Let me preface this by saying that I know it’s near impossible to quote a price sight unseen, especially based on a part of the country where you have no idea what going prices are…
That said, I got a quote from an electrician for rough wiring in an 800 sq. ft. basement remodel. Nothing too fancy, just basic receptacles, switches, can lights, and a couple of electric baseboard heaters that would likely require their own circuits.
$3,800 to $4,200 seemed a bit steep to me. I’ve had smaller jobs roughed in for like $600…am I just in need of a good reality check here, or does this quote seem on the high side?
If I’m out of line, feel free to slap me silly folks. I have no pride when it comes to guesstimating for subs…
Justin Fink – FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Replies
How many lights on how many switches, etc; Justin? That includes material and fixtures? You're in Ffld county right? Doesn't strike me as outrageous (maybe a bit high) depending on the details...
PaulB
I'm in Farmington Valley (so Hartford county)
probably 12 cans, 15 receptacles, and a half dozen switches. This will include materials, yes.
Just seems high to me for some reason...what have you found?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Well, maybe I've been overpaying but I'd guesstimate labor at:
(6) light circuits @ $100.00 $600.00
(12) cans @ $75.00 $900.00
(15) recept @ $75.00 $1125.00
(2?) baseboards @ $150.00 $300.00
Misc farting around: $200.00
Labor: $3125.00
Materials:
(12) HALO cans avg: @12.00 $144.00
Recepts, baseboards, boxes
etc etc etc $350.00
=======
$3600ish...
$75 to hook up a receptacle? I should get electrician's license!
by the way, what hourly rate are you assuming for labor? just curious...Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I'm not really Justin. Most of my work involves small electrical such as adding a couple circuits, installing a few fixtures and my experience is the two guys I use just give me an essentially flat rate per unit...
PaulB
You can do it all yourself. It ain't rocket science.
Get this, it is all you need. Probably available free from your library.
View Image
6) light circuits @ $100.00 $600.00
Wouldnt the lights be on 1 circuit?
(12) cans @ $75.00 $900.00
How can it possibly take an hour to nail up a recessed light housing and make 3 maretted connections?
(15) recept @ $75.00 $1125.00
Am I also missing something?
I'm extrapolating rav...
If I call up my guy and ask him to install a few added recepts in a kitchen remodel, I expect to pay him about $75 per. I got the 6 circuits from Justin's description, unless I misunderstood him. That's what I'm used to paying to have either of the two guys I use to hookup and install a new switch leg (not a new home run for each).
As I said, I may be overpaying some but since my projects are mostly small stuff I like that I can call these guys and they show up on time, do the work promptly and don't give me attitude to do small jobs...
PaulB
Holy Crapppp! Just for starters - $100 for a can? Good for you - - I guess!
In NYC a can will go for $150-200 ,The good news is that includes the can.
If you don't like the price, find someone else. I'm sure if you shop long and hard enough you can find someone to misquote the job and threaten lawsuit if he doesn't do it at a loss.
Does your electrician do brain surgury? I have a price that seems really expensive and looking to save some cash.
sledge, your post is the bottomline and wimilar to my first. No one here can say what a job should cost given particulars and the particulars of the location. The obvious way to test the fairness and reasonableness of a bid is to get competeitve bids. We are a free market economy afterall. IF labor or contractors are scares, then they will charge you accordingly.
2 days work for 1 man plus parts.
Right - what is this guy charging per hour?? Because the materials won't be more than $500 off the shelf. Even with a 50% markup, if he's charging me $4,200 - that's like $215 per hour!
Are you saying that you think his numbers sound about right? or that it should be 2 days for one guy, plus materials?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
The fellow is ripping you off.$1600-2000 for labor is $100/hour which is a great rate.Some compensation (either a markup or time to puchase) for the cans and trim is proper. No compensation for the boxes, wire, or misc parts.
Just curious. Why do you see no need to mark up boxes, wire, or misc parts?
An interesting observation on reading through the entire thread is that the prices (as you'd expect statistically) seem to follow a "bell curve". That is to say that most of the prices actually seem to fall in around the middle with a small number of outlying data at either extreme...
I don't have any idea whether or not the price that you got is high/low/in-between but I do know that the more prices that I see the more I get a feel for what something costs.
Get a few more quotes, see what prices you get, if they all come in around the same amount theres probably a good chance that that's the going rate.
As a part timer your probably just not seeing enough of this particular situation to feel comfortable in your knowledge of the pricing. Only one thing going to cure that!
Doug
Yea I was wrong...
