Our house is about 9 years old now. The entire house has oak moldings at the floor and around all of the doors. The builder finished the moldings with sanding sealer, stain, and then two coats of lacquer. In the areas of the house where we have tile (kitchen and bath rooms) the finish has already worn off from the cleaners that my wife uses on the floors.
I have a couple of questons, first I would like to try and refinish this with out removing it. I have already added a new cabinet and had to remove some trim, and it is not easy to do without tearing up the wall and having to patch and re-paint. I have tried a small section, using scotch-brite pads, to sand it, and have had good luck matching the color. I finished it with a water based poly.
Do you think that this is feasable to do this with out removing it ( about 100 lineal feet), and is a water based poly (less fumes) a good way to go?
Thanks, Mike
Replies
I think before anyone can begin to offer advice, we need to know if the lacquer that was applied is nitro or cat-lacquer.
It was just nitro.We are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
I will graciously ask to expand this thread a bit, or perhaps it is just one simple question.
What is typical for finish work, to stain and finsih all door, window, and basboard trim and perhaps even doors jams, before installation or after it is nailed up.
I have the impression that many people are finishing it after it is nailed up. If so is that after the walls are already painted? Isn't that a problem with getting stain on a painted wall?
Stupid question?
JR, no problem expanding the thread. In my case the builder prefinished the moldings before they were installed. There was some touchup after installation, but with it being lacquer it was easy to do and blend in, this would be tough with a poly finish.
My plan was to tape off the molding (like when you would paint only on the wall instead of on the molding). I do some woodwording and have had good luck with wipe on poly's so that is what I was thinking of using.
MikeWe are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
I have heard of people installing woodwork and finishing it in place and that just seems like it would be a mess, but then again there must be some reason for people to do it that way. I suppose one reason might be to putty all nail holes before finishing. However, I think you can match putty / sticks to the finish just fine after the fact.
Secondly, it is interesting that you mention wipe on polys. I too have liked them and have had some trouble with the brushed on stuff with brush marks and rasied streaks. I am sure my technique stinks.
Do you find the wipe on polys to be as durable? Would you use it on a table top, or end tables, etc?
JR, I have used the wipe on poly on some cherry coffee and end tables that I built. SO far it is holding up well, but it took several coats (five) to get the buildup that I thought I needed. Even at five coats it is not as thick as say two brushed on coats. Then on top of that I used a good paste furniture wax. We are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
Mike,
I'll bet that about now you wish the builder had chosen a more appropriate finish for a bathroom environment. And since I can't see the wood and situation firsthand, it's kinda hard to make final determinations as to what might be the most promising approach to the desired end result.
But one thing that does concern me is the high possibility that the surface of the wood is contaminated with residues from the household cleaners that helped remove the nitro finish (or perhaps other residues as well) and that these residues may cause bonding failure of the new finish. And so, I guess if it was me, I'd be considering first cleaning the surface with some TSP and then rinsing very well. Done cautiously, you should be able to get this done without getting the wood saturated. Nonetheless, you'll need to be certain things are dried out before you proceed on to any color matching efforts and finishing. And if any wood grain should get raised, you'll probably want to sand it back down.
While if in a different room or situation, I would agree with RW about laying some more nitro, it seems in this instance that you'd just be guaranteeing the same problem in the future. And so, I'm gonna vote for something tougher and more suitable. Besides that Kem Aqua, you might want to also look at Fuhr's 3200 Acrylic Urethane Wipe-On Seal & Finish. Not cheap by any means, but is also a very rugged finish with excellent bonding characteristics…..and it's in the wipe-on format that you seem to be wanting. Scuff sanding the existing finish may not be necessary at all with this product or at the least, may not be as critical as with some other products.
http://www.waterbornefinishes.com
Doesn't surprise me to hear that you've had mixed results brushing a water-borne. I think all of us have at one time or another. Brush application of the numerous water-borne finishes on the market can be problematic to say the least. Not all of them are created equal as regards the surfactants and defoaming agents, but all of them are temperature and humidity sensitive when it comes to flow-out and drying times. Most of the wipe-on water-borne finishes shouldn't be applied by brush as excessive foaming will result. Even those finishes formulated for brush application should be applied as thin coats….just like a wipe-on. Temps below 65F should always be avoided because it usually impedes smooth flow-out. If humidity is high, the dry time can be too extended leaving the finish vulnerable to airborne dust and more airflow will need to be established as a remedy. If temps are too high or conditions too dry, some distilled water may need to be added to achieve flow-out. Or sometimes the manufacturer will have a solvent available that they recommend. And needless to say, application outside in the sun or windy conditions isn't recommended or advisable.
The bestest, easiest and most predictable results with water-borne finishes are most always achieved by spray application.
