What size Ramset are you guys using to attach 2x plates over beams? The flange size I seem to see most is around 1/2″ thick so would like to be able to penetate that.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn’t rule the world.
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Will a ramset penetrate 1/2"? I know the big commercial construction guns will, but how about a 27 cal?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I shot my 27 caliber into a mono post, easily with a red load.
I will bet against it shooting through 1/2" steel.
I had a 27 caliber blow up in my hands shooting into a poured wall, so be careful what ever you decide.
I've heard a 25 cal with the hot loads won't penetrate the 1/2". I'm basically trying to find a way of avoiding drilling so many holes in the beam for 2x attachment. It's not for the beam's sake, but more time related.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Epoxy it onto the beam. Make sure the beam is clean and dry then glue it on.
I'm not sure what you are doing, so I am just throwing an idea at you.
We're currently hanging floor joists off a number of w8 x 21 steel beams with 2x6s attached to the top of the beams which the joist hangers are nailed into. The engineer specs 1/4" structural screws 2 each/foot, but we can use a ramset if it will give full penetration of the steel.
Epoxy would probably be agreeable to the engineer, but would surely requiring cleaning the oxidation off the beam down to clean metal, which wouldn't save us any time over the current screw setup.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
What I've seen as a good epoxy adhesion method for metals is to first give the metal surface a good cleaning, then wet it out with unthickened epoxy. While that epoxy is still wet, wet sand the surface. The epoxy will immediately flow into the surface scratches, preventing formation of an oxide layer. After that, do the bond layer.I'd have to guess that wouldn't save you any time. Perhaps this is the perfect excuse to get a portable mag-base drill...did<!---->Cure Diabetes - Death Valley 2006!<!---->
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Would welding the joist hangers onto the beam be any quicker? I guess at this point you would have to change the height of the beam, and that would be a pain.
I would think that cleaning the top of the beam with a 7" grinder and a sanding disk, and then epoxying, would be much quicker than drilling 2 (or is it 4) holes per foot.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
"would think that cleaning the top of the beam with a 7" grinder and a sanding disk, and then epoxying, would be much quicker than drilling 2 (or is it 4) holes per foot."
why so many holes?
it's been about 2 years since I married wood plates to steel beams but it was never anything like that. it was more like 16" oc staggered. we didn't have to drill them either..they were specified and ordered predrilled. which is the way to go. ( but too late for OP at this point)
I seem to recall also using PL in conjuntion with the bolts...but I actually can't remember for sure.
why so many holes?
Engineer specs
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
wow...4 holes per foot...that's some engineer.
like I said ours were spec'd at staggered 16 oc. But who knows what else gets factored in. but for simply holding a plate im place 4 or even 2 holes per foot sure is alot. Then I guess, guys like you and I don't design em we just build em.
It's spec'ed at 2 holes per foot, but the way I originally described it probably wasn't the best.
Engineers are interesting. To get an idea of what they are thinking I've been lurking at engineering sites and find their conversations quite amusing. There is a definite lack of understanding of what most contractors do, especially with the younger engineers or those who only dabble in residential construction projects.
The group that was the most interesting seem to build mostly with steel and concrete so allowing for wood construction was a challenge for them. One said he always specifies steel posts with steel beams simply because it "feels" wrong to support steel with wood. :-)
In a strange twist, our engineer has spec'ed one beam in our current house as 4 lvls giving marginal deflection and we had to ask for a steel beam.
Gotta love 'em, but they are quirky in their own way.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If you run into this situation very often, I would definitely recommend getting one of the electromagnetic attaching drills. It is unbelievably faster than trying to do it freehand with even a HoleHog. The special cutters just zip through Ibeam flanges like butter. I have a case of CRS regarding the one I have, it is similar to the Haugen, I bought it well usued for $200 but really love it. If you do many holes, it will pay for itself in time saving in a reasonably short period of time. I would say this is a great opportunity to blow some of your lunch money for a new tool. How about one of the Milwaukees:http://www.toolbarn.com/product/milwaukee/4270-20/
or one just slightly cheaper
http://www.toolbarn.com/product/milwaukee/4202/
I believe you meant to address that post to Don. I left a job a few years ago where I was drilling lots of steel- I've spent hundreds of hours with a mag drill and a steel hawg bit.
They're fast, but not incredibly fast, especially when the hole size is small. They really excel at large holes (I've drilled 4" holes with them).
Incedently, I saw a Fein mag drill the other day- much lighter (and somewhat lighter duty) than the Milwaukee. Probably not as good as the Mil if you use it a few hours a day on average, but a lot nicer to use for the holes up to 1" or 1 1/2".
Flange punch is the way to go- when I built bridges, that's how all the in-shop fabrication was done. Pops out a slug in just a couple seconds, quicker set up than the mag drill, and no cutting fluid all over.
Edit: by the way, the drill you link to as "slightly cheaper" is the base only, no motor included. The drill head will cost another $300-700, depending on the size. That base is the better unit, and the one that I've used most.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Edited 10/28/2006 8:54 pm by zak
Rent a magnetic drill press if you have to do the holes.
