Hypothetical-
You have a 50 year old 1000 sq ft. ranch that you want to make into 2000 sq ft. You decide to rip off the roof and build a whole new second floor and roof. The only problem is that the first floor has a ceiling height of only 7′ or so. You want to add at least another 10” of ceiling height, and you can’t drop the floor. Is it possible to raise the ceiling up without ripping off the siding/studs? Essentially just building the walls higher? I understand most inspectors/ engineers would never sign off on simply building a foot high wall on top of the existing walls, but I think I remember seeing walls get heightened by adding beams above the top plates with metal strapping to secure them to stop the beam/wall from “hinging”.
An example of this is shown in this article within the illustration on page two, where they added a 10″ LVL beneath the roof rafters- http://www.drmdesign.com/documents/journal-light-construction/jlc-200505B.pdf
Has anyone seen this done on a first floor? The only problem I can envision is running wires/pipes, but that could probably be solved with a couple chases or just utilizing some interior walls more wisely. And the sheathing could be cut down a foot or so in order to get the beam entirely covered/ anchored by a whole piece of sheathing to increase the shear strength. Thoughts?
Replies
Thoughts?
Brings to mind the advice that a contractor friend (who was, we believe, mostly joking) gave to my dad when he was considering fixing up an old farmhouse: Insure it, and then burn it.
Ok. Why?
I'm with you
I think people need to stop asking "Can I do it?" as the 1st question and instead ask "Should I do it?" Invariably, the answer to can I do it is always yes....given enough time, effort and money, you CAN do just about anything you want to. Should you do it? Often a completely different answer.
In this case you are going to be adding a brand new structure on top of one thats how old? and you are going to do that without taking off either interior or exterior finishes to see what structural problems/rot are underneath. You are making a HUGE leap of faith that the guy before you did everything you expect (BTW the guy that though 7 foot was a good ceiling height) AND that it hasn't suffered damage due to water and insects. Plus you are looking at a method to solve your issue that will provide a continuous thermal bridge to the exterior around your entire house. I can't envision a house with seven foot ceilings that would be built in any fashion that would be up to par energy wise for todays world. The time effort and money needed to carefully remove a roof AND raise a ceiling can't offset the benefits of building from scratch (or perhaps from the existing platform.)
This is a very stupid thing to say. If I wanted to get philosophical and ask "Should I do it?", I would have asked that. But I was very obviously asking what would be allowed by code/engineers/inspectors. Past that, I'm really not interested in a stranger's money-burning "over-do the crap of out of everything for no worthwhile reason" building philosophy that runs ultra rampant on this site. I was asking a super simple question that needed a very simple answer that a couple of people were nice enough to actually provide. And their opinions stemmed from actual building experience, making it infinitely more valuable than any conjecture-based reply.
By the way, contrary to what you seem to be insinuating, this "hypothetical situation" is, in reality, a completely hypothetical situation. I don't plan on doing this. I was simply thinking about the idea, literally. There are a ton of very nice houses with large lots where I live, but they are small and would need additions and higher ceilings to really take them to the next level, so I was thinking about whether or not there is a simple way to correct that. That's all.
Window height?
Cuss, I think you are right. Just hearing remove the roof structure, puts a bad taste in my mouth. Think of the labor, the material waste, the mess inside teh house, protection from rain, etc. I know people do it, but as you as ..... should you.
Then discussing raising the wall height with all the interior drywall work, shealthing, siding matching, etc.
Just one more thought as well, what about the window height? This house has a 7 foot ceiling, where are teh tops of the windows? Are they at 6 feet to allow for headers? Do you want to raise the ceiling to 8 feet and have teh window tops at 6 feet? Maybe they are already at 6' 8" like standard doors.
To my, its the equivalent of me buying a new Mercedes and putting it on top of my 94 suburban and hooking up the steering linkage and pedals so i can drive the thing. I could do it.
Ya might be able to cut out the top plates and sister in longer studs every few feet. Then fill in with shorter blocks on top of the existing studs. That would give the wall framing some continuity.
Sure, but if you wanted to secure the new, longer studs to the original sheathing, the siding would have to come off. Plus, you would have to pull all of your wiring in the exterior walls in order to even get all your new studs in. Plus you'd probably have to take out a bunch of sheetrock just so you can get into the wall to secure the new studs to your bottom plate. I'm trying to imagine a way around all of this.
raise the roof
I have done this in Houston. The ceiling & roof were removed and then we built a pony wall on top of the original wall, and proceeded with building the 2nd floor as usual. I do think it costs a little less to tear down the house and build new. You may have a more economical way of building.
Good luck
john
Was this permitted/inspected? Did you need an engineer to sign off on it?
And it seems mathematically impossible that tearing everything down and starting new would be cheaper. Weren't you able to keep the majority of the framing, wiring, sheetrock, flooring and siding? The new roof and second floor would be a wash, the only "added" work would be the pony wall, which is a very minimal cost compared with the aforementioned work you would be able to save.
And it seems mathematically impossible that tearing everything down and starting new would be cheaper.
If one's looking at the OP's situation of a house rather than a garage, and with a second floor to be added, it's hard to see how preserving the structure could be cheaper than tearing it down.
All of the interior drywall/plaster will have to come out, both because a continuous surface will be wanted after adding a foot a the top, and because so many mechanical/electricals will have to be run up through the walls. (And one would likely want to reinsulate anyway.) A goodly part of the exterior siding will have to come off. Likely most of the interior partitions will have to come out, if only because providing room for a stairway will require moving some walls.
