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Reality Check on Pole Barn Roof

| Posted in Construction Techniques on January 17, 2003 12:33pm
Gentlemen, Just finished a 6 stall horse barn for the wife and now she would like a roof over the arena to work her horses in.  When she flashes those pretty eyes, can’t say no.  Besides, need to buy more tools for this project.  I want to frame a 46 x 46 foot clear span roof on posts;
 
12 foot to eve
3×12 pitch
6×6 pt posts, 9.2 feet between bays (six posts per side)
2foot wide by 5 feet deep holes w/posts in concrete.
Inside and outside 2×10 girders bolted to tops of posts.
2×10 top plate on posts
2×10 rafters 16 in on center.(24 foot long)
2×12 ridge board
2×8 collar ties on every rafter.(24 foot long)
2×6 perlins 2 ft on center
Painted metal roof screwed to perlins.
 
Size of post, depth of hole, diameter of hole, number of posts from Pole framing book,
Length of rafters from western woods span chart.  2×10, grade 2 or better will span 23 feet at 16 inch on center.
 
Does this make some sense before I spend money on a structual engineer?
The goal is to keep material cost to minimum.
 
All ideas welcome.
 
 
Thanks
 
 
Reply
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Replies

  1. rez | Jan 17, 2003 12:45am | #1

    They're going to want location.

    Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.

     

     

    1. Lewandowsk1 | Jan 17, 2003 12:52am | #2

      Sacramento Valley, northern Califonia.

  2. swdd | Jan 17, 2003 12:56am | #3

    Trusses are the way to go Lou. Talk to a truss company, they'll help you out w/  all your questions.

    scott

  3. Piffin | Jan 17, 2003 01:21am | #4

    Wind loads on that sail could be scary.

    Structural ridge vs tie location vs trusses needs engineering attention.

    I've been on enough horses to question whether twelve feet is high enough clearance when one acts up. Fascia splinters in teeth won't taste as good as regular toothpicks. Twelve feet is probably minimum for my liking but higher adds to wind problem. Lower roof could make it dark near the center area of this riding paddock so use white for backside of roof or add skylights if that won't be a distraction.

    I don't like posts set in concrete in frost areas but you may be OK on that. Problem is that the concrete holds moisture to the post. Freezing will expand the water and crack the crete or soften the wood. Rot happens quickly in those conditions. Some folks solve that problem by using PT for the posts but that creates another problem for you. Horses love to nibble on the wood for mineral content and they will ingest the arsenic in the PT. You could use cedar or fir and treat just the part underground with chemical and set the posts in tamped gravel instead.

    BTW, You've got a lucky wife!

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. Lewandowsk1 | Jan 17, 2003 02:57am | #5

      Thanks for the input. 

      Trusses are $2,000 more that the rafters and collar ties. 

       The eves would be 12 feet and if I can use the rafters, there would be no lower chord from a truss to worry about in the center while riding the horses.  Although I could put hand-holds up there if a launch does occur.

      I worry about the free span rafters, would they put to much lateral pressure on the posts?

      Thanks

      1. Piffin | Jan 17, 2003 04:44am | #6

        That last Q is where you need engineering advice. Tho trusses are maybe more expensive than raw materials, the installed cost is often less or you wouldn't see so many being used, IMO. I live on an island so we don't get many here because of freighting them.

        The lower your rafter tie is, the more it combats the lateral forces individual rafters place on the beams and posts by tying it all together like the bottom chord of a truss does. It depends on the live load requirements in your area. Live load is the weight of snow or the force of wind which can include uplift or lateral forces. That's why a local engineer would be a good idea. These forces are measured in pounds per square foot ( you probably already know much of this since you have managed to put together a pretty good sounding, reasoned plan) and since you have such a large roof area, the forces playing with connections to plate should be detailed right too. The thread about why some roofs have no overhang has a lot of good info for you to read on this subject.

        I imagine that for what you are building with exposed undercarriage, the stick framed will look much better. Of course, you will be looking at your fine wife and her steeds instead of the framing but she might glance upward as she offers a prayer of thanks to the Creator for you and your loving work and then she'll happen to see the trusses if that's what you use. We wouldn't want anything ugly to interfere with her prayer time.

