RE Rentals: What % on investment is OK?
Hudson Valley Carpenter
| Posted in Business on
I’m looking at building a duplex next year. I’ve only been a landlord for one year, once, so I don’t know much about return on investment. What net percentage figure is acceptable, annually? What’s a good aim? What’s exceptionally good?
Edited 9/7/2009 11:33 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Replies
Bump.
I'd like to know also.
I've only been a landlord for about 11 months. Good tenants, no bother, been late a few months - but paid up asap and with the late fee.
Rent we are getting = mortgage, property insurance, bus. liabilty insurance for us, all taxes plus a slush fund for any repairs. We get all of the mortgage interest and depreciation tax deductions plus the ability to write off any repair expenses we incur.
Our tenants are buying our retirement home for us and decreasing our current taxes at the same time.
% RTOI? I don't know.
Jim
Thanks for including your equation and how it's working for you, with the bump. :-)
In the past I've heard that the monthly rent should net the owner one percent or better (12% annually), assuming no mortgage. I'm aiming for double that, expecting one and one half percent at a minimum (18% annually). That's from one building, two units.
Of course there's a lot more to it than a simple figure like that can indicate. How it's arrived at is more important to know and apply correctly.
I was gonna say 12% off the top of my head...ALL inclusive.
I'd aim for 20% - 30%.
My stuff get's alittle fuzzy being remod. cont. and landlord. Shades of grey and all...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I was gonna say 12% off the top of my head...ALL inclusive.
Meaning net profit after property taxes, insurance and mortgage payment?
I excluded the mortgage payment because they vary so much, according to interest rates and term.
you can aim for 30% ,and if you get it and theres more to be bought let me know ,i'm in.
what should the roi be? big question,most of it comes down to what you want it to be, but if your looking for much over 12,the deals going to have to be pretty special.
when i first buy a property in todays market i'm ok with somewhere in the 6-10% area. now as i own that a little longer ,rents go up, i may break into that 12% area. and thats very acceptable.
as far as roi the longer you hold the better it will get. i have one with a couple thousand down 30 yrs ago returning 7k a year. so if you look at just roi thats in the 300+%.
but if you look at it's market value, 52k,there you are back in that 12 range again.
something thats really going to affect that return is ,vacancies ,maintenance,and the stuff happens items. i always look at 10% vacancies. when i first started i thought that figure was to high,but you take a house over a long period of say 10 years,you'll probably have 7 tenants with time between each,so it's pretty close.maintanece i also figure at 10,if it's a new place that will be high,if it's 60 years old ,won't touch it.
trying to set a roi as a level that you should reach is really tough,figure what your investment in it will be,what it will net you after all the cost and decide what your time is worth on a sunday afternoon driving over and showing it,and see if your happy with the net profit. then see what your making roi and if it's less than a cd,id go the cd.the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Kinda meaning ROI. If I aim for 20 or 30 as a rough start , it'll usually settle in around 12ish... If I was aiming for a start of 12 it'd prolly just maintain itself enough to just keep me busy...
There are soooo many variables, as the others have said. Vacancies, quality or renters, location, too many....Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Thanks, that helps. Sounds like we're all thinkin' about the same goals. Aim for 20-30% net with the understanding that something less is still a lot better ROI than anything else we have in view.
It really depends on how you structure you deal. I always have bought "fixers" with cash, fixed them with cash and then refinanced and pulled all my money out so I had no actual money in them. So my income + tax advantages equal (total) but how to call that a percentage is tough to figure.
I frankly have always set a number that I felt I needed to make over and above payment/taxes/insurance and as long as we were there or better that was a good day. If I wanted to put my money in them I could certainly increase the income profit percentage and then maybe assign a percentage to it. Although I want a positive cash flow the tax advantage to me is the most important thing. Sorry but no real firm guidelines here. DanT
Im in the mix of Dan T and Larry.
Larry gets into some detail and sets up the why DanT was talking about . LOL.
You have to go by gut feelings first. Theres no set percentage sorry. Just like all wimmen dont look the same . Some have features missing on others. If you wanted the highest cap rate you can buy 100 year old places and have exellent numbers then. Trouble is the numbers wont improve.
Figgure these two at you imagination and see for yourself :
100 year old two story house that some people would say needs torn down. It will make two apartments or a boarding house . The boarding house will make the most money with the most time involved.
Now lets take a new duplex. I talked about this in another thread already. That property wont devalue if the location is a needy one like a college . They dont make more land around a college . Its alright if it breaks even to start becuase it will make more down the stretch with no matinence . It will always sell for top money. It can always rent to top renters , or daddys , or how ever you want to rent them. I normally leased to parents and called them when the kid was acting up. Daddy has the money to pay for the damages. And so on. Meanwhile they are paying off a 15 yr note .
