Re-roof: Drip edges and step flashing
Problem 1: I recently received several quotes for re-roofing a hip roof in the Birmingham, AL area. I noticed after a quick scan of the “Roofing with Asphalt Shingles”, Taunton Product #070602, that most roofs show some type of metal drip edge. The roofing companies in this area seemed somewhat reluctant to provide the drip edge, though I requested it for the estimates. One company indicated they install an asphalt roll of weather shield/ storm guard along the bottom perimeter of the roof. They said since the roll would slightly overhang the roof sheathing, there would be no need for a drip edge. I noticed the book indicates waterproof shingle underlayment to prevent ice-dam leakage (along with a drip edge). Of course, ice-dams are not a problem in the Southeast.
I have seen from the attic, moisture on the inside face of the fascia boards during a heavy rainstorm. This could have been a gutter back-up, but there was no later evidence of this. This is why I was thinking a drip edge was necessary. Also, I don’t need additional ventilation (i.e., vented drip edge).
Should I accept the bids with waterproof shingle underlayment alone, drip edge alone, or request both?
Problem 2: Most roofs in our area that have been re-roofed used step-flashing over the top of wood or masonite siding at vertical intersections like the chimney. The flashing generally appears to be well-caulked, installed, etc. until a few years later, when the chimney begins to show signs of rotting.
Is it best to have the siding removed and later re-installed to allow under-flashing, or are there other detailing options that would ensure a long-term, leak-proof re-roofing project at the intersection?
Thanks so much for any insight you can provide!
Replies
I would suggest that any quote you get has the drip edge and the Ice and Water barrier. It's just the way it should be done. As for step flashing, if money is not much of a concern, remove the siding and flash it, then re-install the siding. I would even go so far as to install some ice and water along the length before flashing while the siding is off.
Roof Drip,
Perhaps things are different in the south,
but up here-------- I don't think I would even consider a contractor that wasn't going to install new drip edge as part of a complete tear-off.
the only possible exception I can think of----would be an older home with a bell-cast roof( flaring curving gables)----- just about impossible to get straight drip edge installed along a curve without it looking cheesey. that shouldn't be a factor on your hip roof ,however.
the icegaurd----- i would go ahead and use it---- because I always use it------ but perhaps things are different down there ???
Regaurding Step flashing------- almost ALWAYS I can get step flashing under existing siding without removing the existing siding----- so that shouldn't be a problem either.
Stephen
Haz-
bell-cast roof( flaring curving gables)-----
You have a pic handy of this?
Thankswhen in doubt add garlic
Rez,
I don't have a picture handy-----and if I did, unfortuneately I am not smart enough to know how to post it-----being incredibly computer inept and a bit of a luddite
sometimes those bellcast roofs here are referred to as a "kick"
I HAVE however bought a digital camera and have been collecting pictures since august that I hope oneday to learn to post here.
Hoping in December when my oldest son is home from college he can tutor me on this---- or when my highschool senior and I both have a spare afternoon on the same day--he can help me out( highschool senior is auditioning for about 4 or 5 college music programs---so he doesn't have a lot of free time between highschool, working 27 hours a week and preparing for auditions.
I DO have a lot of pictures I want to post eventually----- one set is a huge roof we did, high( 3-3 1/2 stories) and steep( 17/12 ?)-- layer of asphalt shingles over slate---tear of and re-roof---------- 2 "semi" turrets"
another set is some pictures of a large (140 square) church I did a while ago
another set is MY house that we bought a year and a half ago that I am slowly working on( 3700 square feet, 2 fireplaces( one with hand made moravian tile surround), walnut woodwork,walnut wainscoat, oak floors , 4 bathrooms, 4 bedrooms, library,terrazo floor in basement, blah,blah,blah-------- it will be a 20 year labor of love
another set is a box gutter on a customers house that I am currently re-lining( 2 days to go!!!!!!!!!, economics necessitate EPDM--- it's not nearly in Grants' or Walters' league
also went out one sunday morning on one of my favorite bicycle routes and took pictures so y'all could see what the center of the universe---Akron,Ohio looks like .LOL
all coming---maybe in December.
Stephen
View Image
Hey, I'm a fine citizen and a valuable contributer.
Burp, i mean Bump. Excuse me.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
I do have a picture of a pitch change, w/o the curve handy. I can dig up a pic w/ curved drip edge if yer patient and remind me.
But I can't post pics at thistime.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
It is not possible to properly flash a wall to keep water out without having it under both the siding and the tarpaper( opr housewrap) behind it.
