I just had a roofer look at my house this weekend and, while in the attic, he said we have what is called “wide board” decking. They look like they are about 1×5 – 1x6s and in pretty good shape, by an large. They are spaced by about 1/2″.
The roofer said he’d have to go over the whole thing with plywood so if he got to a board-to-board gap with a line of shingles, he’d have something to nail into. Cost about $3k to do the whole roof.
Here’s the question – does this need to be done? Most old houses (mine’s 1960, which I guess isn’t really old) must have board sheathing for roof decks. I can’t imagine they all get sheathed over with plywood. What’s the deal here?
There are some gaps that currently have a shingle nailed into them, so its just the roof felt holding it in, but someone must have thought of a better, and certainly cheaper, solution to this than re-sheathing.
Replies
I'd look for another roofer.
The gap between the boards is accounted for w/proper planning for shingle layout.
Roofs are usually re-sheathed only if there is structural damage.
That is pure BS.
Resheathing happens all the time.I'd like to see you try to take a shingle designed for 5" exposures and fit it to a roof sheathed unevenly at about 6"OC. It would make for some good laughs.
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I guess I was reacting to the roofer's explanation that:
1. The homeowner has wide-board sheathing. 1x6 nominal is not wide-board.
2. That re-sheathing would be necessary on the chance that a course may not line up perfectly. As you know (better than I) there is some leeway within the acceptable nailing strip area on the shingle.
I did assume that the gaps between the boards are, in reality, probably less than 1/2", or at least not all 1/2", and that any boards that were unacceptably cracked/split would be replaced.
As far as your layout comment....the boards didn't seem to be a problem for the existing shingles.
"As far as your layout comment....the boards didn't seem to be a problem for the existing shingles."When the first layer of existing shingles was applied, the boards were green and tight togehter. They have since shrunlk while two more layers of shingles were applied over top of them. By time the cracks had openned up, the second layer was being applied over and supported by the first layer, same repaet for the third.But now that we are talking about striping down to the deck, the cracks become an issue. last time the deck was open to the sky, there were no cracks
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I'll disagree totally with the previous. I don't think he understands the problem. Re-sheathing is a very common and high quality practice over the past decade or so when dealing with older homes that have had the old bords shrink or split like yours has done. For instance, to me a wide board is 12" to 21" wide, but it may have been installed green and has shrunk over the past hundred years so it has six or seven checks running through it. yours aren't really wide, but they were installed green and have now cured and shrunk.
It comes down to - do you want a gaurantee with that?
Ever shingle spec I have ever read states clearly that any sheathing gaps greater then ( varies from 1/8" to 3/8") must be covered with strip shhete metal before roofing over it. The resheathing is a whole lot faster and cheaper when it is the whole roof that has these gaps.
Add to that - it takes a lot longer to shingle a roof that has gaps like yours.
And- most guys do not hand nail any more. The shingles will be installed with a coil pneumatic roof nailer. It will blow a hole right through the shingle when there is nothing backing it up.
When hand nailing, I can feel when I am hitting air holes and move the nail ine up or down to miss it and hit real wood, but that has a problem too - if nails are not placed in the right location, any claims for wind damage are disallowed by the manufactuer.
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"It comes down to - do you want a gaurantee with that?"here's a question on a bit of a tangent. How many of you have made a successful warranty claim on shingles? I know one contractor out of ??. The company asked him to cut out a section of roof, including shingles, felt, sheeting, and a truss section, send it in to them, and wait for approval. He did it and they paid. It was his own house, which is why he was willing to put up with a temp patch until the $$$ came through, not to mention a truss with a patch in a top chord. jeff
I have only tried one claim and it was rejected.But I worked for Lydick Roofing Co in Lubbock Texas. They had outfits in five cities in State and were reputedly the largest roofing CO inthe state. They routinely got satisfaction on claims, but they had two things working in their favour - they had clout, from buying so much product, and they had an office staff to keep the fire burning on each claim
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Okay I just got a call from the roofer with his rough estimate.