I'm sure I needn't remind you, but...........don't use any steel wool in the preparation of the surface and leave any strands behind. They'll rust under the water-borne. Best to avoid it altogether with WBs.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 11/10/2003 9:56:32 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Goldhiller, thanks for the response. I have a question about the Fuhr's 3200 Acrylic Urethane Wipe-On Seal & Finish. I have a section where part of the base board is fine, next to a wood floor, and then changes to tile and that is where the problem starts. Do I need to get all of the lacquer off of the good part or can the Fuhr's 3200 Acrylic Urethane Wipe-On Seal & Finish go over the top? I have seen time when using a poly over a lacquer will cause an "orange peel" effect.
I do know better than to use the steel wool, but I probably should take the time to clean it all with TSP. I am really not sure what all my wife has used to clean with over the years and don't want to take the chance and have to strip off a new finish coat.
I checked out the link and I really didn't think that the Fuhr's was all that expensive. Do you know of any stores that carry this product, or is it only available through mail order?
Thanks, Mike We are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
Mike,
By expensive, I just meant comparatively speaking to other readily available common finishes. Some folks are exceedingly price conscious about such things. Evidently, you're not one of them. :-)
I'm gonna suspect that the orange peel effect you saw may well have been related to the WB not flowing out properly and/or drying too fast, but if you want to be cautious, I'd suggest that you brush on a seal coat of Zinnser's SealCoat (dewaxed shellac) prior to the WB where there's existing nitro. Or you could just remove the nitro with some lacquer thinner. Nitro removes easily and inexpensively with cheap hardware store brands of lacquer thinner.
SealCoat should be readily available at a building center/big boxer store. Brush application should work fine so long as you're not fighting with silicone contamination. It shouldn't take you all that long and will give an extra measure of "security" as regards compatibility. But anywhere that silicone contamination is possible warrants heads-up thinking and responses. By that I mean don't dip your brush directly into your supply can. Pour off an amount into a secondary container and dip only into that container. (A glass or plastic container would be the recommended.) Otherwise you could be picking up silicone in the brush and contaminating the entire supply.
Unfortunately, there's no "pre-test" for silicone contamination. One either has pre-knowledge/suspicion of it's presence or finds out the hard way.......fish-eye craters and the like appear as you apply your topcoats. If that happens as you apply your finish, you're in for spraying a few dustcoats of the shellac as a barrier coat. I usually just promptly remove the affected finish and start over with the dustcoats and build from there. Leaving the cratered finish and shooting over the top with the SC is possible, but you're in for a bigger fight to fill those craters with the final finish coats. Brush application doesn't cut it if trying to seal down sili-contam because you'll drag some of the silicone back up onto the surface rather than sealing it down under that shellac. Much cursing will follow.
I'm pretty sure that the SC is available in aerosol cans, too. That could simplify things for you no matter the reason you'd need/want to put down some SC.
I have no source locally around here to buy anything but the most common of finishes except for our local Sherwin-Williams (they do have some excellent finishes) and so I'm accustomed to mail ordering alot of stuff or driving 40 miles one way to the nearest sources. Consequently I wouldn't know where to point you in your search for a local supplier. Maybe you could contact Fuhr and ask them if there's a local distributor.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
One more thing.........no one's been using any silicone-bearing furniture/woodwork polishes, have they?
If so, now's the time to fess up as that would require a through TSP cleaning and one or more sprayed coats of dewaxed shellac prior to attempts to lay any more of any type of finish.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
You have gotten good advice here, but another site you might want to check is woodweb.com and go to the finishing forum. There are some questions and answers almost identical to yours in the archives there, I think they call it the knowledge base or something. More info on finising there than you can use, also some good supplier links.
A reply to both thoughts
You can finish it on the wall. This is typical, and near as I can tell, preferred by everyone around here. I certainly prefer it that way. In new construction, the stain and lacquer gets on everything, and it's shot first. When you walk in to a house at this stage, you've got stain and lacquer several inches up the wall from the baseboards. Not really an issue. Trim is easy to mask from the wall.
I don't think I'd lean on a poly over lacquer. I'd stay in the same family at the least. If it was nitro, you can shoot right on top of it and the additional coats should burn right in. If it was precat, then you need to scuff everything or you will not get good adhesion. If that's the case, you might try CAB acrylic lacquers. They're non yellowing and very durable. Not typically used for trim, but it's on your kitchen cabinets, so if you want durable, why not. If you're sold on the waterborne idea, I've fallen in love with Sherwins Kem Aqua waterborne lacquer. That is some durable stuff. And yes, it sticks to darn near everything. Wet, you can clean it off with a wet rag or maybe a little alcohol. Cured, get out the chipping hammer. I had the stuff on my glasses for weeks before I could get it all off. I still have speckles on my watch face from over a month ago.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
RW, thanks for the response. I wouldn't mind going with a lacquer again as long as I can find something that is very tough. I don't want to do this again in another 8 years. I think that if I stay with a lacquer I would have less adhesive problems.
I think that I will have to clean it forst with TSP. I don't know what all my wife has used over the years to claen with and I don't want to have to do this again.
Thanks , MikeWe are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett