I am trying to turn an attic into living space. I would like to raise the rafter ties from their current 80in height prior to rocking the space (peak ht approx 9ft 3in from floor). These ties are 7 foot long 2 x 4s mounted on each roof rafter which are set 2 foot on center.
Overall the roof spans 27 feet with knee walls set in on 4 feet on each side with a resulting 19 feet between knee walls.
I once worked on a project where an engineer spec’d out double 2×8 rafter ties which were raised approx. 16 inches and every other one was removed leaving a series of box beams. This was a good looking option. How high can I go with these rafter ties? What size should I make the would? Has anyone use threaded rod instead of wood?
Thanks for the help.
Robotach
Replies
On a properly framed roof, the rafter ties aren't doing anything, once the roof sheathing is on and the floor joists are in.
"On a properly framed roof, the rafter ties aren't doing anything, once the roof sheathing is on..."
They keep the roof from opening up in high winds.If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is it homeless or naked?
""On a properly framed roof, the rafter ties aren't doing anything, once the roof sheathing is on..."
They keep the roof from opening up in high winds."
Boss,
Just a question...... Besides what you state, and despite a prior poster, if they only did that, how come attic trusses have what amount to collar ties? IMO, almost everything added triangle-wise, adds to strength.
Jon
Trusses contain more triangles because they're made from 2x4s (or occasionally 2x6s). Without the intermediate support of the inner triangles the rafters would sag inward from the weight of the roof, even if the bottom cord remains fixed.
"Trusses contain more triangles because they're made from 2x4s (or occasionally 2x6s)."
Dan,
Attic trusses are made from anything from 2x4 to 2x12 's. The loft are in my garage (26' span) is a combo of 2 x4's, (webbing & collar ties) 2x8's (roof rafters) and 2x10's (floor/ceiling joists).
The BOSS knows more about this here than anyone else, so please defer all questions to him about this topic. He's set me straight more than once.
Jon
Yeah, but the reason they're not all 2x4s is because they have provisions for a loft. That makes it impossible to do the usual multiple criss-cross of a standard roof truss.
In a truss, the crossmembers forming the web make an engineered structure, a whole that's more than the sum of its parts, much like a bridge.
In a sheathed roof where the rafters and floor joists are properly sized and attached to each other and the top plate, the collar ties may be removed without affecting the strength or integrity of the roof. They do not tie together lateral forces, the joists do. They were there to help with construction. An extra set of hands.
The big issue here is whether the floor/ceiling joists were sized to take the load of an occupied attic space.
"...how come attic trusses have what amount to collar ties?"
In an attic truss, there are 2 things happening which are a lot different than stick framing.
First - The "wall" pieces are in tension. They more or less "hang" from the top chords. That's how you get a 2X10 bottom chord to span way farther than it normally would. (Like a 24' wide attic truss over a garage, for instance)
Second, the "collar tie" is actually in compression when the attic truss is loaded. The top chords are trying to bow inwards from the weight of the "walls" hanging on them. The "collar tie" resists that force.
So the "collar tie" is absolutely necessary in attic trusses. (Although there may be exceptions in unusual circumstances)
Is that more than you wanted to know ???Software suppliers are trying to make their software packages more "user-friendly"... Their best approach, so far, has been to take all the old brochures, and stamp the words, "user-friendly" on the cover. [Bill Gates]
"Is that more than you wanted to know ???"
Actually, no Boss,
Whatever I can learn here from one of the pro's, it is always appreciated.
Thanks,
Jon
BTW, maybe someday I'll post a pic of how my house is framed. No ridge board, balloon framed/platform framed hybrid cape. 1st floor joists encased in concrete construction.
OK, laugh, but unlike the neighbors houses, mine's held up quite well to 120MPH downdrafts, unlike the custom, homebuilder across the street, who I'm sure built to "code" only to have part of his roof blow off.
"On a properly framed roof, the rafter ties aren't doing anything, once the roof sheathing is on and the floor joists are in"
Not sure I agree with that at all...
First, the ceiling joists were installed before the carpenters ever put a rafter in place. Why did they bother with the ties? Reread what Boss said.
Second, my own house has valleys, and gables facing in four directions. The ceiling joists only run one way.
You can't see the roof that the OP is referring to, and hopefully he won't take your post too seriously.
The collar or rafter ties keep the rafter from spreading which keep the walls from being pushed out under the load of the roof. Cut the bottom of a wire clothes hanger and see how easily it spreads apart. Same principle applies to the roof.
OR,
Did "morethanicanchew" reference to "floor joists" mean the ceiling/attic joists? If so, I agree with him, depending on the length of the rafters and size of the joist, that the ties aren't necessary.
To answer the original question. Generally, the ties should not be higher up the rafter than 1/3 of the overall height from the top of the wall to the roof ridge. Any further up would place too much stress on the lower portion of the rafter.
"A contented man enjoys the scenery of a detour"
Edited 6/5/2004 11:36 am ET by TKH
Several critical pieces of info missing. In this "attic", do the rafters run all the way down to the floor? Or is there a bit of a vertical wall (as seen from the outside) above floor level? How hefty are the rafters? What type of roofing?
In theory, if the rafters come down to the floor and are reasonably well attached to the tops of the exterior walls (making a rigid triangle with the floor joists), you don't need rafter ties. However, in older homes a rafter "tie" may have been used about halfway up to keep the (undersized) rafters from sagging inward (ie, the "ties" are in compression, not tension).
Here we go again.
I'm answering before reading the others because after seeing the same thread a dozen times, I know what all the responses will be.
The rafter ties are in the lower third of the rafters and work to prevent the ridge from asagging and the walls from spreading. The cieling joists often function as rafter ties.