I disdain roofers who do not use a drip edge. Not only does this allow water to enter behind the fascia and cause rot, but at anytime that a ladder is placed against the edge to climb on the roof in the future, the shingles at that point are broken.
It seems to be mostly in southern states of GA, Carolina, and Alabama that this practice of ignoring the drip edge occours, and the most oft reason i hear is the expense, so when you are willing to pay for a quality job, there is absolutely no reason for skipping this detail.
Unless you are looking for leaded copper in a custom size, it shouldn't set you back more than about ten bucks per squarte additional.
Another thing to watch out for though - if they typically do not do this and are trying to avoid using it - yopu want to know iuf they are even capapble of installing it. There is not much that can make a new roof look worse than poorly installed drip edge.
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To your question about getting the step flashing behind the siding...do not allow your roof to be redone without making absolutely certain it is behind the siding (along with felt/I&W).
My parents recently had their roof redone as a result of two nasty hail storms that came through the northern Minneapolis suburbs in the last year. All sorts of storm chasers coming in and getting insurance companies to payout for new roofs. Many of them are being done by underskilled (is that a word?) crews. Of course they did not want to trouble me with grilling the company rep or stopping by during the reroof.
Where the garage meets the house was not done properly (siding was not removed/underlayment not turned up the sidewall) and guess what happened in the next storm...the entry way was turned into a swimming pool. So now they are dealing with another insurance claim trying to get the house back to normal.
Those guys are called hail hounds when they're chasing storms and insurance companies, drunks when they aren't.
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I don't know if birmingham needs it but Charlotte, NC I never used or kneew anyone who used ice and water shield under asphalt unless it was a dead valley. Just don't see the need that far south. NC didn't use drip edgebut I think any roof needs it. Some in NC were using a one-piece aluminum fascia, no drip No flashing I know is ever ran behind housewrap, at least in NW Florida for the last 10 years.
Edited 11/6/2006 10:07 pm ET by catfish
Hi,
I'm the guy who wrote "Roofing with Asphalt Shingles" for Taunton.
You've already received some good solid advice from other BT'ers. Here's my quick overview:
1 Use drip edge along the eave edge AND along rake edges. Ask any of your bidders which brand of shingle they intend to use and then check online for that company's installation instructions. Every US manufacturer I know of and most Canadian specify drip edges. Not using them may void the shingle warrantee if there is any problem with shingles along the edges. One thing I've found dealing with contractors is if they are willing to listen to an owner's request and honor it - they are probably going to do a better job than those who are thick-headed.
2 The moisture behind facia could be due to lack of drip edge. As long as it dries up it's not a problem at this point but it should be addressed at time of reroof and drip edge should solve the problem.
2a You noted you don't need additional ventilation 'venting drip edge' - Sounds like your house has other intake venting (soffit vents perhaps?). You do want vents so if they aren't present they should be installed at time of reroof both along the eave and high on the roof (ridge, gable....)
3 There's no need for waterproof shingle underlayment in your climate along the eave edge. Everyone's moved that way for a number of reasons but the benefit to you will only come in the event of a hurricane or tornado and then all-bets-are-off anyway. There is one detail using waterproof shingle underlayment (WSU)that will definately solve the facia moisture problem - Plastic surfaced (like Grace brand Ice and Water Shield)WSU has a very specific eave detail. Unlike other WSU brands it should be applied before the drip edge is installed. 1/2" should wrap down and over the face of the facia. This seals the facia/roof sheathing joint. Then the drip edge goes on and the 'drop leg' of the drip edge covers the WSU on the face of the facia.
4 Step flashing must be installed beneath the siding and housewrap/tar paper. Step flashing wall leg should be a minimum of 5 in. tall on the wall above the bottom of the siding. So if the siding has a 1 in. space off the roof the steps should be 6 in. tall.
Wind driven rain at 25 mph will rise 5 in. vertically behind a mechanical overlap of building components. 99.99% of roofs today don't have sufficiently sized step flashings. Building codes and manufacturer specs will be changing in the next few code cycles to require larger flashing sizes so even though it's not 'code' yet, it's good roofing practice. Roofers probably won't be able to buy these off-the-shelf but can easily bend some from aluminum coil stock.
Hope this helps.
Mike Guertin
mike,
I don't think I have EVER seen 5" tall step flashing.
2"x3" x7" being standard here
and a larger size approx. 3"x3"x8" for metric sized dimensional shingles.
Never seen anything even approaching 5" tall
Here,typically,
I can get the 2" leg of an aluminum step under existing clap---or cedar shingle siding without removing existing siding.
also--typically on a existing house--there is NO felt or "housewrap" under that siding-----------------at most maybe some red rosin paper which has essentially no deterrant at all to rain.
