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ready made Granite counter tops anyone?

ponytl | Posted in General Discussion on August 23, 2008 03:40am

my local “surplus outlet” it’s a chian i think owned by bartons… kinda the harbor freight of building materials… has these really nice looking granite counter tops… they have maybe 3 colors… and  10-12 different sizes… they have a 44″ island finished all 4 edges from 8ft to 12ft long… 18″ bartops same deal… same thing with counter tops but they are only finished on 2 edges and have rts & lefts… and they have 6″ backsplashs… costs seem to run about $10 sf   

good looking stuff… the edge treatment is nice… the range of sizes would let you do most things… i guess you’d have to be comfortable cutting and drilling it… but you could do most average kitchens for about $500 in materals or less…

anyone tried it?

p

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Replies

  1. frammer52 | Aug 23, 2008 03:51pm | #1

    Not yet, but will when I remodel the kit. for the wife!

  2. alwaysoverbudget | Aug 23, 2008 04:04pm | #2

    i'm trying to figure out how to use one right now,the pre made around here come in at 108" i need 110.5 . all i can figure is split it at the sink and use 2 .they get 300 for each. there is a guy down in arkansa with slabs at 200 each. larry

    if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?

    1. BUIC | Aug 23, 2008 04:56pm | #3

        Use a 2 1/2" thick backsplash at one end for spices or what not.

        "It's not a mistake, we planned it like that!"

      buic

  3. Karl | Aug 23, 2008 05:59pm | #4

    I am a small scale fabricator and get a lot of calls from bargain hunting remodelers looking for someone to install their prefab granite.

    I typically decline the job as I am more of a fabricator than an installer. Occasionally I take the project if it is too easy to pass up or very close to home.

    I have run into a few drawbacks to the prefab tops.

    Continuous countertops with sink cut outs are sufficiently fragile that the backside/underside need reinforcing with steel rods to safely transport and install. This and polished sink cutouts for undermount sinks defy the ability or tools of the average amateur installer.

    The edge thickness and edge profile can vary slightly between pieces so you can end up with a really ugly transition from one piece to the next on the seam.

    In the past the quality of the edge profile and polish has been very inconsistent and mediocre but it seems less frequent in recent years.

    90 degree corners require what I call a "dogleg" seam. The seam looks like a mitred corner for the first 1 1/2" then it turns and runs parallel/perpindicular to the pieces being joined for 24". These seams can be tricky to get tight if you don't have precise cutting techniques.

    My biggest issue with corner seams is the pieces are occasionally "taco'd". In other words there is a noticeable curve across the 25 1/2" dimension of the countertop so when you go to join it to a flat edge of a countertop there is lippage along a portion of the seam. There are tricks to flattening some of that curve but it can be a challenge even for a fully equipped fabricator/installer with a full arsenal of tools.

    The best approach is to carry a 2foot straigt edge and some calipers to check for flatness and edge thickness as you are loading the slabs

    The prefab tops are fine for galley kitchens with self rimming sinks and no seams but I think we will see a lot of botched installations with them that people will try and pass off as acceptable. Installation isn't rocket science but it takes a handful of jobs or more to work the bugs out of the process and a DIY'er needs to be really clever and perceptive to get their first installation right. I am not saying it can't be done, I just think a lot of people will try one or two prefab installs, make a lot of avoidable mistakes and learn from them and then never do another countertop install. They will be excited enough about the fact that they saved a ton of money on their countertops that they can overlook the shortcomings or flaws of the work that they did.

    I want to say that this scenario will undermine the status granite has as a premium countertop but the sad fact of the matter is that there are a lot of fly by night fabricators doing complete garbage work even without the prefab tops.

    I still find sufficient work in the higher end homes. Kitchens with unique curves, giant islands, specific color choices or a specific edge treatment will continue to be fabricated from full slabs.

    Even after ten years everyone still wants granite. I haven't seen anything making a significant dent in its popularity and can't imagine what it will be but I am curious.

    I am so weary of granite that I like the thought of combining stainless steel countertops and wooden countertops with granite countertops depending on the use each area of the kitchen will see.

