Replies

1. 
   Pi | Nov 28, 2001 01:59am | #1

   *
   I am always enthralled and impressed on how much mathematics is involved in all building projects....I am involved in a project(study) on how to reach ""unreachable" kids and get them involved in mathematics....

   I can't pay you, but I would really appreciate any feedback on how you learned that mathematics was/is involved in your craft.........Any input would be appreciated....Many of my students will never attend college, but have capabilities in mathematics....They just have to be convinced of this........

1. 
   Pro-Dek | Nov 28, 2001 02:40am | #2

   *Pi-Great topic!- Math has always been the hardest thing for me to learn. I was never good at it in school,nor did I see the importance of it for the future.Boy, was I wrong.I wish I had a teacher that made it a fun subject.Math is everywhere!-making change,miles per gal,gallons per hour,Stair rise and run,Pythagorean Theorem Method (roofers)I'm still learning that one.Now I have to teach 25-30 year old guys how to find 3/8th's or 7/16th's on a tape measure.I would recommend bringing in a guest speaker once in awhile to show-how to make a set of stairs,How to make a roof,how to figure cubic feet of conrete for a foundation wall,or even a cashier from Safeway w/apron to show how to make change.Every person you bring in will show the importance of basic math and how we use it every day.Most of all- make it fun!Bob

1. 
   Keith_C | Nov 28, 2001 03:41am | #3

   *You've got to show how it affects their lives. So problem #1) Tommy's mom gave him $125.00 for his weeks allowance on monday. Tommy wants a 40oz. for chillin' in the morning and it cost $2.25. He also needs at least a couple oz. of smokage for the day which cost him $50.00/oz. A couple of lines in the evening will set him back $10.00. At Tommy's present rate of consumption, at what time on Tuesday will he have to go steal from local construction sites some tools and materials to pawn for more cash?

1. 
   JonC_ | Nov 28, 2001 03:49am | #4

   *How old are these kids Pi?JonC

1. 
   Rich_ | Nov 28, 2001 04:46am | #5

   *I remember one of the most fun math classes I ever had. A college course in technical math, mostly practical math for the shop but I perked right up when we got involved with that year's America Cup races. Ground speed, wind correction, ETA to the next mark got me going. A couple of years later I found myself having to figure where to fell a very tall tree. I needed to know it's height before I dropped it.(Too rotten to climb, inaccessable to a boom truck and surrounded by houses.) After awhile I figured I could measure it's shadow, rough calculate angle of sun (I used a framing square and a two foot spirit level), and use a long forgotten formula to guesstimate it's true height. Then I paced the distance I would need--right between a chicken coop and a barn. A crowd of about 30 people watched it fall. Later, a retired forester congratulated me. I wouldn't have felt very comfortable about it if I didn't know the tree height.Lots of pratical things like that.

2. 
   Pi | Nov 28, 2001 05:08am | #6

   *10-12 years old.....

3. 
   Pi | Nov 28, 2001 05:11am | #7

   *Keith, I really admire your compassion......Hope it doesn't bite you in the ass someday......I know, I can't take a joke.....

4. 
   Pi | Nov 28, 2001 05:21am | #8

   *Thanks, Rich....It is a long forgotten formula....I remember going out and measuring the shadow, too......You're right about connecting math to their lives.....These kids, if they're lucky and work hard, will get into the trades.....I would like to find a magic way to sell them on the importance of pursuing mathematics and how it will benefit.....I've seen the works in the Gallery(the houses, the decks, the beautiful way design works).....No matter where we are, these kids are either going to be our future workers or our liabilities.....

5. 
   Ryan_C | Nov 28, 2001 05:30am | #9

   *I'm probably of no help because math was always my best subject.I had a physics class in H.S. that was a blast. Built catapults, flying machines, bridges of straws, all sorts of stuff and even competed with other kids from other schools.My dad was an engineer and I grew up understanding how math worked in the real world, that you could pretty much predict how anything was going to go if you could get the formula right.But it was that physics class where I first made the hard connection between numbers on paper and real world phenomenon.Finished Calculus 1 in H.S., took calc 1&2, multivariable calc, differential equations, numerical analysis, computational analysis, linear algebra, and a "fun" theoretical mathematics class in college.And math reached the point for me where it no longer applied to the real world. I was doing math again that was purely useful only as cool tricks on paper. I hated the higher maths. Even calculus 1 & 2 was applicable to my real world. But beyond that it became silly. I struggled in college the last year, maybe two just because I lost interest. Made it through barely with a BSME and never actually used my degree. It got me a job but it was a job where I never had to do anything more that algebra.I couldn't do H.S. calc now if my life depended on it.

6. 
   Rich_ | Nov 28, 2001 06:52am | #10

   *Pi,Instead of that "Johnny has 7 apples, gives 3 to Suzie..." crap bring them into real world stuff.If weight X is at arm Y what is the moment? Use this to calculate center of pressure. Apply on seesaw to verify accuracy.Here's a good one: from the public notices in the newspaper or from the county recorder's office, get a lot description. Have someone read the text and others--divided into teams--plot on graph paper the shape of the lot. Afterwards, calculate acreage and introduce multiplier as supplied by assessor's office. Oh, what fun.Using only a sight level and a tape measure, calculate the height above ground of something at X distance.Under teacher-defined parameters, students design and build watertight hull. Calculate displacement.

7. 
   kai_ | Nov 28, 2001 07:27am | #11

   *i even a cashier from Safeway w/apron to show how to make changeYep--and maybe fast food workers could get a bonus if they know how to add and make change when the power goes out.

8. 
   Mongo_ | Nov 28, 2001 07:28am | #12

   *One of the treats of homeschooling is that it has gotten me back to the basics, and seeing them through the eyes of a couple of rugrats. Kids are now 11 and 9.Pi, we pull everything out of the textbook and give it a real-world application, either connected to projects around the house or outdoors.Most recent was when we were rebuilding the campfire circle out in the woods behind the house. Did all the circle geometry forumulas and applied them to how many feet of rocks will we need to ring the circle, etc.We've also done height estimation, both with houses and trees. a few weeks back when eplaining SOHCAHTOA for tree heights, my son put a stop to the sine and cosine discussion and said "if you stand in a spot where a line from your feet to the top of the tree makes a 45 degree angle, you don't need to use any calculations....just measure from your feet to the tree and that's the height of the tree." Of course, it just happened to be a tree that Dad was planning to drop, so I did, and they measured the height to find he was right.I though that pretty good reasoning for a 9 year-old. Math can be fun and it can be practical. As Ryan wrote, physics is where the fun is...levers, pulleys, etc. They love that stuff.Construction can be great for math...how many yards of concrete for a given foundation, how many sheets of ply to cover a certain wall, how many square feet of flooring for a given room, how much will the floring cost at "X" per foot, how many squares of shingles to cover a roof, gallons of paint to paint a room at 400 sq ft coverage per gallon, how many nails in a 4' x 8' sheet of ply with nails 6" oc on the edges and 12' oc in the field w 16" oc framing.We had a great thread on this a couple of years ago...lots of ideas. Couldn't hunt it down in a SEARCH though.I have to say that I really love math. All forms, all levels. Took a lot in collij, bs in engineering, ms in applied math.Converting word problems into equations and then working to discover the answer is one of their "fun" things to do. Instead of looking for out-of-state license plates or singin songs during car rides, my kids ask for word problems. Go figure (no pun intended).