The ties you mention here are called collar ties and are placed in the upper third of the rafter and function to prevent the rafters or roof sections from uplifting and hinging out at the ridge in high winds.
Use of a structural ridge with hardware fastening can eliminate either or both in some designs.
Anything else is just myth. I used to be a victim of some of those myths.
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Don't rely on collar ties to keep your roof on in high winds.
If high winds are likely to be a problem in your area -- and everybody seems to get high winds at some point -- get the Simpson Strong-Tie fasteners that strengthen the connection between the roof framing and the walls, and between the walls and the foundation. Install them next time you're replacing fascia or siding.
Simpson even has a fancy system to bolt everything down to the foundation.
From FHB # 137, pg. 24f [slightly edited for space and tired fingers] --
Q. We would like to turn the attic space of our garage into a storage loft.... About 3 ft. above each joist is a collar tie. Can we remove the collar ties to make this space useable for storage?
Mike Guertin, a contributing editor to Fine Homebuilding, replies:
I love this question. I love it because the answer is simple, although it will probably ruffle a few feathers among some builders and building designers. Structural engineers already know the answer to this question, so they won't be surprised.... Steve, based on your sketch, you can just tear out the collar ties....
Collar ties are practically worthless and are not required by the CABO or UBC codebooks. Most of today's construction textbooks don't even mention collar ties or show them in drawings anymore. Building codes require that the rafters themselves need to be adequately sized to support roof loading and that ceiling joists need to be fastened at lap joints to resist the outward thrust by the weight of the roof. Collar ties are the appendix of roof framing, an evolutionary dead end in home building hanging on by just a couple of nail points.
Th only time collar ties do any good is when they are specifically designed to be functional by an engineer or architect and are installed with meticulous care by the framer according to detailed drawings. Such collar ties are usually designed to resist outward thrust when there are no ceiling joints or structural ridges to serve the function. In these cases, structural collar ties should be securely fastened to the roof rafters with through bolts and spike grids. This hardware connects the collar tie to the rafter; a half-dozen nails don't do the job.
The ceiling joists that run between the exterior walls alongside each rafter are much better at resisting thrust provided they are fastened to the rafters as well as to the wall plates. I have to laugh every time I come across a set of house plans that shows collar ties between rafters above ceiling joists. I know right away that the plans were probably drawn by someone who doesn't understand how collar ties function.
One word of caution: Your sketch shows the 2x8 ceiling joists spanning around 16 ft., much too far for anything but the lightest loads....
AGAIN, Mike makes the same mistake that I used to make in confusing collar ties and rafter ties. Read my reply above once more. a collare tie is placed in the upper third of the rafter, as required in states byu the Southern building code
The example in Mike's article clearly is describing a rafter tie and not a collar tie. The element under question in this thread is a collar tie by its description and it is required in many states. It can be moved higher and does not ned to be connected in every rafter section.
And I did not adress any idea of it holding the roof connected to the walls. I spoke of the collar ties hgolding the roof together to itself at the ridge.
Every single one of the arguments you placed against me spoke to something other than what I said. Constructive conversation relies on both parties participating in the same conversation. I clearly defined my terms as used in building codes and as I was using them here, then you went ahead and iognored what I said, using them according to some of the common myths and mistaken expressions. None of your statements or Mikes had anything to do with what I had to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you in the above post. Maybe you can read it again and point out where I fell short in my choice of wording.
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The "argument" was an extended quote from FHB.
Use of a structural ridge with hardware fastening can eliminate either or both in some designs.
I know that there is no ridge board as such in a truss roof, but I have never seen or heard of framing a roof with rafters and no structural ridge. Just took that part for granted. Oops!
Yes, the ridge beam ties rafter pairs together and, if the joins are done properly, with due respect for the fact that any enclosed space can experience positive pressure in high winds, that should be sufficient -- from a structural engineering standpoint. But by all means, build to code.
Sorry, but I have little patience for "x should be called y" arguments. Whatever.
" I have never seen or heard of framing a roof with rafters and no structural ridge. "
Again, maybe you have some funny definitions for the words you use, but the majority of roofs I see are framed just that way. All across the southern states, the stick framed hip roofs have no structural ridge beams, only a ridge board acting as a nailer for alignement. I don't know if it is your verbiage or your experience that comes up short, but so far this subject seems to be more than you can chew. If you've never seen or heard of such roof framing, it seems like a limited exposure to framing to me, sorry to have to say.
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Piffin
I'm far from expert or even experienced in framing. I am just trying to follow this and make sense of it.
Isn't it common in older homes to not have a ridge board(beam). I have a house in Iowa that the rafters just meet each other at the miter, nailed together, its held up for 125 years that way, I would guess all the houses in these 7 colonies are done that way. German community.
I don't think it was you that was making the argument that there was no such thing, I'm just asking because I figure you've been up on way to many roofs and probably seen it every way possible. I had always thought it was common to do it that way. Not right or wrong just common.
Just curious because the guy that I used to work for would always insist on putting two 2 by 8's as a ridge on a typical gable roof, I always thought that was insane and overkill, not to mention difficult to vent the roof because of the width of the wood at the ridge.
Just asking for curiosity, don't know enough to add anything to this thread.
Doug
You are right too.
It is common to frame with timbers the way you describe, or by peging them as half laps or mortised together with no ridge board of any kind when one or both of two situations coincide with that. One is a top plate timber large enough to withstand the outward thrust of the load the raftes transfer to lateral load. The other is the rafter ties that are normally going to be also functioning as ceiling joists in the house to completes the triangle that maintains equilibrium of thrusts.
I should say it is common to find such roofs in older homes - it isn't done that way too often anymore.
It is also common to frame with trusses.
And it is common to frame with structural ridge beams.
And it is common to frame with non-structural ridge boards.