This is for only the house part which is 1000 sqr ft.1. Soffit build out (our soffits are only 3" wide and he wants more to do venting): $43002. Put plywood over the existing sheathing : $30003. Strip shingles, put new ones on with new felt, I&W, drip edge, ridge vent etc. $7700+He stopped when he got to $15k because he knew we couldn't afford it. So I don't know how much the garage is which is another 1000 sqrft.He said he would absolutely have to oversheath with plywood because removing 3 layers of asphalt shingles would crack so many boards with the nail pulls. He said whatever was left would likely have too many holes in it to put up the shingles safely. He really poo-pooed the use of osb at all.Clean out of my price range by more than a factor of 2, but whatdya think? Does the "too many holes" and splitting the boards when stripping argument hold any water - never mind the gap size ?
This was about 1992, but I had 44 sheets put on my house. Installation was $10 a sheet, and I forget what the plywood (3/8") went for then. About $12 I think. I was originally quoted $40 a sheet and told them I wouldn't go for it. I got someone else.Personally, I have no problem saying $100 per sheet is too high. And I wouldn't do anything until the roof is stripped and YOU actually SEE the condition of the boards.As for breaks from the stripping, possibly. Too many nail holes - BS!Find another roofer.BTW, does this one use only his own employees, or does he use subs? It sounds to me like he might be using subs, and then marking up by double what he pays them. At least for the sheathing part.
I just got a call from the roofer with his rough estimate.
Before starting, get a written proposal or contract.
1. Soffit build out (our soffits are only 3" wide and he wants more to do venting): $4300
There are other options for venting at the eave line. Vented drip edge is one. It has been discussed on this forum previously.
http://www.airvent.com/homeowner/products/intake-ventedDE.shtml
http://www.toolbase.org/techinv/techDetails.aspx?technologyID=157
http://www.bendtek.com/p_vented_drip_edge.asp
2. Put plywood over the existing sheathing : $3000
Sounds high to me. I'm in KY and just raised my price to $2.14/sq ft for 1/2" CDX. That would be $2140 for a 1000 sq ft roof and I'm in agreement with whoever said the call to over sheath should not be made until the roof is stripped. Might just need a few boards replaced.
3. Strip shingles, put new ones on with new felt, I&W, drip edge, ridge vent etc. $7700+
My price for the same excluding the ridge vent, since I don't know how much ridge there is would be about $3600 for 30 year dimensional shingles. I've not included any flashing and I'm assuming the roof is 8/12 or less. Material prices do not differ a huge amount, but dump fees might and my prices are based on my local dump fees. I don't have employess, but use dedicated subs. Edit: and they are some of the best compensated subs in this area.
He said he would absolutely have to oversheath with plywood because removing 3 layers of asphalt shingles would crack so many boards with the nail pulls. He said whatever was left would likely have too many holes in it to put up the shingles safely. He really poo-pooed the use of osb at all.
Bullsh!t. The top layer of shingles is probably just barely nailed to the sheathing. Once again, you might need new sheathing. You can't really tell 'til you strip it. Has this guy got a new F350 dually diesel he needs to make a payment on? I'd get some more prices. Good luck.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
Edited 9/14/2005 3:28 pm ET by seeyou
Prices like this would make a year's worth of truck payments, dontcha think?Aside -
Have you encountered 'dead wood' down there?
I don't think it would be the case with this one under discussion, but here, once the house is over a hundred years or so, there is no life left in the wood. it is so dry that it won't hold a nail very well, so that even if it looks solid, by time you are done roofing, you wish you had used a plywood overlay so the shingles won't blow off.
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Piffin, if the boards are dead, wouldn't the rafter be too? What do you fasten the plywood too?
blue
The boaarding is pine, but the rafters in theses old ones are more like 6x6 or 4x8 hemlock, much tighter grain pattern
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Well, I'm almost done reroofing my garage. It had 2 layers of shingles and one layer of gravel impregnated tar. Man, did that ever suck to have to remove! there was 1x6 cedar sheathing underneith, exactly as you describe.
I could have just started on that deck as it was. I might have had to replace a couple of 24" sections between rafters, but it was generally in good stable shape. Unless you have a good reason to pull those boards, I agree with everyone else... and I say this as someone who had the same roof as you.
On the other hand, you might want to take this opportunity to replace that sheathing with something like radient barrier OSB or Plywood, to help keep things more temprature stable in the attic.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Whether it is needed or not is a toss-up. I ain't there and he is. I often do these with the plywood on hand in anticipation of the need, and usually do find that in my judgement, it is needed, but the price of $300 per square to do it is just plain rediculous unless the hosue is three stories tall with hard access and cut up to boot.