9. 
   kai_ | Nov 28, 2001 08:32am | #13

   *Thanks for this topic, Pi! Pro is right, math is everywhere--carpentry, plumbing, electricity, concrete, tile, etc., cooking, hairdressing, interior decorating, gardening . . . gosh, just making sure your paycheck is correct.Maybe ask the kids to write down their dream job on a piece of paper, and a job done by someone they respect on another piece of paper (my thinking on the latter is that that person might be willing to go out of their way to speak, in honor of the kid), and/or you or a class member selects (solicits) a community member willing to explain how math fits into their job, selecting as great a variety of occupations as you can. You might be able to group them, of sorts, as well. Also, I wouldn't ask them to commit for longer than 30 minutes, including time for questions, so 2-3 back-to-back is probably the max the kids could sit still for?? It would be nice to have two professionals that work closely w/each other, at one 50-minute session.Ask the kids to take notes--a minimum of two words (that will remind them later, in case you or other students want them to give a fuller report :-)one in the I Like/Might Be Interested In This columnone in the I Don't Like/Would Not Be Interested In This column, and, maybe a third column:What Does This Word Mean? That last column could easily be turned into a math glossary for the kids. If they want to self-publish, more math! LOL! Inescapable!Maybe consider asking them to keep a rating chart of each occupation based on the type of math they use--their opinions might change. Give the guest speakers a Certificate of Appreciation or whatever you want to call it--their mileage at least s/b deductible for volunteering their time--w/a nice border :-) Let the kid or kids who suggested the person/occupation hand out the cert(s). Make sure they applaud after the guest says Thank You, not before :-)Have the kids write a thank you note w/any theme, (I think a question--after the thanks--is also acceptable), providing it relates either to math or something the presenter said.Another project might be to challenge the kids to come up w/a job/life situation that wouldn't require math.At that age, they've been exposed to a lot of fractals--maybe a slideshow of neat stuff like that?Have any of them wanted the big bucks engineers make? They gotta take a lot of math.Have any thought of being an animator? More math!Best wishes, Pi! I think your opportunities are limitless. Of course, you are also well aware of the relation between math and music and math and plants --amazingly complex, yet so basic.Please keep us posted!

10. 
    Pi | Nov 28, 2001 01:47pm | #14

    *LOL, Rich.....I don't use "crap" math.....Thanks for the plotting on graph paper suggestion.....I've used graph paper to design a room with furniture, but that's a good one.....I like the suggestions....

11. 
    Pi | Nov 28, 2001 01:54pm | #15

    *Ryan, this was my point.....I can teach all the forumulas for finding area, perimeter, areas of triangles, etc. and the kids just don't transfer it.....I understand completely that until mathematics becomes "real" and useful, it is just numbers....I would love to get these kids involved in some kind of building project in their community(inner city) as most of them will probably never see a classroom outside of high school.....I hated algebra!!

12. 
    Pi | Nov 28, 2001 01:58pm | #16

    *Mongo, cool....This project is funded by an Eisenhower Grant and we do have funds to bring in people.....As I told Ryan, I want to get the kids involved in some sort of building project....They are inner city kids and are not around anyone who builds, measures, etc.....I truly believe that kids learn when there is a connection....Love the circle connection....Can I borrow your 9 year old??

13. 
    Pi | Nov 28, 2001 02:06pm | #17

    *Uh, Kai, I think you just wrote one of my proposals!!! ......Great ideas....I've done a whole series of lessons where we think of any profession and then ask "do they use math".....The kids were amazed.....The first one that always comes up is "basketball player or football player"......irks me.......These kids don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming major league players, yet that is their focus......Ah, fractals.....Cynthia Lanius uses the mathematics of fractals.....Also targets getting girls involved in mathematics.....BTW, I'm still looking at how many girls vs boys answer in math class.....Haven't developed any theories yet......But, that's another project.....Thanks, Kai.....Happy Holidays.....

14. 
    doug_hubbard | Nov 28, 2001 03:40pm | #18

    *Pi-How about working with the shop teacher to build a scale model house. Your students provide the real world numbers and off you go

15. 
    Boss_Hog | Nov 28, 2001 03:57pm | #19

    *> hese kids don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming major league players, yet that is their focus......Maybe you could have them calculate the odds of any one of them becoming a major sports star?The suggestion of physics is probbaly a good one. I once did an "engineering" demo for a group of scouts. One of the things I had them do was move a car (With the parking brake lightly set) across a parking lot with a block and tackle. Had them figure out about how much they were pulling, and multiplied it times the number of ropes. We also got some blueprints and went over them with the kids, showing them a bit about reading them. Not sure how you could work math into that, unless you do some estimating, as has been suggested. Maybe just figuring out the square footage of the house?Then I showed them pictures of bridges, and we talked about how they held up weight. There are just a few basic types of bridges, and there's stuff out there on the internet about them. You might be able to work some math into it by figuring out the forces in different members of a truss bridge, or maybe just have them figure out which parts are in tension and which are in compression. That's all I can think of at the moment. Hope the project goes well for you. Please keep us posted.

16. 
    Mongo_ | Nov 28, 2001 05:28pm | #20

    *I've gone into the bowels of the NYC public school system for "talks." Every session is different, you never know where it will lead.The last time was right along the lines of this thread. It wasn't set up as a "math" or "physics" class, but as a more generic "applying classroom knowledge to the real world."Teacher gave me a litle intro, and the first question after she was done was about flying jets. So...we jumped into Bernoulli. A couple Q's on the WTC, and why didn't the Empire State fall way back when led to a quick yak and a few blackboard calcs on mass and momentum. Then more aviation...they FREAKED when we ran some numbers on how planes actually fly...how much lift can be generated by a simple curve.On to the favorite of the boys...flying fighters and blowing up targets. Slid into the physics of gravity, windage, falling bodies, yadda, yadda.A quick question about the Leonid meteor shower and why it occurs the same time each year segued into orbital mechanics...then into the space program...weightlessness, low-earth shuttle-type orbits vs stationary overhead geosynchonous orbits...One of my favorite things to hear is when a kid says "oh, so if that happens, then blah, blah, blah is why THIS happens." Bingo! Then it's not just knowledge, it's knowledge that can be applied, and that's when the light bulb comes on...and usually stays on.Our one hour session went to about 2 1/2 hours. Lots of fun.It seems as though you have a vested interest in your kids, and that's wonderful. Keep it fun, keep it interesting, but keep them learning!

17. 
    jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Nov 28, 2001 05:30pm | #21

    *If any of them are interested in sports, that's a goldmine of numbers - batting averages, shooting percentages, winning percentages...that would be tapping into their interests. Check out NBA statistics, maybe each interested student could follow their favorite player, or team, through a season, compiling stats. Maybe even figure out why some players make so much more money than others. Why are the players with the top shooting percentages always the tall guys who play near the basket? Why is a player who shoots 40% from three point range as productive a scorer as another player who shoots 50% from inside the arc? Football would have less obvious individual stats, but whatever sport they're interested in, I'm sure there are fascinating numbers for them to compare. Baseball is probably the best number game, because they play 6 days a week, but they only play 6 months a year.What about trying to calculate some type of income per fan ratio? Anyway, it could go on and on, depending on that particular student's interest and capabilities.Pi, if you send me your mailing address, I'll send you some manipulatives we make that a lot of kids that age really enjoy.

18. 
    Mongo_ | Nov 28, 2001 05:30pm | #22

    *"Can I borrow your 9 year old??"Yes, but to insure proper adult supervision, you'll have to take Rebecca, too!

19. 
    Mongo_ | Nov 28, 2001 05:36pm | #23

    *jb, We were at a Norwich Navigators game (AA baseball) this past summer, I took the cub scouts. One of them brought up Alex Rodriguez's contract numbers, so we did some quick calculations between innings. dollars per game, per inning, per at bat, per hit...the kids were shocked. totally amazed.Did the same for a pitcher...I think it was Clemens...dollars per game, per inning, per pitch, per strikeout, etc.Lots of "WOW"s.Maybe at the next game we'll have the Pete Rose session...point spreads, how many bookies to spread the bet over so as to not attact attention, over/under calcs, odds making...

20. 
    Just_Another_Guy | Nov 28, 2001 05:44pm | #24

    *Alot of kids in that age group I think would be into biking. I know when I was that age it was a hoot to take our bikes to an abandoned lot and see who could jump the farthest. Why not work with them on building a bike - what are the gear ratios, what is the frame geometry. Why would a road bike have a different gearing and frame set up than a BMX or a Mountain Bike. This would pull together alot of Physics and geometry, and allow some design ideas. Just an idea.