        ;-).

        Excellence is its own reward!

      2. User avater
        BossHog | Jan 17, 2003 04:15pm | #7

        Just fer the heck of it, I tried to estimate the horizontal force the rafters would have on a 46' clear span. I came up with well over 1,500# for each rafter. That would amount to over 10,000# of horizontal force at the posts, assuming no collar ties. There's no way you could attach collar ties to resist that kind of force anyway.

        I try to make a point of NOT telling everyone that they should use trusses, lest I sound like a broken record or salesman. But I think you'd be nuts not to in this situation.

        I also agre with Piffin - 12' doesn't seem tall enough. And wind uplift could be severe, as he also pointed out.

        Your reaction at each post will probably be about 6,000#, so you'll need substantial posts.Who were the beta testers for Preparations A through G?

        1. ANDYSZ2 | Jan 18, 2003 12:47am | #8

          I have seen one riding ring like this and it was made out of steel trusses and posts with a steel roof .I don't think wood trusses would be strong enough for the up lift.

                                                  ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.

          1. User avater
            BossHog | Jan 18, 2003 03:42am | #11

            "I don't think wood trusses would be strong enough for the up lift.

            "

            Pickin' on my trusses, huh? What a day - First I was called a communist, then my tractor was insulted, then my trusses. Rough crowd here today.

            Actually, wood trusses will probably work fine, if they're designed and installed right. The bottom chords will require purlins spaced closer than if the truss wasn't designed for wind loads. And some of the webs will probably have to be upgraded or braced.

            But there's no reason to think they wouldn't handle a wind load.Brushing a child's hair is one of life's great pleasures.

          2. Piffin | Jan 18, 2003 07:03am | #12

            Well ssomeone's sure confused!

            Communists don't own tractors..

            Excellence is its own reward!

          3. ANDYSZ2 | Jan 19, 2003 04:48pm | #13

            Boss Hog my concern would be with lift on this structure if he is planning to leave out the walls and just have a roof.One question I do have is what is the maximun span for wood trusses and how do they tie the individual pieces together to prevent deflection.We don't use trusses that often down here so I am totally un qualified to make an opionated assumption. But I still like the idea of using steel to increase the strength of the connections from the ground to the beam to the trusses, that is steel posts ,steel beams ,steel trusses and a metal roof.

                                             ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.

          4. User avater
            BossHog | Jan 19, 2003 07:46pm | #14

            Don't know exactly what the max span is for wood trusses. The longest I've personally done is 80'. I've heard of 100' trusses, but don't know any details.

            When you say: "how do they tie the individual pieces together to prevent deflection." I'm not sure what you mean.

            Designing wood trusse4s for uplift isn't any nig deal. Designing the rest of the structure for wind is the part that never seems to get done.

          5. ANDYSZ2 | Jan 19, 2003 08:02pm | #15

            Boss Hog what do you connect the trusses with , that can resist the lift from this big a surface?

             The lumber for these length trusses has to be spliced  what do they use  and does the geometry of the connections make the truss so strong that it won't sag over this long a span?

                                ANDYSZ2 

                                  I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.

          6. User avater
            BossHog | Jan 20, 2003 04:33am | #20

            Trusses are triangulated, which is what gives them their strength. By triangulated, I mean that the webs in the truss divide the perimeter into smaller triangles.

            The joints and splices have metal "nail plates" pressed into both sides. The plates have teeth punched in them which twist their way onto the wood when they are pressed in. Typical design values for the plates runs somewhere around 200 # per square inch of plate area.

            Is that what you wanted to know?Q: What's the major difference between wives and husbands who are trying to have children?

            A: Wives want to videotape the birth of their child. Husbands want to videotape the conception.

          7. FrankB89 | Jan 19, 2003 09:03pm | #16

            Here's a little trivia that won't help the original poster, but you might find mildly interesting:

            I worked in sawmills and plywood mills that had 120' free span barrel roofs, wood trusses on 12' centers, 3" X 12" purlins on 4' centers.  Sheathing was diagonal 2 X 10 cardecking.  A lot of buildings like this were built post-WWII here in the West.

            All splices and connections were done with 3/4" bolts and 4" shear rings.  Attachment to posts (doubled 12" X 14" Doug fir, 40' tall) was with heavy steel shear plates, rings and bolts.  Some of the buildings had 110' bridge cranes inside so the wall structures were also heavily X-braced with steel rods.  The posts were set on large concrete footings and bolted to steel imbedments.

            Usually where bridge cranes were installed, there were two or more of these buildings side by side with double rows of posts  with X-bracing both directions.

            When a building stood alone and carried a crane, batter braces were employed outside along the walls.

            Wind was never a problem with these buildings and many of them have survived many a heavy windstorm and an occasional Pacific typhoon.  (Most didn't survive the downturn with the timber industry in the 1980's however).

            The only problem I ever saw with one of these structures was after a heavy snow fall one winter, some pinhead had the bright idea of washing the now off with firehoses.  Of course the snow soaked up the water and the bottom cords parted on about a dozen trusses.  That required an engineered repair which consisted of tension cables and turn buckles permanently installed to pull the cords together.  Cords were spliced at breaks.  (I wasn't responsible for the damage, but my crew and I had the joy of doing the repair).

            In Cottage Grove, Oregon, Weyerhaeuser Co. operated a laminated beam plant.  The primary beam assembly building was built in the 1960's and, for a time, boasted the largest freespan flat roof (steel/wood lattice trusses) in the world at 320' (I think Boeing beat that one not long after with their 747 assembly plant).  The most remarkeable thing about that roof was that it also supported a track hoist system for moving beams from place to place.

            I worked in there briefly when they were laying up the "Caribou Crossing" beams for the Alaskan pipeline.  Some of those beams were 28" X 84" X 160' long and to see them gliding around hanging from that roof was pretty amazing!Jules Quaver for President   2004

          8. Piffin | Jan 19, 2003 09:44pm | #17

            A half barrel/quonset style like that, tried all the way down to the ground is one of the most wind resistant structures you can find, excepting the domes that Cloud designs, of course but same principle makes both solid.

            This riding arena will let wind in under it in addition to having an angle to create uplift with wind in a certain direction is why I mentioned uplift an engineers for connections to tie it down.

            I was on a condo job once with a lot of unfinished walls open where the sliding doors would open onto balconies. Three stories high and a gust of wind likted the whole thing like a box kite and brought it down..

            Excellence is its own reward!

          9. ponytl | Jan 20, 2003 01:32am | #18

            me be being cheap ... if i was you (and i'm sure your wife is glad i'm not) around here the salvage /demo guys usually take down the metal buildings and sell the parts.. I'd go with concrete piers and steel bays... (usually 25' to a bay)... metal perlins and a metal roof a few good guys could have her ride'n under cover in 2-3 days... I've seen 16x 50x100 used metal buildings on the ground for 2k... you can always change the height with your piers or a torch & welder...

          10. User avater
            CloudHidden | Jan 20, 2003 04:52am | #23

            Love ya, man--thanks for the mention. Y'all know I don't run around hard-selling them to people, but as I was reading about clearspans and uplift and such, t'was awfully tempting to chime in. We could do an easy and amazingly-strong riding arena for lou. 46' clear ain't nothing! No worries about load or uplift. Horses couldn't eat it, either! Ha ha ha.

          11. User avater
            BossHog | Jan 20, 2003 04:44am | #21

            The barrel shaped building you described are framed with "bowstring trusses" They're typically underdesigned and/or overspaced.

            They're well know to firefighters, as they are prone to collapsing quickly in a fire.My karma ran over my dogma.

          12. FrankB89 | Jan 20, 2003 04:50am | #22

            I can't speak to the under-designed.

            Most of these buildings had firestop walls about every fourth bent or on each side of equipment like veneer dryeers that were prone to fires.  They also had pretty extensive dry-valve fire suppression systems that saved more than one of them more than once!Jules Quaver for President   2004

  4. FrameBoss | Jan 18, 2003 02:36am | #9

    wood trusses can handle it  it may require a heafty bottom cord but they will span I've set a few that were that long that didn't bear on anything so techincally they weren't clear  span but in theory they were. When you set them watch your lacer thats a lota roof to get away from you.

