Ten days ago I showed a Buyer a house on Sunday. He fell in love with the house and wanted to buy it and we made a formal offer the next day.
The house was a bank repo that had been on the market for only a couple of days.
So in this transaction I am considered to be the “Selling Agent”.
Three days later the “Listing Agent” called me and indicated there were two offers on the house and, per standard procedure, both Buyers are then encouraged to make their “highest and best offer”.
The listing agent disclosed to me that he was working with the Buyer who made the other offer! This really complicates things !
My Buyer went ahead and made his best and highest offer on Friday and today the Listing Agent called me and said the bank had accepted the offer from the other Buyer. So I had to call my Buyer and tell him the bad news that he didn’t get the house he so dearly wanted and he was heartbroken. He really wanted this house.
Has this ever happened to you?
We will never know if the Listing Agent revealed what my Buyer had offered for the house.
The Listing Agent is not supposed to reveal what the other offer was, even to his own Buyer. He is not supposed to “coach” his client on the price and give him an unfair advantage.
Edited 11/20/2007 10:08 pm by mrfixitusa
Edited 11/20/2007 10:34 pm by mrfixitusa
Edited 11/20/2007 10:53 pm by mrfixitusa
Replies
Mrfix....
As you too well know you know there is no answer. I have allways hated dual agency because of the conflicts. That can be the kinda of subtle problems as this deal was or they can be the blatent thievery. No good answers.
That said....
Ya know, I am beginning to think the entire system of buying & selling RE is broken. I have more or less had these thoughts for several years. Everything is wrong or badly "tainted". The RE agents and their procedures, the appraisers, the lenders (they appear to have made themselves a bit of a problem latley) the title companies and the home inspectors. They all have a blood on their hands.
Pretty much everything sux if you are a buyer or seller. All of the people that "aid" the deal are profiting from you. I just think it is crazy that it costs thousands and thousands of dollars to simply transfer a home title. ( and I am a reformed HI)
OK I'll take a 1/2 step off my soapbox. This would be a monumental task and nobody or group is to the task. One of my fears is that HUD will try to "solve " the problem.
Kinda a bummer. All I can suggest is to become a savvy buyer and seller. And thats a real hard education to get.
In our area we have a couple of agents who specialize in repos. Two times I made offers on houses that had no offers on them for over 90 days. Each time my agent took the offer to one of the top repo listing agents and both times another buyer suddenly appeared with the same senerio that you just had. Each time their buyer bid just over my bid and each time I lost the deal. Each time further it "happened" to be one of her regular investor clients.
All that really happened is no activity on the house occured. I show up an make a low ball offer. She gets her regulars to bid just above me. The bank says "man we have two offers of the same amount so this thing must only be worth that, we better sell to the high bidder". Her guy gets to be the high bidder. I just opened the door.
In checking around this happens a lot with her. Later I got to know a guy that works with her a lot and he said she will call up on occasion and ask if he is looking for a deal. I don't deal with her listings anymore. We can hate it but that is just how real business works sometimes. DanT
Dan you mentioned making an offer on a house that has been on the market for a while and I had kind of a similar experience.I work with a woman who buys "lower end" houses to use as rentals and in October I showed her several houses. She has me run a computer search and find the biggest houses for the lowest price in a certain area she likes. This area is kind of a rough part of town and houses do not sell quickly.Anyway, I ran a search and we looked at some houses and we found one she wanted. It was a bank repo that had been on the market for a while.It was priced at $52,000 and she offered $45 and the bank quickly accepted her offer.I am the "Selling Agent" and I am working with the Buyer.So the "Listing Agent" then went into the MLS computer system and lowered the asking price from $52,000 to $46,000 !!!I saw this and thought why would he do this? Well, he is hoping someone else will come along and want the house and they will be a back up Buyer, in the event we ask for anything (such as a price reduction after inspections, or we ask for something to be fixed after we inspect it, etc)That way he has some leverage against us and we can't really ask for anything or make any demands.
Same senario
Hi Dan T.
I'd report her to the Real Estate Commission.
If they take it seriously and research it, she could get hung.
But don't RE agents make up the board or commission? I think the idea of real estate agents self policing themselves absurd. They have had many chances to improve their image and always seem to blow it.
What is needed is a smart buying public. And they won't get smart from a "free buyer education class" put on by a RE agent.
This has been a great thread
First of all, I agree that many RE Agents are lazy, less than scupulous, and will sell their mother for cash.
(I have heard people say the same about builders and contractors and based on some of the work I have been hired to fix over the last few years, I understand why they say it about Contractors)
There are also many good RE Agents that do earn their money.
A friend of mine happens to be board chair for the appeals commission in one of our neighboring states. She sees it all and is appalled at what she sees. She blames it on poor training but regardless, she finds against these agents pretty regularly and would report them to the board of realtors if she could. That is not her roll and often the victim doesnt know to take it to the next level so that these less than reputable agents can be de-frocked.
It is probably no different than any other industry where every person is basically an independent contractor.
had a broker refuse to pay me for an inspection, i told him i would report it to the board he laughed out loud and said he was the prez of it. i was young and Naive. however i do have a list.......
i really have no answers for this,i do think if it was possible that the first offer should of been a 24 hour offer,not always possible with repo's as the bank has it's "channel's" to go through.
i know it's hard when you find the right house but i have always hit the road the minute "we have another buyer" hand played. i started that when i was first getting started and still the second i hear it i just say great take his offer cause i'm done.
back in 1979/80 i sold re. i had a guy that would make a offer,but when it was presented he wanted to be there,now this is before buyer /seller agents. so we would set up the meeting at the office,listing agent,selling agent,buyer seller all sitting there at the table. i saw some great negotateing go on and i don't think i ever saw the buyer not walk out of that room without a contract.but let me tell you he was a master when it got close he would get into everybodys pocket if thats what it took. remember intrest was 12 and going to 15...yea those were the days.
betcha supper that he might not of told them the number but he told them where they needed to be........ cause he makes twice as much money than with your buyer. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Larry, the house is about 3100 to 3200 sq ft, 1963 Ranch, three bedroom, and built in a part of town where the houses are on 1, 2, or 3 acre lots. They were built in the 1950's and 60'sThe house is unique in that there is an exterior door in almost every room of the house.It is a U shaped ranch house with a courtyard.The master bedroom had a large sliding patio door, Bedroom #3 has a regular exterior door to the back yard, the dining room has a large sliding patio door, the family room has an exterior door, and there are TWO outside doors in a large workshop type of room beside the garage.
This is a JOKE,
But only about 1/2 of one really .
I didn't know Realtors had ethics.
took the words right out of my mouth!
I didn't know Realtors had ethics.
State law here dictates highest and best price for the seller. Buyer only gets fair dealing. Sometimes not even that.
Been awhile since I was licensed but it wasn't unusual to get a call from the listing agent saying they had another offer, suggesting it was time for my buyer to raise the bid. Whether or not there was another buyer one never knows. But the listing agent was in fact going for highest and best price. Which might also have been my job, depending on who I was representing.
Agency is everything. Often there's a good reason to deal with the listing agent. This thread was a classic example.
Violations of ethics should go to the licensing board. Here, they investigate, fine, suspend or revoke licenses. Proof, obviously is sometimes difficult. I've urged buyers here to go to the board a couple of times. Realtor complaints are usually handled by the local association.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Most realtors are less than people.
"Most realtors are less than people"
That sounds like what I hear about contractors.
You must deal with the wrong class of contractor. In 17 years, I can count on 2 hands the people who will never work for me again. That covers an area from Maine to Georgia,including Manhattan but mostly Mass based. Most of my long term relationships bend over backwards for me. Perhaps they know that I don't shop them or beat them down on price, good pay and paid quickly for good quility work. Sounds pretty basic to me.A fair amount of Realtors in much less time than that have proven to be at best, one level above most lawyers. The latest one not telling a neighbor across the street that we were planning a 35 lot subdivission. You should have seen the look on his face.
I agree that realtors are above lawyers and used car salesmen.
Let's not forget politicians if we are going to set up a hierarchy of shame.
In this case it would be wise of you to believe more of what you read and less of what you hear.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Ethics? Recently bought a house that was "completely renovated", and according to the owner and Listing agent, had a brand new underground fiberglass oil tank installed. I go into the basement and see old oil lines running to the new boiler, so I'm pretty sure there's no new tank. Check with the oil supplier, they know nothing.Check with the building department, no records. Now i'm sure there's no new tank. We can't get a loan without leak insurance on the tank. I can't buy insurance , but can transfer a policy that the current owner buys. So the tank gets tested and an insurance policy bought by the current owner. And these realtors get thousands of dollars for supposedly helping the deal get done. Pretty disgusting in my opinion.
Should have told the seller: 'gee the building dept says you never pulled a permit for that new tank and they are going to fine you and make you do a soil test and clean up any contanimets.'
Yeah. Should of thought of that. Ended up working out ok. But maybe it could have worked out better,$$$
In my experience, it's rare to find a RE agent with any ethics about repping their primary client properly, in any kind of transaction.
Two examples, both widows selling the old homestead: In each case the listing agent already had a buyer for the house...if the agent could convince the seller that the house was worth considerably less than it's true market value.
Of course the listing agent didn't tell the seller because that would indicate a conflict of interest, even to a naive first timer.
After convincing the seller to take about fifteen percent less than market value (house needs a lot of work...BS), she magically comes up with a buyer, before the house has even been listed for sale.
So the house is never put on the market and the listing agent takes both halves of the commission plus whatever else she's getting on the side from the buyer.
The seller ended up, in both cases, with one hundred thousand less than her house was really worth and the real estate agent took about twenty-five thousand dollars off the top, in commissions.
This is just one obvious example of the slimey tactics used in the real estate business. I could write a few chapters if anyone wants to publish a serious article on the subject.
I wonder how anyone in the Real Estate business can rationalise that shid.
I could write a few chapters if anyone wants to publish a serious article on the subject.
Hudson, chapters are welcome here if you feel so inclined. Finding this very interesting and informative.
If there isn't a good book already out there detailing corrupt RE transactions there should be. It would be a good seller.
Rez,
I think it would be much more informative if someone who has worked in RE sales, a person who has been through a particular training regimen (Century 21, Re-Max, etc.) and has hung out with some old pros in major cities...if that kind of person were to begin a thread on RE sales tactics so that others here, like me, could add an illustrative anecdote or two.
Cousin's husband when living in Cal was a RE agent. Use to tell me stories.
Hangings too good for some of those 'people?'.
Edited 11/21/2007 6:12 pm ET by rez
The two widows I wrote about lived near my parents, had been friends of theirs and were with each other. I offered to advise and assist each of them when the time came to sell their homes. As it happened they sold in succeeding years.
I told them that I'd observed some sales tactics which might be unfavorable to their interests, therefore I'd really like to keep in touch with them during the listing and sales process.
Unfortunately the listing agents managed to push each of them into quick deals for much less than market value. Neither house was ever put on the market so no legitimate buyer ever had an opportunity to make an offer. And neither lady ever thought that there was anything wrong so they didn't confer with me or anyone else. Sad.
Sad indeed.
I generally distrust anyone who makes their living off of being in between two people conducting their own business.