21. 
    Stephen_Hazlett | Nov 28, 2001 05:47pm | #25

    *Pi, My wife is a teacher and she tries to bring the classroom into the real world.She is a 4th grade science teacher and with Xmas approaching she will doing a unit on sedimentary rock.To cap off the unit the kids make "sedimentary rock" xmas pesents for their parents.I am a roofer,so a couple of years ago we cut slate,punched holes and stenciled xmas ornaments.Last year we made stepping stones for the garden.Several different layers of different types of concrete with sea shells embedded in them.( I was the guest concrete mixer---what an honor).For math I have been pushing this idea for years. On a dry sunny day take the kids out into the parkinglot with chalk lines and tape measures. the kids can experiment with rt. angle geometry on a really big( cool) scale. A sq.plus Bsq.=Csq. the 3,4,5 triangle which lays out perfect right angles no matter how BIG you make them. With the chalk line and tape each kid or group of kids can lay out their own triangle and calc. area etc. Lay out a really big one like 100 plus ft. per side as a demo,and then let the kids layout smaller ones inside yours.My son's know I have very limited math skills but there are some math applications I expect to handle perfectly.We pound into them the importance of being able to estimate materials needed for each job accurately,the ability to price effectively and profitably,The organizational skills and people skills needed and the value of advertising( and what advertising really is). The idea is that often simple math skills seperate employee from employer

22. 
    Stephen_Hazlett | Nov 28, 2001 05:59pm | #26

    *Pi, you might also want to look into the Cuyahoga Valley Enviornmental Education Center( I think that is the name) A year ago my son spent several weekends involved in a program where the students there studied several projects and worked with,among other things,global positioning sattelite systems. His stint at what we call "smart camp" earned him a $200 stipend from some grant money.( So he learned that applying your brain =money). Later on my wife went to "smart camp" as an instructor of some sort.

23. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:06am | #27

    *Ron, bridges are a great idea.....Cleveland has numerous types of bridges in an area known as the Flats right on the Cuyahoga River.....I've taken kids on a trip down the Cuyahoga on a local ship and they are fascinated by the way bridges work.....Another idea for my lesson plan book!

24. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:08am | #28

    *doug, if we had a shop teacher in our elementary school, I would.....Wait a minute, maybe I can hook up with a shop teacher in one our closest high schools.....Thanks.....The fifth graders do a robotics project each year through Invent America....You should see some of the things they come up with.....Takes a lot of time and a lot of effort, but worth it.....

25. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:11am | #29

    *How were those bowels, Mongo??I think people would be amazed at how these inner city kids are really thirsty for knowledge....I always say when a student can grasp an idea and carry it further the "lightbulb" effect.....The light suddenly goes on and he/she can see how things connect.....I'm so glad you are carrying your expertise into the classroom.....

26. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:17am | #30

    *jim, the sports angle is an excellent way to get kids to see how and why we need to learn averaging, medians, means, etc.....I didn't mean to put sports down as I am from the home of the Browns and the Indians! You ideas about the NBA are great....Our basketball team(the Cavs) are not so good right now, but their stats would be a starting point.....Maybe I could talk some of the Cavs players to come in and explain it better.....We do have Indian players come in during the spring and talk about their need to understand mathematics and how it effects their game.....Our school population is about 20% Hispanic and a lot of our players are Hispanic.....Thanks, Carole

27. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:31am | #31

    *Stephen, our playground would be perfect as it is asphalt and devoid of any playground equipment.....I have done measuring the perimeter of our playgound using a meter wheel....Your idea of making geometric shapes is a good one.....We once used a string, sidewalk chalk and a pole and used it as a compass to draw a huge circle and measured the radius and diameter.....Really brought it home.....If I could only get the kids to see how important estimating is....Your wife is lucky to have someone who has the materials handy for those cool projects.....

28. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:33am | #32

    *Our 4th graders go to camp at CVEC every year and do a lot of science, math and art projects....I'll look into their other programs.....ThanksThat's a good lesson - brain=money......

29. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:35am | #33

    *Thank you, all of you...When I incorporate all of your great ideas into a curriculum and become rich, I'll remember each and every one of you!!Seriously, thanks......I will keep you posted......

30. 
    Keith_C | Nov 29, 2001 02:46am | #34

    *Mr. Hazlett, My studies and BS degree(Geology for one) from the University of Akron did teach me that slate is not considered a sedimentary rock, but rather metamorphic. Just don't want some youngin' to go astray of science or possibly lose a big jackpot on Jeopardy or Weakest Link, then blame Mrs. Hazlett. You could have them paint on shale, but I don't think you'll find it on any roofs in the rubber city.

31. 
    doug_hubbard | Nov 29, 2001 03:11am | #35

    *'nother thought Pi-how about talking to some of the high school teachers and have them challenge their students to design ways to share their positive experiences with math with your students.with the house thingyou could get a blueprint and walk thru it -calculate materials - areas - cost. framing members could be calculated from drawings and then drawn to scale on the play ground. check and see if your calcs pan out...

32. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 03:27am | #36

    *Thanks, doug......I will be meeting with some high school math teachers in about two weeks....

33. 
    Mongo_ | Nov 29, 2001 03:41am | #37

    *The bowels are a bit shabby, but the kids are bright and shiny. I was a bit apprehensive the first time I went in...needless worrying.Funny thing, in Manhattan, at least at the schools I've been to, the students call CT "the country" as in "Oh, Mr Mongo is visiting today from The Country." Pretty funny.

34. 
    Mongo_ | Nov 29, 2001 03:47am | #38

    *Is there any involvement with the Rotary Club in your area?They are usually quite generous in linking community or school groups up with local business folk for various types of presentations.I had some Skidmore College links for math problems...I recall I tossed those out to you before and you already had them...yea?...nay?

35. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 04:22am | #39

    *Yeah, flowers growing in a garbage can........

36. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 04:27am | #40

    *yea......Not sure about Rotary Club.....We have business and corporate partners.....A very prestigious law firm here in Cleveland tutors once a week.....It's really gratifying to see local attorneys huddling with these little kids......Swathmore is also a good link for math.....

37. 
    kai_ | Nov 29, 2001 05:26am | #41

    *Glad to help, Pi :-) I love brainstorming, and have so little time for it except as it applies to my own life!I'm reading all these suggestions w/great pleasure, but my toothache has overtaken my memory, so if this has been suggested, ignore me. The business that math is everywhere in the universe (I mentioned plants and music) is obvious once you start showing pictures . . . planets have orbits, plants have geometric structure, even musical notation has math elements (equal spacing of lines). Perhaps challenge your students to find a picture to share, and talk about the math in it.I had two wonderful math teachers like you--you know, the kind you cry over leaving when school is out--one in 7th and one in 10th grade. They made enough difference that I originally wanted to be a math major ('nother story).Hey, here's something corny but practical: set up a pretend fast food counter (back to the "when the power goes out" thing) where a student buys something, gives a $10 bill, and the cashier says "[whatever was ordered] that's [some dollar amt that is unintelligible]" and then hands the food over and says "[the change the register said to give]" and see if the student knows how to quickly determine if the total and change are correct.Your students are so fortunate to have you!

38. 
    Phill_Giles | Nov 29, 2001 07:47am | #42

    *I'm sure you can find canned courses on coastal and celestial navigation easily enough (both of which exercise a broad range of math skills as well as touching on astronomy, physics, map reading, etc.). There's also orienteering to make a game out of navigation. But going down a different path; as I remember it, what kiiled most people's appetite for math at an early age were fractions: adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing the little devils. If your truck has 3' 6¾" of interior clearance, how many sheets of 5/8" OSB can be stacked in there ? If the sheets are 4'x 8' and OSB weighs 27#/cu ft, what will a full load of OSB weigh ?

39. 
    Mongo_ | Nov 29, 2001 09:49am | #43

    *Arghhh...Swathmore, Skidmore...I was wrong, you are right.I read your reference about "The Flats" in a previous post regarding bridges. The reference rang a distant bell. When I was flying in the air force, Cleveland was generally recognized as being the most hospitable and most fun air show to fly in.My head aches just thinking about it..oy!

40. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:49pm | #44

    *Our air show is great.....It's held at Burke Lakefront Airport....My school is 5 minutes from the lakefront and when the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds are practicing for the show, they fly right over our school and rattle the windows! On that day(Labor Day weekend), the kids go outside and watch.....Awesome.....The Flats is a party place now, but it used to be the industrial hub of Cleveland...

