We would like to use railway ties for a few retaining walls we need to build but we have heard that they can be infested with ants and you wouldn’t know it. We thought since they were so heavly treated that there would be no insect issues.
I would appreciate it if anyone could comment on this.
thank you
Listeners write in about fireplaces affecting family harmony and bionic suits, before asking questions about brick steps, ground-source heat pumps, and building a dome greenhouse in Maritime Canada.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Real RR ties are treated with creosote (or at least they used to be -- the stuff is probably illegal now) and IME, they are only marginally better than untreated wood for retaining walls. ACQ, or "treated" lumber, fares better, but is more expensive and lacks the RR tie "look".
One key to longevity is to keep the wall well drained by installing a drainage plane and french drains behind the wall so it is not in constant contact with moisture.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks MikeHennessy for the info. We need to build a retainingwall behind a gray water pit so that we don't continue to loose our sand, we thought this would be a good option, but I guess we will continue looking.
We were alos loooking at using these for steps going down a slop, lugging stone is to hard and 2 expensive for us.
BTDT. Scored myself 1600 real nice ties - delivered and stacked in the back 40 - for less than $2 a piece a few years ago.
The ties will be fine for your project. How many times have you seen cresoted RR tie members built in creeks and low lands that have lasted years?
But it is an issue of the quality of used ties. The best ones are rather expensive. The cheep ones will fall apart within a year or two.
Be sure to make liberal use of deadmen and buried posts. Use landscape fabric (the good stuff) behind your wall.
But, my experience has taught me the better material for what you want are the rocks. Locally found and properly stacked looks much better and lasts much longer.
And IF such rocks are easily found without hassle, they can be less expensive then the ties of proper quality. Don't forget the oversized nails ties require. And the chainsaw to cut them.
Rocks can and should be lighter than a decent tie.
Jeehs, I knew I should have bought him that Bob Cat for Xmas instead of the other little toys he wanted. Moving the rocks is what we are going to have to do we have them on the property just not where we want them. Maybe that winch I got him will come in handy to do this job of pulling stone up a slope.
Even though the railway ties sounded good, we don't want to do the job again.
Edit: pardon me Mike. I meant to address this one to poorgirl.
=============================================================
This book offer showed up in today's Email, one which you probably received as well.
One thing about laying up random field stone retaining walls, dry...it's an acquired skill, one which takes many hours of puzzle working in order to become proficient at it.
If you enjoy jigsaw puzzles or similar endeavors which need sustained single pointed attention, you might find stonework very rewarding. For some it's a pure delight, for others it's pure dudgery.
http://store.taunton.com/onlinestore/storeitem.html?iid=15122&cid=476&pcid=460&vid=20060723001
Edited 9/4/2008 4:39 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Thanks Hudson Valley Carpenter. I just received that book last week along with 3 other books that are for landscaping and stonescaping on a hillside and slope. We really like the look of these dry stack walls but wouldneed to get some "flatter stone dropped our stone is mostly round.
DH layed a vermont slate patio a few years back at home which was all random size, so hemight be up for this challenge once he finishes a few other things. ie... electrical, insulation and drywall.
""...once he finishes a few other things. ie... electrical, insulation and drywall."" After that post I just gotta ask , if he logs in here is his name:
"poorguy" ?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Well... what can I say... it was his "dream" not mine, I just try and keep him "focused"
Anyway, he can't be that poor putting in the hours at work that he is. Most people do refer to him as "you poor guy" and it's not always referring to being married to me. (LOL)Mine you he is looking a like "tired"
These rocks you have available, how big are the largest?
Big, car stopper type rocks, really do the best for what you have in mind. Boulders.
Borrow a backhoe to place them. Use smaller ones to back fill the cracks. Put landscape fabric behind them before backfilling.
Notice what developers are doing in similar situations around you. You want it to appear professional. If'n you don't have big ones, there's some quarry nearby that does.
I've done walls with both the smaller ones as well as the boulders - drystacked as well as mortared. And the blocks. And the RR ties. Several times for each.
The boulders will go the fastest and with the machine, the easiest.
