I will be adding a second floor to a 24X24 freestanding garage next week. I’m using floor trusses, then adding a gambrel roof. The endwall of the second floor will be 24 feet by 10 feet tall. If I build it on the deck and sheath it with 1/2 ply, how many people will it take to safely raise it into place? I tried to find some wall jacks to rent, but was unsuccessful. Would I be better off raising it in sections, or waiting to add the sheathing until it was erected? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
John
Replies
anytime i get close to something like that i call a crane service.125 hr, one hour will do both end walls with no problem. what happens if you get 8 of your buddies over to stand it up,just as you get it plumb a little gust of wind hit's,well evrybody lets go except joe he's still trying to save it,rest of day spent in emergency room.plus all the money you save in beer will pay for crane. two guys can set it ,brace it off with the cables still hooked,on to the next end.it will be the best money you can spend.larry oh and i forgot another plus,with it laying on floor,sheet it, side it,build overhang,fascia,everything's done
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Edited 9/19/2006 11:35 pm by alwaysoverbudget
Solid advice. My crane guy has some large eye-bolts that we run thru 3/4" holes in the top plate. With the sheathing nailed on the walls fly no problem, and two guys can safely get them braced. If it was a first floor deck a few feet of the ground I'd say get four guys.
3 guys max. No crane.
I don't have the keys to success.
I know how to pick the locks.
Stilletto is right. There's a time and place for crane service, but for a 24' wall? No way. Four of us have put up 50'ers without too much effort and I've got a bad back so I probably use my wall jacks more than most guys. But not for a 24' wall.
Just make sure it's hinged to the deck well so it can't scoot out from under you. Use lumber straps or Simpson strapping.
Is it 2x4 or 2x6? If it's 2x4 three guys should handle it no problem. 2x6 and you'll probably want four...... five if you've got a little guy in there somewhere or it's full of headers.
Now I see where "AlwaysOverbudget" gets his nickname. ;)
Now I see where "AlwaysOverbudget" gets his nickname. ;)
LOL, some cranes have minimum charges, $500 just to get the guy in the thing. Not hardly worth it.
I don't have the keys to success.
I know how to pick the locks.
$500?? I've got a $100 minimum for a boom truck here. If I were having him pick second floor walls I would also have him set the rafter stock and roof decking on up as well. Done stuff like this a number of times and it always gives us a nice bump. I don't have or want 4 guys, which is mostly why I use a boom when I need it. I've also set walls on many days when it was way too windy to do safely by hand.
Thanks for the responses. The walls are 2X4, only one header in each wall. I don't think the crane is an option, the travel time to where I am would be prohibitive. I also doubt that I could get a crane back where the garage is. I think the best way for me is going to be with 3 or 4 guys helping.
Thanks for all the input,
John
Kiddoc,Frame the walls without the sheathing and don't worry about it. If you have enough guys to help you that are qualified to frame,sheath and raise the walls safely then do it. Even if you did sheath the walls, you wouldn't need a crane for 24' walls.If you don't there's no sense sheathing the walls and making them heavy without wall jacks for no reason. I frame all walls and never sheath them first and lift them right up, nice and light because I'm used to it and have the man power.Since your not used to doing it, it's lighter and safer for you without the sheathing on and the wall wont blow over on you with any wind.Joe Carola
Edited 9/20/2006 4:45 pm ET by Framer
Thanks, that makes sense.
John
Thanks, that makes sense.
John
I wouldn't be so quick to thank him John. Framer failed to tell you that he doesn't have to sheath his walls because a different crew comes in behind him to sheath the walls for him.
I wouldn't raise a second story wall without the sheathing, then sheath if off ladders and scaffolds for any amount of money.
blue
!!I'M SO CONFUSED!!
Seriously, I think I am going to frame the wall on the deck, and test the weight before sheathing. If I feel we can raise it sheathed with the number of people I can get together, I will sheath it on the deck. Otherwise, I will fit the plywood while the wall is down, but leave it loose and attach after raising the wall.
I'm hoping to have the walls raised within a couple weeks and I'll try to post pictures for your enjoyment (it's always good for a laugh to see people struggling to do what they aren't proficient at).
Thanks for the input,
John
ok so i started the war on cranes,just remember some of these guys frame more walls in a day than me and you will frame ever! but on to suggestion #2 if you are going to stand it up by hand,nail 3-4 2x4 16' upright along the 1st floor end wall,leave maybe 8' sticking up so that when you set the wall,if it gets away from you it will catch and hold.yea yea i know all you pros are laughing your a's off. so flame me for wasting 4 2x4's lol
when your on your ladder [after about the 60th trip up a 20' ladder]nailing sheeting and siding, drop me a note on how you feel about cranes .......still the best 125 i can spend.larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
John,There's nothing to be confused about. Blue only knows one way of framing and would be lost in the real world.We use sheathing crews for houses and I've sheathed countless houses on my own. I sheath all additions that I frame. It's not a big deal. Read my post to David Meiland.It all depends on you.If you feel comfortable enough to sheath the walls and lift them without them being heavy and falling on you then do so.If your not comfortable then DON'T sheath the walls. Raise them when they're nice and light and sheath them later. You don't have to sheath off a ladder. The sheathing crews I use do because they do it every day. When I would sheath I would load the second floors with the sheathing and then just stick them out thorough the bays. It's easy.Blue,Don't make this a who's way is better then who's way or a sheathing walls first and craning them or shetahing walls later war because it aint worth it and it's not fair to John.Joe Carola
Blue,
Don't make this a who's way is better then who's way or a sheathing walls first and craning them or shetahing walls later war because it aint worth it and it's not fair to John.