41. 
    Pi | Nov 29, 2001 01:52pm | #45

    *You're right, when we do fractions, their eyes glaze over......We don't do so many word problems now until they really get the concept of fractions through manipulatives

42. 
    Stephen_Hazlett | Nov 29, 2001 04:04pm | #46

    *Hate to burst your self important bubble Kieth but the lesson wasn't that slate is a sedimentary rock.The concrete stepping stones weren't sedimentary rock either---nor were the sea shells or the plastic kitchen ware everything was formed in.Go back and re-read the post and you will see I noted it " sedimentary rock" xmas presents. See what the quotation marks were for?BTW Kieth I am sure your BS degree in geology taught you that around the world several different types of rock are used for roofing and are generically referred to as slates and that the stone we usually think of as slate and that you refer to as metamorphic was once sedimentary.

43. 
    Mike_Gabriel | Nov 29, 2001 07:57pm | #47

    *Hehehe, don't you love that deer-in-the-headlights look when you give them a 20 and a single for a $10 and change purchase??

44. 
    Keith_C | Nov 30, 2001 05:19am | #48

    *Ah, but the sedimentary had to be igneous first, right? Kinda like the circular question...egg or chicken. Sea shells, break on the beaches, become the glorious white sand (carbonate)beaches, compressed, become the limestone and dolomite(sedimentary) strata. 3 rock types....igneous, sedimentary, metamorphic. Pick a place to start....come back to the same place.

45. 
    Keith_C | Nov 30, 2001 05:36am | #49

    *Subtle humor is lost on this bunch I take it........a contractor with Geology degree.....a BS degree to boot....the only thing it is good for is Jeopardy and Weakest Link......I know this rainy weather is getting to us, but c'mon.

46. 
    kai_ | Nov 30, 2001 07:05am | #50

    *Hehehe, and they seem so surprised at the change they deliver.

47. 
    Lisa_Long | Nov 30, 2001 07:26am | #51

    *Pi - Baking is a good way to learn to manipulate fractions. Doubling or halving recipes, especially baking recipes, always involves fractions. Do you have access to ovens? They might get interested when they will be eating their mistakes. My twins' class (4th grade) baked pumpkin bread a couple of weeks ago, just for this reason. Some of it was terrible. =:-oIs there anything they could tile? Even a table top somewhere? That would be a fun way to discuss grids, area, patterns, quantities, etc.In the same vein as bikes, skateboards would be a good way to learn about physics. They could build ramps (lots of math used in the process), and then use them to do physics experiments with their own bodies. That would take some space, but maybe the school would use the ramps? I bet someplace like (gasp, choke) Home Depot would donate the lumber. Some of the high school boarders around here are great at building ramps; maybe high schoolers in your area would help out (for extra credit...).Thanks for putting so much effort into these kids' minds and lives.

48. 
    Luka_ | Nov 30, 2001 07:38am | #52

    *I can just see it now...."Timmy broke his neck trying to do his physics homework"...b : )

49. 
    Don_Reinhard | Nov 30, 2001 07:54am | #53

    *Dear 3.14159... OK, so you want to expose kids to math. How 'bout a $15,000 scholarship to go with it? How 'bout a bridge design contest w/ that as the prize - OPEN TO ALL KIDS FROM K - 12!!!!! Interested? Go to http://www.bridgecontest.usma.edu This is the 200th anniversary of the founding of the US Military Academy - the first engineering school in the US of A. To celebrate, they are sponsoring the bridge design contest, and it is open to all kids. It started on 11 Nov 2001. Go to that website to find details. This contest was supposedly advertized w/ poop sent to every school in the US - or at least every high school. Counselors/ science coordinator type folks are supposed to have rather voluminous poop on the project. It was exposed to all Boy Sacouts at the past Jamboree at Camp AP Hill in VA last summer, and from all reports, captivated the kids.Questions, just send me an e-mail; be glad to help.Don Reinhard

50. 
    Crusty_ | Nov 30, 2001 08:06am | #54

    *Pi, most folks buy land sooner or later. Once of the word problems I used with my girls was "This lot measures 300' x 300'. At $15,000 you're only paying $5000 and acre. Land around here usually sells for $7500 and acre. What a bargain!" (Or is it?)This is a really practical thing to know (i.e., a square mile is a "section" and a section is 640 acres)

51. 
    Lisa_Long | Nov 30, 2001 08:31am | #55

    *Heck yah - she said she wanted to get their attention, right? Might get one of 'em interested in a career in medicine!

52. 
    Phill_Giles | Nov 30, 2001 10:15am | #56

    *?? An acre is a chain x a furlong; by observation, you've got a little over 2 acres there: I know that, you know that, practically everyone on the forum could spot that; but, the "negative option" is supposed to be difficult for children to pick up on, particularly if it's only implied, and more particularly when they must refute a "fact" given by an authority to get there.

53. 
    David_Thomas | Nov 30, 2001 11:14am | #57

    *Pi: While at Berkeley, I went with other SWE student chapter members to talk up math and science to high school students. Keep your options open. Yes, women can be scientists and engineers.One Elementary Functions (after Geometry, before Calculus) teacher was clueless on real-world applications. A student asked why study cylinderical and spherical co-ordinates? The teacher didn't know. I agreed with the student that the retangular room we were in was most easily described in the x-y-z co-oridinates that they were already familiar with. But if you want to sail around the world (or do a rocket shot) that is far easier in spherical. And how fluid flows through pipes is an important problem - and when did you last see a rectangular pipe?Try a student and/or adult chapter of Society of Women Engineers as a source of speakers. I know they have outreach programs. -David

54. 
    Pi | Nov 30, 2001 01:57pm | #58

    *Thanks, David.....These are all good questions.....Come to think of it, I've never seen a rectangular pipe.....I've used NASA here in Cleveland as a resource.....Sally Ride has an excellent interactive website on astronauts and other space related topics.....Friends of ours were going to take a cruise from Vancouver to Alaska, but 9/11 stopped that.....I would love to visit Alaska someday.....I keep thinking of one of my favorite sitcoms - Northern Exposure - everytime you describe where you are!

55. 
    Pi | Nov 30, 2001 02:05pm | #59

    *Hi Lisa, cooking is a great way to see a connection and double and triple fractions.....I made pancakes one year...Recipe was for 10 and we made it for 50.....They weren't so good, either.........Ah, tiling.....love the idea......I'v done tesselating with pattern blocks.....But, it would be REAL hands on if they could tile a table or floor......I'm really going to think on that one.....Where could I get the tiles???Our 2nd graders do a science unit on balls and ramps.....Skateboards would be great.....We already have ramps..wouldn't have to go to HD...choke.......

56. 
    Stephen_Hazlett | Nov 30, 2001 03:40pm | #60

    *Pi, Another angle you might want to approach this from is the Machine shop trades like tool and die makers,plastic injection mold makers,machinists,benchmen etc.One problem in industry is that most schools push college prep as the perfect curriculum. Meanwhile a lot of clean,well lit,air conditioned machine shops can't fill some very high paying jobs using state of the art technology on the shop floor.A few machine shops will try to attract high school students to these opportunities through "career days" but I think by high school it is too late.Perhaps grade school or junior high would be a better introduction BEFORE kids get brainwashed by highschool guidance counselors into believing that smart kids only go to college and that machine trades are for dummies.

57. 
    Stephen_Hazlett | Nov 30, 2001 03:48pm | #61

    *Pi, I know someone already mentioned sports as a topic.Each spring the Cleveland Indians AA affiliate the Akron Aeros plays several mid week day games.The local schools bring in thousands and thousands of kids to the stadium in downtown Akron.It's a promotional thing for the Aeros and meanwhile the local shools involved do a weeklong deal where they involve baseball in science,math,history,gym etc.

58. 
    Phill_Giles | Nov 30, 2001 06:05pm | #62

    *Stephen, you've reminded me of a career fair for IT professionals I attended a few years back. Among the IBM's, ATI's, HP's, etc. were two booths from a large international car parts maker side-by-side. The sign over one booth said something like: "Tired of the bullshit, politics, and wearing a tie ? Become a NIC wizard and have a real job.". Over the other booth there was a smaller sign that read: "Bullshit, politics, and tie-wearing jobs.".