If the original house was built with only 7-foot walls, one can bet it was built on the cheap. Likely the floor (both subfloor and floor joists) is shot (or simply undersized) in many areas, and no telling if the studs are even on 16-inch centers vs 24 or 32. Almost certainly new footings will be needed down the middle of the house to support a new load-bearing center wall. So pretty much the whole floor will have to come out.
Taking the house most of the way apart and fixing all the problems will consume an enormous amount of time (and time is money). It's maybe something you'd do if you were retired and wanted a "project", but it could never make economic sense.
If the original house was built with only 7-foot walls, one can bet it was built on the cheap. Likely the floor (both subfloor and floor joists) is shot (or simply undersized) in many areas, and no telling if the studs are even on 16-inch centers vs 24 or 32. Almost certainly new footings will be needed down the middle of the house to support a new load-bearing center wall. So pretty much the whole floor will have to come out.
This entire paragraph alone is so pathetically misinformed I'm in shock. You would do everyone a massive favor by not speaking with the tone of a knowledgable, hands-on, experienced building professional. You strike me far more as a wannabe know-it-all inspector-type than an actual builder. Not to mention your super clever ultra snarky posts, wow. Just let the insecurity go and stop trying to make strangers feel stupid. You might feel better about yourself after awhile.
I'm getting the impression that you don't like me.
I don't. You seem very mean spirited. It's the same messageboard mentality you express that forced me to stop reading the Bridge9 boards when I was 18, and the twoplustwo boards when I was 25. I couldn't take all the unecessary rudeness and fakery. Same reason I only post or read anything on here once every 3 or 4 months, when I feel it might actually be worth it.
But of course, when I do post something, you never seem far behind with some un-helping comment. So thanks for nothing.
Well, I fail to see what was so offensive about the paragraph you quoted.
Nothing was offensive in that particular paragraph besides how wrong it was. But pretty much every other post you've written in response to me has been.
I agree partially, but take a stress pill
Zombie,
I have seen the posts in breaktime where someone tells the DIY he has no busy doing anything for himself, or bragging about something, or makin increbible claims, and some are mean. Personally I have not seen any of that in this thread. Sure some are making assumptions about the nature of the structure you are referring too, but then again you have not provided very many details. So some people make assumptions or are just saying have you looked at XYZ.
Beleive me, I have experienced what you rail against, and perhaps are even a bit hypersensitive to it as well. I think you are really hypersensitive, particularly since I just can't see your complaint.
Nothing wrong with your question. It is interesting to contemplate and see what concerns people have. That is why I started reading the thread.
Have you thought about window heights?
I have no problems envisioning it - I did exactly what you propose in my garage.
My house ia a low slung 1960 SoCal ranch. The garage side walls were only 7' high. I wanted to add height while I was rebuilding the roof (water leak that destroyed 2 rafters).
After I took the entire roof assembly off - with the exception of the ridge beam - I built up a new rim all the way around the top of the existing byusing 2 2x12 boards on edge with a 1/2" sheet of plywood sandwiched between. These were held together with Simpson BC40's with a threaded rod that went through the double top plate through the sandwich. Here is an illustration of what I did:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_8mSyv19H_UY/TSye3ysUrmI/AAAAAAAAAuY/6soHTyxwTMo/s800/Method%20to%20raise%20roofline_2.jpg
Same question- was this permitted/ inspected? Did you need an engineer to sign off on it? Did the inspector give you any trouble over it?
Definitely the identical type of fix I've been thinking of. I haven't met anyone personally who's done it, but it seems to really make sense. Especially now a few people on this board have vouched for it.
I'm in SoCal with seismic requirements, and no I didn't need an engineer to sign off. It's just a simple header, from the load perspective. The bolts and hardware keep it firmly bound to the existing framing. The 3/4" plywood keeps it from hinging.
The 3/4" plywood was a detail I wanted since it was the interior of a garage: I wanted to be able to mount ANYTHING, ANYWHERE!
Since you will already be doing a serious amount of interior drywall, you could simply create a shearwall on the inside with 7/16 OSB or plywood, or use full length studs on the inside as strapping for the new drywall and link the top and bottom with that.
If I was in a cold climate, I might look at using something thinner so i could insulate better, or add a layer of foam to the outside. I used 2x12 lumber because it seemed much easier/quicker than builting a 1' tall pony wall.
I'd want some assurance from an engineer that the existing footings/foundation could handle the new load.
Yes, agreed.
zombie,
I would just ballon frame it and hang the joist off the studs with blocking under them. Have to fireblock also.
KK
Grow up
Hypothetical question to a bunch of strangers on the innernet, and then get angry when one of several things happen:
1) You don't recieve an answer to the exact question you thought you were asking
2) You don't recieve an answer you wanted to hear
3) People interpret your question differently than you thought they would
4) You are chided because some people do not think that this hypothetical would be economically possible in the real world
That post was only directed at DanH, no one else. He knows why I said it, it was deserved. Not so much for anything in this thread, but for his hounding of me on the rare occasion when I do make a post. Beyond that, the only thing I am annoyed by in this thread is the wording of your post. Very almost-correct, which does annoy me.
You know, I didn't even notice it was you until you started bitching.