I would have to wonder about that 5" requirement----------gotta say that in 20 years or so I can't recall ever,EVER working on a roof----either as a repair or a complete roof replacement project where "only" 2" of sep flashing under the siding was ever a problem-------and that's on houses that have worked quite nicely since the early 1920's--WITHOUT housewrap.
Keeping that in mind, I would be extremely resistant to adopting 5" high step flashing-----which WOULD almost certainly require removing siding to install---- and would almost certainly cause more harm/damage than potential good. I don't see how I could really consider it "good roofing practice"----at best neutral---and in practice---the down side outweighs the potential up side by a considerable margin.
at least in my area the 2x3x7 size has worked flawlessly for 80 plus years
Best wishes, all
stephen
4"x4" wall flashing has always been standard for me every where I have worked. We have always made the effort oback it up with tarpaper run up 8" on new work. Anytime there is question of quality of things, we remove or losen siding. But I agree that there are times that calls for a new siding job. We adress that ahead of time.
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Yeah, I used to use 4x7 flashing cards that end up with 2 in. legs. But now with so many siding manufacturer's requiring between 1 in (all wood siding, vinyl and many composites) and 2 in.`(fiber cement), the small flashings just won't cut it. The only thing that's keeping most sidewalls from leaking in my area is the wsu guys are running from roof to wall. They're slapping up 12 in. minimum. We get a little more wind and water here on the coast than you probably do.I'm not implying by suggesting 5 in wall legs that you need to do it. But when it comes to flashings - bigger is better without a doubt. So I prefer to recommend to homeowners that they pay a little extra if that's what it takes to have larger flashings installed.Most of the local yards here stock 4x4x8s prebent so they are getting close. I haven't seen the latest proposals on flashing from ICC but right now they just don't address specific sizing. In FL the flashing sizes are speced by code so no one can excuse themselves from liability by claiming 'it's to code.'And mill finish aluminum is definately out - fiber cement manufacturere won't permit its use and it doesn't mix well with cedar. Again, my coastal area does a number on mill aluminum - we get 15 years before it pits. We use heavier gauge coated aluminum or bendable vinyl. You are right - slipping steps under existing siding can be difficult. I've had good luck running a flush-cut saw made for cutting door jambs along the roof/wall intersection. I cut the siding (wood typically) up 1 in. I pop a small section of shingles or a piece of lap siding off near the bottom of the run and use it as an entry point for slipping the flashing behind the siding. I made up a flush-cutting bar kind of like a slate ripper with a 90 degree bend about 6 in. down. Use it to clear out fasteners. After the steps slip in I put a few SS face nails just beneath shingle course laps to make certian the shingles stay in place. I know what you're thinking - "that's a lot of work..." Yup - maybe I've been lucky with clients willing to pay the price (or I'm a good bs'er)MG
Haven't seen anyone use drip edge here in the Chicagoland area, either.
Actually, I did see it once- installed on top of shingles. Caused lots of rot- go figure.
I made some up and put it on mom's house, though. :) Underneath the shingles :)
That is insane in such a windy locale
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Mike, our steps are pre-bent,pre-painted 2x3x7 or 3x3x8.
this issue ,I think closely compares to california seismic code details---as compared to risk of earthquake in---say maryland.-- things that might make perfect sense in CA------------might seem a bit perplexing in Maryland ?????
HERE-- a 5x5x7 step-----would seem to be a" solution in search of a problem "LOL
best wishes, Stephen
Don't forget about global warming - eventually you may be working in a seaside community. Well, maybe your great great great great grandchildren....Mike
I was trying to get a picture of this step flashing in my mind so I found a picture on flicker of it. Does this look to be done properly? I would think that the diagonal cut would allow water to get behind the flashing?http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=84969007&size=lThanks,MG
The diagonal cut is not baad, probably done for stylistic purposes though. It is better to have it run vertical for more protection against wind driven rain entering behind that flap. It all depends how much lap exists at that point. I also use a bead of caulk behind that edge for resistance against wind. The first one up from the bottom corner shows a gap that should not be.On second study, this whole counter flashing piece seems to be cut from one length of lead, sliced and folded into place in the brick. This avoids the multiple laps that wind can lift, but limits the amt of protection it gives. Kind of iffy looking to my mind
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I would have thought ideally the vertical cut would have a fold which would then be pushed into the vertical brick grout lines like the horizontal folds. I can see the advantage of the one piece in terms of wind resistance. How does it limit the protection it can give?Thanks the explaination!MG
vertical cut edges will be individual pieces lapping over one another. The detail shown in the photo allows water to follow the edge back on the diagonal to the cut intersect. From there, it has the option of cascading down over and onto shingles and step flashing as it ought with the help of gravity, or of following surface tension and possible wind loading and running horizontally back in behind the vertical leg of the step flashing and thencce into the house.