A damn shame opportunism is.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
used to do roof inspections every time i failed a roof they just threw it out and got some gubber to pass it, I wanted my 75 bucks they told me to bugger off, The brokers were on the ethics committee Maybe some where there honest doubt it but i dunno my rose colored glasses are all fogged up
the listing agent should have submitted his offer to the broker in charge... and let the BIC handle both offers.
Good point - that would take care of the conflict of interest.Real estate is a funny business. I'm here in Wichita and every other person you meet is a realtor or has been one at some time in the past.I started five years ago and went to work at a large company. A nation wide company. I left after a year as I was tired of paying a monthly fee just to work for them.Many people try real estate and quit after a few months. This is very common.Many people don't want to work for someone else or they don't want to pay monthly fees or they don't want to split their commission with their broker, so they get their broker's license and leave their company and go out on their own.There are many many one person real estate companies or maybe it's two person husband and wife type of company.Anyway, that's what I'm dealing with. The listing agent who I talked about previously, is in a one man company and so he is the Broker. There's no "neutral party" Broker for him to turn this over to.
I am confused (no comments from the peanut gallery). You mention a listing agent and a selling agent, along with a buyers agent.As I undersand it there are only 2 agents or 1 with dual agency.The agent that represents the seller, the selling agent and the one representing the buyer..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
This stuff does get really confusing. I didn't do a very good job of explaining, but what happened is I showed a house and my guy wanted to buy it and we made an offer.The other realtor had listed the home, AND found an interested party to buy the home, and their offer was accepted yesterday.So the other realtor will end up working with BOTH the Seller and the Buyer in this transaction. He will get both commissions. We got left out in the cold and my buyer thinks he got screwed on this deal.
This is a classic example of the principal-agent problem.<!----><!----><!---->
The listing agent’s incentives align more with the buyer than the seller. There is a strong incentive to under price the property for a quick sell. Suppose you could list a house for full value and expect to sell it in 2-3 months (and numerous showings with lots of work on your part). If you under price it you may sell in a week with little work. In addition, suppose the homeowner takes a $50,000 income hit if you price low. The realtor only takes a fraction of that loss, since the commission on the extra $50,000 is relatively small.<!----><!---->
The realtor will try to price low and drive the price down because a quick sale with a lower commission is better than a long and hard sale with a slightly higher commission. They will attempt to convince the homeowner to take the low offer, and perhaps even signal to the buyer that the owner ‘will take some off’ because they are a ‘motivated seller’. <!----><!---->
The homeowner (taking the $50,000 bath) doesn't quite see it that way. In addition, the low price/quick sell allows the realtor to handle more volume, thus restoring any commission lost by selling below market price.<!----><!---->
The truth be told, I am surprised more realtors do not act in a contrary interest to their clients, given the incentives involved. Perhaps they do not fully understand the economic incentives them themselves (but many do). It is a system that is set-up to fail in some regard.
That's an excellent outline/review of some major faults in the way real estate is sold.
That would all be common knowledge if our newspapers had ever been responsible in reporting the facts about the RE business.
BUT...of course the real estate business is a big advertising client for the newspaper industry so...don't rock the boat. Journalism is supposed to be above such influences. That's the ideal anyway.
I worked for a buyer/seller group who dealt in rental properties and land. I learned that the community had a host of major "players" in the business, both small time entreprenuers and individuals within larger companies. They were high on cash and low on morals. They made lots of money and left a lot of people out in the cold. Flipping properties was their favorite line of business, which nearly required that a certain level of deception be practiced at nearly every transaction. Real estate is a buyer beware type of market. One is best to assume that they can only control a certain measure of scalping received (thus expect it) and that a percentage of such is always commensurate with the amount of experience one has in the game.But, many people celebrate that way of doing business and say the market regulates itself. I don't ascribe to that philosophy entirely as the market is only as honest or true as those who make up the market and those with the most cash win, honesty has nothing to do with that.One of my daughters wants to get into real estate and be a "player". She's got the mercenary personality for it. I even have to watch that child, she'll take me for a dollar and have me convinced I'm receiving ten instead. She's a born shyster.
"Flipping properties was their favorite line of business, which nearly required that a certain level of deception be practiced at nearly every transaction."You are overreaching and arriving at an illogical conclusion. There is no basis for that statement. You basically are painting every flipper, big and small, in your area as thieves. A lot of people say the same thing about builders and remodelers. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
The dust has settled and I wanted to review the bidding. This is where we're at as of 11-24-07.The house went on the market on or about 11-7-07. I called my client 2-3 days later and asked him to drive by the house and he did and wanted to see it.On 11-11-07 I showed it and he fell in love with it and we made an offer the next day. The home was priced at $206 and my client offered $185.Three days later I was notified there were multiple offers (2) and both parties were encouraged to reconsider and make their best offer. We did that the next day but we didn't raise our offering price. We offered to close in two weeks. $5 K in earnest money. My client would pay $50 cash and finance $130. It was a strong offer.On Tuesday of this week I was informed the bank had accepted the other offer which was $180 CASH and close in 7 days. The other buyer is a real estate investment group. They are pros. They will buy the house next week.I asked the other agent for a letter from the seller stating they have accepted my client's offer as a back up and that we are in second place but he hasn't responded.My buyer is very disappointed. The other party is buying the home for $5 K less. He asked "Do they at least give you a jar of vaseline?" I said "I don't think so". He drives by the house every day on his way to work and he will remember this for a while and feel like he got shafted.Looking back I wouldn't change anything we did. Do you see anything you would have done differently?I know it's common for a cash buyer to be able to buy a house for a lower price. It doesn't seem fair though.
When you analyze the amount of time that can go into a mortgage arrangement and then factor in the amount of times that the loan doesn't close, I think you start to get a better picture. There are monthly carrying costs associated with the time the loan takes: insurance, interest, utilities, etc. There might be other factors too like inspections and other closing costs. Also, you probably don't really understand the motivation that the seller has. That seller might have an opportunity to transfer his equity into a great investment if they move within ten days. Your mortgage offer might take them out of that investment opportunity. The 5k might seem like a lot to your buyer but the seller might lost 50k by not having the money to move fast. There are hundreds of reasons why the cash offer might be better. Your buyer sounds like a novice in the game of real estate and if they are going to agonize over every offer than isn't accepted, they probably shouldn't offer anymore. Also, if I was a seller, I wouldn't send any letter to anyone. I don't need to talk to my attorney to know that written letters like that have a potential do come back to haunt me. I'm surprised that you would make a request like that. The only thing you could have done differently was to offer 180k and close in 4 days. You would have gotten the deal. Your buyer doesn't have that kind of resource so they have to accept that they came in second place. Instead of whining, they should start looking for the next finish line. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
If he was totally interested in owning the home in question- when you were asked for H B offer you should have raised his offered price by at least 5k.
The offer you produced only offered better terms than your first offer- closing earlier,etc. The earnest money part meant very little.
If you're acting as buyers agent then you'd best make them aware of the nuances of multiple offers and H B offers. Usually just making slightly better terms won't seal the deal. Usually both parties up their offered price.
When I stated my anecdote about flippers you said; "You are overreaching and arriving at an illogical conclusion. There is no basis for that statement. You basically are painting every flipper, big and small, in your area as thieves."<<I deleted a portion of this post as the quote I put in was apparently not from Jim Allen, sorry about that.>> I stand by what I said, having put in over a year dealing on a professional B2B level with property flippers and RE agents. I didn't make up what I said and I'd suggest you take what I said seriously as amateurs get eaten up easily in real estate. Frankly I left the business as I didn't have the stomach for it, some people do, like as I joked, my daughter. But a moral barometer is certainly necessary as temptation lingers around the real estate pond like an oil slick.Also, thanks for patronizing me with your comparison to remodelers and builders. I'm quite well aware of their problems with reputation, often well deserved and will not argue that point with you.But, unlike the real estate business, the model of the remodeling/building trade does not encourage dishonest or questionable business practices. In fact, unlike RE, one can prosper more often with knowledgeable customers in the construction business than with naive ones.Although the real estate business must have honest realtors in order to keep from rotting from the inside out, the crux of my statement was that the inexperienced should watch their back -- very carefully.
Edited 11/24/2007 3:57 pm ET by girlbuilder
As a real estate professional you should be aware that all of the terms of the offer are a factor. Your resentment that the lower cash offer was accepted is unwarranted. Losing a deal is frustrating, but a part of the game. It is a game, it is monopoly with real money and real people go bankrupt. As an investor I have lost deals where mine was the highest dolllar offer with contingencies, I have also won deals where mine was the lowest offer with cash and no contigencies. As a seller looking at two competing offers I look at the total offer, financing, inspections, closing date. I recently had a disappointed want to be owner accused me and my agent of collusion for accepting what I, the seller deemed a stronger offer. The two offers were very close in dollars and worlds apart in strength. The losing offer had weaker financing (pre-qual letter for less than the deal), long inspection windows, and asked for multiple concessions with a nonnegotiable closing date. On this particular deal I needed to close after a certain date for tax purposes. The winning offer was for a thousand dollars less in contract price, had a bank financing commitment for that address, quick inspections and my close date. Not only was I far more confident that the deal would close, I netted more after Uncle Sam took his not insignificant cut. All of which took place while my agent was in the Carribean and his worthless assistant was handling the calls. Like you the losing agent wanted assurances from me that I had accepted a higher offer, fortunately my agent's assistant wouldn't relay my response. The "best" offer gets the deal, not always the highest dollar. The deal is between the buyer and seller, real estate agents are a necessary evil to get exposure in the only marketing outlet that makes any difference, MLS.
jp... have mercy.... try using your return key.. it looks like something worth reading.. but the solid print is daunting
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97348.77 in reply to 97348.73
As a real estate professional you should be aware that all of the terms of the offer are a factor. Your resentment that the lower cash offer was accepted is unwarranted.
Losing a deal is frustrating, but a part of the game. It is a game, it is monopoly with real money and real people go bankrupt.
As an investor I have lost deals where mine was the highest dolllar offer with contingencies, I have also won deals where mine was the lowest offer with cash and no contigencies. As a seller looking at two competing offers I look at the total offer, financing, inspections, closing date.
I recently had a disappointed want to be owner accused me and my agent of collusion for accepting what I, the seller deemed a stronger offer. The two offers were very close in dollars and worlds apart in strength. The losing offer had weaker financing (pre-qual letter for less than the deal), long inspection windows, and asked for multiple concessions with a nonnegotiable closing date.
On this particular deal I needed to close after a certain date for tax purposes. The winning offer was for a thousand dollars less in contract price, had a bank financing commitment for that address, quick inspections and my close date.
Not only was I far more confident that the deal would close, I netted more after Uncle Sam took his not insignificant cut. All of which took place while my agent was in the Carribean and his worthless assistant was handling the calls.
Like you the losing agent wanted assurances from me that I had accepted a higher offer, fortunately my agent's assistant wouldn't relay my response. The "best" offer gets the deal, not always the highest dollar. The deal is between the buyer and seller, real estate agents are a necessary evil to get exposure in the only marketing outlet that makes any difference, MLS.