Each way has it's requirements to achieve a stable structure. For any one to claim that because he has seen only one way or hasn't seen any or one of the other ways does not invalidate any of them. And some of these ways have been modified by the designs that make use of good builder's hardware.
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Thank you. Appreciate your time.
Doug
Edited 6/6/2004 12:24 am ET by Doug@es
I guess that each of us has "limited" experience, limited to houses we're familiar with, work we have done, codes we've worked with. My direct experience is limited to houses built in the northeast, north of the Potomac River. Covers a lot, but not everything.
I don't know much about the FHB editor's experience, but his engineering principles are sound.
But getting back to the original poster, he can remove the boards he asked about and replace/reposition them where he wants the ceiling. If he's concerned about his roof opening up in a positive pressure situation, he should refasten them with bolts that will hold the rafters together, not just nails.
Does that cover it?
Yup, we're in agreement now. Mike's engineering principles are indeed sound, but they did not adress tjhe issue in this thread is why I challenged their presence in the argument. The collar ties can be moved up and refastened, yes. You and I both work in the same part of the country. I had twenty years working elsewhere first and now about fifteen years here.
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Again, you stopped reading at my typo (which I quickly corrected) and started just shooting off your mouth for the last week or so, with a half-dozen of your childhood friends.
Keep at it, if it makes you feel superior. I don't have to deal with it, or you.
You obviously know something about framing roofs. That much is clear from 44081.22. But so do I. And I don't have to prove it to any of you.
A shame you don't know anything about manners or keeping a civil tongue.
We're now over 100 posts, so you won't be hearing from me again. Happy?
promise?
"Don't rely on collar ties to keep your roof on in high winds."
I didn't say that. I said it will keep your roof from OPENING UP (like a clamshell) in high winds.The clock that is five minutes fast is seldom corrected at quitting time.
Don't rely on collar ties to keep your roof on in high winds."
I didn't say that. I said it will keep your roof from OPENING UP (like a clamshell) in high winds.
Try as I might, I can't imagine a roof opening up (splitting down the middle) yet staying on the house. However, if there is no ridge beam, I suppose it could -- but under those circumstances, would some 2x4 nailed between rafter pairs really make a difference?
I've seen a bit of tornado damage in my day, even been within a few feet of a smallish one, and they really make quite a mess. But even this smallish one pulled a mature tree out of the ground, root ball and all, then dropped it. Not on my house, thank God. But an awesome force.
I think I'd rely on more than some 2x4 to keep my roof together.
But that's just me.
"Try as I might, I can't imagine a roof opening up (splitting down the middle) yet staying on the house."
Yes and no. A roof will do that, but once the split occurs, it will not stay on the house. The codes do address this issue.
"I think I'd rely on more than some 2x4 to keep my roof together."
Do you know what tensile loads a 2x4 can take? Alot of trusses only use 2x4's.
Earlier you expressed disdain for concern with verbiage. Without standardized terminology, we cannot communicate effectively and efficiently. I have moved several times, and each new location brings on a new set of terms. Most guys think you're stupid when you ask what the terms "deadwood", "teco", and "aspenite" mean. Because they have always called something by a certain name, that must be what everybody who knows their stuff calls it. I think this is a prime example why our industry is so behind.
I am currently working on a slate roof project. This roof had no ridge at all, just rafters toe-nailed at the plumb cut. A ridge is only structural if it has the ability to transfer the loads down to the foundation. Many ridges are not structural, even they might appear to be.
A collar tie is in the upper third, a rafter tie in the lower third. The original poster stated this his ties were within the upper third, so they are therefore collar ties. Mike Guertin was referring to rafter ties, because they are in the lower third. Different set of concerns.
Jon Blakemore
Hi, Jon!
Do you know what tensile loads a 2x4 can take? Alot of trusses only use 2x4's.
Yes, on both accounts. My concern wouldn't be the 2x4 so much as the nails. Trusses use a lot of wood and nails, but also a lot of steel, in just the right places.
Earlier you expressed disdain for concern with verbiage. Without standardized terminology, we cannot communicate effectively and efficiently. I have moved several times, and each new location brings on a new set of terms.
I have no disdain for words, just for arguments over their "true" meaning, precisely because things are named differently in different places. To me that's just life in a very big country. When I first moved to Maryland decades ago, I couldn't understand any of the Tidewater dialect. Now I can. To me, that's just the way it is. I don't want to argue about that.
Most guys think you're stupid when you ask what the terms "deadwood", "teco", and "aspenite" mean. Because they have always called something by a certain name, that must be what everybody who knows their stuff calls it. I think this is a prime example why our industry is so behind.
Most guys who think you're stupid are just ignorant themselves <shrug>.
If we're behind, we have a lot of company. National publications, and to a greater extent national television networks, have spread the Northeast/New England dialect nationwide, and have begun to standardize American English to a certain extent. But I expect that at least some of the regional dialects will survive. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
It's scary, the amount of bad information and mis-communication flying around in this thread. Collar ties do aid in preventing the roof from opening up like a clamshell. You may never have seen it, but the forces do exist. That is their purpose in traditional stick framing. Wall ties (often serving double-duty as ceiling joists) prevent the walls from spreading and ridge from sagging. These are two different names for two framing members which serve very different purposes. They are all too often confused with one another. The proper location of each has already been described accurately by others, so no need to re-hash.
With all do respect, "More than I can Chew" is a suitable name for your responses to the original post and many of the posts that follow. You have given some less than helpful information out, and when corrected, you act like it's all just symantics and you're being nit-picked. That's a dangerous and arrogant attitude. Now I'm not Piffin's lawyer or anything, but he was trying to explain and clarify and you seem to have taken offense to that.