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Another thought - I have questions about changing the sofffit too. That will potentially alter for good or bad the profile of the house in the way it presents itself, and possibly lower the fasci and soffit which will impinge on the sunlight entering windows.If you are seriously going to spray foam to the inside of the sheathing, there is no need for any venting
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That roofer is out to lunch any way you look at it.
That horsesh!t about too many nail holes is so transparently silly I can't believe he thought you'd believe it. He must really think you are dumb.
His prices are ridiculous, too. I just quoted an 1800 sf cedar shake roof with 1½" rigid foam board insulation to be added to the outside of the old roof deck before laying on new skip sheathing for the shakes. It came out to about the same this guy was trying to con you out of for 1000 sf of asphalt shingles and three dozen sheets of thin plywood.
Run, do not walk, away from this crook.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Mountains are being made from molehills on this post.
Board sheathing is on lots of roof decks from 200 year old homes to houses built in the 50's and later.It makes a fabulous deck for asphalt shingles.
The roof you describe is exactly what you'd expect and want from a home built in that time.
For a perfect looking roof there are a few simple,not costly steps,that you should incorporate in your specs to give to bidders-
1 after shingle removal renail the sheathing with gun driven 8d galv. nails 2 or 3 per rafter in each board,replacing any that are rotted.
2 to eliminate any concerns of gaps after you use Grace at the eaves lay 30 lb. felt in a double coverage install for the balance of the roof-this will give the needed support so there will be no telegraphing of gaps to your finished roof.
3 ask for a quote to hand nail the shingles like others here have suggested.
Once the new roof is on then have your insulation installed.
sounds like a good start for the job - once it's stripped, then you'll have to decide about the plywood
Part of the problem with the planks is that they dry out and the nails loose their grip. There is also a problem of knots, which can fall out. And the boards split, which if a nail is present then works itself loose. We had that problem at our last house, and in fact was the reason I was re-roofing - too many nails working loose and popping up through the shingle.
But you don't necessarily need to resheath. It is all a question of the condition of the boards. And you can't tell that until everything is off.
However, resheathing would not hurt anything (except your wallet).
Is 3K for everything, or just the extra for re-sheathing?
I'll agree with what Piffin said in a general way, but I'll be a bit more conservative.
While it is possibly true that your roof could profit from being re-sheathed, the description you gave of your roof deck leaves some doubt in my mind. I would be somewhat suspicious of the motives of a roofer who declares categorically that resheathing is a prerequisite before stripping. I'd also be a bit sceptical of a roofer who doesn't know the difference between wide-board sheathing and what you have.
You do not have 'wide-board' sheathing; wide boards, as Piffin stated, are 12" and up; usually they are square-edge and rough (unplaned). They also tend to vary in thickness from 7/8" to 1¼". And they were laid green 90% of the time.
The 6" boards you have are likely T&G spruce, designed and milled for use as roof sheathing and sub-flooring, and installed in millions of houses built from the 1930s on up to the mid '60s or so. They were usually KD before being planed and milled, so they have probably not shrunk all that much. The gaps you saw here and there might be as wide as ½", but more likely they are closer to a ¼" unless something unusual has been happening in your roof--or if the roof deck was badly installed 'way back when....
I've re-shingled numerous older board-sheathed roofs, and I still build new board-sheathed roofs when the situation calls for it. I've never had a problem doing this and it was still permitted by code the last time I checked. Do remember that your original roof deck has supported the shingles that are on it for (x) number of years with no problems (you didn't mention any); this fact should not be forgotten, as it means something.
My basic philosophy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"...but there are exceptions to that, too, of course. Piffin's comment about the almost universal use of roofing guns is one point to be considered. You might try specifying hand-nailing, and see where that gets you....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
There aren't any big problems to speak of - looks like maybe some small leaks here and there at nail holes over the life of the roof - but most things look in good shape. The roof has 3 layers of asphalt shingles on it now so I think the top 2 layers might be helping hold the bottom ones down :) .
I don't see any tounges or grooves, at least as I'd imagine them, on the sheathing.
I think the past roofing jobs have been home-done. The first and only other owner was carpenter who built the whole house and his son is in the siding business. I think the sister told me they did everything in the house. Now I know who to blame...
The price of $100 per sheet of plywood installed to oversheathe the roof deck is quite high. You can bet he's figuring on 3/8" ply, which even today isn't anywhere near that price (I'd guess it's gonna be about 25-35 bucks per sheet). You'd need about 65 sheets of plywood to overlay a 2000sf roof deck, so thats $6500, of which 65-75% is labour. Outta line, IMO. Plus, I don't see where the $3000 figure came from.