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
the house next door went up for sale. they are asking 30 k more than it worth,and some dumb fool will pay it. and then all the property tax value in the neighborhood goes up 30k. They dont look at each house but what sells. i can put a one bedroom slum in a million dollar subdivion and it worth a million dollars.so I guess I need to put the other cars on block, quit cutting the grass, get the lawn jockey out and fly the rebel flag from my porch, wall around in my boxers
"they are asking 30 k more than it worth,and some dumb fool will pay it."If someone pays 30 k "more", it really isn't "more". It's worth exactly what someone will pay, not one penny more or one penny less. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
How would you have handled the situation I described.You want to buy a house but you are competing with someone who wants the house and they know how much you've offered.Your competition has an unfair advantage over you.
It is not a "fair" game. In all likelyhood the other agent didn't have a buyer waiting in the wings just to screw you over. Chances are that one of their clients had expressed a passing interest, was considering it but not acting, lollygagging in one way or another. As a "sharp" agent, they mentioned to that client that there was an offer on the property and if they were indeed interested they would need to act. In this scenario said "sharp" agent would also act in their own and arguably the seller's best interest by indicating what an "acceptable" offer might be. The ethics are debatable, the reality is undeniable. Ethics in real estate are an oxymoron and it is a cutthroat culture as all commisioned businesses are. Real Estate deals almost always have a winner and loser and sometimes people cheat to win. The true beauty is that the next deal is always around the corner and you might be the winner. In the meantime you do what is ethical for you, you get to sleep well and live with your decisions. You'll win more games in the long run.That was a long answer to a short question. Short answer: I would move on to one of the other three or four deals I should be looking at. Or I could sit home and cry in my beer losing out on the next better opportunity.
I just re-read your original post and I may have been too harsh, forgot you were representing a want to be homeowner, not an investor. Playing the bank repo game with a rookie on the roster can be tough. If your client had already moved in mentally I'm sure it was crushing for them. That said, repos tend to be a bloody chum slick in shark infested waters.
"But, unlike the real estate business, the model of the remodeling/building trade does not encourage dishonest or questionable business practices."
Really? You think they are not exactly the same with the same amount of buyer beware risk? Probably 70% of the people I work for have little or no idea what is going into the bathroom we remodel for them other than what the fixtures, colors and floor look like. The actual specifications, although we provide them, are of little or no interest to them. So in reality they are at our mercy.
If we choose to half @$$ the plumbing we could. If we choose to elinate lumber from the wall we could. 55% of our clients (I recently was working on these stats) don't even care or ask for a specific faucet or brand of faucets for that matter. We suggest and recomend and they accept.
I have flipped houses and own rentals. Rehabbed them all. I don't consider myself a thief in either my remodeling business nor real estate ventures. I am one of the larger remodelers in my area (small area) but not one of the major players in real estate. But the business models are the same in my mind. Buyer beware on both fronts. You have to have trust in either one and you can equally screw someone in either one. DanT
When I wrote that Dan, I was thinking more along the fact that in the remodeling business we provide a more open and tangible service and product, we are more often at the mercy of the customer just as much as they are to us. Within the real estate dealings that I saw, oftentimes the transfer was merely cash with nothing tangible and/or so complicated as to confuse and therefore obscufate who and how benefits from the transactions.Granted and I said this, there are decent people buying and selling property, if not for them, just like in any business model, the whole thing would crash. Unlike the shysters who like to think of themselves as exemplifying the 'real' way things should be done (and somehow heros of the free market), honest people carry the burden of loss caused by the dishonest and everyone is slowed as a result as well.Possibly what I witnessed and enjoined in were the worse of the worse, or my ethical standards are too high (not saying by any means that I have a halo hanging over my head), but I know I was disgusted by what I witnessed, the incestuous dealings, the back stabbing, the blatant dishonesty and unfettered greed, that I'd had enough of it and left it behind.That's not to say I wouldn't get into it again on my own or with someone else, but I don't think I'll ever trust anyone in that business nor have the glossy-eyed idea that all is fair in love and war. It ain't.
Edited 11/25/2007 11:49 am ET by girlbuilder
Refreshing!
"Refreshing!"Thanks Observer, although I was brought back here by an email notice of a posting from someone calling themselves 'original dick'. I guess like some dicks I've encountered, its exposure requires more effort than I have patience for.
Reregistering every time they play around with the format of the forum has resulted in my having a number of user names here; that was one of mine some time ago and I'm surprised to see it's still in use.As my wife would happily inform you, this particular (capital letter) Dick does require more than a little patience but I would have thought none of the ubiquitous (small letter) dicks require any patience at all to expose, just a little encouragement.I appreciate anyone for whom ethics and morals are more than simply definitions found in the dictionary.
"As my wife would happily inform you, this particular (capital letter) Dick does require more than a little patience but I would have thought none of the ubiquitous (small letter) dicks require any patience at all to expose, just a little encouragement."A sense of humor is the mark of a good man.
Edited 11/26/2007 2:49 pm ET by girlbuilder
Thanks for your observations. I agree with you on all points. Got a good chuckle from what you said about your kid too. It's a wise mother who knows when to let 'em go and discover how life works, on their own dime.
Your comments remind me that RE sales isn't unique in it's deceptive practices, just better organized to cover them up. I worked in direct sales for a while when I was young. I'd get all cranked up about a new sales pitch, go out and make a few sales but eventually discover where the customer was being misled.
From these misadventures I became more discerning about sales tactics, something I wish was addressed in high school.
My $0.02 here - I'm in the biz, and from my perspective there are some errors in your post:
Suppose you could list a house for full value and expect to sell it in 2-3 months (and numerous showings with lots of work on your part).
Error #1: Most listings in an MLS in my part of the world are sold by an agent other than the listing agent. It may differ in some areas, but many many buyers have their own agent representing them.
It's true that a faster sale is nice for all parties concerned. It is equally true that there are slackers, slouches and slimeballs in the real estate business. There are in any business where other people's money is involved. Building is another such trade.
But it's also true that there are many ethical, decent people in real estate.
In addition, suppose the homeowner takes a $50,000 income hit if you price low. The realtor only takes a fraction of that loss, since the commission on the extra $50,000 is relatively small.<!----><!---->
Yes and no. Say I make 1.4% of the sale price on a home (my typical take - top end might be 1.8%). So a $50K price reduction would cost me $700. In my neck of the woods, that's a significant amount of money, especially in light of the fact that the average Realtor nationally sells 10-12 houses and makes ~$30K per year.
In addition, the low price/quick sell allows the realtor to handle more volume, thus restoring any commission lost by selling below market price.<!----><!---->
Servicing a listing that's active isn't that much work. The work is all done BEFORE the listing, and after the sale goes into escrow. The effort to service additional listings isn't that great - it isn't that much tougher to service 10 listings at a time than it is 20. Any Realtor doing more business than that probably has at least one other person in the office helping out, working exclusively w/ buyers, etc.
Jason
Jason,<!----><!----><!---->
Thank you for your reply. I am certainly not in the business of judging the morals of any profession or person. From a purely economic point of view, the incentive structure as I see it is setup such that there is not a perfect alignment of the agent’s interests and the seller’s interests. Agents with strong morals can overcome this flaw, while those with weak ones can exploit it.<!----><!---->
One might ask why we don't just pay a flat fee to the agent (i.e. why is their compensation based on the selling price of the house at all)? I believe there are a couple of answers to that. First, an expensive house/listing may require more work on the agent’s part (of course, we could just pay a higher flat fee for more expensive listings). More importantly, a flat fee would exacerbate the incentive problem. If you were paid a flat fee, there would be no income hit if the selling price was reduced. And like you said, $700 can be a significant amount of money (of course, not nearly as significant as the $49,300 hit the homeowner takes).<!----><!---->
The current percentage system is actually an attempt to align the agent’s interests with the seller (much like stock options are an attempt to align a CEO's interests with those of the shareholders and a commission driven sales force is an attempt to align the interests of the store and sales staff). All three of these attempts work, but all are imperfect. RE agents can lowball price for quick sales, CEO's can work to raise short run stock price while potentially harming long run price, salespeople can lie and manipulate to make sales. <!----><!---->
The basic problem in all the above examples is their incentives are not perfectly aligned, and some people can use that to 'maximize' their utility at the expense of their employer’s profits. Is there a better system out there? I don't know. My guess is probably not or it would be employed already.
K1500, all fee structures are negotiable.I've entered into flat fee arrangements with agents, even those that told me that they couldn't do it. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Jim,<!----><!----><!---->
That is true, but I am not sure if a better system of aligning incentives exists than the current commission based structure.<!----><!---->
A flat fee provides zero economic incentive to the agent to get a high price for your property, since they take no income hit when the price goes down, nor do they benefit when price goes up.
I realize we are mostly talking about people and I am talking about incentives. People respond to incentives, but they do not all behave in the same manner. Are there people out there who would work hard to get you the highest price in a sale for a flat fee? Of course (especially if their future reputation and business depend on it). Are the incentives pushing them the other way to a low price? Yes.
You can make good arguments for any fee structure. I added a seller bonus of $1000 to keep my listing at the top of the agents mental list. That, along with the best price in the sub got my condo sold in this horrible buyer's market. To illustrate how tough the market is: my tenant told me that she purchased (on a lease option) a new condo after the builder dropped the asking price by 70k!!!!! She payed 109k!!!!!!If I hadn't structured my sales agreement with the realtor to keep them hot on my property, it would have languished with all the others and I'd be looking at offers of 100k to compete with the new builders stock. I payed over 150k a few years ago. Is this realtor ethics at work...or just market conditions? To me, it's all market conditions. The market works in mysterious ways and we, as sellers, have to do what we have to do. The realtors are middlmen but the buyers and sellers have final say on everything, including all offers, acceptances and instructions to the realtors in the form of listing contracts. Like everything in life: let the buyer beware. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Thanks to everyone for their input. I took note of the opinions that "realtors are unethical and can't be trusted" and on the other hand enjoyed reading the other side of the coin and posts about realtors doing a good job, spending money out of their own pocket to place newspaper ads, getting the house sold quickly" etc.I don't know if there's any interest in continuing this thread or not but I wanted to throw out another question.Have you sold your own home without the services of a realtor?If so, how did it go? Around here you save a 6% commission sales fee if you sell your house FSBOThanks again for your input and experiences.
I've done it both ways. In hot markets, a simple sign outside will get it sold. In tough times, there aren't enough lookers and the exposure generated by the MLS is important. Individuals can list their homes on the MLS but agents blackball the listing and won't show it unless they are forced to by a client coming in with the listing from their own websearch.The use of the web seems to indicate that it should make individual marketing possible, but the realities are much different. In a buyers market, the price advantage can be huge if you sell it yourself, but few know how, or are willing to market it properly. 100 yard signs and directional signs might sell it in one weekend, but that amount of signs might get you a call from the authorities too. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I have not done FSBO. I might consider it, but I generally feel the other services an agent brings to the table are probably worth the cost in many instances.