    Good luck
    Karl

    1. ponytl | Aug 24, 2008 01:57am | #5

      I get kitchen & bath mag. I think the last issue already pointed out that very high end designs are looking outside of granite since it has be come so "common"  seems people with the most money don't want what just "anyone" can have...

      on a side note i ran up on a tool today... it's a big router mounted in a large multi wheeled "sled" it had a large 3" diamond bit that looks to be to put bevels on stone or granite maybe... seems the name on it was inter-tec or something like that... the wheels were mounted in clusters of 3 and ther had to be 20+ wheels  the sled thing was maybe 18" x 20" does this describe anything you have ever seen?  the price seemed cheap and pretty sure i'll go back and get it from the guy... maybe i could bevel the edges of my concrete countertops...

      thanks for the tips on the china granite...  if i do anything with it it's prob just be in conjunction with my concrete like use'n the premade 18" bartops...

      p

      p

      1. Karl | Aug 25, 2008 06:13am | #15

        Ponytl,
        The tool you found sounds like a stone router. They are useful if you have a lot of edge profiling to do but not really necessary if you are doing the prefab tops.The bits cost a few hundred dollars a piece for them. Even without the machine you can freehand shape small amounts of bullnose or bevel profiles with a diamond cup wheel if you need to add some edging to the prefab tops.I wouldn't buy a router unless you plan on processing full slabs into finished countertops.Karl

        1. ponytl | Aug 25, 2008 06:49am | #16

          man thanks... i found what i saw on UTUBE made by inter-tool  intertool.com powered by a router....

          lists for $1400 without a bit... this one has a bit looks like new and i can get it for $200  pretty sure i'll have it before lunch... do i need it? well... in my world... i get the tool then proceed to make the need since... "well i have tool to do it with"

          right now i cast my concrete in lexan forms so it comes out so smooth it doesn't require polish'n .... but  grinding lets you show stone glass or whatever you might have added to the mix... and i'm limited on what edges i can cast in an easy way...

          besides it's a tool.... a cool tool few have.... need i say more...

          thanks again

          p

    2. wallyo | Aug 24, 2008 03:16am | #7

      karl If you could read my above post and let me know if you have advice on how to do a sink cut out at a reasonable cost ones self. What one bit would you use to do the cut alone? Polishing I have figured out I have a friend that has a set of pads. Also faucet if doing a one hole faucet can you get by with a a carbide hole saw or do you need a diamond hole saw?Wallyo.

      1. Karl | Aug 24, 2008 06:32pm | #12

        Wallyo,
        Go watch a guy do a sink cut out at an established shop. Most shop laborers use a 4 1/2" diamond blade, for the rough cut out, some kind of 3" drum (diamond, silicon carbide stone, or silicon carbide sandpaper), 7" silicon carbide sandpaper discs (60, 120 and 220 grit) and 4" diamond pads (500, 800, 1000, 2000 grit). It helps to have some 3" velcro backers for the diamond pads so you can polish the radius corners.There is a big learning curve on doing polished sink cutouts. It isn't really possible to explain all the steps in a narrative even though it is relatively simple in process. Just watching one pro take it from template to a sanded opening that is ready to polish will teach one the basic process very quickly.As with most things, the actual work is easy when everything goes as planned. It is fixing the errors/goofs that make it actual work.My shop guy and I are pretty meticulous on the sink openings so we go pretty slow compared to some. Doing a double sink hole (Large bowl on one side, smaller on the other so five corner hole) takes a minimum of 4 hours and can burn up a the better part of a day if there are any surprises.Get some scrap granite big enough to accomodate a sink cut out and practice some before you try the real thing.Another way to practice, though it sounds dangerous to me, would be to cut the rough sink cutout in plywood with a skilsaw. Chop out the radius corners undersize with straight cuts and rake the waste out of the curves with the spinning blade. If you can figure out how to make it work in wood with a only a skilsaw then you should be able to do it with stone slabs. It is alot more dangerous to do it with wood and a skilsaw so maybe just work out the concept mentally and then tackle a piece of stone with a 4 1/2" diamond blade. I prefer to use a little handheld wetsaw but a lot of guys do it dry with an angle grinder.You need a diamond core drill for plumbing holes, I get them for 40 bucks.
        Karl