Certainly you've had retaining wall experience. Tell this young lady how to do it on the cheep. Please?
Yes I think you are right, we do have big car stoppers that will do the job, it's just getting them to where they need to be, we will rent a small excavator that can lift and move these boulders and also dig the trenches to put them in. ALso move some sand and gravel piles that we have been shovelling.
I will take some pics this weekend.
thank you
The caution is warranted.
RR ties and wood eating (or dwelling) insects are a problem.
Thanks Dovetail, I guess we will stay clear of them and maybe look at doing a rock wall of some sort.
RR tie walls look good initially but they only last five, maybe ten years if you are lucky. In the '80s we lived in a neighborhood where the builder installed RR tie retaining walls and almost every one had to be torn out and replaced as they deteriorated and fell apart over time. In a dry climate they might last longer.
As for the ants, some species are very hardy and they will isolate their burrows from the creosote by plastering the walls with clay.
Like all treated wood, its only treated on the outside. Once that boundary is breached there is nothing to prevent the inside from rotting or making a home for wood loving insects. We have plenty of hollow RR ties around here, at least one is full of termites.Bob
There are several kinds of engineered concrete blocks made specifically for building retaining walls. They're available at most gardening centers including HD's.
I've never worked with them but I've seen several home improvement shows where they were one focus of a landscaping project. I was very impressed by the ease and speed with which the walls were built, all laid up dry of course.
"Rahgha", the Boston landscaper on This Old House, built a very large backyard project with them on one program. Great looking job, done in a short time. He was pretty stoked about it himself.
BTW, I've seen some disappointing results with RR tie walls. As previously noted, they usually don't stay put for more than a few years.
Edited 9/3/2008 11:49 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I like this idea, I think I will have alook at this instead ofmoving the rock on our property, sounds easier to me.
thks
One such line of products, found using "block retaining walls" on Google.
http://www.anchorwall.com/
Edited 9/3/2008 12:36 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Very nice, thank you. Looks like the way to go, nice and clean looking.
I've used Anchor Blocks in building retaining walls. Nice. But to do it right, you'll need a hydralyic block splitter (~$1800). Not to mention one block can cost the same as two RR ties. Enuff blocks to cover the same space as a RR tie can cost up to 15 times as much. Not to mention the block weighs 84#. But they look nice.
Rocks from your land is the cheepest. A rear bucket on a tractor's three pt. hitch can get them moved around fairly easy. Built right, nothing looks better.
I just did a wall with tumbled Keystone blocks, held together with fiberglass pins. Geogrid fits over the pins, too, so you can have a continuous deadman course. Even if you are building with wood, Geogrid is stronger than wood-tie deadmen.The blocks are very expensive, though.I built a CCA treated wall back around 1990. I used whatever the max-treated stuff was back then (.40# ret for CCA?). Cut ends rot faster than uncut, but there are some visible craters in the top course. As was said, the treatment doesn't penetrate the heartwood.Wood allows for some cool designs, though: about 18" above the ground, I extended a deadman course about 2' out into the yard, to support a cantilevered bench, which floats and snakes the along the length of the 70' wall. That was/is really cool.AitchKay
You are mistaken ... the Anchor site says they way about 41 lbs. And why couldn't you use a diamond blade or wet saw to cut them?
Someone recently mentioned an Ashlar pattern involving 3 different sizes of block.
That's what the Anchor Blocks I used came in (6", 12", 18"). The big base and oversized 18" dogs weighed 84 #. The 6"'ers were in the high 20's. By the time the pattern is properly set with bases, about half of the blocks are the big ones.
The blocks are 6" high. Even a 14" diamond blade won't cut thru on one pass. Even if I flipped it and cut form the opposite side, the amount of time, dust, and noise a saw puts out for one cut vs this shear makes the decision a no-brainer. Seriously, from 20 feet away, you can hardly hear this thing break a block - on a real nice line - within seconds and you're on to the next one.