Go to the store price up all the material...
Then get 3 prices....
Add all your time in at your going rate... and when your done had you gone with the original estimate on paper you'd have saved enough money to buy lunch.... if you like cold beans in a can.
Go to the store price up all the material
Just to provide counterweight and humor? (yeah, I know we are NOT discussing DIY, but)....
Method here is forget the store and to go out to a shed and just pick out the materials needed that have been accumulated at garage sales/ auctions/surplus over 30 years, then just do it in about the time it would take most to just 'go to the store'...<G>
<<As a part timer your probably just not seeing enough of this particular situation to feel comfortable in your knowledge of the pricing. Only one thing going to cure that!>>
Wise words Doug, part timing isn't without it's pitfalls. Thanks for the help.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
And you thought lugging all those gift bags to the fest was a pain in the ####.
See, you get what you drag outta the closet.
Now, if you'd have let those saws boxes, drill motors and nailers fall into the bag, just think what you'd have gotten. A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
The better question is WHY DOES ANYONE THINK it makes sense to market up materials other than ,"that is the way people do it"? Sure there is an expense to source and pick up materials. Many a flat fee or an hourly rate for that service makes sense, but . . .
It is kind of like taking your car into the shop. They charge you $50 per hour. This is not all labor cost. It is overhead. DUH! Well, should "shop supplies" be included in overhead? Sure, why not. Should the cost of disposing of hazardous materials be in overhead? Sure, why not. Then why are these items itemized on your bill as separate charges?
I personally think the market up on materials is . . . no correct word comes to mind. Not an insult, not wrong, may just pointless. Materials are what they are. They charge me $50 an hour to cover the labor, your truck, your tools, your home office, your phone, etc. Going after materials which various by HUGH factors makes no sense.
If I chose $30 a square foot marble tile vs a $3 tile shoule the contractor get his fixed labor rate plus a $10 mark up on the mable vs a $1 mark up on the ceramic? Makes no sense.
I'm not trying to be insulting, just an honest question, are you a contractor or a home-owner.
Finishing a 1000 sqft basement for 7k is a joke, there's simply no way it is possible to do so by hiring someone else, I highly doubt it could be done even DIY for that much.
Finishing a 1000 sqft basement for 7k is a joke, ........, I highly doubt it could be done even DIY for that much.
No quibble with the hire by somebody else part; but, even $7K to me is very high for DIY 1000 sq ft basement (esp if 14 yards of concrete are not involved) , only OK for a lazy DIY maybe .... see post #33.
Think a guy with out a back 40 of shed's full of material ;)
If you had to go out and purchase all the studs, all the insulation, drywall, electrical, plumbing, paint, fixtures, flooring etc.
Totally agree, that was my point making a distinction between true DIY and 'lazy DIY'; ..... posted to take exception to your inference that it probably could not be done by (any) DIY for $7K. . <G>
I think I'd have heart problems if I needed to go actually buy anything at full retail (but did buy some HF sds bits a while back at 1/2 off)
Concrete? Who said anything about 14 yds of concrete?
As for the 7 Gs, it surprised me as well.
Concrete? Who said anything about 14 yds of concrete?
ref # 33, the 600 sq ft basement i did for $1200 included 14 yards of concrete, which was almost all the cost.
I know the owner and I know the house. 7 K. It is what it is.
I personnally finished a four hundred sq ft basement room including work on the stairs (required new treads, and major work on the open side and a skirt board on teh other) for less than five hundred bucks in materials, including LOWES cheap bruber carpet.
SO .....
"If I chose $30 a square foot marble tile vs a $3 tile shoule the contractor get his fixed labor rate plus a $10 mark up on the mable vs a $1 mark up on the ceramic? Makes no sense. "
One reason for markup is that more expensive materials represent a higher liability. You drop a $3 tile, nobody really cares. Drop a $30 tile and you need to stop and think a minute. The labor isn't necessarily any higher, but you know Murphy is always lurking around the corner, and markup is one way of addressing that.
izzycat, I never met anyone trying to screw me who did not have a "good" arguement as to why it was necessary. LOL!
"I never met anyone trying to screw me who did not have a "good" arguement as to why it was necessary"
Really? My experience is that many people will try to screw you for no reason other than they can. The ones you have to be really careful of are the ones who have "good" reasons, because they might actually convince you that you're not being screwed.
Do like I did once. I got the city code manual and studied it then wired my own house. When done, the city inspector spent 2 hrs going over everything and finally said "Well, I can'f find anything wrong, so I guess I have to pass it." This was in Tulsa OK back in the days when if you weren't union, nothing got passed.