Joe Carola
Joe, I happen to think that it's really a matter of safety. I wouldn't feel right if I didn't warn John about the dangers of hanging sheathing off ladders, hanging housewrap off ladders and hanging exterior sidings and overhangs off ladders. There have been substantially more people injured, killed, maimed and paralyzed while working on ladders than have been injured while raising small walls.
Neither way is "better" but one way is substantially safer.
blue
"Joe, I happen to think that it's really a matter of safety. I wouldn't feel right if I didn't warn John about the dangers of hanging sheathing off ladders,"Blue,Of course it's a matter of safety. That's all I'm concerned about too.Read my posts again and again to John and Dave and you will realize that the way I told him to sheath is from inside the building. He doesn't do this every day like you and me, so he has to do what's comfortable for him.He can probably take both your way and my way and combine it and make it work."There have been substantially more people injured, killed, maimed and paralyzed while working on ladders than have been injured while raising small walls."
"Neither way is "better" but one way is substantially safer."
For a guy in his position never raising walls before with sheathing on it is very heavy and dangerous and could maim or kill him as you say. I would say that lifting a wall with sheathing on it is more dangerous and could fall on you and maim, paralyze and kill you first compared to nailing off a sheet from a ladder.If a guy doesn't feel comfortable from the ladder, then he can nail the rest of the sheathing off when he sets pump jacks up for the siding. Then he doesn’t have to nail off a ladder once.Why is it that since your trained to think one way and one way only, which is your way that you can’t come up with any other solutions for people?I think its great sheathing gables ends first and raising them if I sheath a house myself, but that’s me I’ll try anything. The framers here don’t tyvek and side the houses. We’re concerned about getting them framed and water tight faster.
I can because I’ve framed different ways and at least try and offer something to someone. I’ll even suggest framing your way or someone else’s way to give that person other ideas and maybe they can pick and choose. You, it’s your way and that’s it no thinking outside the box. You have people maimed, paralyzed and killed already instead of trying to think of something new.Joe Carola
If your going to sheath the walls on the floor, make sure to square them first. Also you want to let the bottom row of plywood lap 1/2 way on the floor joist below. This ties the walls to the floor. Later!Joe this post was intended for the guy building the wall.
Edited 9/21/2006 8:47 am ET by T White
Definitely a good idea to lap the sheathing over the rim/band joists rather than just covering the joist with off-cuts- makes the house a fair bit stronger. But if you do it by leaving a joist's width of sheathing sticking out beyond the bottom plate before you stand the wall, make sure that any overhanging bit of sill plate gasket, crud etc. is completely out of the way before you stand the wall up, otherwise you'll end up with wavy sheathing and some tough choices to make about how to fix it. Don't ask me how I know that!
The tradeoff is that you then need to get your sheathing up a ladder or up on scaffolding. I thought you had sheathing crews out there anyway, to come in behind you.
"The tradeoff is that you then need to get your sheathing up a ladder or up on scaffolding. I thought you had sheathing crews out there anyway, to come in behind you."David,We do have sheathing crews, but you don't have to carry a sheet up a ladder if your not used to it. pass the sheet up to the second floor and stack them there as many as you need then just slide them our in between the studs and one guy grabs one end and the other guy grabs the other end and you nail it up. I've never seen anyone sheath off a scaffolding in my before. There's no need too.Sometimes you slid a sheet up the ladder and someone grabs it above and drops it on top of the tacked spacer nails and that's it.You will have to nail some of the sheathing off from a ladder but it's still safer than framing a heavy wall with plywood on it if your not that experienced to frame that way. People have to learn how to compromise. You don';t always have to sheath walls before they're up and worry about the weight or having wall jacks or even a crane.If someone has a huge wall to frame and they can't get wall jacks and they're worried about lifting the wall than just don't sheath it. Calling in a crane for walls just because it's so heavy because of the sheathing I don't think makes any sense to me.Joe Carola
Some guys around charge an outrageous minimum. Don't know why, maybe high payments on new machines.
My crane guy doesn't charge me a minimum or drive time. Others it's a $150 minimum.
I don't have four guys either, and I don't want to have that many around either.
I don't understand how you could afford a crane to lift walls into place for you. Seems like more hassle than what it's worth.
If I had problems lifting walls I would buy wall jacks and save myself some money. They would easily pay for themselves after a few jobs, and you don't have to schedule them.