This is what he looks like:
View Image
The step paddle on the right pumps the 40 ton hydralic jack inside to push up a 18" long, 3/4" thick blade from below. Another similar blade is positioned from the top. This one is able to be positioned down to the level of the block or stone via the hand screw you see. The hose hanging off to the left is an pneumatic assist line. I found it unnecessary. Here's an early shot of our project:
View Image
We went thru a total of 5 fully loaded 53' long semi's worth of blocks.
I'm using the same machine now on a sandstone walkway I'm putting in. It'll have 3" thick sandstone cut and trimmed into a herringbone pattern with soldiers along the sides. Lots and lots of cuts. My neighbors won't even know I'm doing it because it's so quiet. And fast!
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=87765.1I had Creoste timber retaining walls at my lake house that I got rid of last year and had a contractor replace with a block wall. It ran about $13 a square foot of wall face but that was with bad site access, still $$$.I don't have pictures of the new walls on this computer but they look good.Block wall is definitely the way to go.-DayEdited 9/5/2008 10:16 am ET by restorationday
Edited 9/5/2008 10:16 am ET by restorationday
Yes, I agree, but once againit's the $$$ and I want the insulation done before a "wall" that I don't see, so maybe we can make a dry stack wall from the rocks we have on the property. I can see my new job forming as I type.
understood. thanks for the clarification
NOW, I know what to get at the tool shop next!!
You haven't mentioned how high the wall needs to be.
Some of the landscape blocks are only rated for a 2' hight. These are ussually in the 4" thick by 12" long and 8" deep size range and much easier to handle than the larger block rated four walls up to 4' in height. Cost wise for they are about a wash for the same size wall (length and height).
I've built two walls with them. If you over dig the back side of the wall by 10-12",for a 2' high wall you will have plenty of room to create a proper drainage plane. If water leaching out the front of the wall is not an issue, you do not need any perforated drain tile behind the wall. Simply drape a high quality landscape fabric down the back of the block, across the bottom of the over dig, and up the face of the excavated bank. I install the fabric before laying the last course of block and then lay the block on it to keep it in place. Then fill the U shaped fabric sack with clean crushed rock (no dust or fines) to a height one course below the top of the wall (where you tucked the front of the fabric). Fold the back portion of the fabric over the crushed stone and finish filling to the top of the wall with soil.
You can use the smaller block for higher walls, but the above procedure is used every every 2' of height and a layer of geotextile cloth is added at the 2' layer and extended back into the area being retained about 8' IIRC.
The larger blocks, 8"H x 16"L x 12"D, are good for a 4' wall, but weigh in at about 40 pounds each. A day of stacking those puppies will have you calling a landscaping contractor to finish the job <G>.
As I mentioned, I have done two walls, one with each type block. A 2' high wall with the small block and a 3'-4" high wall with the larger block. On both jobs I paid the delivery charge to have them set on pallets down the lenght of the walls. That way I only had to handle them once, from the pallet to the final layed up location.
If neighbors or anyone sees you building your retaining wall, expect many, many request to help them build one or even pay you to build one for them. Wait untill you are finished with your job before accepting any or offering to help <G>.
A local building center has a sign pointing to faux RR ties, indicating they are made from recycled plastic from scrapped cars. Might be just what you are looking for.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I don't feel it's healthy to keep your faults bottled up inside me.
I have built retaining walls, etc with used RR ties. (I assume you mean used?)
To add to what others said above, I believe the Creosote (sp?) that they are treated with is considered a carcinogen. Further, the nasty black stuff will get on you and your cloths. You need some throw away gloves, etc. It's basically a kind of tar. It will gum up your chain saw. When I did it, the ties weren't of a uniform size, so that made it a bit more challenging to fit them together. Further, when I bought the things I had to pick through the pile to find ones that were in the best shape - ie - the least rotten. It's not exactly like picking through a pile of tooth picks... :-). I have since vowed never to use them again... Just my experience.
If you found new ones, maybe you might not have the dimensional and rot issues but the nasty-black issue would be even worse. I don't know, maybe they treat them with something different these days? CCA?
I'd opt for either keystone style concrete blocks or regular treated timbers. If treated timbers you want .40 as a minimum, but .60 or .80 treatment rates would be much better. Oh - and I'd get a few laborers.