I've sold two houses on my own, one to the tenant and the other to a neighbor. The deal with the tenant went fabulously and the deal with the neighbor involved the services of a cop. <G> I've also purchased a house without a realtor.I wouldn't use a realtor to sell a house if i could help it, sorry, but of realtors i've used to make offers, two were sharp and honest and two were dumb and honest. Another one...well, i've been interested in this thread bec i made an offer just as your client did, and the realtor holding the contract ended up buying it instead after i made the offer on a property that hadn't been shown in months, if ever, during a depressed market. I always wondered about the ethics of the realtor-broker himself buying the property once an offer forced his hand. I don't recall even getting a chance to counter. I'm thinking the guy was trying to hold off selling it to drive the price down as far as it could go before picking it up.
I've always thought that if a deal is good enough, the agents and brokers will buy it before it gets to the MLS. I think you might be right about this agent waiting to see how low the market will go. The agent might have been waiting for the seller's economic situation to deteriorate to make his offer. But, think about this: is it really wrong for the agent, who is also a potential buyer, to do this? In reality, it really isn't unethical. Other buyers do it and the agent is a "buyer" too, isn't he? Right now, we are waiting to make an offer on several properties because we feel that our best chance at getting it accepted is to wait it out a bit. That's just our theory and we aren't doing anything wrong by doing this.You might feel blindsided because that agent swooped in and made a better offer. The buyer might feel different though an be glad that your offer triggered the better offer from the agent. If you are forced to work with agents, you can insert a clause that demands that you be present when the offer is made. This will take some time, but it might help deter what happened to you. Another tactic might be to include a letter of intent. I've used letters of intent to make the buyer awared of my offer and the reasoning behind the offer. They normally don't hold any legal weight in real estate, but they are a powerful tool if used properly. I also often use a letter of intent before I make a formal offer for a remodeling project. If we agree in principal on the contract and terms, I put the offer into contract form. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Gonna have to disagree with you on this point:
I think you might be right about this agent waiting to see how low the market will go. The agent might have been waiting for the seller's economic situation to deteriorate to make his offer. But, think about this: is it really wrong for the agent, who is also a potential buyer, to do this? In reality, it really isn't unethical. Other buyers do it and the agent is a "buyer" too, isn't he?
The agent has information that was told to him or her in confidence by the seller. This deal smells of insider trading. I feel an agent would be ethically challenged to defend this type of deal.
I would never want to be a buyer and have to work with an agent who is going to outbid me on a good deal. Realtors should take the high road and avoid any chance of improprierty (sp). Of course pigs will fly first.
Maybe i wasn't clear. The listing agent/broker/guy-who-bought-it are the same person. She was elderly and had moved out of the area so i wouldn't doubt he hoped to be first in line for the estate sale until i forced his hand. I also wasn't clear that i made the offer to buy the property to the owner herself, not through the agent.I called the lady bec i saw a vacant property. I hadn't talked to an agent on it, just did a search of county records to find the owner. There wasn't even a realtor sign at the property. I found out about the realty contract when i called her. I suggested she fire him for non-performance and deal with me directly instead. She wasn't willing to chance repercussions, just wanted out, so she contacted the realtor to contact me. I could have lived with that, but that's when he ran under me. Does he have a right to do that? I suppose he has the same right that an insider trader does. It seems to me the expectation is that the RE office will represent the owner's interests, however, which the broker/agent clearly wasn't doing. The hand i held was the weakest of the three, however; no sense banging my head against that particular wall.Must've been a style that worked for him, since the broker went from a hole-in-the-wall to building his own office space. :^/
I'm familiar with a couple of FSBO experiences.A couple of years ago my phone rang and a friend/real estate client called and said "would you help me sell a house?" She said I have a Buyer and we're meeting this afternoon. I said "what?"She said "I ran an ad in the paper and found a woman who wants to buy one of my houses will you come over this afternoon and help us?"I said "uhhh" "welllll" "uhhhhh" suurreee I gggguess so and I went over.The Buyer had a one page real estate contract from Office Depot, I think. I had never seen one like it. It was a lot different from the Kansas real estate contract approved by the Kansas Real Estate Commission which is 5-6 pages.So I went over and met with them and the Buyer wrote a check for $100 for earnest money and both signed the contract.I went home and kicked myself saying "why did I get involved in this"I left the two parties alone and about a month or so later my friend, the seller, called me and said "I went to the closing today and the Buyer never showed up".I said "you're kidding"Long story short the Buyer flaked out and walked away without telling anyone what she had decided. How low is that?I don't remember the details but the Seller probably got stuck oweing some $$ to the Title Company who had prepared for the closing and then had it canceled without any notice.This wouldn't have happened if the Seller had listed the house and had a realtor. The realtor would have kept tabs on both parties to make sure the deal was going through.The $4.95 real estate contract the Buyer got a Walmart or wherever did not address things like:1. Inspections2. Repairs based upon inspections3. Earnest money4. What would happen in the event there were a homeowners insurance claim such as a fire 5. What would happen if there were a death to either Buyer or Seller)6. Who pays closing fees and cost of title insurance7. Who pays for termite inspection and treatment.Probably some other things I can't remember.I watched that process and wondered how people could muddle through the sale of a house if they haven't done it before? Would a seller know how to check out a buyer and their financial ability to buy a house?I guess it's possible it happens everyday?
"I called the lady bec i saw a vacant property. I hadn't talked to an agent on it, just did a search of county records to find the owner. There wasn't even a realtor sign at the property. I found out about the realty contract when i called her. I suggested she fire him for non-performance and deal with me directly instead. She wasn't willing to chance repercussions, just wanted out, so she contacted the realtor to contact me. I could have lived with that, but that's when he ran under me."I always refrain from offering advise such as "fire your agent". The conversation can't go anywhere positive after that. A seasoned pro would carry a wide variety of contracts and be prepared to sign one exactly like the agent would present. This might not have worked, but I'd certainly have included it in my conversation and written offer: "The buyer agrees to pay all sellers fees including the fees associated with the existing listing contract". That basically takes away Grandma's objection. She might not go for it, but if you've invested enough time and let her suggest that idea as a clause, you're chances at getting the deal signed improve considerably. How do you get her to suggest such a thing? YOu use the "What if" phrasing. "What if I were to include a clause that said that I would pay all your selling costs and satisfy your legal obligations to your agent; is that something you might be interested in, or probably not?" The reverse phrasing and "what if" are powerful negotiating tools. Grand ma might later say to you after a brief explanation of what exactly that you mean: "Would you include that clause in a written offer so I can make sure my agent gets paid fairly and I can avoid an argument and legal battle?"Or, maybe it wouldn't work, but it would be worth a try....nothing ventured, nothing gained. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
From my conversations with realtors i trust, my understanding is that they have the sole legal right to sell a property during the time the seller and agent have contracted. I asked about what if i found a buyer quite on my own, and i was told i could withdraw the property from the market or negotiate their fee downward for handling the paperwork, but if they could prove i cancelled the contract in order to sell to someone without paying their fee, there could be repercussions. If a realtor is acting in good faith, this seems entirely appropriate and reasonable to insure their investment in time and advertising.Perhaps a 'seasoned pro' would've figured a way around it, but the truth is that some of the deals i read about on the forum venture pretty far into my dark-grey areas. I certainly had no trouble suggesting Granny fire a guy who isn't doing his job, but not bamboozling her into signing a contract against her inclinations. I wasn't hard-sell in my woodworking business, either, so i guess it's a good thing i've been lucky instead. <G>
Edited 11/28/2007 1:25 am by splintergroupie
I asked about what if i found a buyer quite on my own, and i was told i could withdraw the property from the market or negotiate their fee downward for handling the paperwork, but if they could prove i cancelled the contract in order to sell to someone without paying their fee, there could be repercussions.
My contracts (which are slightly modified versions of our standard Board of Realtors forms) have a clause which spells this out. In theory, at least, I'm entitled to recover my entire commission due should such an event occur, either during the term of the listing, or within a reasonable time afterwards (I typically ask for 30 days), if the buyer can be shown to have been acquired through my marketing efforts.
In practice, though - good luck proving it, much less collecting on it.
Jason
<<if the buyer can be shown to have been acquired through my marketing efforts>>Do you know of any cases where a realtor forced a suit to collect? It seemed like it would be pretty easy to cut a realtor out of a deal, provided one's mind worked like that.
You are misunderstanding, or not seeing a major point.I'm not suggesting that you try to circumvent the sales fees at all. The agent most likely has an "exclusive" agreement to sell the house and is entitled to their sales fees in most cases. Grandma intends to pay them out of the proceeds of her sale. You offer should acknowledge those responsibilities and expressly agree to honor them. That effectively removes that objection.The assumption here is that the deal, as offered by the realtor, is a good deal, one good enough to put under contract, as offered. The danger of not working with a buyers agent is that the selling agent might scoop the deal out from under you. You already experienced that and I'm trying to give you one option that "might" work if you are worried about losing the deal. I've lost a few deals so I understand the game from that point of view. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I understood your point clearly, but mine was that in a case where everyone is acting honorably, that on-the-side contract with Granny wouldn't be necessary. I wasn't trying to deal anyone out of a sales fee at all; i'd have happily called a number on a realtor's sign if he'd put one out, but then he'd have been a better kind of realtor. Naive? Maybe...but i think of it as checking for fleas before choosing a dog to lie down with.
Looks to me that you did everything right, other than the size of your offer. Unfortunate you didn't get an opportunity to raise it, but sometimes life works that way.
Our land here was similar, but the listing had long-since expired when I contacted the owner. Unlisted phone, had to go knock on his door. Paid more than market value, worth it to me. My initial offer was full-price, less the commission. Obviously well-received.
I've bought and sold with and without agents. Doesn't make a lot of difference to me, other than the obvious. Realtors generally strike me as being lazy as everyone else. My last spec, I called the Realtor I would have listed with. His estimate didn't make sense.
Sold it 50% higher. Advertising was a sign nailed to a tree in the front yard. A friend bought it. Don't know if he bothered to look up my purchase price (public info) but if he did, my 120% short-term profit didn't bother him. We'd both done our homework relating to price.
The amazing thing was a previous buyer had the property under contract before me. Backed out of the deal. He wasn't looking at it correctly. House was a POS, not worth rehabbing. It was a FSBO, with a nice building site for a new house if you looked. I pulled a demo permit but sold it before I did anything.
Still looking for another one like that. Possibility with one just 2 doors down from it, different friend's mother's house. Price isn't quite right... yet.
Doing the homework is the most important thing. Can't imagine accepting an agent's opinion without proof (comps). PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I completely depend on your principle that there's a great deal to be said for seeing possibilities where others don't. For years people would tell me: "Yeah, i looked at that house and passed on it...just too far gone." They'd have had to hire contractors to work on it, whereas i put the money into tools and teaching myself, a one-time investment compared to paying by the hour. The last house i bought needed to be moved, so i got it for a song and put it on property i'd gotten essentially for free, carving it off another piece i owned before selling the residence. Since there are very few things i'd rather do than massage a house back to life, this is almost an unwholesomely fun way to make a living. Seeing one's 1500 sf house trundle down the highway and turn in at the mailbox is such a hoot...