Of all the inspectors that came out, only the framing inspector had a gig. I had to double up on one span of ceiling joists (2 story house).
The foundation inspector commented "You dug all those piers by hand?" He spent about 5 minutes on the site.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
That's what I'm leaning towards. By at least doing the rough-in work myself, I save the laborious part of the job for myself, I can buy all the cable/receptacles/cans to save on markup, get approved for rough-in by the inspector and then bring in the sparky to make the connections.
Anybody else doing this?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
You might have a hard time finding a legit electrician to "connect" something that someone else roughed in. Once I touch "it", I accept liability for the device,fixture, or whatever.
Better to line up your "hook up" person and have your work looked at ,by that person, before covering up the work.
Good Luck Chuck
Couldn't I set the fixtures, rough-in the romex, then call an electrician to hook it all up before the drywaller comes in? As long as it passes inspection for rough-in, why not have him connect everything before covering the walls? that way he can see what he's doing and doublecheck me.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Sounds like a workable plan. Just be sure to include the electrician in your plan. I hate the call that informs me that the inspection is scheduled for"in the morning" and can you come over TONIGHT to help me get ready for the inspector.
Here's another take on this - if you have a good relationship with an electrician.
Ask him if you can be his helper/laborer. Let him suggest what you are worth per hour. That time/$ will come of the bill before the bottom line.
You'll do the same stuff you are signing up for now, but under his/her watchful eye, not before.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Edited 9/26/2006 2:10 pm by jhausch
JFink, lights, switches, outlets? I would say monkeywork, but then someone might be offended. Get fancy with Ground Fault stuff, 220, furnances and then you need to do more homework. Otherwise, if you have a weekend . . . go for it.
I should note that this is not my own house, it's a job - otherwise I would probably do it myself. Thing is, my insurance won't likely cover me if something goes wrong with this type of thing...
Electrical work certainly ain't my specialty, and I would be slow at it. That said, I don't see a reason why I can't pull the wires and provide the materials, then call the expert to make all the connections. Like I said above, I can wait a bit longer on teh drywall, so that the electrician can doublecheck my work as he makes the connections.
Seems like it would work, and no major liability issues that I can foresee. then again, It's wishful thinking maybe.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I don't see a reason why I can't pull the wires and provide the materials, then call the expert to make all the connections.
Say that outloud 3 times and make believe you're the contractor and a homeowner is saying it to you ;)
Seriously though, if you have a good working relationship with an electrical contractor already you may be able to swing it... around here if I tried that on any of the "good" electrians they'd tell me where to stick it ;)
Why would you want to do that Justin? Just curious... after all, if it turns out that that's what it costs, why risk the aggravation and any liability that might arise?
I wouldn't, FWTW.
PaulB
Because it will be a whole hell of a lot cheaper. And customer budget is a concern on this one. We are already over budget, so I'm trying not to break her heart by telling her that the electrical will cost $4g'sJustin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I hear ya Justin... It appears we recently lost a job because I had to tell the client that her budget wasn't realistic for what she wanted to do. Good luck!
PaulB
well I can't blame her, $20,000 for an 800 sq.ft. basement does seem like a lot of money...she's probably going to cry!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
$20,000 for an 800 sq.ft. basement
Good touchstone and encouragement for us DIY to keep at it. Dug out (by hand) son's 600 sq ft. part basement 5 years ago and poured walls and installed sink and electrical, 2 new windows, french drains, etc.
Total DIY cost was about $1200, of which $1100 was concrete. All electrical, wood, carpet, cabinets, plumbing, etc. was surplus.
Also lost 15 pounds doing it - PRICELESS <G>
20 grand for 800 sqft?
so you're either working for peanuts or that is one skimpped down basement.
We work out to between 50-55 a sqft on most of basement finishes, grant it they're a tad nicer then average, but not that much. That get's you a bedroom, a family room, maybe a some simple built in, a bathroom and if needed an egress window.
We can get down to about 45 sqft for if we skimp here and there and have gone as high as 80 per sqft for an entire basement.
Carpet alone is going to work out to almost 5 sqft for anything above crap, that don't leave a whole lot of $.
This is a pretty simple basement CAG -
- Already has a slider and window, so egress isn't an issue.
- There's insulation on several of the walls, because it's a walkout.
- No bathroom, bedroom, or anything else special - just a rec room area, some storage and an office separated by french doors.
