
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"You are right BTW about it being the fastening that fails."
What, you expected otherwise ???
(-:
My reason for suggesting connecting to the rafters was just exactly BECAUSE of the apparently poor connections. If the wall to rafter connection is the problem, pulling on the walls will only stress that connection more.
It could conceivably cause the nails to pull all the way out, and end up making the situation worse.
Back off! You're standing on my aura
Yeah, that's why we jack the ridge at the same time.'course, you gotta make sure of those connections too. remember a couple threads here where the HO posted pics of rafters barely tacked in and a one inch gap showing at the ridge/rafter joint?
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I took a camera up into crawl space and have some pics. The joist overlap is just 3-1/4" and are they supposed to be toenailed to bearing wall? Two nails connect them. One rafter looks really bad with splits. One ceiling joist was never nailed to rafter. A gap between a couple joists. Last 2 pics show the wall tilt. Drywall is still attached to ceiling, but, not to plates so it has a bow in it from top down. Now I don't mind tearing out drywall to remedy the problem, rooms need work anyway. Thanks for all the comments.
You took several pictures of the ridge, but the ridge is largely irrelevant, since the connections there are in compression and not going anywhere, save for a hurricane. A few split ends is purely cosmetic..The connections in shear -- the center joist connections and the rafter-joist connections -- are the problem (as you have surmised).From your picture of the open wall I'd be tempted to try to pull things together. How you do it depends on your cleverness and how much you want to tear things up. Be wary of pulling just on the walls, since the rafters might decide to take leave of the top plate and leave you with a mess.The idea of a jack wall in the attic is a good one. You might even jack up the ridge a little instead of or in addition to drawing in the walls. (At the very least take a sight along the ridge from the outside and consider what it would take to remove any major swayback.)
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Maybe it's time to just add on and up!
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=104062.1[email protected]
My wife would love to add a second floor. I kinda would like to. What would be a ballpark estimate just to get it buttoned up, I could do interior. I like what you did to the home in ME. Another option would be to tear the whole roof/structure off and replace it with a steeper pitch.
Edited 4/30/2008 6:26 pm ET by jumbo60
The link I sent you was originated by the poster; dieselpig.
Why not contact him and see what he says?
I've done what you are considering. It's a lot of work.
Good luck.
Eric[email protected]
Thanks.Those joists look like only 2x4 and the rafters 2x6.The joists at sidelap are barely tacked together which would definitely allow that joint to slide. But with such a small amt of lap, there is not enough meat to handle say six nails stitching them together and a couple into the top plate.At the ridge, I see two problems. They did not toe nail the rafters to the ridge. Probably only one or two end nails from the opposite side of the ridge. Rafters trying to slide down are sliding right off those nails with nothing to resist. They almost seem ( can't tell for sure) like they have settled away from the sheathing a bit.At the lower end of a rafter, there should be three toenails rafter to top plate and then one in the joist to plate and four into the rafter. Since you have started to open things up, go ahead and try to get comealongs outside plate to outside plate in 2-3 positions, and a couple jacks under the ridge.
Once everything is ion place and snug, ready to start pulling, toenail the rafters to the ridge, or use simpson A-35,s to make that connection good. Then try to gradually alternate between jacks and cables, keeping tension forces working more or less equally everywhere. Keep your face and hands away from any cables. If they come loose or break, it is easy to loose a finger or an eyeball.Keep checking progress with your level readings on the walls. If it seems like you have come up tight and no more progress, take a break and think it all over.Sometimes when you let the building settle into the forces you just applied, it will move overnight and the next morning, you can get another half inch when the day before nothing wanted to move anymore. So be patient with yourself.After you have moved it and brought things to where you are happy with them, then use some structural screws ( not sheetrock screws which are too brittle for shear forces or for any wood to wood connections) and screw all those joints together snug. Using screws on a driver is easier in tight spaces like that and will not send so much impact through the surrounding materials to crack the sheetrock finish, and they are less likely to split the grain out in that old hard dry lumber. You could also add some A-35s to the joist to plate connections instead of toenailing there.What you are trying to end up with is a secure triangle formed by the ceiling joists on bottom, and the two rafters on the upper sides. Will all the joints tied together well, they resist the outward thrust of the snowload.Good luck
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