RE was red-hot in Western MT until this Spring, but a lot of ranchers kept subdividing such that there are lots of lots for sale now for few buyers. I'm thinking that when the owners start getting the tax bills for land at residential rates instead of agricultural, it might be time to find the acreage where i can build a place from scratch. With your industrial design aesthetic, you might appreciate my urge to live in a Quonset hut with glass end walls and movable partitions and 'floors'.
RE was red-hot in Western MT until this Spring
When the market goes south you probably don't want to be selling 1) a condo, 2) a townhome, 3) unimproved land.
I like unimproved land. Much prefer earth-moving to rehabbing. The other concern is zoning here. Maybe a non-issue for you. Immediate neighbor of my spec property couldn't understand how I got a building permit for the lot. He'd been turned down, only one house allowed per small lot.
Not a problem, things are what you call them. Mr. Green, the previous occupant, had been living in what I called a "shed". No plumbing, so it wasn't much of a stretch. I went through the permitting process, including septic. Then cut in a rough driveway, ~ 300'. Very profitable. My friend who bought the property loves living there, in a house that was based on my building permit, recycled plan from what I live in.
Mostly, I want to find a property with an obvious (to me) problem to be solved. My land was a case in point. Needed a 1/2 mile driveway up what passes for a mountain in Va. Virginians don't traditionally live in such places, roadbuilders here don't get that experience. I ended up with a $20k mess (15 yrs ago) and had to get an education, and buy some heavy machinery. Sold a quarter of the property for 1.5 times my purchase price so my headaches were repaid. Left me with 2 building sites to use, 2 to sell.
That education's served me well. Not unlike your purchase of rehab tools. I got the rep as the go-to guy for difficult driveways. Dearly love selling driveway surveys.
Sounds like an excellent time to land-shop if you're ready to build. Think zero maintenance, minimal creature comfort expense. Let your house take care of you, not the other way around.
Happy hunting.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
<<I ended up with a $20k mess (15 yrs ago) and had to get an education, and buy some heavy machinery.>>That made me laugh! I remember sleeping in a polar expedition bag atop sixty sheets of drywall and foamboard in the 'new' living room trying to stay as far away from the pee'd-on floor as possible, yet close enough to the woodstove i could hear the rain dripping in around the chimney. The exterior door had boot-sized holes in it i patched with visqueen so the aroma of whatever had died in the flooded basement was conserved. I had a few of those what-have-i-DONE!??! moments, but when there's no way but through...well, 'through' it is!Now that was a weird real estate deal. The seller cashed the check, still hadn't moved out the day of closing...said he wasn't 'sure' the deal would go through. I hadn't really seen the walls or floors of the place yet bec of all his junk, but i had faith they were there somewhere. I gave him a couple more weeks to vacate and he mostly did, but was really mad at me for making him leave so suddenly. I was glad to have an agent running interference.Btw, i have this sense of having seen your PAHS house in a magazine before. Was in in FHB or dwell or _____?
I remember sleeping in a polar expedition bag atop sixty sheets of drywall...
Better you than me in that house.
Are we finished talking about Realtors? <G> Hijack!
Sometimes real estate purchases get interesting. We leased our Denver commercial building for 60 days after closing. Buyer didn't like it, but I accepted her contract contingent on her selling her house. When you have no control over the process, when do you shut down your businesses? For me, at closing with money in hand.
Then I had 2 months to wrap things up, which of course took 4 1/2. While we suffered in a short-term rental. Knew I'd be unemployed for some time and tried to jam in a lot of work, then had a problem with a GC and ...
When you don't know what you're doing, sometimes you make mistakes. Occasionally costly ones. That's why I'm real happy to sell driveway surveys: make a bunch of money and save the client our major headache/expense. Our original driveway almost cost me my marriage. And the "roadbuilder" was highly recommended! Unfortunately, not competent, though we're again friends. That was very major money to us.
Probably just BT you keep seeing some pix. No magazine exposure that I'm aware of, though there have been feelers. Guy with a large solar site found that web page, picked up the photo and link for his site.
The web page was put up by a guy promoting passive heating/cooling dialogue. Not overly active, but I've done some consulting from contacts there. Talking with a guy in Tulsa now. Another in San Jose who wants thin shell. Turn down a few construction requests/year.
Not intended to be a house, but my future furniture shop (my vocation). DW thought I was nuts. Temporary... OK. Then after a couple of years here she wanted about the same thing in the next place (started, with several additional features). I made the basic mistake of making this place a little too comfortable, easier to get side-tracked. Not bad for a first try, zero experience.
One advantage to my place, with commercial construction, is appraisals. Worked out amazingly well on a client house (50% above construction cost, ignored the energy features).
BTW, used that original crappy driveway to work a minor miracle with the tax assessor. Took 12 years of large appreciation to get back to the original assessment he tried to run past me. Big tax savings sometimes when you bother to read the rules. Original assessment dropped 60% when I protested. Sq ft costs don't make an assessment here. Also discovered them doing "funny" things with land assessment, which they don't do with me.
Ain't life interesting? PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The problems you wrote about are why i've preferred to only take on what i can do myself or hire people i know well. I didn't know what i was doing before i started, but i replaced all the copper piping and the boiler in my galpal's house last Spring bec the licensed 'pro' had put in the wrong controls for the wrong number of zones for a combined DHW and RFH system using an on-demand heater expressly not warranted for that app. He charged her $20K for that and an unnecessary radon mitigation system. I paid the company who repaired the Rinnai unit to look over my work and calibrate the zones with their temp probes. I got a job offer. <G>Tax assessors seem to combine the sliminess of a realtor with the enforcement of the cops. Fresh out of high school, i was hired to work on a pilot project in Helena to computerize parcel info. Four of us won some sort of reverse aptitude testing and were supposed to finish assigning geocodes to parcels and coding all the property data for subsequent computer entry in 1-1/2 months. We were working out of the Classification and Appraisal Office in the Courthouse basement. We continually found appraisals based on taxing the long side of a property if the house faced that way, as supposed to the legal way of taxes based on the short side of the lot, and many other problems nearly always in favor of the tax office. The project designers, i.e. low-bidders fresh out of business school, had completely forgotten about the mineral and water rights overlays, but assigning a unique number to those ownerships inadvertently forced an inventory creating an enormous furball bec of the assessor's haphazard record-keeping and duplicate taxation.When i left 8+ months later the appraisers were talking through clenched teeth with the 21 remaining coders crammed in every available hallway and closet. The project went on for a few more months and personnel changes before it was terminated, all the data was scraped, and the state started over...with a new low-bidder, i presume.I'm going to have to go back through my old FHBs to find the house that your house reminds me of so much. Open plan, few partitions...and there was a seat near the door that was really cool...ring any bells, anyone? Your point about it resembling commercial construction and being taxed at a lower rate is one i hadn't considered at all for my Quonset idea, now made even more attractive. Fun hijack...got any more stories?
Your point about it resembling commercial construction and being taxed at a lower rate is one i hadn't considered at all for my Quonset idea
Doesn't resemble, is commercial construction. Just beefed up for the earth loads. Bear in mind that this stuff isn't used commercially 'cause it costs more. Just the opposite. The crane guy just about fell over when I told him how little that ~15 tons of steel cost.
Tax here is based on fair market value (not type of construction), what the average buyer would pay. Both the land and improvements. What you experienced was foreign language to me.
We all know the average buyer would just as soon live in a standard subdivision, not on top of a mountain up a 1/2 mile driveway. Compound that with a 30% slope driveway (originally), necessitating 4x4 even in our mild climate.
DW needs a full-sized van for her work (sales rep). AWD they don't offer and the aftermarket hardware means a ladder to get in. Anyhow, our deal was that she ascend as far as she could, lean on the horn when traction failed. No telling where I might be or how long it'd be until I showed up with a tractor to pull her up. She always stopped at the nearest restroom before hitting the bottom of our driveway. She's not a hiker, got old fast.
I lay out driveways with max 14% slope. Works better. Finishing one now to our other peak, before new zoning restrictions kick in next year. Cutting across 125% slopes. Interesting going as I can't fill much. Too steep and too near the state road. Poor form to kill anybody down there. Trees range up to 80'. Big root ball.
Your quonset sounds good- if you bury it. I contacted several corrugated steel companies when I started out. None would talk to me after I explained what I wanted. Polite rejection letters.
You build what you can. Trite, but true. I don't consider our place ideal (just comfy), a frequent BT poster once (seriously) compared it to Sphere's wreck:
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Your point about it resembling commercial construction and being taxed at a lower rate is one i hadn't considered at all for my Quonset idea"Here property is tax based on a "ideal" market value. It is not true market value as they only base it on things like sq ft, number of bedrooms, etc and they have no idea of what the building is like on the inside. And that those number combined with sales prices in the area.However, the tax value is a percentage of the market value. And that percentage changes based on the usages.There are 3 classes; residential, rental (over a certain number of units, otherwise it is residnetial), and commerical.There might be a 4th for agriculture, but I am not sure..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I've never had occasion to find out if the property tax is based on whether a building is classed by its use or its style. I plan to have a shop of course, but i could make a really nice 'office' in it. <G> I've had two thoughts about the arch building and one of them has been to buy two lightweight ones, one smaller than the other and set them up as a sandwich with foam in the middle. There is another type with a deep rib (7"+) that one could fasten both a ply skin to on the outside for a shingled roof over a thermal break - i dearly love making patterns in my shingled rooves - and a skin of DW or whatever inside. Fill the flutes with foam...you could park a D-6 on that, don't you think? I know a guy with a foam rig who said i could borrow it, so the temptation is pretty strong to figure out some way to use it, LOL.The first time i thought of a Quonset was looking through a yoga magazine and seeing a massage table set in a arched buiding. It may not have actually been a metal building bec the interior was completely smooth, but there were skylights that looked like every second 2' panel at the top of the arch was a sky light instead of metal panel. I'm not sure about the engineering on that, but plants were placed on the tops of partition walls and trailed their verdure...ah, it was a glorious look!Your place has a lot of dirt on it. Sphere's has a lot of dirt on it. Yep, i see the resemblance now you mention it. What's the Oldsmobile story? I was wondering about something i [thought] i read on your webpage, that the walls was compound curves. I can only see them bending in one plane...am i not seeing it correctly? Did you by any chance do a thread with more pix?
What's the Oldsmobile story?
With an attempt at brevity...
Has been a little discussion on my (sometimes mis-) adventures. Entertained the bright idea to use an '81 Olds (Rocket) for a cupola on my lumber shed. Hey, electric windows in the cupola! Already had the hulk, bought for the tranny. Needed to do something with it. This was before the Chinese wised up.
My sheds are somewhat different from Junkhound's. And apparently Rez's. Who never thought my shed exactly qualified as a "shed". But there are 20 or so passage doors stored in there, just a miniature version of his shed. <G>
Now, ask him...
Removed the unnecessary parts (wheels, drive-train, floorpan, bumpers, fenders) but it was still a little too heavy for my lifting rig (Caterpillar pulling on a cable, snatch block up a tree). Missed clearing the wall top by only a few inches, then the cable tower started cracking when I tried taking up more slack. But nobody got hurt. Trunk, btw, was left intact (with a hole in the bottom): roof hatch! Gotta credit the film "Thunderdome" for that part.