One of the things I love most about building, is the never ending learning curve. Whether I'm trying to learn and understand methods used for years, or doing the same with brand-new materials and techniques, it is always a challange. Staying open-minded and "teachable" is the only way to longevity in this field.
For the record, 90% of the work I do is as a framing sub in the Northeast. Collar ties are one of the very last things I do when framing a roof. After setting the ridge and rafters, after sheathing, and sometimes after installing roofing materials. I can't in any way imagine how collar ties would aid in physically framing a roof as you stated.
With all do respect, "More than I can Chew" is a suitable name for your responses to the original post and many of the posts that follow. You have given some less than helpful information out, and when corrected, you act like it's all just symantics and you're being nit-picked. That's a dangerous and arrogant attitude. Now I'm not Piffin's lawyer or anything, but he was trying to explain and clarify and you seem to have taken offense to that.
I guess I could just say "Bite me" and return your personal attack(s) in kind, but -- with all due respect -- it is a matter of semantics (the meaning of words) and my response was much more measured than your subsequent post, quoted in part above.
I didn't mean to imply that semantics was nit-picking, just that I did not want to be drawn into an argument over what is the "right" name for a board, where there is honest disagreement. That is neither dangerous nor arrogant.
So far, I've seen a lot of "I'm right, you're wrong" posts, but little that is helpful to the original poster, from most of this thread. How about explaining to everyone how you attach a rafter to a ridge beam so that it's "structural," using your terminology, or what to look for in existing construction to determine if the horizontal 2x4 between two rafters is, in fact, holding the roof together.
Please feel free to take offense at whatever you like, but please let piffin take offense where he sees it, and rest assured that, until provoked, I did not intent to give offense to anyone.
Finally, Mister Pig, MoreThanIcanChew is an oblique reference to an esophageal disorder.
"Bite me"
Now that's good professional advise, isn't it? You seem to be the only one arguing here, yet you seem to feel that everyone else is trying to coax you into arguments? Hmmmm.
By stating that you had never "seen or heard of" a roof framed in the most common way known to man kind (rafters with a non-structural ridge board), you have shown your hand. You're an idiot. Is that a personal enough attack for you?
Why don't you set down that gigantic chip on your shoulder and join the gang? Nobody is right all the time. That's why we are here. To offer what good advice we have and to learn from one another. That is the nature of this forum. It is not about "my way is the only way and I already know everything"
I didn't mean to imply that semantics was nit-picking, just that I did not want to be drawn into an argument over what is the "right" name for a board, where there is honest disagreement. That is neither dangerous nor arrogant.
It is dangerous or arrogant. My bad. If you mistake a ridge board for a ridge beam and advise someone to remove their wall ties, for example, which you have mistaken for collar ties.....that is dangerous, my friend. And expensive. That was my point. That is why I say it is important that we are all on the same page in using terminology to desribe different parts of structure. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong, it's just that we all need to be on the same page to offer useful advise. That is, was, and remains the only point I was trying to make.
"Finally, Mister Pig, MoreThanIcanChew is an oblique reference to an esophageal disorder."
Oh...ok. And I'm Norm Abrams. Pet nicknames for one's self that are derived from obscure painful medical conditions are really catching on. How ironic.
Bite yourself.
Morethanyoucanchew,
You keep referring to the difference of collar ties and rafter ties as semantics. That is the problem. It is not semantics. They are different members that do two different jobs. Stating that the use of the two phrases are semantics implies that they are interchangeable. They are not however interchangeable in the same way that feet joist and finger joist, or Fly Hip and Broken Hip are. Instead, It is more akin to Trimmer and Cripple studs. These are two different members that are often confused with one another. If you go back and actually read piffins first post you would grasp this. And although collar ties are only found in the southern building code and the national hurricane code, the use of collar ties is accepted in most parts of the country as standard building practice.
I personally would be careful removing the collar ties in the original post because they may be under compression from the opposing sides of the roof. Removing the ties could cause the rafters to sag slightly. At the vary least install the replacements as close to the original collars ties as possible.
Also, according to the IRC if you do not use a ridge as a nailer then the rafters have to be joined with a gusset plate.
Morethanhecanchew sent this as a reply to my post.
I would not post it either if this was my opinion, but I figure that it will be a good read for the rest of you.
"Perhaps you should re-read my posts.Unless a crosstie -- at whatever elevation -- is engineered, specified, andinstalled according to some rather precise standards, it is not a rafter tie ORa collar tie. 2x4s running from rafter to rafter are NOT, in and of themselves, either one. And even if they were, they could be moved. Question asked and answered. Period.And I did not say that there aren't ways of framing a roof that do NOT involve aridge beam, only that a "non-structural" ridge beam is SHEER FOOLISHNESS. Ofcourse it's structural; otherwise there's just a spacing board or the ridge isframed in some other fashion. Who'd lug that big, heavy, expensive beam to thepeak if you just wanted to space the rafters? But a 2x4 collar tie that is somehow exerting outward thrust on the rafters??? Whew!
Edited 6/6/2004 8:39 pm ET by Kyle
Unless a crosstie -- at whatever elevation -- is engineered, specified, andinstalled according to some rather precise standards, it is not a rafter tie ORa collar tie.
I assume that you think that the IRC sec. R802.3.1 does not spec. or engineer the rafter ties to a given standard? Is it not percise enough for ya?
2x4s running from rafter to rafter are not, in and of themselves, either one. And even if they were, they could be moved.
Why are these not collar ties? If not then what is? It can be moved in the upper one third of the roof.
And I did not say that there aren't ways of framing a roof that do NOT involve aridge beam, only that a "non-structural" ridge beam is SHEER FOOLISHNESS. Ofcourse it's structural; otherwise there's just a spacing board or the ridge isframed in some other fashion. Who'd lug that big, heavy, expensive beam to thepeak if you just wanted to space the rafters?