As for windy days those become wall framing days and thats it, build walls and stack them up on top of each other and lift them in reverse order when the wind calms down.
Different strokes for different folks man. I never claimed to have all the right answers.
I don't have the keys to success.
I know how to pick the locks.
Prospero's toast at the moment, so I hope this posts OK.
I built my own wall jacks for about $50: each was a piece of UniStrut P1000 channel (available at electrical and mechanical/industrial supply stores). It's a u-shaped channel which accepts positionable spring nut hardware and comes as a system with about a hundred different kinds of brackets etc. I put a cable pulley at the top with a simple through bolt and a stack of washers to keep it centred, and a 500# hand cable winch bolted to the strut at waist height (Princess Auto here in Canada- $10 tops). I bolted a big gate strap hinge to the bottom of the channel and screwed it liberally into a joist. The cable loop was through bolted to the top plates. The backside of the channel rides the top plate the whole way up. Two of these contraptions spaced 4' from each end permitted a lone guy to raise 16' sections of 2x6 sheathed wall solo, with the wall under total control (and me out of harm's way) the whole time. I just walked back and forth between the two winches, raising it by a foot at a time on each side. I toenailed the bottom plate to the deck to keep it under control- recommended practice whatever you do. For a 24' section I'd recommend three jacks.
I'd take a picture for you, but since it was UniStrut I just unbolted everything when I was done and used the UniStrut to make some lumber shelving for my shop.
Every time I've gone out for cranes, they have a transport charge or a 4-hour minimum. Prohibitive to the point of impossible.
Two other possibilities for lifting the wall. Around here, two tree trimming companies do that on the side when they aren't trimming trees...and if you are on good terms with your lumber supplier, many of them have a good sized boom truck and they might do it for you. I have used both of them and it has never cost me more than $150 to do a job such as yours. Lifting them that way is a heck of a lot safer if you don't have experienced people helping you.
A 24' sheeted wall with a barn style roof is pretty darn heavy and quite dangerous if a wind gust ever caught it while you were bracing it.
4 guys who all lift at exactly the same time. If you have a fifth or sixth guy that can help, use them.
Edit: Now I've read the other replies. I say sheathe the wall and lift it with 4 or 5 guys. Don't worry about the wind. Unless it is really window, and you'd know before you lift it right, that it's windy?
What we do is nail a 2x on the outside of each wall so as soon as its up, you've got the angled brace right there ready to nail to the outside of the rim. With 4 guys you've only got how many feet each? 6'x10'? For us we'd use 10' sheathing so I'd be lifting not that much weight. Make sure the wall is nailed at the line on the deck or even run straps if you are concerened. We've never had a wall slide off the deck.
Here is another option if you have or could get a couple extra guys for a minute is to lift the wall up and have someone slide sawhorses under it. That'll give you and extra 3' to reposition yourself.
Don't sheathe this wall off ladders. That is an absolute waste of time. This isn't a big wall.
The wall on the left in this pic is 28' long, 8' tall, with 9' sheathing. 4 guys lifted it no problem. http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/12448759/182984043.jpg
Edited 9/21/2006 9:14 am ET by Timuhler
What we do is nail a 2x on the outside of each wall so as soon as its up, you've got the angled brace right there ready to nail to the outside of the rim. With 4 guys you've only got how many feet each? 6'x10'? For us we'd use 10' sheathing so I'd be lifting not that much weight. Make sure the wall is nailed at the line on the deck or even run straps if you are concerened. We've never had a wall slide off the deck.
Tim, I would suggest that ALL walls be strapped to the deck unless the wall is light enough that the crew can safely lift and carry it. I always used brick ties to strap our walls. Many of those walls had only two straps but many had five or six.
Once the concern of kickout is solved, the next concern is the wall going over. That can easily be solved using cables, chains, ropesthat stop the wall at the correct 90 degree angle, or braces nailed to the outside that the wall bumps up against. The outside braces could be anchored to the top wall or the bottom. I've built teepees on the walls that work great. I've done it every way INCLUDING sheathing the walls later.
I've raised some fairly substantial walls alone (probably the largest was a 32 x 12' garage wall or maybe some rather large gable), using wall jacks and when a guy works alone, he has to make darn sure that all the possibilities are covered.
I know I don't have to explain all this to you, but I did want to alert you to the brick-tie tip. They work excellent and it's easy to keep a handful in your toolbox.
blue
I'd sheath it,strap the bottom plates down, angle braces on the ends. I would also nail a couple L shaped 2 x 4 braces to outsid of wall, 7' nailed on wall and 7' hanging down. When you lift the wall, they stop you at verticle, something the guys lifting might appreciate.
I have no doubts that three guys, especially a lot of the guys here could pick up that wall. I guess when I was young and the testoserone was fired up, me and a couple a guys could do it. The difference is we do it for a living full time.
Your friends are your friends, keep it that way. Have more guys help than you think, there are no second chances in this business.
It probably would have helped it you filled in your profile, maybe someone close to you would let you rent or borrowed the jacks.
Good luck greg in connecticut
Three healthy guys with no back problems.