As to the necessity of oversheathing....
I was just in the attic. The boards are, in rare instances space 1/2", but generally are 1/4 - 3/8", except where a knot was at a board edge that fell out - then maybe 1-1.5". But they're real boards - lumber, not rough hewn out of a tree. The house isn't that old. They look to be in good shape to the very untrained eye. All the roofers I've interviewed have said it felt strong when they were on it.
It doesn't sound necessary from what you say. What will be necessary will be for you to find a roofer or renovation contractor who is comfortable and experienced in doing this kind of re-roof. You don't want somebody who spends most of their time slapping shingles on new construction in 300-house subdevelopments.
Have the job done using ice-and-snow membrane on the eaves; 50# felt or one of the newer roofing underlayments for the rest; and use a good quality of asphalt shingle. Make sure any questionable flashings are replaced with good quality galvanized or copper (not aluminum). You should be fine without the plywood oversheathing.
But you have to be comfortable with this, too. You have to understand the issues that are being discussed here so you can make an informed decision. I think you're going a good way in that direction by posting your questions here.
The first and only other owner was carpenter who built the whole house and his son is in the siding business. I think the sister told me they did everything in the house. Now I know who to blame...
I hope you meant that in a joking way; I don't read anything in your posts about the house's condition that needs to have blame assigned. In the 60s when your house was built, board sheathing was still very common; there is no reason to think the carpenter who built it was cheaping out in any way. Just the fact it has lasted this long and appears in good shape should speak in the builder's favour.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
You may have a point. Neither of us can see this one, but if the majority of the opennings are only 1/4", then he could probably get by with a good roofer doing it.
BTW - I have never seen any T&G on roof boarding. must be more regional...
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BTW - I have never seen any T&G on roof boarding. must be more regional...
Possibly. I can't get T&G 1x spruce anymore, anyway. All I can get is round-edged green 1x (4, 6, or 8), so green it's almost wringing wet. You gotta keep your face outta the way when you sink a nail or you'll get a squirt in the eye like the classic old grapefruit gag. It works well, even so; I set the boards tight and know I'll wind up with less than a half-inch between planks once it's been up there for a summer.
The only T&G roof decking currently in use here is 2x6 red pine. Now this is very nice stuff. Too nice for roofs, almost, LOL. It's milled to 1-5/8 x 5" coverage, and cut with a V-joint on the bottom face so it can be laid directly on rafters or joists and present a nice-looking ceiling from below. I use it a lot for rustic floors, as it requires no sub-floor and is at least twice as hard as white pine.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I like red pine, but it is sporadic supply here.
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I am also down here in Eastern Mass; all of the homes built in the inner suburbs around Boston in the 20's and 30's (10's of thousands of them, really) seem to use T+G boards for roofing.
Off the subject of this thread, these houses were built after the T extended from Boston to Cambridge, Newton, Somerville, etc., and the builders used what was being mass produced for these house from the mills. It was a huge building boom here, and created the first suburbs, really.
You can go into a house built in the 20's in any of a dozen towns miles away from each other and see exactly the same trim details and floor layouts - many of the houses are almost direct copies from Stickley's Craftsman Homes
i see 1x6 and 1x8 T&G a lot on houses from say 1930 to about 1960.. usually looks like #2Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'd say that most of the houses I've worked on were built before 1910 or after 1960
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Plus, I don't see where the $3000 figure came from.
I'll have a better idea when I get the final estimate in writing but I think $3k was to oversheath the main house wich is only 1000sqrft.
hope you meant that in a joking way
Absolutely. My sarcasm doesn't come accross in person or online. I guess it was late and I forgot the ;) . Seriously, this is probably the best built house I'll ever live in - other than the attic+roof (which are slowly becoming a nightmare) the place is in good shape and the craftsmanship is remarkable.
Good advice about the experience level of the contractor with respect to this kind of roof an not just total experience.
You don't want somebody who spends most of their time slapping shingles on new construction in 300-house subdevelopments.
Dino, I thought that comment was kinda comical. Let's face it, laying sheets of plywook isn't rocket science! It's a freakin' sheet of plywood. You lay it, nail it and then roof it. I'm sure any shingle slapper can figure out what he needs to slap his shingles on fast!
blue
Blue, you misunderstood. The point is I don't think he needs the plywood.