I m so glad I raised this question on this forum, we definately will stay clear of the RR ties and look at a block wall of some type . I have enough books on landscaping that has instructions on this so we might just do a rock wall. We are going to need a few wall so thismight be the place to get the practice in on.
I've built several walls out of recycled RR ties. I like the way they look and the fact that it's not that complicated a process. I also like re-using a cheap and sturdy material. That being said the other posters concerns are warranted.
The variation in dimensions makes fitting the ties together for a tight wall difficult. Building a wall is VERY labor intensive. If you don't have any help a sizeable wall will take you a good chunk of time to build. Digging out the space for the deadman ties behind the wall is also a drag. And yes, you definitely need a chainsaw, preferably one that you don't value too much because the creosote will gum it up and get everywhere. I bought a decent electric chainsaw for $100 to do the cutting. Some of the ties will be very dense and hard to cut through, others will be soft in the middle and melt like butter. Have several spare chains on hand and use safety gear (glasses, hearing protection, chaps, work boots, gloves) when cutting. There are lots of nails and other nasty things in RR ties that can cause a chainsaw to jump if you're not careful. Get an engineer's hammer (small ~5 lb sledge) for pounding in the spikes. It's easier to handle and you can swing it while you're sitting on top of a RR tie at the higher courses.
When we built our walls, cost was a big concern.
I'm an engineer so I surveyed the site myself, checked the soil conditions, looked at similar structures in my neighborhood and dug a few test wells in the area I wanted to build the walls so I could get a feeling for how well the natural soil drained. I designed the wall to accomodate the possible ground movements, set the base course edge on concrete piers (about 2 inches above grade) to give some room for ground swell, help with drainage and provide a level/stable base. Deadmen were put in the wall every 6' OC with a 4' cross piece. I paid a guy to use a bobcat for the excavation. Materials (100 8.5' x 8" x 10" RR ties, soil fabric, gravel for base course and some backfill, 12 inch galvinized spikes) and the bobcat work combined cost me $1800 (in 2005) for one 30' wide wall that steps up a hill in two 4' rise embankments (with stairs) and one 15' wide wall that wraps around a corner with built-in planters. It took me three months to finish all of the work myself (no helpers). In three years there has been no movement of the wall, no failures of any portion of the RR ties and no problems with insects. The base and top courses are still level and the batter/camber of the wall face is still at the original 15 degree angle. I figure my work saved us about 10k$. Double that for doing the same type of walls with a block retaining wall system and labor costs.
Your profile says you're in Ontario, so frost heave might be a bigger concern for you than it was for me. But that will hold true regardless of the wall material you choose. If you're looking for a big cheap wall, and you want to lose 10 pounds doing the work, a good RR tie wall can do the trick. If you want something that is easier to assemble and requires less site prep, go with an engineered block system. But check with the local codes first. Depending on the wall dimensions and the soil characteristics, you might not have the option of designing and building something yourself.
Good luck.
Chris
Wow, thanks for the info. I would love to see pictures if you could get around to posting some. We have some massive errosion happening that no one really wants to tackle and the retaining wall for the grey water pit is just a drop in the bucket as for as walls go. The wall we require will have to be about 8-10ft high and 10' wide, we can't get a bob-cat down to this area, we had the bob cat in around May to dig the pits and now we have done some other work which makes the room difficult to get a cat in there.
Anyway, I think we would be interested in the recycled ties but not the real ones. Sounds like to much work and to many surprises involved in this product.
Please post pictures if you can.
I'll see what I can do about the pictures.
If erosion is your main problem, a wall may be part of the solution but not all of it. All retaining walls will fail because of water pressure if they do not have proper drainage. All retaining walls will fail/buckle if you put enough water behind them and then wait for a freeze. Have you tried to build a swale to direct the water away from the area or to keep the sand pit more stable?
-Chris
Yes, we have built the swails, I will take some pictures this weekend and post them, the slope on each side of the property is pretty extensive and with the downpours we have been having they are leaving 2-3'trenches where everything has caved in or separated.
We have had 3 different contractors in and no one has any time to do anything until next year. We have had so much rain that everyone is so far behind, they are not taking on any new work.