- We're going with cork flooring rather than carpet, so it's only about $3 per sq. ft. over an unfinished slab.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
That's still pretty darn cheap!
but hey, if you're making enough money at it to keep you happy, more power to you.
as an aside... if you'd have charged 500 more.... you could have had that festool saw!
Maybe our hourly rates and markups are different CAG? I'm not sure...
Then again, this ain't my full time job - that's to keep ya'll in line on the forum!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Hope you don't spend to much time on just me ;)
well I did just wander over to the French doors thread...another mess to sort through.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
hey now, leave my post alone over there... I was carefull to qualify my comments and not cross any lines...
well there was that one post I guess...
Justin, you aren't that red haired kid on TOH in your spare time, are you?
:)
Joe H
justin.... since it's a job.. and not for yourself
figure out who you want to work with then have them price it ( oh, yeah...you already did )
you're in CT... i'm in RI....licensed electricians are in demand, being in demand means the price goes up
either take the guys price or find someone else
if you take the guys price, roll it into your bid and go... stop agonizing over it
can you find someone at a lower price ? maybe... is it worth the hassle ? maybe... is it worth the liability of doing it yourself ....no
it's not for yourself... it's for a customerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
all excellent points Mike - I spoke with the customer tonight, we're all squared away.
What would I do without you veterans to keep me in line ;)
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Was going to suggest that you give the HO a try at doing some of it -- then I recalled trying to teach a 40 YO guy who had hardly ever done anything mechanical or electrical how to strip romex and the internal pvc and install an outlet. Could'nt get the guy to learn, even with aircraft type strippers, how to NOT halfway cut the wire thru while stripping.
Other possibility is to cut back the scale of the electrical work?
Only commercial work I've done is volunteer for church and school, usually could only rely one or 2 others to do any of the work to not have to redo the work myself prior to inspections.
This woman lives alone, and is not about to pull the wires on her own. I think the only options are to cut the project in other areas. The price just keeps going up - and I admit that it's partly because my original (rough) estimate was way too low to be realistic. I grossly underestimated what these tradesman are charging for jobs...
I wouldn't be surprised if she balks on the whole thing at this point - but I'll keep ya'll posted.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Around here (upstate NY) I've seen $75 - $125 per box.
Its a lot of dough. But like you mention, the liability is the kicker.
You can try to work with the sub to reduce the price. Maybe you can hang all the cans, the boxes, etc. Maybe even pull the rough. Doesnt hurt to ask.
If all else fails, do the work yourself, and have inspector go over it with fine toothed comb.
am I able to do the electrical myself? I thought you had to be licensed for reasons of liability. Am I wrong?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Where I am Justin, I couldn't even pull a permit showing elec work without a licensed electrician signed on. I suspect you'd find something similar, not to mention that yes you are (as far as I know) prohibited from doing elec work for hire in CT. Plus, my liability insurance would laugh in my face if I tried to file a claim for elec work I did.
PaulB
That's what I was figuring Paul - besides...I know I would electrocute myself. Electrical work is like voodoo magic to me...it's beyond my understanding in most cases.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Four grand? Shop around. My brother-in-law had his basement framed, concrete floor broken up for new bathroom, bathroom plumbed, drywalled, cabinets installed in bath, additional heat ducts run, three new doors, and finished trim done for 7 grand. Oh, did I mention the 7 grand included wiring? Granted, basment was about 1000 sq., but do the math.
holy cow....$7,000 for 1,000 sq. ft.??
Don't let CAG see this post, he'll really start to second guess his pricing ;)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Hey Justin,
You're electrician is not trying to rip you off, only tring to make a profit and stay in business.
If you are licensed and have insurance to cover the house burning down and killing the occupants as well as possibly killing or injuring a rescue worker than go for it!
Who created this budget anyway?? You better be careful or you will really just wish you stuck to your day job.
Sorry for the smack in the face. I can't figure how you are going to cover your azz lt alone make money on that job.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Well, it was a bit of a smack in the face, but that's ok - you're just speaking your mind.
That said, you have to start somewhere. Sure, I'm young and not as experienced as many of you. But I am licensed, qualified, and eager to go. I don't take work that I don't understand, or that is beyond my skills. Working part time means that I can make good money, and be very competitively priced doing it. I work alone, have no family to provide for, and don't have to worry about health, dental, etc. so my rates are usually lower than the full time crews. I take only as much work as I want or can handle, and I focus on keeping my clients very happy.
I understand your points about the electrical work, and I've already said that I will likely sub out the whole job.
Thanks for the post.
