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Discussion Forum

Rain, Water, and Interior Problems

Nuke | Posted in General Discussion on October 14, 2009 03:41am

Many of you might remember my long-standing problem in which rainwater is getting into my home through the brick facade. Only the front of my home has brick:

The county does not consider bay windows as structure in a home and as a result doesn’t even require a roof! The original standing seam metal roof the builder used in 1999-2000 was not meant for brick or stucco. I spent the money after the 2003 hurricane incident to have it replaced.

The replacement was a flashed and counter-flashed standing seam roof, and unlike the original roof this one has a sub-structure, too. This corrected the exterior-side of the brick from allowing rainwater to reach the bay window drywall ceiling.

Due to 1st time homeowner training by my original Allstate agent, no insurance claim was filed. Time has lapsed and additional repairs to the bedroom window above the bay window, and the Greek (cornice) return was done shortly after the standing seam roof was replaced.

Unfortunately, the frequency in which rain falls on the front of my home is about once out of every ten rain incidents. The heavy rains from three weeks ago were fortunate in that rain fell, as usual, on the back side of my home. But Monday morning’s rains fell on the front of my home and once again water infiltrated along the air gab behind the brick.

Luckily for me I choose not to drywall the bay window ceiling again because I just could not trust this POS house. Instead, I nailed up some temporary plywood and waited for mother nature to prove me right. Long live the pessimist!

As wish garden-hose testing, water from natural rainfall still is getting in on the interior side of the brick facade and making its way onto the brick lintel, where is drips off and onto the interior ceiling of the bay window.

Now it has been several years since the repairs have been made and I am about to visit my local Allstate agent (have an appointment). While this isn’t a situation of risen water damage, I have to wonder how today will play out.

The bay window isn’t the only place water is coming into the home, as one of the bedrooms is showing signs of water infiltration resulting from a weather seal in the flashing for a flue that allows rainwater to run down into the attic and drip onto the drywall ceiling via the attic.

Seems that my home isn’t the only one having these kind of annoying problems. I have a neighbor with a carbon-copy home of mine with a carbon-copy problem, but there are still others with just poor construction issues that make assertive weather conditions an interior issue.

As reflection, please remember that discussions with my county’s chief building inspector (c. 2003) resulted in discoveries that the county didn’t adopt flashing codes in homes with brick facades until 2002, didn’t consider bay windows structure and thus not requiring any roof, flashing, etc., and that even after flashing codes were adopted (c.2002) new homes were being inspected by the county and violations simply ignored.

So, I’ll let everyone knows what turns out of todays insurance agent visit. My previous request to garner names of their preferred repair contractors were not permitted to be given out without a claim being filed. And my unfortunate condition is the only contractors haven offered to help were fly-by-nighters that made an attempt, disappeared, and left me with egg (the problem) on my face.

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Nuke | Oct 14, 2009 03:42pm | #1

    Hmm, the image did not post.

  2. GregGibson | Oct 14, 2009 05:03pm | #2

    Nuke,

    I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed with your visit to the Agent's office.  Homeowner's Insurance doesn't cover materials, workmanship, or design flaws.  I truly wish you luck.  The general consumer expects an awful lot from their insurance, but it's not a home maintenance contract or a warranty.

    Greg

    1. User avater
      Nuke | Oct 14, 2009 05:56pm | #3

      Greg, I am a pessimist by nature. I expect nothing from Allstate--except higher premiums. This is to determine exactly what is and isn't covered. It is an opportunity to determine what expectations should be. I'm all about setting customer's expectations and not sugar-coating anything.

      Going on your response, the roof's failure isn't suficient for applicable use. I accept that, but paying for something 'unknown' isn't good either. And like the healthcare reform bills needing a good lawyer to understand, so to are homeowner's policies.

  3. User avater
    Matt | Oct 16, 2009 04:04pm | #4

    Sucks that you should have to undertake significant repairs only a few years after buying a new house.

    Re building code and code officials, let me clarify a few things.   As far as I know any building code says that the house must be weather proof.  The problem is that, practically speaking, a code can not be so comprehensive so as to cover every scenario.  Rather than the building code book being hundreds of pages, it would need to be 1000s of pages and would not be very usable.  Sounds like your state/local codes have been updated to cover some of the issues you got burned on though.  Understand though that intent of building codes is to "hit the high points" and the integrity of the builder is still depended on to produce quality.

    Re dealing with building officials, my extensive experience is that they while they are most often helpful and knowledgeable (if sometimes short on practical application knowledge), but they are always very wary of any liability or responsibility.  This always amazed me as (in my state anyway) there are contracting laws that specifically state that the general contractor is responsible for any construction deficiencies (code violations), and that the building inspector has no liability.  OTOH I have never been to court on something like this so don't know the full details of how litigation might play out.  In the defense of building inspectors, their inspections are only "currasary looks" at the work (that is actually HI language), meaning that a BI isn't going to be crawling up on the roof to verify the proper installation of flashings or the like, and they generally don't cover quality in workmanship, but rather just verify that the proper elements are in place, etc.

    Also, although I think you know this first hand I'll state that with national builders the people supervising construction are more of schedulers than actual people who are extremely knowledgeable in the technical aspects of building.  Their job is to complete the house on time and under budget.  There is a warranty department to deal with after the fact problems.  So, these house factories depend on their subs to build a good house.  These are the same subs who have been beaten down on their prices to a bare minimum, with the incentive being the possibility of the job security of a year or 2 of steady work.  That is how this kind of thing happens.