So instead of the plywood, what he needs is a roofer who won't go 'duhwhadaforkizdat?' when he sees a plank roof deck.
You know...somebody more experienced. More 'well rounded' in his profession. More, ah, responsible.
In other words, an old fart.
Like you N me....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
one thing that seems to have been missed - 3 layers of shingles - the roof has to be stripped - once that's done, then make the decision about the new sheathing - probably need a change order provision for the new plywood - other thing is the shingles have to line up, not the nails, so you could snap line on the paper to show where the planking is and then nail away or just put the nails on an "offset" to be sure you get them into something solid
if you do re-sheath, the edges will be covered by the new drip edge and that should solve that concern
good luck
If your sheathing boards are in good shape, you don't have to tear them off and re-sheathe. When the roofer is nailing the new shingles, he may have to nail a little higher on some rows that hit a space between the boards. A nail gun can shoot right through the shingle and into the attic if a big enough space is hit. This may blow a hole through the shingle and that shingle will have to be discarded or maybe used for an end cut or cap. This can be a bit frustrating for the roofer and slows his process down. You just need a roofer that is patient enough to deal with this. Chances are, that this will only be an issue on four or five rows of shingles. You can't adjust the rows to miss these gaps, reasonably. You just have to go a little slower, which is something roofers don't like to do. They want to slap up the shingles like a machine. Taking extra care could mean a slight increase in the labor price. There are some " we bang em, you buy em" roofers that won't take the time to do it right. They'll just blow holes through the shingles and cover them with the next row. You will want to talk to a potential roofer and determine if they will take the little bit of extra time to move the nailing position when needed.
Very knotty sheathing boards can also slow things down. Sometimes, the roofing gun will not drive a nail flush when it hits a hard knot. This will mean breaking out the hand hammer. another thing roofers don't like. If the nails aren't driven flush, they will poke a hole in the next row. This is something else that you should talk about before hiring an installer.
In Eastern Mass, you should also be using ice and water shield for the first 36" under the shingles. I'd also recommend using shingle underlayment (first choice) or felt with gapped sheathing boards, just in case you get a hard blowing storm.
As a side point, I was thinking of spraying Demilec/Icynene on the underside of the roof. It seems like the foam would expand into the gaps between the boards.
Does anyone have an opinion on this? Seems like the foam might not be so friendly to the roofing felt or paper. I don't know what happens to the felt in the rain - does it get so wet that the foam might get wet also?
BobS
that is not where you want to seal the roof, one of the nice things about skip sheathing is that air gets to the underside of shingles quickly and allows them to rapidly dry out helping to prevent rot..
The roof is a system and each piece needs to work with another piece to work properly.. It's not just the shingles, it's not the flashing or the venting, rather it's a whole package. sometimes what works in one location won't work well in another..
Did you get the impression that he is talking about cedaar shingles on this? I didn't, but that could be the case here, if so, everything changes!
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Sorry if I was unclear. I'm planning for asphalt shingles. Currently there actually is one row of cedar shingles on the drip edge under all the shingles, but I'm told that's not uncommon. I was told those have to come off when reroofing - they aren't in the best shape.
Bob - I just did a roof where we charged $100/board to replace bad sheathing on an existing roof. That was cutting out the old and putting in the new. If your guy wants that amount to go over existing, I think it's too much. Like Piffen said, for a square, that's a good price, not for a board.
I don't see any problem going over the existing wood with fresh shingles, etc. If it were my job, I wouldn't bother with the plywood, just be careful nailing. Does the ply make it stronger and better? A little. Is it necessary? Not really.
Don
He did not say anything about tearing the sheathing off, he said they proposed to sheathe over the old, which is very common when in cases like this, most of the gaps are 1/2".I found out a long time ago that the time slowing down to do a acceptable job over old sheathing like this was about the same as to resheathe over the old, so the only cost to the HO is for the extra materials.
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Piffin - Does $100+ / 4x8 sheet sound like a reasonable price to you? Also, he wants to use plywood - any reason not to use cheaper osb?
Should I be worried about my 2x6 rafters supporting the extra weight?
yeah, that price sounds high to me. That is if the rate you rep[ort is right. There are three sheets of ply in a square of roofing, roughly. So maybe he was quoting per square and not per sheet. That would make it an excellent priceI think you need the sheathing over, but you should try getting another roofer for comparison on price, and clarify this with him. Maybe your area is expensive - or maybe you looked stoopid - or maybe you misunderstood
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BobS
Osb is inferior to plywood in several ways. frankly if your roof boards aren't rotted I sure wouldn't make the switch to plywood..