To others: I'm quickly reminded how great this forum is because you all gave me great feedback - over 50 posts in a half a day. Thanks a million guys/gals.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Whats a plane ticket cost from Denver to Ct. ? I could get you a guy with a license drop in & do the rough for under $800 . You supply the materials & the plane ticket. looks likea 10 hr rough.
Time to look outside the box!
haha - now we're talking! Does he mind flying in the cargo hold? :)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Eric, might all be ture, but then how can a guy get an entire basement finished for 7 grand including electrical?
I mean four grand? What does an electician get for wiring an entire 2000 sq ft house, with outdoor lighting, 220 runs, individual home runs for major appliances, etc.
If four grand is for a basement with none of the above and only a few switches and can lights, his bid for a house would be 40 grand. Does that sound right to anyone?
I gotta see what a 7 dollar a square foot bathroom looks like...
Some how I ain't buying, Sheet rock alone would be around 3k
I don't like working for peanuts.
I was also surprised at the low cost. Anymore, you can't ask anyone to think about lifting a hammer for less than $200. Ask him to swing it . . ..
so I'm trying not to break her heart by telling her that the electrical will cost $4g's
That's some tough sledding. Mind you, the change i nthe practice law in Texas two years ago doesn't let me do any "for profit" work on line voltage at all. Doesn't mean I can't "work a deal" with an electrical contractor (just that I must, by the law).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Thanks for the reminder why I DIY- that $10 copy of "Electrical Code Simplified" is really paying dividends!
What's in it for you if you do it yourself for this client? If I were hiring the work out, I'd want a licensed electrician to do the work. No offense to you- I'm sure you'd do a fine job of what sounds like relatively simple work in this case- but these guys are licensed for a reason.
"That said, I don't see a reason why I can't pull the wires and provide the materials, then call the expert to make all the connections."
I'm waiting for one of the resident electricians to suggest this may be like if they were to buy a bunch of 2x4s, cut them to size and lay them out on the ground, then call a carpenter to nail them together. :-)
Let us know if you find a sparky to bite on your plan. sounds good to me, but I would bet you would pay him a pretty penny as he sees you as between a rock and a hard place.
yeah, I'm likely going to just bite the bullet. Or rather, tell the HO to bite the bullet. She seems confident that we will work it out somehow...I'll just wait for her to figure it out and let me know...haha! (I wish)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I would ask them first though, once I roughed out a whole remodel with the agreement that they would simply check everything and tie it into the main. They came out, went to home depot and out for lunch, came back and they ripped out everything we did and charged us for all the labor and for their own wire. Before you make any agreements or prework get it on paper!
Anybody else doing this?
Yep, me. At least on my house. I feel a lot more comfortable roughing in & fishing in my 50 y/o house, than having the Helper go through the learning curve of, Oh, walls, ceilings & floors sheathed in 1x6 T&G (in 1951-spec #2 construction grade Sugar Pine) . . .
I try to have about an hour's work for the JM with the contractor I use; he gets a pretty easy job of just making up final connections & closing the covers. I get licensed work that backstops any uh-ohs I might do (none yet, knock wood).
Nothing as big as an entire basement, so, no having to go pull a permit. That will be later when the service gets changed.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
My electricians charge $3.00 a sq ft for remodel work and that includes all materials except fixtures. 2.50 sq ft new work, same deal. Goes up a little if there are a lot of can lights or fans or if they have to fish more than a few wires. I am in Alabama though so I can still turn a profit on a $100 per sq ft new home including the lot.
wild asz numbers here....
The last three basements between 600-800 SQFT ran between 3200-3800 plus the cost of final fixtures such as wall and ceiling lights, Can lighting would have been included.
FWIW when I budget a basement, if the elec. doesn't come and bid it, I estimate $65.00 per "box" be it a switch or receptacle $125 per can $150.00 per added circuit into existing panel. $65 per smoke, and $50 per each phone or cable. Then I throw a couple of hundered more on for Mr. Murphy
Phew...thanks for chiming in CAG, I was taking a beating...
PaulB
A basement? Bare studs? If bare studs, I would say you are being screwed. Just an opinion, in case cloud wishes to have a rampage. Of course the easy thing to do is get another quote or two.
I have found the following "rule of thumb" to be helpful in evaluating quotes:
Go to the store, and price all the parts. Take this figure and triple it. Add the cost of any special equipment that needs renting. This ought to be reasonably close to what you're quoted. If the figure is less than 2x, or more than 4x, the material cost, things need to be looked at more closely.