I normally pick somthing in the middle to higher end of the comparision that makes a couple hundred a month while I dont have money in it . What difference does it make to me what percent it is ? I didnt have the money to start with in it and so there was no return. Now there is .
DanT once said ; "You can make real estate do any thing you want it to do. "
You have to figgure out what you want it to do.
When you get that figgured out you have to see if it works or what it will take for YOU to be happy.
If I was gonna tell you where to go hunting and I didnt have to go I could tell you lots of places . If Im gonna have to walk with you Ill be a lot more selective . <G>
Dont go on what we say. YOu have to be happy. How much is it gonna take ? Theres an old saying of being married to rentals . Youre the guy getting married to what youll buy, not me .
Tim
Tim,
Thanks for the education. Even when you ramble, your collected wisdom gets through. :-)
My thinking is: I'm selling one property to finance the next one, to be built on property I've owned for many years, planning for this time in life. The duplex should return 20%-30% net annually on the cost of building. That's realistic according to rentals currently listed in the area.
The only option I have is to build a single family home, live in it as our primary residence for two years (without income from it of course) then sell it, having gained tax free status on capitial gains.
The advantage to the duplex is pretty obvious. In two years it earns back enough to negate the tax free advantage and then some, even if we occupy one of the units.
During the first year after completion of the duplex, I build a new single family home on the adjacent property. We then move into that home and live there for two years, using the income from the duplex to pay the mortgage and as reasonable retirement income.
Next I build a new home on another property I own, as a permanent retirement home. The qualified tax free home we've been living in is sold, leaving us with healthy net profit, a paid off retirement home and a duplex which earns us enough to allow a lot of options for travel and other adventures. The healthy net profit offers us the opportunity for other business ventures, investments or whatever interests us.
Of course the duplex can be sold any time, should owning it become a burden, but with an annual net income of over 20% on that investment, I don't believe I'd want to sell.
Do you see any mis-steps in my thinking? How would you improve on it?
I dont have any idea what its like living with your wife. Only you do.
You just said what you wanted to do. How could I advise differently?
This is not like building somthing and asking what we think.
What do you think about me adopting 10 kids?
Would you advise it or disadvise?
All I know is rentals is an exellent investment for somone in the trades.
Anytime you can build a home to live in for two years and sell it your doing the dream. All carpenters have that dream.
Tim
I dont have any idea what its like living with your wife. Only you do.
How'd my DW get into this discussion? LOL. I assume you're using that example to make the point that life is unpredictable and that it's difficult to judge how things will work out, from a distance. On that, we certainly agree...with or without the wives. ;-)
I presented my financial plan, asking if you could see where I might be missing something. Of course I'll consult with an accountant about it before I proceed but it would be helpful to know if I'm not seeing something which only an experienced landlord like you could predict.
All I know is rentals is an exellent investment for somone in the trades.
That's what it comes down to. I appreciate the strong endorsement.
Anytime you can build a home to live in for two years and sell it your doing the dream. All carpenters have that dream.
That has been my plan for many years. I've acquired the building lots to do three houses, all in excellent locations with great features.
The credit crunch changed that plan. Building a duplex fits my current situation and the housing market too.
Therefore, in theory, it all makes sense to me. But my experience with buying and selling and renting real estate is elementary so I'm asking how it looks from others' perspectives.
Living with your wife is like would you like farming ? Not all would like it and some would .
This depends on whether you want to be married to rentals. How your set up to handle it .
As was mentioned earliar we expect money from the get go but not all people feel that way. So its up to you. Budget mentioned percentages that are pretty close . But I dont pay attention to percentages. Every deal has to be looked at separate. On new duplexes you dont have to make money then because they will pay off in 15 years and pay you for 30 more years. Unless you need money now then you change the plan to suit you . Nothing about it is gonna suit you if you arent ready to be a landlord. Dont over look that . Takes a different person than normal .
After you take a few destructive hits we will see if youre still happy.
Edited 9/8/2009 8:25 pm by Mooney
Depends. I have 6 units right now that are getting hammered by taxes. Once i get the taxes worked out, i'll probably make (averaged) $100/unit.
Not really worth it, but I will say I learned alot from them. First lesson being that I need to make at least $350/unit to do SFR again. If I could buy anything I wanted, it would be at least duplexes. Much better ROI. My duplex flows about $400 even with the taxes messed up.
I'm also working on deal right now, its a SFR in a bad neighborhood but i'd be all in for under 12k and i'd get my money back in two - three years. Thats great ROI but it comes with alot of ifs, like I said its in a bad area but its dirt cheap, as long as I can rent it I should be fine.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
12k can get you something in Warren now?