You never answered the question about the 3k. Is that the entire roof cost or the upcharge for resheathing? Typically, around here, new sheathing (7/16 OSB most commonly) will add $65 to $80 per square to the price of an already stripped roof.
I absolutely agree with Piffen, new sheathing will give the smoothest surface - which is the best base for asphalt shingles. It just depends on how long you want the new roof to last. You could always ask the roofer to skip the sheathing, and accept responsibility for it's performance.
Terry
Ok, lot to respond to.
He was just throwing out numbers for price. The roof is 2000sqft with 3 layers on it. Most have said anywhere from $5k to $8k with no mention of resheathing. This guy was talking about $12k to do the whole thing nont including resheathing, but including a soffit buildout so I can get some soffit venting. He said its about $100/ 8x4 piece of plywood installed - but more if they have to go to the store and get it because they aren't expecting something. The 3k was just to resheath the main house - 1000sqrft and doesn't include any of the other roofing stuff. I should also mention that he didn't intend on removing the old sheathing, just putting plywood overtop. That seems to me like it would screw up all the edges where the siding meets the roof. I haven't gotten the final estimate yet so some of the numbers might be wrong. But it was going to be at least 12k if not more, all said and done.
I was just in the attic. The boards are, in rare instances space 1/2", but generally are 1/4 - 3/8", except where a knot was at a board edge that fell out - then maybe 1-1.5". But they're real boards - lumber, not rough hewn out of a tree. The house isn't that old. They look to be in good shape to the very untrained eye. All the roofers I've interviewed have said it felt strong when they were on it.
BobS
That is called skip sheating and is the thing to use if you ever intend to put cedar shingles on your roof.. Do not I repeat, Do Not let him tear that off! Plywood is a cheap second alterantive to real skip sheathing!
There is a diference between this and skip-sheathing. This is simply green boards that have shrunk.skip sheathing intentionally skips spaces for venting the wood shingles. A ten inch exposure shake would use a 1x6 @ 10" OC
A Five inch exposure shingle would use a 1x4 @ 5" OC or a 1x8 @ 10" OCSo the spaces on skip sheathing ar more like two inches between. It is because they intentionally skip spaces that it was called skip-sheathing
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Whether this is skip sheathing or not, the idea of using the gaps to allow drying to the interior is intriguing. I guess that the the idea of spraying foam would inhibit this. Is that a problem?
cedar shingles need to dry to the inside. Asphalt do not, and need a solid smooth surfce under them. The thing that can be a concern with asphalt shingles is that some manufactuireres again use this as an excuse to disalow warrantee claims. Reasoning is that a roof surface with no venting behind it - as with foam sprayed directly to sheathing undersides - will run higher temperatures which shortens the lifespan. However, in practicle terms, the shortening is on the order of .08% - or a few months in the life cycle according to tests.
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>> Asphalt do not, and need a solid smooth surfce under them.Not to be obtuse, but I don't think I totally understand this sentence. Are you saying asphalt shingles do need a solid smooth surface? Then that would seem to put the kiabosh on not oversheathing with ply/osb.
Asphalt shingles do not need to dry to the interior or backside
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Here is a thought -0 If you are going to back spray the foam on the bottom side of your sheathing, just do it before re-roofing. The foam will fill the cavities and provide enough support for the shingles, though it will still not hold nails. When the old shignles are removed, the tarpaper will still stick to the foam at the cracks, but that should not be a problem.All this really depends on the actual conditions on site. Normally, I would hesitate to oppose the recommendations of a roofer who is actually looking at it, and is the one who needs to gaurantee it, but the high price he seems to be quotingt makes me wonder if he is simly selling up to increase profits. but you do have to keep in mind that on a re-roof, his liability goes way up the longer the place is open to the sky, and resheathing can extend that red light time frame by a bit.Ask any roofer about how they will protect the house while re-roofing, and make sure that he presents evidence of current contracotrs' liability insurance and work comp
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I'm kind of against the idea of foaming and then shingling. The roof work has to be exemplary for foaming to work - absolutely no little leaks, and excellent flashing around the vent stacks. So I'd like to give the roof a rainstorm or two after the new roof is on, but before I foam, just to make sure that there aren't any problems.As to the high prices, this guy is one of the markee names in the area, so I'm sure I'm not just paying for the roof but the name on the truck. Nevertheless, he's a big name for a reason.So does the tar paper/felt/roofing paper/whatever actually get wet when it rains (the gaps aren't big enough for me to get a finger in there and check)? Sorry I'm sure this is an overly basic question. But it affects the choice of foam and insulation technique.