Good plan, wrong application. The Rocket awaits a new (shorter) building. Maybe part of a tractor shed. I'm still mulling my disappointment of not locating a tire baler near here. Which I'd strongly suggest you look into.
Got a couple buddies nearby who enjoy coming here to play. Only 1 spouse who's overly worried. Never an emergency room visit! Pix below of the lumber shed 2 story concrete foundation, 2 story post&beam atop that. Copper and translucent panel roof.
Our walls are plumb (almost) so maybe "compound" was misleading. Not an arc of a circle. I dislike circle parts, find catenaries much more interesting. Forming negative space for the front door did require some head-scratching, being a similar curve inside the curved wall. None of us had ever wall-formed before. Bear in mind that the rear wall needed the same curve for the bar joists to work.
Quite certain I'll never again build a heated above-grade building. In fact, don't understand why you would want to. Build something you need to heat? Couldn't you do shingle designs on the walls to exercise your artistic muse? Regarding loading, I'm at 300 psf total load, and rising. That's what the corrugated steel people didn't want to discuss.
Skylight: take a perfectly good roof and cut a hole in it.
Did that once. The view was a perfectly framed utility pole... later discovered which way you didn't want to point them to avoid cooking inside, necessitating a solid shutter. Fortunately I was the tenant.
I digress, as usual.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 11/30/2007 10:04 am ET by VaTom
Well, that came close to being a double homicide. I started laughing at "then the cable tower started cracking..." with a tater tot half-way down and tripped over the poor dog on the way to the kitchen for a glass of water. Underground...well, it's attractive and it isn't. I'm awfully impressed with the comfort level of a house of some friends. They did an Earthshelter job and it performs superbly, but i understand construction was incredibly labor-intensive. At 50+, i'm not up for operating a whacker all day.They use a Biolet, with all greywater recycled to the planters built on the south wall inside the house, the most brilliant part of the whole deal IMO. Certainly it's not gloomy on the south side of the house, so i suppose one gets used to moving to the cozy spot with the seasons. It's also completely off the grid except for pumping water to the orchard David works for income. I have a neighbor down the road with 60K tires left by a previous owner with grandiose ideas...i'll bet i could get them cheap. <G>I just read about tire balers, inc. one (Encore) that hauls behind a truck. An option? I haven't a clue, but it seems that the cost between having bales shipped and concrete delivered might be comparable, since you have machinery to deal with moving them. Concrete runs $90/yard here. I saved a lot by making a PT wood basement to hold up the house i moved. Insulating with the earth is smart, but you have to put more money into supporting all that weight, and you have to use heavy equipment. My thought with the arches is that the money goes into foam, as well as thinking i could pull it off myself instead of hiring or buying equipment. I've never seen a arch collapsed, either so i'm wondering why they wouldn't sell you one. Seems like a waiver would have covered their liability. We had an enormous snow year in '97, where many metal buildings were crushed (including my new metal shed with MY door collection <G>) but not arches, which made me take notice.Attachments are the Bassler earthshelter...i think it's on the Net somewhere, too. They also have an Earthgreenhouse that makes tomatoes in January using no additional heat...simply amazing in MT.
Ya gotta remember that visiting BT can be hazardous to your health. LOL ... Or in my case, safer than some of the things I've tried.
That was some heavy hickory and oak that I shredded. Good firewood, and managed to hold together long enough to set that land yacht back on the ground. Apparently a little heavier than I'd expected.
Traditional tire houses are incredibly labor intensive. 2 around here. I dug up 1 that had major problems. Got a call on the other and declined. Pretty sure a Dave Mathews Band guy bought it so at least there was ample cash for fixing. Both products from a doofus pair who came here full of ideas.
Pay them substantial consulting fees and they'd explain how you could get a great house built for $30/sq ft, turnkey (no owner labor). Unbelievably, one poor sap (U. professor) took the bait. His place finally came in about 10x conventional rate.
GC (brought in to fix things) and I became great friends, wants a PAHS resembling Frank Gehry's Santa Monica place. If his life ever gets back to some semblance of order.
I spoke with the Encore guy (who didn't have a portable at the time), tried hard to get me to buy a baler. Which I might have done if there were fewer projects already on my plate and we didn't have zoning issues. Very tight zoning here, which I generally support.
Take a peek at what Mikey's (former pounder) been doing: http://www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirebales.htm
But you're correct, lots of ways to make a comfortable house, including super-insulation. Just make sure everything else matches up (do your heat loss calcs). Windows are a big problem, as is ventilation. Our place isn't particularly efficient (lots of energy coming and going), just cheap to run. Like your friends'.
BTW, our dirt's not insulation but heat storage. Not particularly good at either one, just cheap. Does require machinery for efficiency.
Nice looking place your friends have, but if labor's included, probably at least 3x my cost. My client house here, including all labor, appraised 50% higher than construction cost. That's comparing it to conventional residential construction. That success wasn't entirely due to the shell.
As you note, concrete's not particularly inexpensive. The steel roof structure was.
PT foundations enjoyed brief popularity here. Took a large hit reselling.
I'm always interested in something better, whatever. San Jose guy wants to do earth-formed thinshell PAHS. Sounds great to me if he can work out the details. I'd probably go drive a tractor for him. Bertha makes fast work of that sort of thing, or stacking tire bales. Surprisingly cheap. My hat, ear muffs on the rock:
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 12/1/2007 9:07 am ET by VaTom
I keep wondering what i'm missing in tire bale building, but it looks like only one of the houses from that link is on track to being finished, the one owned by the two engineers who used a lot of conventional construction once the exterior tire bales were placed. One had been four years getting to the pre-bond beam stage and the other got stalled for money, it looks, while they live in a trailer house. Um...not that DIY-friendly, is it?
One of the things i thought of yesterday when i was looking at the baling process is that the cables are steel, and apparently not stainless. I thought of all the energy in that compressed rubber and steel belts with the cables in ground contact and liable to rust; then i read that cables were breaking just from being handled. The commentator said if they broke in place it would make no difference, but that's counter-intuitive to my thoughts, even if the bond beam (for a different house) took 21 yards of concrete. Since you're a proponent, i'm wondering if you've considered this and if you think this is a weak link (har har) in the system. In any case, Mikey seems like he'd be an extremely interesting person to know!
I'm still trying to figure out what could go so wrong with an Earthship...seems like an extrememly simple/low-tech concept, which is a kind of beauty i can appreciate with my DIY addiction. I built a couple of rammed earth/tire retaining walls after watching Dennis Weaver's video years ago and his exhortations re the 3 R's (reduce, reuse, and recycle), despite his casual mention that he and his wife were sharing 6000 sf of Earthship. Although Weaver (RIP) even looked like he might be a enviro-prophet, i didn't see that level of consumption as 'green' with the sole exception of reducing tire piles. Personally, i'd rather the tires went into building better roads, but the asphalt paving industry is (used to be, anyway) pretty resistant to adopting a technology that might derail their gravy train.
Along similar lines, i recall a house featured somewhere using cardboard bales for insulation/mass, a conceptual cross between tire bales and straw bales, it would seem. One might say that combines all the rot issues of an organic material and all the unwieldiness issues of tire bales. Cheap though, and the cats appreciate the window seating. <G>
Yep, i understood about the PT resale reservations going in, but i always like to do something i haven't done before. With a house that traveled 35 miles to get here -talk about recycling <G> - i had some leeway on fitting basement to structure, too, and got to build it without a house sitting over my head. I was in on a foundation pour for another house this mover brought onto a nearby property, a house not as well built as mine. The walls were a bit drunk, so the forms had to be plumbed from the walls instead of being liined...something of a hassle. We also had to pull the concrete by hand bec the house was cribbed too low, leaving it too close to the top of the crawl forms to wiggle the chute in...nothing like being up to your armpit in concrete in the middle of a snowstorm in January to make you think there might be a better way to do something.
Nothing like a totally OT thread within another one. Particularly with such a narrow interest. Might be time to spare everybody (else).
Watch your mailbox.
Is it just me, or does the "Post" button not work this AM? "Preview" -> "Post" works.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hey, you gave me permission! <G>No idea what's wrong with your Post button. I solve such issues by not getting up in the AM.
Gets dark at 4:30 here with this idiotic time change. Wouldn't leave time to get much done, rising at noon.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It's hard to get motivated to do anything outdoors when it's 9 degrees and the wind is howling. Besides, i was having my second dream of a pack of Dobermans going after a blue merle Australian shepherd. I ran out of the house and knelt down to see if i could help the left-for-dead shepherd who then morphed into a grateful Billy Bob Thornton in a sleeveless T-shirt and suspenders. I'm such a pushover for an accent.The funny thing is, the first time i had the dream, it was a vinyl-clad house. This morning i looked back and it was a dome. If i'm leaving a tire-bale house the next time, i'll know i'm spending waaaaaay too much time on BT. If Billy Bob's suspenders are holding up over-sized tool pouches...
Billy Bob, the heart-throb eh?
OK, but 9º and a strong wind in early Dec... scratch Montana off the prospect list if we get taxed outta here. I was raised on the Sonoran Desert, well-remember my first snow experience (in the mountains). An iced over puddle was pretty exciting.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It started raining, hard, about midnight and hasn't let up yet. I'm thinking the Canada geese have it right. If the ground thaws...that'll be ugly.Much as i like the freedom from interference here and most of the seasons, i've gotta get a different plan for Dec-Feb.
You ought to give consideration to building an 18ft diameter hubless panel dome.
Basic skeleton is made from 75 4ft sticks with identical compound angles on each end making up the 10 hexpanels
and 30 4ft sticks with their identical compound angles for the 6 pents. Interior supports at your discretion. A jig makes it fast and easy.
osb's at $6 a sheet.
be c'mon now, don't be a square
DH1 gave me Small is Beautiful back in the 70s and we toured quite a few domes when we lived in CA, considering building one. It's user-friendly in one way, but sloppiness in execution is not as tolerable as in a 'square' house, it seems to me, so we saw some good, some bad, and some ugly.
I just spent a couple hours on dome sites, though...darn fun and it excites my yearning for curves. I would adore having a dome greenhouse, but i'm being cheap and going with a 16x50 hoophouse this spring. Electrical conduit is cheaper than PVC and comes with a belled end...yay! The whole things gonna be about $200, not including the raised beds. The leetle one (12x20) i built four years back was still making chard a couple weeks ago.
Nice...
View Image
What's the story on the pic?
be grooving with a pict
Edited 12/5/2007 12:11 am ET by rez
I just pulled that off one of the dome sites i was looking at.Here's my hoophouse, soon to be hoopier:
So you're going to use metal conduit. How are you going to bed them to a curve? Large storage tank nearby and a torch?
What diameter?
be questioning
Edited 12/5/2007 6:02 pm ET by rez
No, i'm using the plastic conduit. I'll either go with 1" at 3' centers or 3/4" at 2' centers....not sure yet. Cattle panels make a really nice support and a trellis to boot, but they're only 16' long and now cost $48 ea...used to be a lot cheaper. Since the 6 mil plastic comes 20' wide, it fits two lengths of 10' PVC conduit better and gives me room inside for another raised bed.
I can't wait for April!
You putting it on a little riser wall for the bedding?