All ridges, purlins, rafters, joist, walls, collar ties, hips, and valleys are structural. If there are no "Rafter Ties" then a ridge beam must be used to prevent outward trust. Ridge boards are primarily there for proper rafter spacing and a nailing surface. I wouldn't even want to consider framing a roof with out these foolish boards. Besides what would I nail my broken hips and valleys too?
But a 2x4 collar tie that is somehow exerting outward thrust on the rafters???
A collar tie prevents outward thrust at the top of the rafters, but does not exert the thrust itself.
I see that you are talking to yourself.
But you agree with me, point by point.
When will this end?
Your reading skills suck. I just hope you guys don't kill somebody.
Bye!
MoreThanIcanStomach
I'm sorry you feel that way.
I offer you this as a truce.....
How's that for professional!
Har Har Har Har........
Just been one of those days I guess........
all right..I'm leavin Ky ..gottsa work with you..bold azz MF ..LOL
is that tongue more'n he can chew? yar!
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
How you like them uglies?
I got the corner on ugly..you,...a close second..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
is that tongue more'n he can chew? yar!
maybe, maybe not, but that long tongue could very well be the only reason he's married with a face like that...
Atta boy CAG!
Do you keep a copy of that lying around just in case, or did you shoot especially for this post?
What i really want to know is how this new attic should be vented? or not? or maybe...............................
Nope. Shot that just for the occasion.
Don't know what got into me, it just felt right at the time.
I was really only trying to help. The "bite me" comment got to me after awhile.
Thought the pic might lighten the mood a little and put it all back into perspective.
Sure felt good though....LOL!
fine. go squirt a few. u big baby! but don't get your brand new tool belt wet.
O sorry
"Your reading skills suck. I just hope you guys don't kill somebody."
if your framing skills are equall to your wrting skills, somebody has already died, just to keep things in context here.
Thanks for the laugh. Keep it up and I'll die of laughter.
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I went back through the thread to see if the original poster had been back.
He hasn't even read post #2.If you ate pasta and antipasta at the same time, would you still be hungry?
"He hasn't even read post #2."
Boss,
..........or he logged on as a guest, got the info he needed,.....and left. Enough info posted to answer the original question.
90's today down in Carville today, NO?
Jon
He could have logged in as a guest - No way to know.
I was kinda curious, as it bugs me when someone wanders in here, asks a question, people take the time to respond, then they never return.
It's gonna be around 90 all week. (And plenty humid)
But it's Carlinville, not Carville.You miss 100% of the shots you never take [Wayne Gretzky]
"He could have logged in as a guest - No way to know."
Prospero knows.......................assuming he has a static IP address, or poor security protocols. Actually, I've read messages to me as me, but sometimes the "unread" message doesn't go away if read first as a guest. Seems random.
Jon
HHHAAAAWHHUUMMPPFF..
There..like Kramer on Sienfeld..
My log home is pushing double centuries..I have 4" Diameter cedar rafters, half lapped and pegged at the ridge..they bear on exterior logs 2 and a half feet above the second floor joists.
The rafters are spiked with cut nails into the short height walls..given that the dovetailed corners "lock" the gable wall to the facade walls..there are no collars now..YUP I took them out.
There was a 1x4 at approx 4/5 up..on a 10/12 roof..which has 1x4 skip, with steel standing seam on it. The removal of the 1x4 made no difference..albeit, now I have a cathedral ciel.
MTICC maybe under a different logistical viewpoint or an abberation..but everyone, Piff, Dies..me..we gotta just consider what the core is..and IMO..MTICC..is off the mark.
FWIW!
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Just curious,
What type of foundation is your house on? Stone?
Yessir..stone piers. No footers.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
My log home is pushing double centuries..I have 4" Diameter cedar rafters, half lapped and pegged at the ridge..they bear on exterior logs 2 and a half feet above the second floor joists.
The rafters are spiked with cut nails into the short height walls..given that the dovetailed corners "lock" the gable wall to the facade walls..there are no collars now..YUP I took them out.
There was a 1x4 at approx 4/5 up..on a 10/12 roof..which has 1x4 skip, with steel standing seam on it. The removal of the 1x4 made no difference..albeit, now I have a cathedral ciel.
So there are many ways to frame a roof, without ridge beams. I said that, repeatedly.
And removing the 1x4 did nothing to the structure. My very first point.
Did nothing cuz..it's non-conventional..READ the dovetail corners and LOG construction..my top plate is 8x16x 28'..white oak...see now?
Making an observation, not an attack
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Sphere,
Yours is unique in that the top plate/log wall probably has suffient strength to withstand the outward thrust generated by the roof.
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Kyle,
I also recieved a private e-mail on this subject that I can only presume was from Morethan... but he did not use that name. The person whoi sent this comm displayed a confusion of understanding as to the differences between a structural ridge beam and a simple ridge board, then ended the long thing with "All I ask is that you give the inquiring gentleman useful advice." which led me to laugh, givven the way things have progressed here, with almost everyone but Morethan... having given good advice.
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Well, at this point, having not read the rest of the responces, I hope thoings are settling down by now, but since you invite me to take offense where it is deserved, I will clear that one up.
I completely understand the regional differences in wording and havoing made the same errors in the past, I have no problem with that.
Where I did take offense and respond to is in the fact that the structural members were clearly described by placement and purpose and not only by terminology and you went right on to ignore that fact that we werre we describing two completely different elements of the frame but used the two asd thoughthey were one and the same, leading to the fact that you were giving out bad advice.
Being a bit of an obsessive compulsive azz, I simply needed to correct the error before somebody reading this learned the wrong thing and repeated it on however many jobs, to the detriment of the industry.