New bits and a can of WD 40
just some more two cents
Even better,New bits and a can of spray cutting oil.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
I have an ancient high velocity Ramset No piston, it fires a breech-loaded nail like a bullet out of the barrel. With the purple loads (max) it'll easily hold a 2x and poke thru a 3/8" web. Can't remember if I ever tried it on 1/2". No more pins available for that thing, and it's been banned by OSHA, suppose when I exhaust my pins and loads it'll become a wall-hanger.
I've got one of those old ramset high velocity guns. Polished exterior and interchangable barrels. Like you say, not OSHA's favorite tool. Got full penetration thru one inch flange with the 32 cal. barrel. Had to br licensed to buy the loads. had to have the gun inspected by a Ramset licensed inspector before they would sellme the loads and pins. Kicked like a mule, but very effective. Like you, still have some loads and pins, keep it lubed and ready, but mostly use the pins as center punches. Jim
hilti with a red load, no problem. they (hilti) even have a purple load, but just finished same application with red loads. Fastest install for wood plate on steel is to shoot it . We have also had the steel supplier punch a series of holes for bolting, more useful when packing out the web. Remember to have plenty of the 1 1/4" sheer nails handy to install your hangers.
It sounds like I need to be looking at a Hilti. What cal. is your Hilti?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"It sounds like I need to be looking at a Hilti."
After you asked, I got out my .27 Hilti yesterday. Rarely do I ever used red loads, as mostly my steel is thinner. So I shot a piece of 1/2" commercial paper cutter. Pin turned into a pretzel.
OK, purple that I got with a bunch of stuff at an auction and didn't figure I'd ever use. Same result.
Hmmm... maybe the steel. Found some that I know is mild, 1/2" thick cutoff from a recent project. Purple, still no go. Yes, the correct pins.
Surprised me. Love the Hilti, but it won't do everything.
Welding on a thinner flange to shoot is what I'd do if pre-drilling isn't available.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
i have a Haugen elec over hyd punch that will knock a 5/8" hole in 3/8" steel in less than 7 second cycle time... looks like a sawzall with a very heavy base... man i love that tool... it came with a base and a foot switch... i design alot of my metal work around being able to punch so many holes so fast.... if what you have is 3/8" you should look for one of these... it's a life saver
p
What's the max edge distance on that hole? I'm used to using the larger punches- capable of a 1" hole through 1 1/8" steel, but they need to suspended on a track from the ceiling.
Your machine sounds interesting.
Have you seen the old mechanical flange punches? put it on the beam, stick a 6' bar in the required socket, and turn the bar 1 revolution, and you've punched your hole. Still heavy as hell though.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
i love my machine... i'd bet way over 10k holes just on my loft project... it will punch about 2" deep (throat depth) has an adjustable stop.... all my balcony rails run horizonal 1/2" round cold rolled 4" o/c punch my corners and center supports and start slide'n in the rails... weld at each hole... each balcony prob has 70-80 holes punched... but man they go together fast once all your stock is cut and the holes punched
p
I try to make sure that all steel gets delivered pre-drilled, but it doesn't always happen that way. When it doesn't and we need a plate on top, we use red Hilti loads and it gets the job done. 1/2" is tough though and I've occasionally found the need to hit a pin with a second load to bury it. Get your safety glasses out.
It's good to know that getting the beam predrilled is an option. It hadn't dawned on us to even ask.
As much as we complain the job only takes 3 minutes/foot, but it's an excuse to upgrade to a bigger gun. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
FYI. My AISC manual of steel construction says that the flange thickness of W8x21 is 3/8" thick, not 1/2" as you are thinking. Could make a differance in your ability to shoot the 2x plate to the WF.
FYI. My AISC manual of steel construction says that the flange thickness of W8x21 is 3/8" thick, not 1/2" as you are thinking.
Our current beam are w8x21, but most beams are a bit beefier. The 3/8" listed in your manual is the thickness at the outer edge? As the flange gets thicker as it aproaches to an inch from the web, even the w821 is near 1/2".
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. True I'm not there looking at the WF as you are. However as a steel detailer in my younger years, I have never seen a WF as you are describing it. If this is a standard W8x21 WF, you should have an area of +/- 2" on each side of the web that is 3/8"thick. What you are describing sounds more like an S shape beam than a WF. You might want to take the time to mic the flange thickness to veryfy your assumpton. The suggestion of having your supplier punch the holes to bolt the nailer is a good idea. This is a common service provided by most steel supplers. Now if you are angling for nice new Hilti stud gun, thats a different story. In any case, good luck.
I'd use RED in my Hilti. Haven't had to do that in six years.
After these thirty posts your probably more confused than when you started.
The bottom line is, don't listen to all these arm chair quarterbacks talking about
grinding, epoxy, $1,000.00 drills etc. Listen to the few guys that do it all the time.
Hilti, red loads, and the right pins. Works every time (usually).
My framers do this on almost every house I build, The last one we were shooting
2x12's to W16x89 beams no problem. And if you don't want to swing for the gun,
almost all the bigger rental shops (i.e. Uninted Rentals) Have the guns and pins
available.
Get it Done!
Josh
You read my mind. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.