How bad is bad?
Are the renters in 12k homes paying themselves or are they state subsidized?
The true answer has been hinted at here but not put plainly.
Your ROI has to be more than on your next best alternative and only you will know what that is
Well the way the stock market has been acting, everyone should coonsider building a duplex as a fall back home and producer of basic retirement income.
That's a part of my consideration; a place to live where, should everything else turn brown, someone else pays the property taxes, etc. and provides enough to supplement my meager Social Security.
Considering the possible future problems with SS, rental income may have to take it's place entirely.
Your ROI has to be more than on your next best alternative.
While I can't say that I've explored all the alternatives, this is the one that I'm best able to exploit.
I'd be happier building primary residences, living in them for the required two years, then selling them tax free but who knows when that scenario will work in the way that we'd all like it too?
That...building spec homes to live in and sell, using the capital gains exclusion...had been my long term goal for many years. I've acquired three fine building lots for that purpose but the possibility of making that plan work well isn't in the cards, not until the housing market regains it's footing.
Any time I've invested in something, knowing that it had to be sold in a certain time frame, I've put myself in a bind, a rather uncomfortable bind. I don't intend to do that again.
Well then you need to gauge your return off something historical. Most averages show the stock market gaining between 10%-12% over the long term. Given that, the next thing you have to do separate out what is INVESTMENT from what is cost.If your duplex costs you $160,000 to build and you are out of pocket 20% of that for the down payment on the mortgage, then you're out of pocket $32,000. That means you have to earn $3840 per year to return 12% or $320 per month on top of the mortgage payment, taxes, insurance, repairs etc etc etc. The tricky part is can you get enough rent to cover all the expenses and the mortgage and your 12% return. If you can't, then you are going to be investing additional funds each month to cover the shortfall on the mortgage (its just easiest to think of the shortfall as being on the mortgage.) You may well be short several $100 per month when you are only renting 1/2 of the duplex and living in the other but you should be able to get a higher return on your investment when you are renting both sides. For sake of simplicity, I would just assume that you won't have any residual value in the property over and above your initial down payment. That would simply boost your return when and if you sell it for more than your down payment.If you want to be more accurate you could assume a sale at the end of the mortgage for the full cost of $160,000 giving you and additional $128,000 return say 30 years in the future (assuming the full mortgage is paid by the renter). You would then need to Present value that cash flows. Getting #128,000 back in 30 years is worth $16000 at 7%.If you are confident in that scenario (selling in 30 years for the total cost to build) then you could subtract the PV from your current investment Leaving you with an investment of about 1/2 what I initial said or about $16000 with the corresponding needed monthly return on investment also being 1/2.The problem with this approach is that you are laying out $32,000 now to get back $16000 in value later (you'll also get back about $4,000 PV for the $32000 initial investment) so if you lower your return based on this distant return, you'll lower your current cash flow.In the end, it sounds as if you are more concerned here about cash flows anyway so you may opt to focus on that and push ROI to the background.
> That means you have to earn $3840 per year to return 12% or $320 per month on top of the mortgage payment, taxes, insurance, repairs etc etc etc.But the principal amount in your mortgage payment should be counted as part of your return -- part of that 12%.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
You don't count the principle amount in the mortgage as return until you actually realize it which is 30 years into the future when you sell it (or whatever time frame you pick). that is why you have to find the present value of that future payment because money in the future isn't worth as much as money today. Even if your tenants pay $1,000 on your principle this month, it isn't yours until you cash it out by selling. In effect, your tenants are simply investing money on your behalf for a later return.
Edited 9/10/2009 9:23 am ET by cussnu2
At some place on the balance sheet, the paydown of the principal will be accounted for.
If the OP is calculating the ROI and focusing on cashflow, then the paydown doesn't matter. If the OP is calculating the ROI and focusing on net worth, then it does matter.
If the OP is calculating the ROI and focusing on cashflow, then the paydown doesn't matter.
Old Opey here will be investing money from the sale of another home so, as fascinating as the mortgage math may be, he ain't too concerned with that aspect, this time around.
The current credit crunch requires that anyone wishing to borrow to build a new home have a variety of prerequisites on his application. One of them is documented income, a more restrictive term than the old "cash flow" we all worked with for decades. As a retired guy living on SS, I can't borrow diddly right now even though my credit history is spotless and my equity position is excellent.
I'm after some serious documented income with this project, so that I'll be able to borrow to build my next project, a new primary residence. With that kind of cash flow, I'll be able to hold onto new home until such time as the housing market makes it profitable to sell and build another one. That will give me two years to qualify for the capital gains exclusion too.
