Re-siding, strip the old or cover it??
raymond128
| Posted in General Discussion on
Looking for some imput on this one:
I’m going to be re-siding my house soon with vinyl siding (50s cape)
The house has cedar shingle siding right now. i’m trying to explore my options and decide on the best one.
Option A: leave existiing siding, cover w/ 3/8 foam board and start siding. (i know i’ll have to pad out the casings to wrap them with trim coil)
Option B: strip the existing siding, Add tyvek for vapor barrier tape the seams and start siding.
Option C: Strip old siding off add 1/2″ foam board and start siding.
looking for any ups or downs and of course opinions to this.
Thanks
Ray
Replies
Option B
If you leave the old siding (A), the new siding will be build out too far for the existing trim.
If you replace the old siding with foam board (C), you will again be out too far.
With option B you end up at the same level as the original siding, or at lease close enough. This, by the way, is also a good time to check the flashings and blow-in insulation, if needed.
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I'm with Ted W. on this one.
Strip and restart to have a flush finish in keeping with the original design and dimensions.
If you were installing fiber-cement or some other solid siding it would be a no-brainer -- strip off the old stuff.
But vinyl and metal sidings are very ineffective as wind barriers (even less effective than shingles), so you need some sort of secondary air infiltration protection (eg, Tyvek) if the old siding is removed (and possibly even if not). Also, vinyl/metal provides essentially no insulation value, so if the structure is underinsulated you may want to retain the R1 or so represented by the old siding (or reinstall foam board).
You also need to consider the treatment around windows and doors. Stripping the siding makes this simpler and more attractive, while re-adding insulation board will re-complicate it to a degree. (If there is furring behind the shingles, though, it may work out best to add the foam board.)
Confused enough?
Yeah i'm still comfused a bit, but getting closer to a decission. hoping for a few more opinions and feedback. Thanks for you input.To answeer your question . there is no furring behind the cedar shingles, just tar paper.
I do realize the drawback to adding more thickness to the wall siding by just covering the old with foam board and re-siding, the padding out of all existing casings and other little trim details.Thanks
Ray
And after you apply the vinyl to the 50's cape cod, it will no longer look like a cape cod! Vinylcide is not always a cool thing to do to a house!
If it is a nice looking cape cod, consider restoring it...after all it has lasted almost 60 years. It will probably outlast you.
Vinyl has not proven itself for that time length.
Vinyl is not a water tight exterior covering and will trap water in the existing wooden siding, which will rot as it cannot adequately breathe to dry. The trapped moisture will migrate into the structure.
If you wrap the windows you also trap the moisture and soon those old dry frames turn to mush under the wrap......I've seen too many improperly wrapped assemblies that have led to wall damge and window replacement.
So if vinyl is your final choice, strip the house, reflash, tyvek....all as suggested above. Think like a drop of water. Add capillary action as your worst enemy.
Goog Luck........................Iron Helix
I don't feel as though i'm doing the visual appeal of the house a dis-service by adding vinyl siding.
to answer your question, no the house is not a good looking cape.... well it is my house and will be a good looking cape when i'm done with it. the cedar shingles have been poorly painted over and they look crappy. I also have no desire to start stripping all that siding so i can have someone paint again. too much work!!Are you saying that the tyvek would be better than 3/8 foam board if i stripp the old siding??Thanks for the input.
Ray
If you are comfortable with the vinyl siding, please go ahead. It was only my point of view for discussion. No insult was intended.... :>)
As far as tyvek vs. foam, I think your climate has a big bearing on your choice of house covering. The second influence would be the nature/extent of the existing insulation. ( Please fill in your profile to help us out in answering in accordance with your climate & weather zones.)
Likewise you will need to know the properties of the foam that you may wish to use. In particular, the air barrier rating, water permeability/absorption, and the vapor permeability. These three properties combined with your climate will allow you to better chose what you cover the sheathing on the house prior to appling the vinyl.
If I remember correctly, there is a past issue of FHB that contains an article about installation of vinyl siding......maybe try a search for same.
....................Iron Helix
Certainly no insult taken:) I know that some of the others who posted answers to my post have thier opinions too. but that's what we 're all here for.I don't have any specs on the fan fold foam board. but it seems based on some of the other answers that tyvek would be the way to go under the vinyl. I'm in the northeast, hence the reason why i was thinking any extra amount of insulation can't hurt. The vinyl is showing up tomorrow but i don't have any insulaton or tyvek yet. Since i'm not installing it real soon i have some time to post questions to the folks at breaktime and get some feedback before i proceed.Thanks for the feed back.
Ray
You need to understand the factors involved that relate to the sealing of sheathing, etc:-- Insulation against heat/cold-- Air/wind infiltration-- Exterior moisture intrusion due to wind-driven rain and leakage around windows/doors, through joints, etc.-- Interior moisture transfer outwardPure insulation ("R value") is important, but only to a point.Air/wind infiltration can greatly negate the effects of insulation. This is especially true for fiberglass, if air is permitted to blow through the stud cavities. Even without the air-through-the-fiberglass problem, infiltration can cause drafts and cold spots, greatly reducing the comfort level.In rough order of their effectiveness against exterior moisture intrusion:
-- Solid siding (wood, fiber-cement, etc)
-- Shingles
-- Vinyl
-- Steel/aluminum
(I'm sure someone will argue with this order, but ya gotta start somewhere)There are various schemes to protect against this wind-driven moisture. Housewraps provide some protection, but there are rain shield schemes that provide more. But how much you'll need depends on your weather conditions, house exposure, etc.Interior moisture is an issue in areas where temps drop below 20-30F for extended periods. Moisture from inside the house leaks through the walls (especially in older homes with poor interior vapor barriers) and can potentially condense in the wall insulation, or on the surfaces of the sheathing.The trick for an exterior wind/water barrier, then, is to permit interior moisture VAPOR to escape, but prevent LIQUID moisture from entering. Most housewraps do this reasonably well.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Hey Dan thanks for the info!! About the rain schemes you were talking about that may offer more protection than say Tyvek. What kind of products are you refering to??So far my general thoughts have been to strip the old siding, add Tyvek or what ever may be better and start the siding. There is tar paper under the shinlges. any reason to leave the tar paper or put new tar paper back on poosibly along with the tyvek??Ray.