I'll fasten the lengths of conduit to the edges of the outside beds, yes. The conduit will fit down over smaller OD bar of conduit. I used 2' lengths of PVC pipe last time inside the 1" PVC and it's worked OK, but i've heard of cases where a big wind snapped the plastic stakes off. The working plan is to bore some 2x2s to fit over the conduit and screwed alongside the beds for spacing and additionally fixing of the conduit as well as pinch the plastic between the bed and the 2x2. I have a hassle pulling and pleating the plastic on the ends of the one i have now, so i'll build solid ends on the new one with some cast-off storm doors with both glass and screen.Did i mention i've got ants in my pants about Spring? LOL...
Do you angle a piece of flat bar across a number of the ribs for movement support?
be more friggin' questions!
On the last one, i divided the arc in 3 parts with (2) 2x2s on the inside of the arc, using metal pipe clamps to fix the PVC to the wood. It didn't work well in that the clamo metal was too soft, meaning it didn't provide much rigidity and the screws pulled through the screwholes. I repaired it drilling through the PVC into the 2x2 with piffen screws. Clamps add up to $$, too, bec so many are needed. Some people use a whole ton of + and T fittings with more PVC, putting horizontal braces in plane with the ribs, but that get's unreasonably spendy, esp for 1" fittings...3/4" not so much. My present idea is drilling more 2x2s just like the bottom clamp. I'll have the drill press set up with jig to space the holes accurately, so...economy of scale. It will look nicer than a lot of hardware, too. The only drawback to using 2x2s inside the hoophouse is that they really like to warp in that climate.Oh, and i'm spray-painting the ribs in the colors of the rainbow this time. <G>
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be Judy
I was meaning a single flat bar length screwed into the ribs from the inside at a slight angle over a number of the consecutive ribs so the ribs can't domino in some mean winds.
be Judy knew about mean winds
Edited 12/5/2007 9:46 pm ET by rez
Oh, you mean like corner bracing. The ribs are so light and so staked that it's more work for them to fall over than stay upright. I used to take the plastic off over winter to conserve it and the ribs wouldn't shift. Once the plastic's on, nothing moves. It's why i think living in arch building would be pretty care-free.
Hi Splintie,
By plastic you mean the 6 mil poly. How long does it last you, the sun eventually breaks it down?
thanks
Yes, i get the 20x100' roll of 6 mill poly at the Big Box for $80. It's important that it say it's "UV stabilized". My darlin' recovered the door with a 4 mill scrap of drop cloth and that shredded in no time at all. The plastic lasts at least three years. We have major wind where i live, so i lost the covering a year ago when i was gone on vacation and didn't remember to shut the door before i left <duh>. The plastic was ripped, but didn't seem degraded. I considered taping it back together, but ended up using it for other purposes. You can also make it removable in the off-season to last longer.
Ever considered putting a second layer on the interior with a fan blowing air between the two layers keeping them separated?
Been known to cut a fuel bill in half.
I've thought about two layers, esp since i'll have solid ends to provide better closure on the door, the weak link before. I've been trying to come up with a way to space the layers without needing another layer of supports for the next layer of plastic, but i can't. I don't heat it now, but i got two kerosun-type heaters i'm going to play with next Spring. The CO2's supposed to be good for the plants....(Hold on, here we go!! <G>) I have so much to harvest/process in the fall that i'm not sure i'd like the season to last any longer anyway. Another plan is for a solar dehydrator...
With a fan blowing between the layers the 2nd layer of plastic can go over the top of the first
being secured only at the bottoms with like a 3/4" lath type strapping and like a 6" overlap against the end walls
providing about two or three inches of air space between the layers.
Add an extra wall on one end for the chickens and yer downtown cooking with Crisco!
be a fan
Add another floor and have a fanattic.
be growing herbal remedies up there!
One advantage to my place, with commercial construction, is appraisals.
ya, you'd have to be considered commercial after you put that Oldsmobile up in the tree.
Hey, Tom says you have a shed. That true? <G>
ya, shed power to the world, but they're just sheds.
But when VaTom builds a shed, now there's a shed.
You ought to build a dome. A do-it-yerselfer with no hubs for a thousand bucks. But the realtors won't know much of what to make of it. 44541.27
be real or...?
Edited 11/30/2007 6:48 pm ET by rez
I just read the whole shed thread, in thrall with every click. I'd seen quite a few of them, but you really dug up some enchanting and obscure sources. My deepest thanks for a lovely evening. Did you get your second dome built?
Did you get your second dome built?
well, ya know...
Uh, huh. So where'd you stash those 340 passage doors that gave you knuckle-dragging arms?
Pretty sure you didn't bring 'em here. No room with the remainder of those translucent panels.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Pretty sure you didn't bring 'em here. No room with the remainder of those translucent panels.
be cool! That is good news. So whatta ya got ta have for them babies?
All right, forget ethics...
be cool! That is good news. So whatta ya got ta have for them babies?
More than they're worth, until I finish my tractor sheds. Then cheap. Got a tire baler that we can do some trading? I started out with 3000', 2 large truckloads, weigh next to nothing. R5, IIRC.
Offered some panels to a friend who helps me here. He needs a carport for his Airstream that he found out last winter wasn't protected by a flimsy aluminum/canvas canopy (trip to the factory for repairs). I saved him a nice log to cut beams from, figured we'd post&beam with translucent panels. 4' span on the panels seems real safe (originally was 8'). Not much lake-effect snow here.
So he bought a metal building instead. Sure glad I can't see his place from here.
Need 38' beams too? 6x16" or so. Trees here get tall rather than wide. Not yet milled, but you'd probably enjoy that too. Chainsaw, big one. FAS red oak.
Speaking of sheds... another buddy's planning to use a house in town to store his stuff while he and his DW take off for prolonged periods. Maybe several years. Hmmm, $240k shed? With high taxes and required maintenance. And an insurance problem if his underwriter gets wind of it.
I suggested his error and mentioned that I'd let him build a shed here if I kept it when he moved his stuff out. Much cheaper. Architectural approval required of course. I might throw in a cupola. <G>
Whetting your appetite:PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You're really exploring the boundaries of the 'self-storage' concept, aren't you? Looks like Art to me. ;^)I had the impression you lived in town. Now i'm having orchard-envy.
"Can't imagine accepting an agent's opinion without proof (comps)."I agree. You not only have to look at the comps but you have to challenge them and discuss them and sometimes drive over and look at them. You also have to inform the realtor that you have been researching the area and you have to warn them that you are going to dig and dig and dig and that basically tells them that they shouldn't try to hide something. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
"that on-the-side contract with Granny wouldn't be necessary."There is no "on the side" contract. There is only one with a clause in the terms that expressly honors the existing fee agreement. Most likely, that same agreement is in every MLS contract in every state. If grandma is squeamish, you could use the exact MLS contract that the realtor would and did use. I think I'm just trying to convey that it often makes sense to put seller's concerns in writing in the offer. You probably won't run into this situation again but if you are out there shopping, there will be many other objections and they all can be covered in the written terms. Most casual buyers aren't comfortable filling out the offersheet and think that the realtors know how to do it better. In my experience, some realtors are great at writing offers and conveying thoughts and others mess it up so horribly that no one can understand them. We normally write up a separate "conditions" sheet and add it as an exhibit on a standard MLS offer sheet. The MLS sheet gives comfort to most sellers but the real meat and potatoes is in that exhibit. Most casual buyers should probably hire a buyer's agent and skip the dual agency stuff. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Yes, "grandma is squeamish" and i don't blame her: she'd hired the dufus supposedly to avoid people like me calling her up at home. You don't accept my actions as reasonable, but if i had to badger an old lady into not calling her agent in order to get her property....nah, that ain't me.
Where do you get "You don't accept my actions as reasonable?"!!!!That is the farthest thing from the truth. I thought I was offering you some information that would be helpful to dodge the unethical realtor in the future.Sorry for sharing. Also, I take offense that you would accuse me of badgering, or suggesting that you badger anyone. Lets try to remember....I'm not the one telling the lady to fire her agent... FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I think it's common for a Seller to want to fire their realtor. Especially if he feels nothing's happening and it's the damn realtor's fault and the sign is getting rusty out there in the front yard.One of the problems we encounter as Realtors is selling a low priced homes. For example, I listed a condo for $60 K. When it sold I would receive 3% which is 1,800, however, my Broker gets 30% so that puts me down to $1,260If I run "Home for Sale" ad in the paper it will cost me $100-$150 per week. If I advertise the home for a month I take a hit. If I advertise for two months I really take a hit.I've done this before and I've lost my A$$. I've even spent additional money out of my pocket to try to help them do some repairs to try to sell the sorry piece of ####.Many realtors won't even advertise a low priced home because they're not going to waste money on a low commission property. Some of these houses may set there for months and months. The Seller eventually loses patience and starts talking about firing their realtor.
Realtors don't get fired because the house doesn't sell. They get fired because they do a poor job of servicing the client. I was trying to unload several properties in MI and my realtor lady for the condo had the listing for almost two years. She continuously kept in touch with us even though it wasn't good news. She kept us abreast of market conditions and made gentle suggestions on how we might move the property. Every time she did some advertising, she'd photo copy the ad and send it with a small note and let us know she was trying. She was so diligent that we were rooting for her. In the end, she got the sale and both sides of the commission (listing and selling). She was very low key, very professional, very experienced and I would have been a fool to shop for a different agent. I even switched my listing with here when she switched offices. A comment about your advertising comments: it's not fair to list the expenses of an ad and directly allocate it against only the house you have listed. That's a bit disengenuous because the purpose of running ads is to get your name out there and get buyers to call your phone. It's highly likely that when a real, live buyer calls your phone about any listing, if you are a competent agent, you most likely show the prospect many, many more listings. Every business has an advertising budget and real esate is no different. What's different is that agents tend to think that they have spent $150 on someone's house instead of thinking that they just spent $150 from their business advertising business account FOR THEIR BUSINESS. If you buy business cards for $100, you don't assign that expense against Mrs Jone's house and you shouldn't assign the $150 ad against her house either. I did interview my agent and asked her how she intended to market my property. I thought I wanted open houses. She explained that they weren't effective and why and I trusted her judgment. She did hold several open houses over the few years but they didn't get the place sold. Quite often, they are better for just meeting folks in the neighborhood and seeking other listings. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Sorry you took offense. We certainly had a communication problem if you think i was soliciting advice on how to 'dodge' the realtor bec that was not my intention. It's true i thought she should terminate his ####, fair and square, for cause. I'm guessing a public flogging might have been overkill.
Update: The house has gone under contract twice with investors and both deals fell through !!!The house came back on the market two days ago on Tuesday !!!My Buyer's eyes lit up and he said "let's go for it"He sharpened his pencil and will make a CASH OFFER !!!I said "let's do it" and I submitted his offer yesterday.I asked the Listing Realtor what happened with the other two deals and why did they fall through? and he responded "I can't divulge that"Any thoughts on this?What do we do if we've made a CASH OFFER and still get jerked around?
I think it may be time to talk directly to the home owner and explain the solvency and cash offer of your prospect. It doesn't seem as if the selling realtor has the seller's best interest in mind.Although it could be that he's the one jerking around.