    Here a comprehensive 1 year warranty is required of both subs and the GC.  After that though not required, 10 year structural warranties are common.  How is that handled in your state?

    I'd surprised if insurance would cover any of this.

    1. User avater
      Nuke | Oct 16, 2009 05:03pm | #5

      Matt, my conversations with the county's chief building inspector, and his delivery of the building codes as they applied to my home at the time of construction, were simple and clear.

      At the time, bay windows, even those that run from floor to ceiling, are treated as ornamental, not structural, and that only structural components in a home need to be covered by a roof--nor protection from the [weather] elements.

      Stunned as I was, I accepted this as a fact of the land (not being a native, mind you). And being that it was 2003 when the hurricane came through, there wasn't a means for which I could hold the builder accountable under the structural portion of the warranty.

      I need to give someone a call, though. Someone has made a recommendation for someone to come out and maybe troubleshoot, maybe give a repair gameplan, etc., and this recommended person isn't suppose to be a fly-by-nighter I have so often run into.

      BTW, I really appreciate your reply.

      1. User avater
        Matt | Oct 16, 2009 05:21pm | #6

        Since the mold scares of the late 90s(I think it was) and the resulting litigation, the building industry as a whole is a lot more aware of weatherization and the prevention of water intrusion.   Doesn't help your situation though...

        Still sounds like a cop out by the BI though.  Back to the lack of responsibility/liability thing.

        BTW - what model code does GA currently use?  Just curious.  As far as I know, the first version of the I-codes that was widely accepted was the 2000 edition, and states that did adopt it didn't do so for a year or 2 after.  Maybe that is what happened in GA? 

        1. User avater
          Nuke | Oct 16, 2009 05:39pm | #7

          Unfortunately I do not know what code book the county is referring to. This was something that took place in 2003. And the chief building inspector implied that the county codes were a focus, not a state level code.

          Still, the entire concept that I could be told by a chief building inspector for the county that because the bay window area is ornamental, and not structural, it wasn't even required to have a roof.

          That alone amazes me.

          1. Gough | Oct 18, 2009 01:36am | #8

            We're in the midst of re-siding (and partially re-sheathing) a 10-year old house on which the weatherproofing was improperly done: no drip cap over the windows, no flashing tape at windows/corners, Tyvek missing or improperly detailed, on and on. Unfortunately, the H.O. has very little recourse. As someone pointed out, the builder inspector is virtually immune, the builder doesn't have two nickels to rub together, and home inspectors in this state are completely unregulated. I feel bad that the owner will probably end up paying $30K+ to make his $300K house weatherproof when that should be the expectation from the beginning. Other than a very informed homebuyer, I'm not sure of a solution. Here in the Northwest, IIRC, OR has added an additional inspection stage for the building envelope, or some such term. I'm not one to encourage additional governmental intrusion into our work, but we in the construction trades haven't stepped up to the plate either.

          2. User avater
            Nuke | Oct 18, 2009 01:08pm | #9

            I live in redneck land, USA. Housewraps are to this day considered to be an outlandish luxury of unproven worth, time, or homeowner value. This isn't my opinion, but the opinion of most tract builders in my area, and most certainly those of the builder types that built homes in my subdivision. BTW, thanks for the reply.

            My home isn't wrapped. There are no drip caps and very little flashing that I, or anyone else, can identify. And when I originally posted about this problem on FHB several years ago the agreed upon best solution was a $30-40K remove the entire facade and start over. Something this 2-4 year old homeowner could't afford for a house built in 2000.

            BTW, when I went looking for a skilled means to fix my home's problem I was looking at finish carpenters. They all told me what I needed was a good roofer. When I had roofers over, they all told me what I needed was a good finish carpenter. Yesterday, the person my insurance agent recommended, advised I need a reputable company that specialized in doors and windows.

            Unfortunately, even he admists in his 22 years in the Atlanta area they are extremely few and distantly apart. He recommended a company I will attempt to engage on Monday, but admits they may not come down from Athens (to Buford), but I am open to bribes. :)

            As for the roof itself, he stated before even getting out of his vehicle he could see the roof had completely failed. When I asked what were the tell-tale signs he pointed out things that I've been seeing for half a decade on this not-yet 10 year old home. He wrote up something for both my bay window/study water infiltration problem, and something else on the roof in general.

            I thought it was amusing when he noticed I had not pressure-washed my driveway to remove the sand that obviously came from the roof shingles. All grit and no mold/mildew. I simply thought I should not wash away anything that could be considered evidence of a problem.

            As for this visitor, yesterday, he could not help me further as he moved his business to the south side of Atlanta. At least I have his written evaluation. He also noted several homes on my street where the roof's had failed, and I pointed out five phase 1 homes that already had their roof replaced.

          3. User avater
            Dam_inspector | Oct 18, 2009 06:35pm | #10

            Ever think of DIY?That's why a lot of DIYs are out there. It's not always to do stuff haphazardly for cheap, it's to insure the work is properly done. Doing things right takes time, and in general people are very price conscious. They save money getting work done as cheaply as possible, but pay again later. A lot of contractors just give the owners what they want.Plenty of people here would make sure you do the job right if you post pics and ask questions.

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