Pictures would help us all think about your problem better. But it really sounds like you need more than a wall, maybe even a retention structure or holding pond.
Erosion that severe from overland and underground flows that strong would be a problem for any wall system. If it were me, I'd go with the boulders and concrete (the more mass the better!) and a pretty thorough drainage system. I'd line the erosion flow paths with rock/cement like an arroyo style wash to guide the flow were it could be slowly absorbed over time.
Water will always win. Don't fight it, guide it to an easier path that takes it where you want it to go.
Yes, great advise, my husband puts draing pipe and weeping tile everywhere that there might be water, so he had already mentioned that all the walls would have drainage.
I wll come back with pics
Just to correct a piece of information given in this thread. Stackable concrete blocks can be made into a retaining wall of at least 12' in height. Not all blocks however are capable of being stacked that high, it depends on the manufacturer. I know because I have done it on a job site. I did need to have the manufacturer provide engineering data for the County Building dept. but that was easy to obtain. This wall is fully engineered off information given by the manufacturer and the installation was inspected and tested by a certified testing agency and also inspected and approved by a registered Geo technical engineer.
Yes , you have to use fabric installed as an anchor, as well as compacted gravel Between the fabric courses.
The wall pictured in the photos was built over the course of 3 days using a bobcat, 2 full time laborers and 1 half time laborer.
It also was back filled for a parking area by the excavating company as the wall went up, something no other process that I know of to use would have allowed me to accomplish .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes. Some blocks can go higher. The pre-engineering is really useful. They are much less labor intensive too.
And for situations where you really need structural integrity, you case IVANY blocks (http://www.ivanyblock.com/). The Ivany blocks might help out the OP's grey water pit.
Chris
This will be to expensive for us, we have alot of boulders and rock on the property, it's just a matter of being able to move it.
Stop now, they will rot out within 2yrs of installation, personal experience, was even stupid enough to try them twice. The only reason they last on RR tracks is because they are sitting on rip rap stone and for the most part are always dry. Ugly too....Got the $$ there is nothing like a field stone wall.
Just my 0.02$ on that point...
My RR tie walls are just over 3 years old and are fine.
There are some RR tie walls in my neighborhood that are 12 years old (or older) and are also holding up fine.
There's really no such thing as a bad wall material, just certain situations where a material or system selection is not the best/most appropriate choice.
For instance, say you're broke, but in two years you know you'll be in a better place financially. You could afford an RR tie wall with some sweat equity and in two years you can save and put in a nice stone faced or stacked wall. I'd rather have something cheap in place, like a RR tie wall, to prevent a slope failure or serious erosion than have to wait two years and have to live with the consequences. You have to look at the present vs. future costs and what options are available.
There are plenty of situations where an RR tie wall is not appropriate. But that doesn't mean it's never a good solution to a problem.
I've done the manufacturered block walls in what they call an ashlar pattern - 3 different sizes to give a more random look. $$$, and the base course blocks are 87# each. Looks awesome though - it's in the front, keeping that curb appeal!
View Image
This low wall was done with some very dense sandstone scavenged from a subdivision site - it was in the way for them. As someone else said, a great 3-d puzzle project and very rewarding. Some days I got on a roll and things were fitting together quite nicely. Other days I couldn't seem to make any sort of progress. Stone chisel, small sledge and grinder with diamond blade are your friends. Wish I had a better picture of the walls, but this gives a decent idea.
View Image
Then there's the poor person's approach:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=109307.19
Note that all of this is in 0" frost SF Bay Area - YMMV
Edited 9/5/2008 12:41 am by wrudiger
Edited 9/5/2008 12:42 am by wrudiger
Wow, very nice, also the view is great. We could incorporate soemthinglike that around thel property but for what we require it's to much. We don't have to do this wall, it's not something we see since it's not facing us, but we don't want all our sand sliding down the hill, this is why we wanted an inexpensive solution.
I think dh should just put up a PT wall, frame it and leave it, then I would plan vines and it's done. But.. I don't know if it really works like that and if it would hold the dirt.Definately a stone wall would like better