59. 
    Mongo_ | Nov 30, 2001 07:07pm | #63

    *Another possible lead...The National Association of Women in Construction (NAWIC).I've hitched my girl scout troop up with them in the past, we're doing it again in the spring. They have formal and impromptu programs and do a good job of getting the young mind into gear.They also put on large programs, the most recent being a "Block Kids Contest" which was a nationwide competition.They work will boys and girls.The NAWIC chapter here (actually about 20 minutes away) is pretty good, and generous with their time.

60. 
    xJohn_Sprung | Dec 01, 2001 12:09am | #64

    *Pi --OK, here's some real life simple arithmetic: NBC gives Mary 30 seconds for the end credits on her sitcom. The studio and production company logos take 6 seconds. The SAG contract requires a minimum of 1 second for a card with one name on it, 1.5 seconds for 2 names, 2 seconds for 3 names, 2.5 seconds for 4 or 5 names, 3 seconds for 6 names, and and additional half second for each name over 6. There are 22 cards in the end credits approved by legal, 4 of which are actors' credits, two with three names, two with four. There are 30 frames in one second of video. How many frames do the other cards get? (25 each)Video editing is done using time code, which identifies every frame in terms of hours, minutes, seconds, and frames. Traditionally, show masters start with hour one straight up as the first frame that goes on the air (test patterns and a slate go just before that on the tape). Suppose the end credits start at 01:22:49:10, what are the time codes for each of the cards? (The length of the show as delivered is well under half an hour because NBC wants blacks two seconds long where the commercials will be integrated.)Here's another one: Color TV isn't really 30 frames per second, it's actually 29.97 frames per second. If you count time code as if it were 30 (which is actually done sometimes, and called Non-Drop code), how far over a true hour are you at the end of an hour of time code? (3 seconds 18 frames). Because of this, we have Drop Frame time code. It skips the frame numbers 00 and 01 on every even minute except the tens of minutes. Show how this makes an hour of time code equal an hour of real clock time. For some real fun, convert some durations between Drop and Non-Drop. You can buy special pocket calculators that do this.-- J.S.

61. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 12:19am | #65

    *wow,I am really grateful for all of these ideas....Stephen, your wife must really love having you as a resource!Mongo, believe it or not, one of my fellow teachers uses NAWIC and has even had women construction workers come into the classroom....They did a whole project(4th graders) building different things.....I had forgotten about this....This was a series of lessons spread over about 4 months.....ThanksJohn, I have to really think about your "real simple problems".........I have saved this thread.....

62. 
    jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Dec 01, 2001 01:01am | #66

    *Hey! When do you suppose they'l stop having "Girl Scouts" and "Boy Scouts", and just have "Scouts"? Talk about reinforcing stereotyping.

63. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 01:26am | #67

    *a renaissance man after my own heart.......

64. 
    Astrid_Churchill | Dec 01, 2001 02:18am | #68

    *For a feminine touch you might try making quilting patterns with colored paper, or even for real make a quilt, lots of work making squares into triangles and so on. And let them design their own patterns and discover how many different patterns can be made using the same basic shape. The whole is equal to the sum of the parts and all that. Lots of books on the subject.

65. 
    Daryl(Newf)_Ferguson | Dec 01, 2001 02:19am | #69

    *...E=MC (with the"C" to some power)......Solve......E...

66. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 02:33am | #70

    *Hi Astrid.....quilting patterns are an innovative way to get kids to see how patterns are incorporated into everyday items....Our media specialist(librarian) is a quilting specialist and often helps me with my patterns......Children's books are a good resource for quilting patterns....Eight Hand Round, Sweet Clara and the Freedom Quilt......

67. 
    Daryl(Newf)_Ferguson | Dec 01, 2001 02:54am | #71

    *Pi:...Did you ever read the book by John Allen Paulos:Beyond Numeracy; Ruminations of a Numbers Man ???......Famous for :"Inunnmeracy"?..read?... (Of course you have...)......2 page chapters on really neat things about math and the "real" world......Such as "Music, Art, and Digitalization", " Mobus Strips and Orientability", And the not soon forgotten "E "... ...good book.....not THE Good Book......Newf...

68. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 03:31am | #72

    *Inunnmeracy....Yes...Mobius strips, sort of has one going around in circles......Infinity.......I'll have to revisit him.....

69. 
    Daryl(Newf)_Ferguson | Dec 01, 2001 03:49am | #73

    *...And then show them some prints of M.C.Escher......" I Know a Lot About Art, But I Don't Know What I Like?"......Could be a t-shirt......n...

70. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 03:59am | #74

    *Escher...patterns, patterns, patterns......tesselate, tesselate, tesselate......

71. 
    Daryl(Newf)_Ferguson | Dec 01, 2001 04:20am | #75

    *Tesselate: "adj" tessellate......tessellate: to form of small squares, or blocks....,...mosaic...Thanks, a new word......no, I think it is Perspective......All My Life's A Circle......n...

72. 
    Phill_Giles | Dec 01, 2001 07:23am | #76

    *You mean you don't already ? My son's troup is cubs through rovers, co-ed from top to bottom.

73. 
    Phill_Giles | Dec 01, 2001 07:55am | #77

    *Focusing on publications, we used to be given "The Mathematics Engagement Calendar" by Theoni Pappas and published by MathAids/Math Products Plus, PO Box 64 San Carlos, CA 94070. They also made calendars and childrens' calendars and agendas. As an engagement calendar it was the pits; but, it has great amusement value: each month is done in a different numbering system (like Chinese rod numerals and the Egyptian hieratic number system); in a 'page per week' format, on the opposing leaf each week they had an interesting math item (like hexatetraflexagons, focusing headlights, Mobius strips, Schlegel diagrams; why, in the copy I found on my memories shelf, the second week in December features "Tessellations of Old" just for Pi.). Pappas also wrote: The Joy of Mathematics, More Joy of Mathematics, Mathematics Appreciation, and, even a book on optical illusions called What do you See ? I think they're distributed by Wide World Publishing (I have an old number for them - 415-593-2839) - Amazon ??

74. 
    Mongo_ | Dec 01, 2001 08:53am | #78

    *A somewhat memorable quote from one of my girl scouts a few years back when we did mobius strips. Did the one where you cut it along it's length, but instead of becoming two pieces, it flips into one big loop twice the size of the original:"I cut mine wrong...instead of cutting it in half, I cut it in twice."You had to be there to hear the plaintive voice and see the bewildered facial expression to truly appreciate it.

75. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Dec 01, 2001 02:26pm | #79

    *Pi, you've already got a lot of great ideas. I'll add my two cents.I really don't know much about teaching. I'm a lot better at criticizing administrations.... but anyways...I used to enthrall my kids with the obvious things that we live with daily. If my tape measure was handy, we'd start measuring everything. This leads to problems that need to be explained...the light bulb thing.If I was teaching a math class of your age group, I might start by measuring the classroom perimeter with a tape. Then a wheel. Then a yardstick. Then a newspaper. Then a person. By starting with the know number (the tape measure), we'd be forced to understand the ratios involved in all the other methods. I'd then progress with further measurements of the room. Height, cubic volume. Number of tiles. Lights. Kilowatts that the lights use. Weight. I'd have a competion. One team would measure one floor tile and use math to calculate the sf area of the room. The other team could use a different technique...I'd calculate the cost of the tables, chairs, pencils. I'd consider measuring the perimeter of the school building. Estimating the number of brick, etc.I might set up a builder transit....kids love looking through the eyepiece. I'd set up teams of students to take elevation shots. I'd give them one of the two sided tapes that have the feet broke into tenths on one side and twelfths on the other. Let the kids fight it out why they are both right with different answers....As you can see, I'm full of construction ideas. That's what I know. Pose this same question in an accountant's forum and you'll get a different perspective. Pose this question in thirty different profession's forum and you'll have your entire curriculum!blue

76. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 03:38pm | #80

    *Thanks, Phill, I'll look that up......I work in a multicultural school and use a multicultural math series......

77. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 03:46pm | #81

    *Hey, I said the same thing!

78. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 03:53pm | #82

    *Ok, Blue, you've been hiding your talents.....Those ideas are just the construction ideas kids would appreciate......My school is brick and is 20,000 square feet or so.....That would be a hoot trying to figure out how many bricks.......The custodian has the blueprints, I'll ask him......The building was finished in '78......I use a two sided tape with inches and centimeters......Is that the same or is it a construction tape?You wanna come in and do a lesson? I brainstorm with my colleagues and get very different ideas, you're right, everyone's perspective is different.....Thanks

79. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 03:59pm | #83

    *Morning, Newf......Here's one for you......

80. 
    Stephen_Hazlett | Dec 01, 2001 04:39pm | #84

    *Pi, If I keep adding in my 2 cents worth here you are gonna owe me about $5.The quilt pattern suggestion is a really good one in that it can take you in areas you would never have dreamed of----- true story follows. My sister -in law is a Ph.d professor of geography at a university in PA.Her interest in quilting pre-dates her grad school work.She applied her interest in quilting in her grad school studies ( theses work etc.) looking at geographic distributions of various quilt patterns across the nation,economic levels,etc.,etc.,etc.She turned her interst in quilts into a career as a tenured professor at a state university. She has been published several times and frequently travels across the country to lecture to various groups on her specialty.I will fess up here. I kind of used to laugh at her "specialty". she has forced me to respect it because she has actually created a career that didn't really exist before.She is a good lesson in how your personal interest can take you places you never would have imagined and down career paths that you never even new were possible.

81. 
    Pi | Dec 01, 2001 07:32pm | #85

    *I figure I owe everyone!!Stephen, does your SIL have a site? One summer at John Carroll we studied mathematics involved in maps.....It was fascinating...

82. 
    Lisa_Long | Dec 02, 2001 12:21am | #86

    *As I was doing payroll last night I thought of your kids - and that I imagine money is something that interests them. How will they know if their employer is paying them correctly? Are the hours figured right (60 minute clock vs. decimals, rounding up or down to 5 minute increments, etc.), are the witholdings correct (looking up numbers in tables, seeing how different witholdings affect the paycheck), are the deductions applied correctly (multiplying percentages), etc. All of which affects how much money they will have in their pocket. In 14 years employees have discovered errors of mine twice. I wonder how many went undetected?Maybe the kids could fill out pretend time cards and figure out how much they should get paid, and then you could figure out if they were right? And the ones who get it right get....chocolate money, of course. :-)

83. 
    Pi | Dec 02, 2001 02:16am | #87

    *Lisa, you're right, kids can relate to money.....I always steer their thinking towards money when we're discussing fractions, decimals, etc......Great idea.....

84. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Dec 02, 2001 03:45am | #88

    *Thanks for the nice encouragement Pi. Yes, I'll come in and do a lesson. I was offered to do one way back in my younger years on Solar energy saving in houses, but declined. I'm a little more sure of myself these days...Most of the cheaper 100' tapes (the vinyl ones) that are sold at Home Depot have the engineers scale (feet and decimals of a foot) on one side and the other side is the kings foot or whatever we use here in the states. 10.5' (engineer's scale) = 10' 6". The engineers foot is divided into tenths of a foot and hundreths. I'll figure out when I'll travel over with my cheapie Home Depot tape to help you measure things up...By the way, where am I going? Was that Cleveland?blue

85. 
    Daryl(Newf)_Ferguson | Dec 02, 2001 04:01am | #89

    *...Oh thanks, now I'll have no free time!!!......Nice site......It's like what R. Buckminster Fuller wanted the world to see......squared by a pi......n...

86. 
    Pi | Dec 02, 2001 04:43am | #90

    *I use it all the time......Our future generation of kids are learning in a short time what it took you and I a lifetime to learn.....Bucky, he knew what he speaketh......

87. 
    Pi | Dec 02, 2001 04:47am | #91

    *Yeah, Cleveland.....You know, the mistake on the lake...I'll make a trip to my local HD......I never thought I would be taking a trip to HD for some manipulatives!!You guys are the very thing that we need......Most of my kids will never make it to college, but sure do have a chance to make it in the trades......As I said, I'm working on a project to teach "unreachable" kids.....If I can reach one or two, I'll consider myself successful.....

88. 
    Theodora_D. | Dec 02, 2001 04:51am | #92

    *Thanks, Astrid for mentioning quilts. I was thinking about that, too. You learn fractions putting them together, too.

89. 
    Keith_C | Dec 02, 2001 05:09am | #93

    *"Not make it to college, but make into the trades" What in the freak was that about? Hey all you sub-intelligents...I think she means our kin-folk, we's heppin' edumicate so's we can gets some hep som day.

90. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Dec 02, 2001 07:18am | #94

    *Pi, we're only pawns. Those kids don't need us, they need you. Those kids also need to understand that they're important. They need to accomplish something that they never thought they could achieve.I know you have the answers...blue

91. 
    Lisa_Long | Dec 02, 2001 10:09am | #95

    *Lil' testy there, Keith.Intelligent people with a good academic record and trades abilities may make it to college or make it into the trades, or both.Intelligent people with good academic records and no trades abilities may make it to college but not into the trades. (People like my brother-in-law should never have access to a power tool.)Intelligent people with poor academic records and/or who must earn their own living out of high school (these are like Pi's kids), and with trades abilities may make it into the trades but not into college. (At least not right away - but they could pursue it later if they desired.)Unintelligent people are going to have a hard time making it into either college or the trades, and certainly won't last long in either one.I think I covered the relevant combinations and permutations.

92. 
    Pi | Dec 02, 2001 03:27pm | #96

    *Yep, you sure did.....Keith, if we can keep these kids in school, off the streets and out of jail, we benefit.....I work with some very intelligent kids who will have to beg, borrow or steal to go to college......Maybe by working a few years at something else beside MickeyD's, they can learn and save enough to attend school....The hard part is convincing them of this......You know the old adage, "flowers growing in a garbage can"........Call me stupid, call me naive, call me an eternal optimist, but I will continue to think this way forever......

93. 
    Stephen_Hazlett | Dec 02, 2001 04:36pm | #97

    *Pi, My sister in law is at Bloomsberg University in PA. I don't think she has a web site.Here is more food for thought. The Cleveland Art Museum. Earlier this fall I was their taking a tour( I do that 1-2 times a month----it's always great,always different,and I always learn something new).-------Anyhow I am taking the tour and we are standing in one of the oldest parts of the museum---the lobby that stands between the armour court and the brick walled garden atrium.The tour guide pointed out that each corner of the lobby was dedicated to one of 4 men who were instrumental in founding the museum and told a little about each one.The tour guide then talked about the armour court and WHY it was the first gallery opened when the museum was founded.The thinking was that at that time Cleveland was a steel town and these 4 guys wanted to have a display of some of the most beautifull objects ever created from steel to inspire the common men who worked in their steel mills.( Of course the guide glossed over some of the nastier attributes of those 4 men----but wouldn't THAT make another fun tour?Local industrialists and all their dirty little secrets.Point is you never really know what will spark an interest in even the most unlikely person OR where it will lead.Now Pi,if only I could find 1 or 2 kids who wanted to learn the filthy, initially backbreaking,but potentially quite lucrative roofing trade----and who would show up for work prepared to actually WORK----then we will have accomplished something.Plenty of oportunities for the disadvantaged in this business.

94. 
    Pi | Dec 02, 2001 06:06pm | #98

    *Thanks, Stephen.......I love the Armour Court especially since they redid it......We live about 10 minutes away from the Museum in Cleveland Heights......Don't you love their new audio setup where you can walk through a special show and use the audio whenever you want?If you see two people(husband has salt and pepper hair and a mustache) and a gorgeous woman with salt and pepper hair, come up and say hello.....You are right, you never know what will make someone interested in something......I admire roofers, as I wouldn't get up on a roof for anything!......There are a lot of older homes here in my area with slate roofs......We had a slate roof(75 years old)and, when we replaced it, were astounded at the cost of replacing slate......Needles to say, we went with something else!!!