Edited 9/10/2009 11:51 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I have a book that explains all the various ways of calculating Roi and other real estate calcs. It's an entire book dedicated to just that. It's not an uncomplicated subject LOL.
If I run across the book, I'll post the name. Were doing a garage sale thing and I think I'll see the box of books soon.
Sure, post the name if you find it. I'm sure that it'll be of interest to someone. Me, probably not so much.
BTW, years ago I asked my banker to explain the "rule of seventy-whatever" that's supposedly used to calculate the amount of principal and interest in each mortgage payment. He embarrassed himself badly, trying to remember how it worked. :-)
A big part of your return will depend on your buying and marketing and the amount of devoted labor on your part.
We discussed that in the other thread. I cant do a lot on new construction but I can do it all on remodeling . I dont know how youre swingin but if you have to hire out most of te building you just investing the money and not so much the time . In other words youre not gaining a double lick.
Yall can talk about returns all day long and it wont buy a cup of coffee . You have to be in cheap and have a product to sell high. Its the only way it works . You cant set a standard because theres so many variables to different properties. One thing you can do is invest a lot of labor and steal this keeping the costs low as possible .
I cant build as cheap as I can buy and its been that way for several years. I would be fighting to make a percentage on a new duplex compared to my buying power of repos. I can buy at 60 cents on the dollar right now pretty easy. But theres work involved. So you might say my percentage could be 40 percent . But it isnt because theres too may factors. I do have some at 30 percent rolling along. But I got them there. It wasnt a gift .
Tim
Thanks again Tim,
You always seem to make good sense out of these kind of rental discussions. When I get closer to making a decision I'll have better questions to ask you.
Right now it's hard to say what the cost to build and the annual costs of ownership will be so I need to research that before I'll be able to compare potential RE investment ideas.
Edited 9/10/2009 3:23 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It's money you're putting in the bank -- equity. It should not be counted as expense (though you should figure your ROI based on your total equity).Of course it's true that markets can "adjust" your equity up or down, but that "adjustment" applies to your down payment just as much as your principal payments -- they're effectively the same "bucket".
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
ROI is present value of future cash inflows divided by investment (also present valued if the investment is done over time rather than lump sum at the beginning). Payment on principal isn't a cash flow to you until you realize it IN CASH at the sale at some future date.
The way you are looking at is that you are getting $1000 from the renter which is true but the part you are missing is that you are INVESTING that $1000 back into your project just like you invested the initial downpayment. The effect is a net 0 impact on ROI because 1000/1000 is going to be 1 always. You can feel free to schedule it out on a spread sheet and show the $1000 as income and then show the $1000 as additional investment and it won't have any impact UNTIL you sell the project at the end and realize the discounted cash flow 30 years in the future (or whatever date you choose.) You'll get the same answer for ROI by including both sides of the pricipal payment (the cash flow in from the renter and the cash flow out as additional investment) as you will if you ignore it.
When calculating "net worth", people can and do include unrealized gains in their net worth (which is what your pricipal payments are...unrealized gains) but you can't include unrealized gains in ROI because they aren't returning cash flows until they are actually realized.
You're equity is returning cash flow.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
"When calculating "net worth", people can and do include unrealized gains in their net worth (which is what your pricipal payments are...unrealized gains) but you can't include unrealized gains in ROI because they aren't returning cash flows until they are actually realized."
Thats correct but I know . Thats why I dont pay special attention to it . You get 15 properties paying it in every month at a rate thats greater than salary, you pay attention to it . Makes you want to go out and get another one . Makes you feel better about retirement .
I appreciate your reasoning and all the math.
I don't intend to live in the duplex but it's an option which I like having. As I'm retired from contracting, I'd be more likely to live in a less valuable home in a more remote location, rather than lose the income from either of those units.
In fact it's my plan to build the duplex first, then a single family home to live in on the adjacent lot. That primary residence is meant to be sold after a few years, when it has qualified for the capital gains exlusion and market conditions are more favorable, in order to pay off it's own mortgage and to provide funds for another primary home, in the more remote location I mentioned.
Part of the goal of owning the duplex is for the evidence of documented income now required by lenders, so that mortgage money will be available to me, no matter how tight the credit market is.
Edited 9/10/2009 4:06 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
If you are financing, I would want to make 21%. If it's an all cash investment even 10% wouldn't be bad and 16% on all cash I think is great.
I've seen the big city guys use this equation for ROI for rentals: (Yearly rent, divided by 2,) over the purchase price of the property.
If you get $12k in rent a year on a place that cost you $100k your return would be 6%.
Thanks.