To be sure, I barged into thois thread with a bit of an attituide my own self, because like I said, I have seen this same thread and same batch of myths and misunderstandings repeated often before and wasn't feeling too patient that night. Sorry if that attitude started the ball rolling.
Now, let us go forth and build it right.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
the structural members were clearly described by placement and purpose and not only by terminology
Reminds me of something I was taught many moons ago, that all rafters are joists, but calling them just joists (not roof joists) does not communicate that fact very well.
Our "industry" is supposed to use our technical terms to foster precision. We would not tolerate arbitrarily calling a "rise" a "run." We probably ought not tolerate calling any horizontal member in the roof framing a collar tie. But I also get paid to be selectively picky about construction verbiage and usage.
To the question in the original thread, I am curious about the ceiling structure that is to now become a floor structure. Ceiling joists are allowed to be much smaller than even lightly loaded floor joists. The conversion of a storage attic into habitable space can have some side effects (like turning nearby partition walls into load bearing walls).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Try as I might, I can't imagine a roof opening up (splitting down the middle) yet staying on the house. "
I don't imagine it would. Hurricane clips would be needed to hold the bottom end of the rafters down to the walls. But if the roof opens up like a clamshell, I doubt the clips would stay intact.
So I think both are needed - The clips to hold the low end down, and the collar ties to keep the tops of the rafters together.The lessons most difficult to learn are those with the greatest rewards.
> So I think both are needed - The clips to hold the low end down, and the collar ties to keep the tops of the rafters together.
The way it's done a lot here is to use Simpson ST-22's over the tops of the rafters. The ST-22 is a strip of sheet metal an inch and a half wide by 22" long, with a s__tload of holes arranged in two rows. Center it on top of the ridge, and nail half of it to each rafter. This is a great reason to get a positive placement gun, even with a palm nailer it's a long, boring process. S__tload of holes....
-- J.S.
In new construction, I have no doubt that this sort of hardware does an even better job than Collar ties at holding that ridge together, but such is not likely in this case where he is retrofitting from the interior.
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To answer your question,
You can put the ties all the way against the ridge and you can use 2x4s. Personally I would at least put them on every rafter and nail them good.
If you are going to install sheetrock on them, I would install them about 8' from the floor joist and use 2x6s.
A couple of points to ponder,
I don't know where you live, but if you live in a part of the country where your roof will have a high snow load and your rafters are 2x6 @ 24" o.c. then they are probably undersized. If you have 19' between the knee walls, then your rafter span is 9'6". With a snow load of 50 psf, 2x6 rafters with ceiling attached can only span 8'4" (#2 SYP). You can add more rafters. At 12" o.c. said rafters will span 11'5".
If rafters are 2x6 you will probably need to strip the bottom of the rafters with a 2x2 to allow enough room for an air space between the insulation and the roof sheeting.
Robotach,
Just wanted to take this time and say Welcome to Breaktime and no, this type of communication isn't always the norm.
Building construction talk sometimes can get a bit on the feisty side and this being an open forum a lot of folks come and go with a wide variety of opinions. Please don't let it turn you away as there is a good bunch here with many years of experience represented.
I see that you are a first time poster here and hope you can glean from some of the information shown.
Gentlemen,
I want to thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I apologize for misnaming what are in fact collar ties, although it has been a very amusing discussion.
In this 60 year old house, the rafters are 2x6s with tongue and groove "sheathing" under some type of aluminum shingle. I can only assume that these rafters have been toenailed to balloon framed walls. I believe the ceiling joists are 2x8 and are not connected to rafters. I appreciate the conservative views of some of the folks who have replied. Snow loads are sometimes an issue, however I once had a small tornado rip a second story deck right off my house.
For clarification, I would like to ask both Piffin and Kyle if they suggesting that I can actually bump that collar tie up and have it remain functional given that the ridge is NOT structural and the connection b/w plate and rafter tail is uncertain. I am sure they spelled it out very clearly, but after reading 68 messages I am bleary eyed.
Thanks again to everyone.
Robotach
Rafter ties must be near the plates to be effective Many builders confuse collar ties with rafter ties. Both are horizontal framing members that connect rafters, but that's where the similarities end. Collar ties (which are required by the Southern Building Code and no other) function to resist the pressures of wind uplift on a roof by holding the rafters together where they meet the ridge. As high up as they are, collar ties have no leverage to prevent the rafters and walls from spreading outward. That job is best done by the ceiling joists.
The wrong and the rights of rafter tiesTo prevent roof loads from spreading the walls outward, rafter ties (or ceiling joists) must be in the lower third of the roof pitch. Collar ties are too high to keep walls from spreading and instead serve to resist uplift by holding the rafter together at the ridge.
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If there are no ceiling joists or if the joists run perpendicular to the rafters, then the code requires rafter ties. Similar to a ceiling joist, a rafter tie is typically a 2x4 that runs parallel to the rafters, from outside wall to outside wall, and ties the rafters together as close to the top plate as possible. Rafter ties need to be installed every 4 ft. down the length of the roof.Rafter ties do not have to be at ceiling height to be effective, but they must not be placed any higher than the lower third of the roof pitch. In other words: Measure vertically from the outside wall's top plate to the bottom of the ridge, and place the rafter ties within the lower third of that measurement. Once they get above that point, they lose their most effective leverage.I've seen builders compound their mistakes when they try to use rafter ties as ceiling joists in semivaulted ceilings. For maximum headroom or aesthetic balance, they place the rafter ties halfway up the roof pitch, near the center of the rafter span where they're too high to be an effective tie. Applying the insulation and the drywall greatly increases the load on the rafters at their most critical point: midspan (what engineers call the maximum bending moment). This added load can cause the rafters to sag, pulling the ridge down and also pushing the exterior walls outward.To avoid this problem, you'd need to engineer the rafters to carry the point load created by the additional weight being placed on them. You'd also need to design a ridge beam capable of supporting the roof load, just as you would if it were a cathedral ceiling, which essentially it is.