"...he's a big name for a reason."
His big name is meaningless if he screws up your job or overcharges you. I've seen lots of big names where the names came from advertising, lotsa advertising, or maybe Daddy was in the business and Sonny took it over, but don't know spit or ...
I think you are right, he wants you to pay for the name. Whether you do or not is your choice. Given the numbers you are hearing, I would definitely talk to others.
Don
As to the high prices, this guy is one of the markee names in the area, so I'm sure I'm not just paying for the roof but the name on the truck. Nevertheless, he's a big name for a reason.
Do not fool yourself into playing the Name Game. The name means nothing in itself. Neither does a shiny new truck or a salesman with a nice suit and tie or any of the other appurtances that seem to come with 'marquee names'.
What you want is personal recommendations, ideally from people whom you know and trust, about roofers or renovation contractors whom they know and trust.
Do not be surprised if a man who comes to you highly recommended in this fashion initially gives you what seems to be a higher estimate. An honest tradesman knows there's no long-term percentage in handing out 'come-on' estimates which he'll then bump up to profitability through add-work orders you'll have to sign once the roof is stripped. (This virtually always happens.) So instead, he'll give you the bad news up front...tell you why ...suggest you work on a T&M basis...and then do his best to beat his own estimate. That way you wind up happy, and you'll call him again in the future for something else. And recommend him to your friends. Which makes him happy....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
the underlayment only gets wet if there is a problem with the shingles
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Piffin, I agree. Frenchy's out in French space on this one. Those are shrinkage. Like you said, skip sheathing normally has much wider gaps.
blue
blueeyeddevil,
I don't know why you are so adamant about something that we call skip sheathing.. The original poster reported that under the asphalt shingles was a strip of cedar shingles. cedar shingles need to breath in a way that asphalt doesn't. It's far easier to believe that they put the spacing in deliberately to provide breathing for the original cedar shingles than to believe that 6 inch wide boards would shrink a 1/2 an inch..
Practices and methods do vary from region to region and what is commonly done in one area may seldom be done in another.. I've seen the type of skip sheathing that Piffan is talking about and I've most often seen it out west under tile roofs not under cedar roofs..
Around here if there is "skip sheathing" it's usually done they way I'm doing mine which is to space the boards about 3/4 to 1 inch apart.. not good for asphalt shingles but absolutely needed for cedar shakes/shingles.. 98% of all roofs are done with plywood since it's faster, cheaper, and easier to do. The few enlightened customers ask for cedar breather and that helps a lot over plywood/OSB, yet the best method of dealing with cedar shakes/ shingles remains to be proper spacing between boards..
In my youth I helped to pulled down a barn built over a century earlier with the original cedar shakes in such good shape they were saved (yeh, saved!) They were installed with tiny little oak wedges two per shake! No nails, no felt paper, nothing!
Other than recently installed stuff there were no nails used whatsoever and everything was either trenails (wooden pegs) or wedges etc.. The barn was in good shape other than being too small to be of modern value on the farm but well over 95% of the wood was reused building other buildings..
frenchy, that barn sounds interesting.
The reason that I doubt it is skip sheathing is because he indicated spaces as small as 3/8" were occuring. I've looked at many old roofs that had that much space from shringage alone. We also see many in this areas that had cedar roofs. The spaces are typically 1". A lot of roofers put 3/4 x 3/4 strips in those spaces and reshingle.
If I were the buyer, I'd look for another shingler that wasn't so anti-osb. The plywood that is shipped now-adays isn't that great to be knocking osb. Some in here claim that osb is too flexible, but I highly doubt that there would be any flex when layed over an existing board roof!