    1. fredsmart48 | Jan 18, 2003 03:15am | #10

      farmers use poll barns 49' by 100' with 16 ft side walls. 

  5. barnbuilder | Jan 20, 2003 03:36am | #19

    I would tend to agree with Boss hog about the need for trusses in this application. but as for resisting wind and lateral loads, our common practice for buildings of that type would include a knee brace that runs from the post (three feet down from the top of the beam) at a 45degree angle to the top cord of the truss (this would require about a 10' 2x6 @ each post. 

    Another concern I would have with your described design would be the amount of weight on the beam. Might I recommend installing a 3ply 2x10 beam notched into the 6x6 This would not require any more lumber but greatly increase the bearing capacity of the beam. Then attach a 2' x 2' 3/4" plywood gusset at each post to help resist uplift and provide more lateral stability.

    Even with trusses, knee bracing and plywood gussets you will be quite surprised how much moment you will still have when you are up there installing your roofing.

    I also agree with Piffin that the ceiling height is too low, bump it up to a minimum of 14' your only added cost if its an open barn is a few feet of post.

    One more word of advice when dealing with these larger span structures. Don't let your bottom dollar affect the way you build it (remember who is going to be riding in there) 

    I hope this help and best of luck to you!



    Edited 1/19/2003 7:37:50 PM ET by fearless

    1. Piffin | Jan 20, 2003 05:17am | #24

      The wind loads I was concerned about were the uplift more than the lateral. Each and every connection is drawn into that. The knbees only deal with the lateral loading.

      Top of post to beams.

      Each truss or framing member to the beam.

      Each furring to the trusses

      All the metal roof connectors.

      BOSS,

      Those modern metal shells are weaker like that but some I have seen in west Texas that were built in and after the Second WW are solid wood and good structures. I'm betting his description of two inch sheathing makes this one of them. They have stood up to a couple generations of tornados now. They were cotton warehouses and gymnasiums, etc..

      Excellence is its own reward!

      1. barnbuilder | Jan 20, 2003 08:41am | #25

        Uplift is defanatly a concern, and there are multiple ways of dealing with the uplift at the different framing points.

        We use the plywood gussets at each post to help hold down the beam, our truss supplier supplies us with the amount of factored uplift at each truss bearing point (which will change with each buildings design and location) where we install metal hangers to hold the trusses to the beam.

        As for the connections of furring to the trusses and metal fastening that is again region specific and a local builder should be able to give some general guidelines for those applications.

          

  6. ian | Jan 20, 2003 04:51pm | #26

    Have you considered a fabric sail structure.  These are very common here for shade.  Would be simpliest with a central post (if her indoors will allow), however will also work with other arrangements.  Big advantage is no roof beams, but you will require solid ground anchors.  Next weekend will get to, photograph and post picture of the shade sails at a local car park to give you the idea.  Accomodating wind loading is just a design problem. 

    1. Piffin | Jan 21, 2003 02:35am | #27

      Interesting idea but since a horses natural enemy is a mountain lion, they are pretty skittery when something moves above them. It might take a lot of training for them to get over this idea..

      Excellence is its own reward!

      1. ian | Jan 21, 2003 01:14pm | #28

        Now I definitely have to take and post that photo. 

        I might call it a "sail" but when it is attached on all sides to tensioned steel cable that is solidly anchored to the ground it is much closer to a rigid roof than the flapping sail you find on a boat.  

        I've stayed in a 4 star hotel where the dinning room had glass walls and a tensioned fabric roof.  As for scale, the largest tensioned roof I know of is that over the Munich Olympic stadium.

        1. Piffin | Jan 21, 2003 10:24pm | #29

          Know what you mean now..

          Excellence is its own reward!

  7. DavidR8 | Feb 01, 2003 10:23pm | #30

    Totally non-helpful post, but do you have any pics your barn? I am looking at building a six stall as well.

    Thanks

    David

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