From Fine Homebuilding #128, pp. 110-115
Thank you, 3D, It couldn't be any more clear than that, with the drawing and all.
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Now then, 3D,
You wouldn't happen to be morethan in a second incarnation, having realized that you were wrong from this newfound information but too embarrassed to admitt and apologize like a normal grown up person, would you? The fact that you suddenly appeared after morethan disappeared and you sport the same attitude hints at this. If you are not the same person, I humbly appologize and thank you again for the info you provided.
If you are indeed Morethanyoucanchew, Then I suggest that you would feel better about yourself if you grew up and put yourself in your place by engaging in open honest dialouge instead of acting out so angrily.
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We have a winner folks!!! My very first thought..the snit emailed me too..
Yeah Piff..my place is OUT OF BOUNDS..these upper logs ain't movin..I almost wish they would, so they could self plumb..inward lean a bit.
All the old timers around here are offerin up "rememberences" "well, there used ta be a kitchen..right about here.." " the outhouse was right about over there", " that sping ain't dried up in 70 yrs..cuz we played in thar when I wuz a youngin".
The best one so far is " the man got shot..right there by that winnder..h'it was the revenue'ers ya know..he shot at them fust..then ..well..they a shot him..the floor there..see..h'it's a still got his blood there..looky here.."
That explains that big stain on the hickory floor..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
It's good to know that the water is good though
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"It's good to know that the water is good though"
But what about the other breverage?
Did the shooten put an end to that. Makeby the hardware is still in the attic.
no attic..it was all out in a back field..the fermenter was shot..an I mean..shot with bullets..lol
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"If you are not the same person, I humbly appologize and thank you again for the info you provided."
Piffin,
From time to time, I think the same thing about other posters, and it just isn't worth bothering trying to figure it out. WE all know who WE are. Like you implied, you can tell a lot from one's diction and writing/posting style.
Jon
I haven't disappeared. Just waiting for someone to show me a roof frame with a non-structural ridge beam. Not a ridge nailing board, a real ridge beam.
What do you do when the job's finished, ease it out the gable end and use it to decorate your next project?
I can tell from piffin's posts that he at least knows how to frame a roof. The rest of y'all just seem to be in some stupid pissin' contest.
Keep it up! You'll top 100 posts soon!
What gets me is Larry Haun is just sitting there reading all this and not saying a word.
Most beams are structural. Kinda the point.
Jon Blakemore
Most beams are structural. Kinda the point.
Kinda something I've known since most of you were in diapers. Kinda my point.
But if you want to keep telling me that I'm ignorant, and then lecturing me on stuff I've known for decades, keep at it. Y'all seem to be enjoying it. And I've just about stopped reading it. You'll hit 100, for sure!
I think it speaks highly of Larry Haun that he hasn't joined this pissing contest.
And I've just about stopped reading it. You'll hit 100, for sure
don't let the door hit ya in the ####.
dick.
I'll take the 100 spot by saying....
You tell 'em CAG!
You sure do like to prove your ignorance.
Your profile says that you are near the Mason Dixon line. Are you from Hagerstown MD? You remind me of somebody...
Jon Blakemore
it's hard to soar like an eagle, when yer flyin with a turkey..must be the venus transit across the sun..all the pissers are showing thier hands
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Your profile says that you're 23 <smirk>.
You're also a very funny guy. Tell me again what I do and don't know about framing. Maybe it'll get your buddies going again. Oh, I won't wade through the slop again, but I'll keep an eye on the message count.
Unfortunately, too many of these threads degenerate into such crap. Perhaps there could be a separate category, Degenerate Discussion? For crap like your's?
And please stay north of the M-D Line. Thanks.
Guy, you're only 39 years old. So you've got a decade or so on him (Jon)....big deal. You talk as if you ARE Larry Haun, with decades and decades of experience. Get over yourself. What's with the, "I been doin this stuff since you were in diapers..." crap? When I was in diapers, you were........eight? Didn't know they made tool belts that small.
You also seem to feel that this thread is unworthy of remaining in existence, yet you continue to contribute to it. You've been one of the biggest factors in it's perpetuation lately. Just let it go, man.
Why the big attitude? I think we've established the difference between ridge beams, and ridge boards, collar ties, rafter ties, ceiling joists, my ugly mug, diagrams, pictures, sketches, descriptions, weddings, a funeral, twenty six insults and three sidebars.
It's over......
It's over
OVER? It's not over till I say it's Over!
I dunno Hoss. This thread's getting ugly! Not that I've done anything to help the situation, but I come in here ducking the past few days. It's certainly been entertaining though. You kiddin' me..... I love this stuff!
Actually, I passed 39 quite a while ago. 39 and holding?
I'm old enough to be Jon Blakemore's grandfather.
Of course, my grandchildren would all be better behaved than Jon ;-)
Obviously, they didn't get it from you.
SamT
It's a marvelous thing , the bagel.
A simple thing can carry such tasteful satisfaction when covered with vegetable cream cheese. And vine ripened tomatoes are soon to be everywhere.
Add a heap of fresh alfalfa sprouts and let your saliva glands run.
A hot cup of java on the side please. Black today. Maybe a light touch of cream if it's a rain day.
Got an extra????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Hell, I'm buying. It's the garlic on the everything bagel that really gives it the zip.
Be right there...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
those everything bagels are damn good...
something in that everything part though don't sit well in my stomach
a bagel? just for putting on a roof?
Yep, I'm 23.
I would like to stay North if at all possible, but sometimes I have to go slumming.
I agree with Dieselpig... I'm out.
