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Discussion Forum

Rail installation man hours

jonblakemore | Posted in Business on August 18, 2009 06:04am

I don’t usually ask questions like this, but I’m curious what others think and suspect that the responses may make for some good discussion.

The job:

Install red oak newels, over the post rails, and forged iron balusters.

View Image

View Image

View Image

From the bottom up- RH and LH volutes, standard 6010 oak rail, custom made rosette at left hand side of stairs (house has bullnose corners and the client does not like seeing the rosette proud of the corner), a 2 rise gooseneck with 90° turn, gooseneck to get up to the level rail section, and a rosette. The hallway will just be two newels with a 90° bend in the rails, terminating in a rosette.

We will be using forged iron balusters with a knuckle. Two balusters per tread (VA allows a 9″ run so we’re okay on the spacing) and the knuckles will alternate from one knuckle per baluster to two knuckles and then back to one etc.

The balcony section of the main rail will have the belly-type balusters (looks like half of a lazy hourglass). We will be using forged iron shoes on both the level bottoms of the balusters and on the top rails.

No finishing involved, just carpentry. We will not have to do any work on the existing treads or anything like that.

How many hours would you project for this job?

 

Jon Blakemore

RappahannockINC.com

Fredericksburg, VA

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Huck | Aug 18, 2009 06:09am | #1

    I love these.  Because I'm guesstimating totally outside my area of expertise, with no repercussions, financial anyway, and if I get called out I can just go hang out in another thread while my pernicious advice corrodes the moral fiber of all who heed it!

    34 man/hrs.

    View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
    1. User avater
      jonblakemore | Aug 19, 2009 02:58am | #3

      Thanks Huck & Shane.Any others with advice? 

      Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

      1. stevent1 | Aug 19, 2009 03:01am | #4

        Is the wrought iron screwed on or let in?

         

        Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood

        1. User avater
          jonblakemore | Aug 19, 2009 04:57am | #12

          Let in, I guess. The holes are drilled to accept a 1/2" square profile, the balusters installed with epoxy, and the shoes installed on the tops & bottoms of the balusters with their set screws. 

          Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

      2. User avater
        Sphere | Aug 19, 2009 03:24am | #5

        my first stab was 24 hours, 3 days. But to cma, i'd go more like 28-30.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

        "If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt

        View Image

  2. ShaneG | Aug 18, 2009 06:10am | #2

    24

  3. Kowboy | Aug 19, 2009 03:35am | #6

    It sure seems to me the Newalls should have been installed prior to the finished floor. How are you going to secure them to the framing now?

    I hope Stan reads and responds to this one.

    Good luck,

    Kowboy

    1. User avater
      jonblakemore | Aug 19, 2009 05:00am | #13

      Kowboy,

      We will use a newel bolt like this:View Image if there is enough wood underneath the locations.
      We will use this:View Imageif there's not any meat to fasten to.At least that's the plan. 

      Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

      1. silver77 | Aug 19, 2009 07:35am | #14

        I've used lots of suretites-the upper picture but i wouldn't use the lower one...if you can't use a suretite, look for a keyhole fastenerI do mostly renos, meaning the finish floor is in...layout newels and drill a 1-1/2 hole saw in the centre of the newel-then fish around to find a joist-glue the holesaw plug back in then put the suretite in... on an angle if you have to and bang plumb...once the newel is plumbed- i run some pl premium around the hole and the bottom of newel-tighten...but not to final torque.Finish rail and when plugs go in...torque up nuts-strong like borsch...btw-I always use excel to work out the time- 2 hours per post...etc.set-up 1 hr
        tear down/pack 1 hrI'll email an estimate if you want... si;lver

        1. User avater
          jonblakemore | Aug 19, 2009 02:35pm | #15

          Silver,Thanks for the advice on the newel bolts. I wasn't sure about the giant toggles.I would be very interested in seeing your estimate sheet. My email is JBlakemore {at} RappahannockINC {dot} com.Thanks. 

          Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

          1. silver77 | Aug 20, 2009 06:16am | #16

            Jon,I spent the day installing 2 newels-not quite done...a newel usually takes me 2 hours using suretites...I took pictures and will post if you're interested...I used lag bolts on these.factors:
            kids going up and down the stairs...kids playing wifi in the next room...harder than usual layout...lots of notching on the nosings...cutting corners out of newels...cutting outside-all takes time I am attaching 2 excel estimate sheets-hope they help...I learned lots from cargin on the excel sheets...basically create the job on the spread sheet and fill in the hours per job...some rail jobs I do a low ball and a high ball to come up with a price...my experience has always been that all the little problems suck up
            a far amount of time...I also made a new layout jig that is the best I've ever used-simple too...I'll try to attach a picture tomorrrow.silver

            File format
  4. RedfordHenry | Aug 19, 2009 04:17am | #7

    How far away will the chop saw be? I'd budget at least a week.

  5. jimAKAblue | Aug 19, 2009 04:30am | #8

    I'm going to spit out my WAG. 16 skilled manhours.

  6. robert | Aug 19, 2009 04:32am | #9

    In my prime that would be a two day job (16 Hours), but just barely if it was wood Balusters.

    I would have added a day (8) for the Iron and a day(8) for the finished floors.

    So, 32 Hours knowing full well I could do it in two long days (10 Hours each).

    I know a few guys who can knock that out in a day (No, really 6 hours actually) if the floors weren't finished. I was never one of them.

    1. jimAKAblue | Aug 19, 2009 04:43am | #10

      Why do you think the metal takes longer? I thought it would be faster?

      You and I are on the same page in our thinking. I know I couldn't do it in a day with a helper but I've seen many who could.

      1. robert | Aug 19, 2009 04:47am | #11

        Depends on how the metal is fit. Wood doesn't have to be as precise a fit.

        I've done very little metal in the past and it's always been a pain in the a$$.

        Maybe with more experience.......................................

        I should add.....I'm a railbolt guy. Clamp nails can be faster. Stairworks in Souderton PA makes an attachment for a Dewalt Biscut joiner that will cut the grooves for two clamp nails in one shot.

        Same place also has risers (Goosenecks) with tails already on them.

        Those two things would probably save 1 1/2 to 2 hours on that job.

        Another tip is Pur glue. Sets faster and gets you back to work on the part sooner.................but forms a very slight, almost "Gasket" like layer between the glued pieces.

        Edited 8/18/2009 9:53 pm ET by robert

  7. robert | Aug 30, 2009 01:52am | #17

    So?

     

    In the end? How long?

    1. User avater
      jonblakemore | Aug 30, 2009 01:58am | #18

      Got the job- I'll let you know when we're done. 

      Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

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