        1. wallyo | Aug 24, 2008 07:32pm | #13

          Karl thanks for the input I have watched some videos online and it amazes me that a skilled fabricator can take an angle grinder or small saw with a diamond blade and get a round circle or oval! Granted these are ten minute videos and in no way replace four hours of work. But from the video I don't know how they can even see what they doing there is so much dust dry or spray wet that the top is not even visible. It would take a lot of counters for a small shop to pay back a !7,000 CNC machine so I can see wh small shops use this method. As for the blade is it a standard 4.5 blade or beveled or segmented?I have found some 1/2 shank diamond router bits, http://www.bluediamondtools.com/showitem.cfm?itemnum=574&catnum=0, (use the arrows on the side to read the whole list), with a cove 1916-0006 or flat bottom (as well as 1/4) . Can these be set in a variable speed plunge router and used to cut or shape a sink hole lowering the bit a fraction of inch at a time? If not what are they meant for the vendors web site gives little info? What does POS 1 and POS 2 mean? I notice the grit is different one is 30/40 the other 5060. I am planning to make my first sink cut as simple by using as square a sink that I can find.Thanks in advance for your info. I am planning on going at this very slow. I noticed you are in N Ca i don't know how north but I got my granite in Hayward, at JerongWallyoEdited 8/24/2008 12:40 pm ET by wallyo

          Edited 8/24/2008 6:36 pm ET by wallyo

          1. Karl | Aug 25, 2008 05:09am | #14

            Wallyo, Pos 1 routers are used for fast rough shaping where a lot of stock has to be removed. For ex, taking a flat edge to a full bullnose. Over time the bit wears and the profile gets pretty ragged but it doesn't matter if you are following up with a Pos 2 as it will remove the small amount of material left by the Pos1 router bit. The pos 2 router leaves a nice smooth finish on the edge profile that needs minimal sanding prior to polishing.To sum up pos 1 is a imprecise heavy stock removal bit, pos 2 is designed to remove very minimal stock but create a very smooth precise profile.I don't know anything about 1/2" shank router bits for stone. The only reason I would use a router for a sink is to get a 3/8" radius 1/4 round profile on a polished sink opening. I never see anyone using expensive tooling to do sink cutouts.Karl

          2. wallyo | Aug 25, 2008 08:05am | #19

            Karl I will try and call the supplier of the bits tomorrow and get more info, on them and there use.Thanks again for your thoughts and input.Wallyo

            Edited 8/25/2008 11:48 am ET by wallyo

    3. User avater
      Matt | Aug 24, 2008 05:02pm | #9

      Great post!  Thanks much for the "data".  (as opposed to opinions)

  4. wallyo | Aug 24, 2008 03:07am | #6

    I have done it and just brought some for my current kitchen 300 for three pieces. It does require lots of muscle and patience. Jigs for cutting the splice on 90 degree corners. I use a small wet saw and make several passes lowering the blade a little at a time for straight cuts on the dogleg seam as karl calls it. I make a jig that clamps on the edge so that i can ride the saw downwards for the 1.5 that karl talks of with the blade set at a 45. Too bad they just don't make the stuff with a square edge would make an install easier, use a fresh blade. The web has more and more diamond; hole saws, grinder blades, polishing pads, etc every day even ebay is a source.

    If you adhere it down be careful as to what adhesives you use, some will bleed and stain the granite. The first we did had a top mount sink. I need to figure how to do an under mount sink for the next. Wish i could find a diamond router cutting bit to fit a 1/2 router that would be ideal to do a cut out. Clamp a template down, bit with a guide collar on a 1/2 router a bit of water and go at it. I have found 60 grit spiral glass cutting bits at C R laurance with a 1/2 inch shaft but none for granite don't know it they would work. Cutting bits seem to be for a grinder or for a CNC machine.

    Wallyo

    I would get the granite cut and fitted and do the sink cut out in place it possible the less moving it the less likely to break it.