95. 
    mulch52_ | Dec 02, 2001 06:29pm | #99

    *Pi, this is exciting! Look at all the links to other disciplines and interests (let's see, construction, quilting, navigation, aviation, sports, cooking, botany, music to name a few) this discussion has turned up. Speaking as a math atheist, I always had trouble with percentages, particularly with interest rates...which led to some expensive lessons learned. Perhaps a little consumer math might give the kids a healthy skepticism about the stuff (like polls & ads) they see on TV...

96. 
    Theodora_D. | Dec 02, 2001 07:47pm | #100

    *I have loved listening to this discussion! Thank you Pi, and all the others of you out there who tackle the hard work of teaching. It makes my world a better place, even if I don't have kids.Stephen raised the point about back-breaking work. I have a question. Our culture talks a lot about the importance of making learning fun, which I do believe in. Sometimes though, learning is just hard work and not fun? How do we help kids realize that? And how do we inculcate in them that very hard work is necessary in life, and that if you do it, sometimes the rewards are great? Unfortunately, for a lot of us, sometimes life is back-breaking hard work with no reward. I don't know if I would want a child to learn that...And here I am two hours away from the museum in Cleveland, and I haven't visited yet! Now I definitely want to go.

97. 
    jcallahan | Dec 02, 2001 09:54pm | #101

    *Pi, Have you ever used "Math to Build On" ? http://www.constructpress.com/ I find it pretty useful time to time. I think it would be great to show kids real world applications of math.

98. 
    Pi | Dec 03, 2001 12:53am | #102

    *mulch, you are so right......I have saved this whole thread and intend to cut and paste when I have time......ah, percentages, that's why I carry a calculator..........That's a whole other math topic, to use or not to use!!! Our kids are inundated with crap and fall for just about anything that comes down the pike.....We do use prices and problem solving about what is the unit price, which is the best bargain, etc......Good to see you over here......

99. 
    Pi | Dec 03, 2001 01:01am | #103

    *You have just touched on a teaching topic that will bring out a lot of responses.....Should learning always be fun? Kids today don't like to memorize anything, math facts being the thorn in every math teacher's side......"But, it's not fun".......I feel there are some basics we must all learn before we can go on to the more abstract topics.....Now, if I could only figure out how to make students realize this! I sometimes feel like I am standing on my head and spinning with some classes....You should have seen me demonstrating swimming a lap and how to get them to compute how many laps it would take to swim a hundred or 200 meter race! They liked it, but was I tired after doing it with four classes.....Theodora, you have got to come and see our Museum.....They are just finishing up a Picasso show and our Armour Court is awesome....Like Stephen, I can get lost in the caverns....If you ever come to Cleveland, please e-mail me and I'll be glad to join you.....We are only about 10 minutes away from University Circle.......

100. 
     Pi | Dec 03, 2001 01:10am | #104

     *Thank You! I've never used it but I looked at the site and it sounds perfect for what I have in mind......The Math Forum is one of my favorite sites and I love Ask Dr. Math......I have monies I can spend through Title I and I save it for special math programs I think are worthwhile....

101. 
     Theodora_D. | Dec 03, 2001 01:13am | #105

     *It's a date.I remember memorizing the times tables. It's just plain work but you have to do it. My third grade teacher was my next door neighbor, so the pressure was really on. I remember her asking me what 7x6 is. To this day, every single time I have to multiply that, I think of how I felt that very minute, knowing I better get the answer right. I kind of enjoy remembering that now. 7x6 is my favorite product.I think that's one of the ways we learned those basics that weren't fun. They were presented in such a way that we never felt we had a choice but to learn them. Where did that world go? I'm all for creative and independent children, but sometimes we all just have to do what we are told! (Not all the time....)I have awful memories of learning "new math" and I'm still not sure what it was. I do remember weeks and weeks of little stick figures holding up fingers to represent tens and ones, and thinking, OK now, doesn't the teacher know this stuff, that "that" is how she has to figure it out?

102. 
     Phill_Giles | Dec 03, 2001 01:23am | #106

     *Ah, the "new math"; I was in an experimental new math program in high school, the powers at be wanted to see how it would go before they inflicted it on everyone; what a disaster, the teacher was learning at the same time he was teaching

103. 
     Phill_Giles | Dec 03, 2001 01:25am | #107

     *I think you've made an astute cultural observation. When did it become necessary for everything to be "fun" ? Not so long ago we were all thrilled with "interesting" or "rewarding".

104. 
     Theodora_D. | Dec 03, 2001 03:22am | #108

     *We definitely need both. We can't grow up afraid of or bored with hard work, but we also need to see that learning is satisfying, and one of the keys to the satisfying part is to start with fun, and then get hooked on the sense of accomplishment.I guess that's why little humans and other little critters play. To get the skills for later when it's not all play. It just can't always stay play, and you have to keep the kids hooked when it isn't all novelty. That's the hard work for the teachers and parents to do.

105. 
     Rich_ | Dec 03, 2001 03:34am | #109

     *Oh great. While Blue's getting the kids to provide evidence of blatant overages in material billings, Lisa will be teaching how to conduct a payroll audit. The town will be split on what course of action to take against the contractor and the unions...Next lesson...local politics.But it's for the children...

106. 
     Pi | Dec 03, 2001 03:39am | #110

     *Chill.......

107. 
     Lisa_Long | Dec 03, 2001 04:13am | #111

     *Ah yes, politics. Home of people who couldn't make it into the trades. :-p

108. 
     Crusty_ | Dec 03, 2001 10:02am | #112

     *I've always liked math. But I made a "connection" a couple of years ago that I think is neat. (Stop reading now, if you're an atheist.) Math is simply a language that we use to describe all the physical relationships that exist here on earth (and elsewhere). These relationships have existed from the beginning of time. They've always existed, exactly as they are, and will never change. Math is the original language of God, because before there was man, before there was the spoken word, there was math.

109. 
     jcallahan | Dec 03, 2001 01:22pm | #113

     *Guess the math was there so our ancestors could figure out their taxes. ;o)

110. 
     Stephen_Hazlett | Dec 03, 2001 04:49pm | #114

     *Pi, when I go to Cleveland to buy slate I travel in a neighborhood I think is called "Slovak Village" I always stop for lunch at a place called " Ewa's". I think it is around Grant and E.85(around the corner on 85th). now your Fine Cooking friends would be horrified---but I always get a kick out of this place.Polish beer,duck blood soup(czercini?)pierogis,pickled cabbage,breaded and fried pork or veal,cabbage roll setc.It's a heart attack on a plate,but at the same time it's like eating at somebody's ethnic grandmothers house.I know it's wrong to say,but there is something so wonderfull about having this nutritional nightmare brought piping hot to your table by a pretty girl with a polish accent.when I go to the art museum I go early so I can stop on the way at the west side market and nosh my way from stall to stall. Sausage sandwiches,pecan pies,chow chow,giant pickles,cheeses etc.

111. 
     Pi | Dec 04, 2001 01:53am | #115

     *Stephen, if you like Hungarian food, try Balaton's on Shaker Square.....Slovak Village is a great place....My friends at Fine Cooking are all closet fast food addicts, even though they won't admit it!!!The WSM.....Do you go to Frank's with the great slovenian sausage sandwiches or the Italian sausage sandwiches with onions a peppers or the bratwurst? There is a stand at the WSM that sells some of the best pierogis in the world......Try Vera's, some of the best pastries......

112. 
     Stephen_Hazlett | Dec 04, 2001 04:45pm | #116

     *Pi, I go to Franks and get the slovenian sausage on a hard roll plus an orange soda( gotta get the orange soda) then I walk about 2 steps away and join the ever present crowd using the conveniently located trash can as a picnic table.the best sandwhiches in the world are eaten standing up over a trash can or the kitchen sink.Next stop is the far side of Veras stall to get the little pecan pie. Once I gobble that down I have taken the edge off to where I can do some serious shopping and eating,but I gotta make those 2 first stops QUICK.I know the pierogi place---I buy those alot at Lent.They are better than the ones my wife makes( Her maiden name was Trifonoff,how come she can't make a really good pierogi?)I alwys like to see the chicken feet,the pigs heads,the entire goats and lambs----although I never have the nerve to buy that stuff.All commerce should be like the WSM,cash---no sales slips. Plus I love the variety of accents you hear.