I'm not especially familiar with the rain screen products, but they've been discussed several times here. Maybe someone can fill you in or point to a prior discussion.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Yeah I thought about the tyvek rain wrap (i think that's what it's called). or that green wrap that has the vertical channels in it. I don't know if either of the two would be a better alternative then the Tyvek.
Granted the vinyl is at the house and so is the tyvek right now, but I can certainly change my mind about what type of wrap i'm going to put on becuase i have not started stripping the old stuff off yet.
You'll get a lot of Tyvek vs tar paper arguments. Tar paper isn't as good of a wind barrier, but it's generally considered to be a better rain barrier.But so much depends on how it's installed. With house wrap (Tyvek, et al) you can carefully tape all seams and around windows/doors to know you've got it airtight and reasonably watertight.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Excellent point. My old boss hated Tyvek. He would always say, Jesus never used Tyvek on the houses he framed.My house is 120 years old. After an addition, the original felt under the clapboards was still fuzzy and dry. I went with quartersawn red western clapboards pre-primed on both sides. I'm building my first spec home. I've got fiber cement lap siding with shakes on the gables. I keep telling people that there will be no vinyl on my house. I don't want to be a downer about your siding that you are probably putting on now, but if you don't like to paint, use those perm-a-coat guys to put the 'super' paint on. if i kept vinyl off one house today, it was a good day
I know , I know , it's tough to be a carpenter who works with wood all the time on others houses and when it comes time for my own house i decide to put vinyl siding on it. This is my first house and it has been a fixer upper since we started it but it looks great inside. I do realize that i could have gone with the whole fiber cement thing, but once again it needs paint..... I dont' like to paint and i'm not hiring someone else to paint my house either. So i have decided on vinyl instead.However i have chosen a siding with a blened color which is unlike the usual siding in my nieghborhood.The siding just showed up on friday. I have not stripped any of the old siding yet.
I'ts strange that on my own house i keep wonder wether to strip the old stuff off or leave it and side over it. (i know i asked that originally). Based on some of the other feed back i can't help but wonder .... wouldn't the old siding protect the sheathing better than the tyvek after it has been stripped. Or it that just crazy..I have a big roll of tyvek just waiting in the wing for me to take off the old siding and install it..... only time will tell I guess.Thanks for the input guysRay
FWIW, when we resided I stripped off the old siding and installed Tyvek. We've not been sorry.Of course, this is Minnesota, the siding I removed was punky hardboard, and I replaced it with tempered Masonite (which would still be the best siding made if it were still made).
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
BTW, the fan-fold foam board is lousy insulation and a lousy wind barrier. It's basically used to provide a flat nailing surface -- the cheapest material available that will do that.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
There are vinyl sidings that have foam in each piece of siding already. Besides insulating, it had the advantage of making the siding stiffer, but I don't know if it's worth the extra price.
>>There are vinyl sidings that have foam in each piece of siding already. Besides insulating, it had the advantage of making the siding stiffer
Its a sham (vinyl with foam). It has no insulating value what so ever since it "floats" beneath the vinyl siding and cold air gets behind it.
And it would'nt serve the purpose of flattening out the wall for the new siding. thats all that foam board does for you anyway, the R-value is so minimal and it does'nt allow moisture migration like tyvek. so if he's gonna strip the cedar off there's no need to add foam board, just house wrap
Yeah i have seen those around , have'nt used any yet. A friend of mine said he tried some and liked it. Wether or not it is better than the regular stuff I don't really know.
Like one of the other guys said i don't think it's really worth the extra$$ you pay for it. it' just sound kind of like a sham...Ray
You have to do it right -- if you are not going back with similar shingles, you should go with a Hardie Plank type of siding -- vinyl is for coke bottles and cheap rain coats -- no matter how hard you try and dress it up it is vinyl. Earlier poster said "retain the R1 or so represented by the old siding (or reinstall foam board)" it takes an inch of wood to equal R1 -- strip the old, know what you have, take care of any weak sports , 1/4 foam board, 30lb felt, flash, and Hardie Plank -- it is money that will come back to you time and time again -- less maintainance - the sale price will compensate you unless you are going out feet first --
Have I ever use vinyl? yes - it was a step up from alu at the time and a Hardie product just did not exist -- could have used "real wood" but did not what the maintenance aspect -- My .02 -- all the best Dudley
Well i'm going to do my best to be attentitive to the details since it is my house ,but in the end, yes it is still just vinyl.
I think vinyl gets a bad rap becuase of all the hack jobs that gon on out there. I think it can be done and done well so it does'nt look so plastic.I had thougght about the whole hardi plank idea but did not pursue it too far.
By the way any idea how much more it cost over vinyl?? I have'nt priced out the fiber cement siding so i'm not sure how expensive the product is.Thanks for the input
Ray
Option B.
Do tear off old siding and add the waterproof barrier like Tywek or WeatherSmart paper. Also would recommend fiber cement siding instead of vinyl for durability, aesthetics and fire resistance.
Here on photo I am attaching a project recently completed with the fiber cement siding.
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