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MG,
Is that a job on your own home or are you looking for a better way to do it on other work?
There are several problems with that flashing job. The step flashings are really too short on the brickwork.I make up steps that are 4" on the vertical and 5" onto the roof for this work.
The counter flashing then is too close to the slate shingles-and being all one piece,cut on a bevel like that-it affords not enough protection for the roof flashings, The counter flashing lead should be lapped at least 3" as it is let into each mortar joint-the horizontal ones. The vertical ones are not let into the mortar joints,just the horizontal ones.
Check out this one if you wish. Walter http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhqzYY
yes, the counterflash can't be much more than 1" high at the low point so the effective ht. of the step flash is about 1" max
rain has got to blow in the slanted verticals and then must be behind the steps.... cool looking ... bad flashing
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>>>>>>>>cool looking ... bad flashingI believe that all the counters are made out of one continuous piece of lead, which means there is no overlap at all. It's even badder than you thought.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Yeah, it took me about three looks to see that fact. At first I thought, "Hey, cool style" Then I was looking to see how they did it and thought it was squares of lead sheet laid in diagnally with a small lap, but when I was on my third look to see how much lap there was, I thought, "Hey, that's all one piece! Some wawa has to be wandering inside!"
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Walter, superior work! you can flash my roof any time! :) just kidding, but honestly one of, if not the best, flashing job I have seen in a looooong time! Thanks for the pics. I really liked the soldered step flashing, great work!!
Geoff
P.S. where is Newburgh ,say, in relation to Portland or Rockland?
Geoffrey,
Thank you very much for the praise. I'd be honored to do your work if the need arises.
Newburgh is 20 minutes South of Bangor- Bangor is 2 hours North of Portland.
If I were taking the State Ferry to Vinalhaven from Rockland it would take an hour and fifteen minutes,using some back roads.
Walter
Thanks for the pictures Walter.It isn't a job I've done or on my house, I was interested in the ideas behind the step flashing and your thoughts on this one. Thank you for looking it over and the critical commentary!On your job it looks like before you repaired the flashing there was no roof flashing, is that right? What kind of plastic do you put down before the roof flashing? Is there a name for the scale shaped shingles?Nice looking work!MG
On that flashing job a mason had retopped the brick work from the roof up for the owner-without enlisting my help.
When they developed problems the owner asked for my help. The mason had left his lead flashings way too long and out over the slates,since they were unable to deal with the roofing. I cut his lead way back to act as counterflashing to my lead coated copper roof flashings. Grace ice and water shield is typically used as a base flashing prior to the metal to eliminate any possibility of wind driven rain being able to penetrate.
Bangor, Me. has numerous Mansard roofed homes like this one with a flatter upper roof and the decorative slates on the steep part. Scallops or fish scales are terms I use and have heard those slates referred to.
They do take a beating from snow and ice falling from the roof above-so there are usually repairs needed from time to time.
Thanks for looking. Walter
Stephen... we make all our steps from 24" coil stock, and we run it thru our slitter so we get 8" strips, about 8' long
we bend that on our break into either 4 & 4 or 5 & 3... then we cut our steps off that long piece
if we are following the Hardi spec of 2" exposure , we use the 5" leg up the wall
we did that once and it looked so god-awful we went back to our 3/4" exposure... so we normally use the 4" up & 4" out... typically BLACK coil stock.. so the 3/4" exposure looks like a shadow line
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Same basic idea here. I strip up 36" wide sheets of 16 oz. copper,when the scrap is gone,into 4 9" strips that are 8' long. I make up 4x5 angles-then depending upon the slates exposure that I'm working with-cut the exposure length plus 3".
A 20" slate would have 8.5" exposure so my steps would be 11.5" long
and Mike,
I'm seeing about a 3" high step flashing space. Maybe it is less than that. Marginal in any case
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I doubt if the low end of the steps is more than 1 1/2" tall.
It's a very poor flashing job at best. It also looks like lead steps at the dividing wall flashings. Much too soft a material for that use.
mike,
I USED to bend all my step myself----untill 8-10 years ago when I found that I could BUY pre-bent, pre-painted steps--- each one perfectly bent.
white, black or brown. also copper steps---2x3x7
typically i always have a pack of 100 brown step flashing---as it will match my chimney flashing( Oh, the horror----- brown aluminum chimney flashing.