113. 
     Theodora_D. | Dec 04, 2001 06:16pm | #117

     *Stephen,I have a Polish/Ukranian dad and an Irish/Engliah mother and he always complained that she couldn't make matzoh ball soup where the matzoh balls were light enough. She never even tried peirogi, he still sighs about them, as he lives in the south and misses them. One day I will try to make them.Meanwhile, do you guys know if the pierogi place ships them? hahahah

114. 
     Phill_Giles | Dec 04, 2001 08:26pm | #118

     *Only a short segue from this talk of math and schools: I see that the OECD released their educational achievement standards survey of 32 top industrialized countries. Canada placed second in language comprehension (behind Finland, but in what could have been called a tie for second among New Zealand, Ireland, Australia, Korea, and the UK).Japan and Korea were tops in Math and Science with the same little group of countries (Finland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the UK)just behind and only separated from one other by decimals of a percentage point. This is an improvement for Canada over previous international performance and is seen as a huge victory for provinces that have been working so hard on educational reform programs.

115. 
     Lisa_Long | Dec 04, 2001 09:37pm | #119

     *Pi - Thought this might interest you:http://www.losaltosonline.com/latc/arch/2001/23/Schools/1mosaic/1mosaic.html

116. 
     Stephen_Hazlett | Dec 04, 2001 10:50pm | #120

     *Theodora,It would not suprize me if you could get pierogis shipped. ( I read in the paper over thanksgiving that you can get NYC bagels shipped just about anywhere overnight) I am gonna be at that pierogi place about 12-19-01 and if I remember I will ask them.( christmas Pierogis! LOL)I have had decent luck finding pierogis in a lot of places large enough to have a substantial eastern european population.A REAL deli usually has 'em.BTW, at least your dad can get plenty of those mediocre Krispy Kreme donuts in the south!

117. 
     Phill_Giles | Dec 05, 2001 12:11am | #121

     *We get really decent frozen ones around here - are they not available down there ?

118. 
     Pi | Dec 05, 2001 01:18am | #122

     *Yeah, I love walking the aisles in the produce sections, especially on a Saturday and listening to all the bargaining going on......My husband can't walk by Frank's without stopping....I, personally, like the Italian sausages and there's a guy who sell gyros, too.....The City Roast Coffee stand is great and the owner owns a coffee house in the Tremont area......Now, pierogis, there is a church in Parma that sells the best pierogis in the world.....The elderly ladies make these little sinkers every Friday and there is a line waiting to buy them....Husband's grandmother was Polish and made them.....My kids grew up on them.....You don't like pig's feet? I work close to the Asia Place on Payne(Chinatown) and have eaten their dim sum, pig's feet and all....If you ever want to visit an authentic Oriental Market, let me know....

119. 
     Pi | Dec 05, 2001 01:20am | #123

     *No, I don't, but, if you ever make it to Cleveland to visit the Museum, we can make a sidetrip to the WSM.....

120. 
     Pi | Dec 05, 2001 01:24am | #124

     *Phill, try this site for mathematics.....

121. 
     Stephen_Hazlett | Dec 05, 2001 05:13pm | #125

     *Phil,Phil,Phil----I feel for you. Reduced to eating Mrs.T's Pierogis from the frozen foods section of the grocery store.those aren't pierogi's----they are freezer burned lumps of turd unfit for human consumption.Real pierogis are prepared by old slavic women wearing babushkas.

122. 
     Stephen_Hazlett | Dec 05, 2001 05:22pm | #126

     *Pi, About 14 years ago my wife and I stumbled onto the dim sum thing in San Francisco.We wandered in off the street in chinatown,sat down and made absolute pigs of our selves from cart after passing cart of stuff we had never laid eyes on before(or since). We were the only caucasions in the place,we must have been there well over an hour,and I am sure( 20-20 hindsight) our ignorance must have offended the regulars but we were too dumb to know.When we got ready to leave I thought their must be some mistake cause the tab was only $5-6 a person.I am sure we must have done somthing wrong,---it was so cheap and we were so dumb,but man it was really good.found another place selling pornographic fortune cookies---wish we had bought more----that was one fun day.

123. 
     Phill_Giles | Dec 05, 2001 07:14pm | #127

     *Around here those same women flash freeze their pierogi's and you take them home to cook later - can't tell them from fresh.

124. 
     Phill_Giles | Dec 05, 2001 08:07pm | #128

     *Yes, thanks - doesn't seem to cover the international results, but interesting none the less. I would love to get hold of the first cut data from the OECD study; unfortunately, it's quite expensive. But it's interesting to go through the op-ed pieces and some of the TV/radio coverage as various "experts" try to explain the results. Here's one you'll like: Scott Murray, director-general of social sciences and institutions at Statistics Canada claims that the disparities between public and private schools in all 32 countries surveyed is entirely due to the fact that wealthy children just do better.

125. 
     Mongo_ | Dec 05, 2001 11:22pm | #129

     *Ditto on that, Stephen...My wife and I went to Hong Kong back in '88, and we did pretty much the same thing at a small, out of the way, local joint...the waitress spoke no English, we spoke no Chinese. Lots of pointing, shrugging, and smiling as the dim sum carts went by.We were confused by the looks from some of the locals...were we invading their turf? Were we eating too much? Too little? Taking too long at the table?Fully gorged, I asked for the check, worried that we might have just blown our lunch and dinner budget for the day on lunch. Even with several beverages, for the two of us the tab came to about $14USD. As we left the restaurant, the chef came running out from the kitchen with a bag of goodies for us to take with us.

126. 
     Pi | Dec 06, 2001 01:02am | #130

     *LMAO!!!

127. 
     Pi | Dec 06, 2001 01:04am | #131

     *Oh, I would love to visit Hong Kong.....Our local Chinese restaurants in Chinatown do a pretty fair dim sum......You're right, you just gorge and point!!

128. 
     Astrid_Churchill | Dec 06, 2001 01:58am | #132

     *Hey, Pi, popped into my head yesterday as I was rotating my compost drum, the fun of gear ratios. I don't think I really learned alot about it, but the little gear working on the big gear turns the whole drum with how many turns? and efficiency and all that. I thought it was interesting, and could be practical too, for mechanics and engineers and so on. Also should mention my husband taught math for a while and loved Saxon's program and books. Thought it was the best, although some of it really made him sweat, which of course he passed on to the students, and made them sweat it too.

129. 
     Pi | Dec 06, 2001 02:25am | #133

     *Hey, Astrid......gears, ratios.....These are all concepts our kids have to know.....Saxon.....Good drill and kill(my opinion).....Several of our schools here in Cleveland are using Saxon Math.....Swear by it.....I've never used it...........

130. 
     Phill_Giles | Dec 06, 2001 11:06pm | #134

     *More on the OECD teating results. In virtually every country tested there were still gender gaps in results. Because of the attention paid to girls falling behind boys in math and science in the past, that gap has now been narrowed significantly, in some places to nearly zero; however, the reverse gap between boys and girls in reading is on the rise and has alarmed educators. As the literacy requirements for all jobs continually rises, the overall literacy rate has slipped over the last 20 years and, among boys, the average is close to the low threshold in many areas (note: in large countries like the US and Canada there are large regional/provincial/state/urban vs rural differences too). Here's where it becomes delicate: it is projected (pick your own timing, opinions vary from practically now to in the next ten years) that once the "higher education" opportunities are exhausted, the majority of the remaining high-school graduates and non-graduates (why can't they ever say "drop-outs" ?) will not have literacy skills sufficient for skilled trades, commercial clerical, health-care, or high-value manufacturing positions. There are other indicators to this trend: in NA over the last 10 years, the number of women graduating from university has risen from 53% of all graduates to 58%. The girls aren't doing better, the guys just can't cut it. And this in from Mikey D's (I'm told they are now trying to distance themselves from this remark): apparently 9 out of 10 applicants, both regular and temporary, have insufficient basic skills to work at the cash or the kitchen.

2. 
   Pi | Dec 06, 2001 11:06pm | #135

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