This particular roofer has his standards, and I don't mind anyone having high standards, but it obviously doesn't fit in the the budget. I don't even mind that the guy is making a decent profit at the $100 per sheet. That sounds good to me. It's just not a good fit for this client.
blue
blueeyeddevil,
I think we are both guessing too much here.. If the boards only shrank 3/8ths of an inch as you seem focused on then you could be correct, I've seen some 6 inch wide boards shrink that much, a bit rare but it does happen.. (I'd love to discuss wood shrinkage as a seperate issue) but for a six inch wide board to shrink one whole inch (as he indicated) is way too much! simply not possible.
Now to be completely honest I never measured how wide apart the "skip sheathing" was as I nailed it down. I eyeballed about 3/4 of an inch but I'm sure that in some places it was a 1/2 or less and others it was maybe an 1 1/4, it really doesn't matter. I intend to do thatch weave and as anyone who's studied it, it's totally random as to where the shingle goes. Well, that's not totally the story but it gives and idea of the pattern involved..
I too am anti OSB as a roofing material (even though I use SIPs on part of my roof which are made from OSB) OSB doesn't have the nail holding power that plywood or solid wood does.
Finally the whole affair assumes that there is some required spacing to dry out the orginal shingles. I've seen countless homes barns etc. torn apart where the spacing varied so dramatically between boards from 3/8ths of an inch or less to 3 or 4 inches..
To clear things up, I do not believe there were ever cedar shingles on the WHOLE house and we are not intending that. The cedar shingles were just a single row on the eave edge - a starter row or to help the drip edge, or whatever - I'm not sure the reason.Consensus seems to be this guy is a bit overpriced. Either way he's out of my range, though I'm sure his work is top shelf. It'd better be for that price.I think Piffin mentioned the change of the house shape by a soffit build-out. I'm not sure what we'll do - vent/unvented - but we won't do a buildout. Maybe a fascia vent (I saw a PVC one that looked pretty slick) or a Cor-A-Vent 400 strip vent. Or maybe foam if the roofing work is exemplary.I guess we'll have to be prepared to drop a couple grand on a resheathing and hope we don't need it. That stinks. Maybe we'll have to wait for spring for a new roof if its gonna be that much or put the foam off.I really appreciate all the info. I don't think I could own a fixerupper without getting this kind of input.
Edited 9/14/2005 10:57 pm ET by BobS
let's hope the planks aren't "dead" - the guy on the roof will end up in the attic -seems like the best plan is that budget for plywood and hope it's not used -
you really need to learn to read better, Frenchy. There is no place here that he mentioned one inch gaps. He reported up to a half inch.
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He oonly reports one single course of cedar shingles. It is common to place that for support to get the starter coureses further out from the fascia for a free drip line. There has beeen no indication that the roof was ever shingled with Cedars.Skip sheathing all over the country in the four places I have roofed is spaced out about 2" between boards. I don't know why you have a hard time believing that 6" boards can shrink up to half an inch. That is what they do all the time. I've seen KD pine boards shrink from 5-5/8" to 5-1/4" in a couple months. green 1x12 can shrink 7/8" without hardly trying. Maybe your black walniut is more stable, byt we aretalking about softwood here, and typical shrinkage.Your comments here are maybe appropriate for a cedara roof, but there is no-where an indication that this guy has one, or is intending one.
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Did (does) your house have shake roofing? What you're describing sounds like skip sheathing and it's built that way to allow air circulation under a shake roof.
Shakes were very common here in CA for years, but after the Oakland Hills fire in '89, most cities banned them. A typical re-roofing job around here will include replacement of any bad skip sheathing boards then installation of solid sheathing (3/8" OSB) over the old skip sheathing.
I'm not sure what shake roofing is, but I don't think so. It has the original 3 layers of asphalt on it, one layer applied about every 15 years I think.
I see that you're back east so some explanation is in order - lol. Shake roofing is a lot like the shake siding used back there. Long tapered pieces of cedar or redwood in various widths that are hand nailed (or air stapled) one at a time. It's a nice looking roof but the shakes dry out and become a firebomb just waiting to happen. One reason that fireworks are illegal around here is that every Fourth of July resulted in several house fires that started when something landed on the roof and it almost exploded into flame.
A shake roof has to have air circulation under it or the temperature differential will cause early failure. You get the circulation by using skip sheathing which is 1" x 6" boards nailed to the rafters - with about 5" - 6" spacing between the boards. This is covered with roofing felt and the shakes are nailed to the sheathing. When a house is re-roofed, they strip the old shingles and paper, repair any bad skip sheathing boards and lay sheets of 3/8" OSB on the skip sheathing for a new roof deck.