I have actually got away from buying 24" coil stock the last year or so-------------it is getting VERY thin here.-- my supplier carries 10ft. pieces of unbent valley flashing stock that I have started using for chimney flashing as it is MUCH thicker and heavier.
If I should ever be cursed with 5x5x8 step taking over the market( very much doubt that will happen here)-------- I guess I will just have to cut 2-3 " off the vertical leg so it will fit up under the siding. LOL---- probably on a chimney I would leave it 5x5x8----as it wouldn't interfere with anything there.
One thing I haven't mentioned---which probably makes a difference-----------HERE, most sidewalls requiring step flashing are protected by a 16-18" overhang----- quite different than what y'all face up there in the land of Colonials and Capes.
in the meantime----since the 2x3x7 step flashing has worked flawlessly on these houses since 1910's-1920's--- i think i will continue to use the 2x3x7 size.
Paraphrasing walter,----" if it ain't broke---don't fix it!"
Best wishes, Stephen
2" up the wall is all I ever go and I've had 3 people call me today and address me as the "guy that can fix the leaks that others can't figure out". What BS, I hate leak chasing. But, we don't have hurricanes and it didn't hardly snow last year. I've never seen Hardie installed a full inch off the roof yet either. And, as you said, we've got soffits at the eave and rake, usually.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Grant,
I LOVE tracking down leaks !
BTW--------I'll tell ya a dirty little secret. I have yet to encounter hardiplank on a job since I avoid new construction.-------with a little luck I will be able to retire---without ever encountering the stuff !
Stephen
>>>>>>>>I LOVE tracking down leaks !I don't really mind it. In fact I've learned to think like the rain drop - actually, scratch that. I've learned to BE the rain drop. But, I've also learned to be the sheet metal brake and I like being the 2500 lb beast better than the rain drop. FWIW, I like cementitious siding. It's cheap and easy to replace if you mess a piece up when you're flashing. I'd much rather reflash under it than cedar shingles.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
I know what you mean Grant.
I am going in a different direction.
in 5-8 years I will pretty much be out of roofing--------- I am only still in it now because it simplifys paying private highschool and college tuition ( and probably nursing home fees)
I have been working at moving slowly into oddball carpentry and woodworking type projects for a couple years now------- gradually increasing my carpentry hours each year. I haven't done the talley for the year yet( this year is still in production!)--- but I suspect I will be up to around 60-40, 65/35 roofing to carpentry.
Last week I installed 2 eyebrow window sashes that I bent for a customer in existing openings----then cut a hole in a wall and installed a double hung window in another location on the same house----and trimmed out the inside.
I had a BLAST. at the time I realised that I had FINALLY spent 2 days doing EXACTLY whatI had set out to do 25 years ago----- I have just been sidetracked for 20 years or so roofing for $$$$$$$
so I am moving into " BEING" the quarter sawn white oak
or is it "Being" the table saw, the thickness planer, the router table, the marking gauge, the chisel etc?
I don't know exactly-- but I hope to work well into my 70's( although I am gonna be semi retired in 5-8 years)------- that gives me about 30 years to get as good as I probably would be right NOW---if I had stuck to my original game plan 20-25 years ago LOL--( sticking to that original game plan 20-25 years ago would have meant a MUCH lower quality of life for my wife and sons----- now that they are nearly taken care of---it's time to resume MY goals LOL)
Best wishes Grant----gotta run
today I finish relining that box gutter----6 days in one place---- quite a change for me
Stephen
Something else I will add.
I built a 55' long back porch here with a 20" soffit and with a 8" cedar vertical facia board. I used a pine trim strip behind the facia, nailed to the bottom side of the soffit.
After a few years I noticed the pine strip was starting to rot. During a heavy rain, with wind, the water was wicking back and up from the bottom of the facia.
I replaced the pine strip and installed a small plastic drip strip to the bottom of the facia. Basically just a 3/4" wide plastic channel with one side hanging down about 1/2".
That stopped the wicking action and now, after 15 years more, there is no sign of rotting of the pine strip. Got the plastic strips at HD, I believe. I installed it with a brad nailer. Once painted, the paint holds it on.
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Thought of a question too. Does the drip edge nail to the decking or to the underlayment after it is installed on the decking? All roofers I've seen put down the tar paper first then install the drip edge on top of it. That seems assbackward to me. That would allow any moisture that penetrated the shingles to weep under the drip edge.
When I did my porch and apartment, I nailed the drip edge to the decking then covered it with the tar paper.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
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