    1. ponytl | Aug 24, 2008 07:28am | #8

      as you said look to ebay... the diamond hole saws are pretty cheap...  if you google "granite edge grinding" you will find the diamond router bits you ask about... saw them today... for around $100... seems there alot of  protable edge profileing tools made from 4.5" grinders...  

      many thanks for the input

      p

  5. User avater
    Dreamcatcher | Aug 24, 2008 05:21pm | #10

    I had thought about that before too; to install in my own home. Awhile back, I got a catalog from a place called Jerong Marble Products (jerongmarble.com) that is a SanFran based China importer. They have lots of styles and some great deals....I saw one that was about $7 sqft. that I liked and would buy. But then I thought about my overhead for the install. Being a pro remodeler I have alot of the stuff but am still lacking about $300-$400 worth to complete an install. In the end after factoring in what I am worth in labor and thinking about the quality of the results I think I could come out ahead but not by that much. Still, I am always looking for new challenges and a new set of skills; I think about the killing I could make if I got good at it and recommended myself to clients instead of the local fab shop.

    Hey!!! Isn't there a homebuilding magazine out there that could do an article relating to the install of prefab granite countertops? Naw, will never happen. I prefer more articles on how to install windows anyway.

    gk

    1. wallyo | Aug 25, 2008 08:01am | #18

      Dreamcatcher
      I got mine from Jerong. Read above post.Wallyo

  6. User avater
    Matt | Aug 24, 2008 05:33pm | #11

    can you (or anyone else) E-mail me (or post) the names of these places?

    1. wallyo | Aug 25, 2008 07:46am | #17

      Matt I got mine from Jerong marblehttp://www.jerongmarble.com/They are in the bay area we were there for a vacation picked it up the last day even talked to the owner and other contractors. The contractors I ran into said there stuff is the best quality in the area, that there are places in the same area that sell for 10 - 20 LESS but thinner and not as good a finish. They ship across the nation have too much to choose from prices start at 69 for 2X8 foot and go up to 400+. Ours were 99 apiece for two front bull nose only, 109 for three side bull nose. I have their price list on PDF if you wantme to e mail it to you let me know.I have also ordered from http://www.doityourselfgranite.com/Not as cheap as jerong they have sample kits, and some mounting and finishing products.I think ponytl was taking of http://www.bargain-outlets.com/locations.php but he will need to speak to that.Wallyo

      1. User avater
        Matt | Aug 25, 2008 01:27pm | #20

        Thanks wallyo.

        Yes, please E-mail me the .pdf price list.

        Not sure I'd use it on a professional basis, but for example I have a friend who is big on DIY, wants granite, but can't afford the normal route.  I think they are the type who can forgo a bit on the quality install side to get the bargain.

        I guess the caveat is that you can't use undermount kitchen sinks unless you take it to a fabricator, which I guess it might be hard to find one to play that game...

        Could a straight cut be done with just a skill saw and a diamond blade?  I guess you might need a real granite installer to do the sink cut-out and faucet holes though.

        Roughly how much does an 26"x8' piece of that Jerong granite weigh?  I read it's 3/4" with a 1.5" built up edge....  Seems like delivery could be prohibitively expensive, especially since I live across the country.

        Edited 8/25/2008 6:31 am ET by Matt

        1. wallyo | Aug 25, 2008 05:07pm | #21

          Matt they told me one piece weighs 200 lbs. Two guys to lift it at least. The guys that work there make loading it look easy, Yes included in the price is loading it in your truck. If you are some distance away and do have it shipped it would be best to buy a crate of five from Jerong. If you can find some one to share it with or do every counter in the house with it i.e. all bath rooms, kitchen, laundry, outside grill area etc. if you buy the cheaper stuff at the price they sell it for, you can afford an extra or two as a spare or just in case.Wallyo

          Edited 8/25/2008 11:55 am ET by wallyo

          1. User avater
            Matt | Aug 26, 2008 01:49pm | #22

            >> The guys that work there make loading it look easy. <<

             

            Yea - I've watched granite being installed several times... :-)

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