Jon Blakemore
Trusses require precise permanent bracingAny builder who's ever heard the words domino effect knows it's important to brace trusses as they are being erected. But not everybody understands what permanent bracing involves.
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Permanent truss bracing
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To ensure a stable, long-lasting roof, most truss systems require three types of permanent bracing: continuous lateral bracing of the top and the bottom chords; and diagonal bracing at the end of the building, and in between, if necessary. The bracing for the top chord is typically satisfied when the roof sheathing is applied. The bottom-chord bracing is normally accomplished by placing a row of 2x4s on top of the bottom chord and then running them alongside a panel point (the point where the webs and the bottom chord meet) for the full length of the building. In a wide building, these bottom-chord braces should be roughly 10 ft. o. c.The diagonal bracing -- actually a form of X-bracing -- is the one builders often get wrong or omit altogether. Diagonal bracing should be placed at each end of the building and every 25 ft. along the length of a long building. To prevent the domino effect, the first leg of the X is formed by a 16-ft. 2x4 running down at a 45° angle (or less) from the ridgeline of the gable-end truss to the bottom chord of the farthest reachable inner truss. To take the hinge effect out of the connection between the gable wall and the gable truss, the other leg of the X runs from the top plate of the gable-end wall upward to the top chord of the same inner truss to which the first leg is attached. It's also important to make sure the braces are run alongside the webs of the intervening trusses and securely nailed to each truss.In certain situations, it may also be necessary to brace long web members that are in compression to prevent them from buckling under load. If any web bracing is required, the proper procedure for it will be noted in the technical design sheet that comes from the manufacturer.
From Fine Homebuilding #128, pp. 110-115
Boss,
>>the proper procedure for it will be noted in the technical design sheet that comes from the manufacturer.
Did you understand all that???????
Don't be too hard on him
3D
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SamT
Edited 6/8/2004 12:32 am ET by SamT
Edited 6/8/2004 12:34 am ET by SamT
After reading Boss's last post I think he must carry a degree in civil engineering too. ;o)
Sorry - Us rednecks don't need no college degrees........................(-:One definition of an economist is somebody who sees something happen in practice and wonders if it will work in theory. [Ronald Reagan]
Somebody say rednecks.........?
Sorry - Us rednecks don't need no college degrees........................(-:
Just a hammer, a few nails, and a sixth grade education.
Not sure why you posted that to me. But most of that is correct. A couple of notes, though:
"To prevent the domino effect, the first leg of the X is formed by a 16-ft. 2x4 running down at a 45° angle (or less) from the ridgeline "
There's a lot more to bracing than that. And why do they call out a 16' 2X4? You use the length you need to get from point "A" to point "B".
"The bottom-chord bracing is normally accomplished by placing a row of 2x4s on top of the bottom chord and then running them alongside a panel point for the full length of the building."
Actually, the bottom chord braces are supposed to be 10' O.C. Doesn't matter if they're at the panel points or not.If Democrats and Republicans could read they would be Libertarians.
Robotach,
It was quite entertaining, watching all the the hogs and pigs egging each other on and wallowing in their own stupidity. Junior High all over again. Thanks!
Son,you better be careful about what hogs you say are wallerin' in their own truss stupidity.
SamT
Well thanks for regurgitating all that wonderful information back to me. I'm sure Boss Hogg will tape that to his refrigerator 'till he figures out what it means. Oh yeah, anyone mention to you that he's a truss designer? I think I'll take the day off to study all that good 411, so I can be more like yourself and run around nauseating everyone with my elite attitude and magnetic personality.
Welcome to Breaktime. Thank goodness you came along to clear everything up for us big dummies. It's also good to see that you took the time to get to know everybody before insulting us....that's always been the best way to make friends. Your charming demeanor must really make you popular.
"MorethanICanChew" will be very happy to know that his Mommy came along to set things straight and make everyone stop teasing him.
Now put and egg in your shoe and beat it.
Gee Whiz, piglet, Since the articles quoted by 3D agreed with what we had to say and showed morethan to be wrong in his original assertations, I have to assume that the gross stupidity he was refering to was from morethan. It was a pretty gross comment though, wasn't it?
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
> bump that collar tie up and have it remain functional
If the function of the collar tie is to hold the rafters together at the ridge, the higher the better. If it's there for mid-span support of the rafter against sagging, moving it upward reduces its effectiveness.
-- J.S.
First, I would ask how you feel certain that the ceiling joists are not connected to the roof rafters. A direct connection is best but if the rafters are connected to the top plate and the ceiling joists are connected to the top plate, then they are connected, albeit indirectly. The Ceiling joists act as rafter ties to prevent the walls from spreading. If you have no ridge sag and no wall spread(lean out ) then they are doing the job. The collar ties above are not related to that structural function. They might assist in some minor unquantifiable way but not to worry about that.
The collar ties that you want to move up - leave them in place while you attach new ones at the desired height - let's call it 8'2" above the floor. It is best if these are 2x6 or 2x8, not because they will carry a load across their span - tho they will do that to some degree in carrying the ceiling - but because the point of connection to the rafters is the critical spot you are dealing with. The more nails or bolts you can get in there, the better off you are, up to a limit of making the joint nail poor.
Then, after putting in the new ones, you can release the old ones.
If these were rafter ties you were replacing, you would want to take other precautions in the process, but unless you have a tornado while in process, you will be fine on this. Have fun.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Robotach,
Way to many variables involved. Call an engineer. If you don't and something goes wrong it will cost you far more to pull the house back together than it would have to pay someone to come take a look.
any time I'm not 100 percent sure about something I call an engineer. then its off my shoulders and onto his. cheep insurance
These are some pretty smart guys, All the Jabs aside. But, your right. let someone who is trained and insured for such things have a look. I'm not much for exposing myself to unnecessary risk.