<<What do we do if we've made a CASH OFFER and still get jerked around?>>In MT, this is where we threaten to call Lefty from Butte. <G>It's odd that the house came back on the market...that the listing agent didn't just call you guys up to negotiate some more. Something odd there...
I thought of calling someone with an Italian sounding name? just kiddingYes I thought it was odd too that he hadn't called me immediately. I think part of our situation is the Seller & his Realtor is looking at our offer differently because the Buyer is just average joe who is going to live in a house (as opposed to an investor who has experience buying and selling real estate, is less likely to back out, is less likely to make demands for repairs of minor flaws, etc)I don't know. It's 4 PM and we should have heard something by now.
I think you might be touching on the reasons why the deal fell through.Investors tend to use every technique known to man to get a lower price. On typical technique is to put the deal under contract at the best price that can be negotiated at the time. This ties up the deal for a week or two or three. During this time, the seller gets emotionally invested in the deal because of the time issue. The investor does his due dilligence and of course finds something wrong. Quite often, he knew about the problems before the offer was accepted but he witheld his objections until the time was right. The time is right anytime after the contract it signed but most investors will let the deal simmer creating some angst with the seller. A day before the deal expires, the investor starts the "real" negotiations. If he has agreed to 100k, it would not be unthinkable that he found 20 or 25k worth of things that needed fixing and he might start demanding all of it! He throws enough stuff up for negotiations and sees how it all shakes out. If the seller in invested enough in the deal and doesn't need the money, he may very well captiulate and give the buyer a very big chunk of money.If there are other offers pending, such as yours, the seller may be more inclined to walk away from the original deal rather than renegotiating it. If I was the your buyer, I'd assume that this happened and I would employ two strategies. 1)use the same technique 2) ask very specific question in addition to getting the disclosure statement clarified. I'd ask the specific questions in writing to a letter to the listing agent. If there was something discovered on the inspections the listing agent will hide behind the confidentiality agreement because you asked too general of a question. I would be inclined to start digging and asking very specific questions about the physical condition. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Good points.The seller is a bank in Calif. The house is a repo so there's no property condition report.I think you're right. Buyers #1 & #2 got it under contract, found problem, lowered their offering price, and then walked away.Now we're Buyer #3. We will find the same problems. I'm guessing mold in the crawl space.We'll do the same things and ask for a price reduction to have the mold issue resolved.AT some point the bank is going to say "uncle" and cut their losses.Whenever they're ready to say "I give" they will look at the file, see who made the best offer, and try to go back to them?Thanks for yours and everyones input.
I have no experience with repos, but i'm wondering why that means there is no property condition report...?
Here in Kansas the Seller, who has lived in the home, fills out the property condition reportThere are questions like the following:Has the roof ever leaked (yes) (no)Have you ever had pets in the home (yes) (no)Has the basement ever leaked (yes) (no)Age of roof ______ yearsAge of furnace ______ yearsAge of A/C unit ______ yearsAge of H20 heater _____ yearsHave you ever had a homeowners insurance claim? (yes) (no)If so, were the repairs completed? (yes) (no)Were there any repairs completed WITHOUT permits?Have you ever had mold?It's a 5-6 page document. If the Seller has never lived in the home they are not able to provide an accurate report.This happens with repos as well as with rental properties where the owner has not lived in the home.Interestingly, the Seller is not required to complete a property condition report, even if you're living in the home. It's optional.But everyone does because it's to your advantage to do so and disclose everything you know about the house.A Buyer is going to move into the home and find out things anyway.So if you lie about something, it's going to come back on you.If you're the Buyer, Even if you do receive a property condition report, it's Buyer Beware.The contract says it's the Buyer's responsibility to pay for a home inspection to protect their interests, even if there is a property condition report from the seller.
So pretty much it's optional, but if the Seller does fill it out, it's non-binding unless he lies, which you'd have to prove. That sure makes paying for or doing a home inspection seem absolutely necessary. Good luck on that deal today...we're all pulling for you. And thanks for not freaking out when we hijacked your thread! <G>
I like the pictures you posted of your greenhouse but it makes me jealous - I wish I was living in the country with a view like that - lol
I can do worse... <G>
We got the house under contract this afternoon at about 4 PMI've got a home inspection scheduled for TuesdayIt will cost $325If the inspection goes okay we will have a structural engineer
look at the diagonal crack in the exterior brick wall. He charges $160 for an onsite inspection and another $50 if you want a report in writing.If we find mold in the crawl space we will call a mold company.It's interesting, our home inspector said "we don't inspect for mold"I guess they don't want any responsibility. I don't blame them.I can smell mildew when I walk in the house.We'll do a Preliminary Inspection tomorrow and get down in the crawl space.Feels good to get the house under contract though.
The house went under contract on Friday.Yesterday we did a preliminary inspection. We got into the crawl space and found mold.The ground is damp. There is mold on the copper water pipes and there is a white fluffy mold on the floor joists and plywood subfloor. The white fluffy mold looks like cotton candy.The house was built in 1963The plywood subfloor appears to have gotten really wet. The plywood layers came unglued.There is a section of sheetmetal ductwork (flat trunk section of duct) which came loose and fell to the ground.I'm guessing the pipes froze prior to the last owner of the home. They bought it three years ago.The pipes must have froze, water ran and then soaked the entire floor of the house. The duct work in the floors filled with wate.some sections callapsed due to the weight.The most recent owners then must have bought the house and it appears they put a 3/4 layer of plywood OVER the damaged plywood and then installed some nice carpet.There are a lot of concerns about this house and the Buyer said "I want out - I will withdraw my offer on Monday"I said "I don't blame you"However, he slept on it and has decided to get bids on repairs and deduct the amount of his offer accordingly.I think I would tear out all carpet and plywood subfloor and start over. But it's a 3200 sq ft house and this is going to be very expensive.I would replace all the ductwork. I would replace the ductwork in the crawl space and the return air ductwork in the ceiling.Maybe even replace the furnace since it's had moldy air running through it.Something I don't understand is the roof decking has buckled in one spot. It wasn't like that three weeks ago when we first saw the house.The rafters are trusses and 24" span between them. When they put a new roof on in the past year or two they removed a old cedar wood roof and installed new plywood - presses wood decking and I think the buckled place is where two pieces are butted together and maybe they should have had a clip.We'll see what happens.
Had one happen right in my back yard. I am familiar with the place because I moved it to that location and remodeled , sold it. Two owners later this comes down, owner decides to return to Alaska hires a realtor before they leave to handle sale for them. Sellers Realtor found 2 offers , both fell though, Realtor ends up leasing the place on a lease/buy. Owners in Alaska their getting lease money., Lease ended up running 3 yrs. Realtor closed the buy last spring..... at about 60,000 less then current appraised value.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Wow, I feel sorry for the guy selling and taking a hit for $60
Maybe not all lost , I have no idea what he was paid in leae/rent monies. I am aware that the Realtor (now my neighbor) is known around here for being a slimeball though.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
97348.105 in reply to 97348.102 I've sold two houses on my own, one to the tenant and the other to a neighbor. The deal with the tenant went fabulously and the deal with the neighbor involved the services of a cop. <G> I've also purchased a house without a realtor.-You mentioned above you have sold two houses yourself. I was just wondering how you determined your sales price. When you sell a house you need to know what other houses are selling for and base your price on comparables and I was just wondering how you did that.-Same thing when you bought the house and did not have a realtor (Buyer's Agent), how did you know you were paying a fair price? Whenever I'm working with a Buyer they see a house they want they say "You're the Realtor, how much is this house worth?" They say to me "Is this a fair price they're asking?".
It doesn't take a genius to figure out your selling price, especially now that you can easily get that information and much more from public records on the web, especially now that realtors are not able to keep a cap on information that has historically given them a huge advantage over buyers and sellers.
I have a spreadsheet with the value of every house in my neighborhood. Whenever a house sells, we update our information. I know exactly what we will sell our house for if we have to leave. I have been right on five houses in a row, selling all of them for much more than the realtor suggested. I only sold one without using a realtor.
Good point - But I wonder how many people know how to access sold prices through the county website?The solds in the MLS system are a lot more detailed. For example, you can see how long it took to sell the house, price they started at vs what it finally sold for, and improvements to the home such as "new roof, new flooring, new kitchen" as those comments are included in
the remarks section of the MLS listing.When you look up a sold property in the MLS system you even get to see
the pictures of the home! Which helps a lot.But you're right - home sold prices are public records and available through the courthouse but I would guess 90% of the public wouldn't know how to find it.Agree?
I think maybe you are doing the public an injustice. I believe knowledge is slowly and inexorably growing in the public mind. Look how the public exponentially took to the internet. It existed for a number of years before explorer, netscape, and other technological marvels arrived.
As I said, I have for years kept a watch on my neighborhood property issues. I know the houses, can see when repairs are done, and know much more that any MLS data (meaninful data, that is). I don't necessarily place great value on sq ft measurements of each room.
I know from experience that information collected by realtors is notoriously incorrect. That is another subject.
I also know that if we move in a few months, I will know more about the neighborhood where we will buy than the realtors. I am not bragging here. My experience has been that realtors cannot answer the questions that are important to me when I am buying a house. Generally, I have gotten evasive answers, such as "I think the property line might be over there near that telephone pole". They tend to focus on specific things, like what school system applies, and that the neighborhood is well-established - things I can figure out pretty easily without their help.
Recently, we saw TV special about Hansen, the FBI spy who is now gracing the facilities at Supermax. They mentioned how much he made for his spying and over what period of time. We were able to guess at his approximate salary. He had six kids and a house with X bedrooms, an addition, etc, in a certain neighborhood. We wondered how he could hide the money he made. My wife got onto the internet and within ten minutes, she had all the data on the house. You can use Terra Server or Google Earth to zoom in on the neighborhood, in fact just about any neighborhood. When we sold our house in Colorado Springs, we had a panoramic tour of the house placed on the web. So even if most folks don't know how to use the web yet, it will happen.
When you sell a house you need to know what other houses are selling for and base your price on comparables and I was just wondering how you did that.
-Same thing when you bought the house and did not have a realtor (Buyer's Agent), how did you know you were paying a fair price?
The simpliest way to get good, complete information is to hire a licensed appraiser to do a comps search for you, then look at the home in question and give you her/his opinion about it's current market value. If the appraisal isn't "official", just advisory, you can get that work done quickly and inexpensively.
Having been through listing presentations with eight-ten RE agents, none of whom showed me the high end comps sales, I would NEVER trust a RE professional to do that work for me.
Of course they all thought I was a sheep waiting to be sheared. They didn't know that I had the full spectrum of recent sales already in my back pocket.
They were each trying to convince me to list the property with them and each of them knew that it was inheirited. So why didn't they know that inheirited property has to be officially appraised for income tax purposes?
What I gained from all those listing presentations is that, not only is the RE business full of unethical people, but that most of them are the kind of sheep that they hope their clients are, willing to follow any carrot which promises them a comfortable, easy solution to their current financial problems.
I'm saying that the training they received was about how to deceive their clients in order to gain control of the property and the price. So many of their tactics were aimed at that outcome that, taken as a whole, they could not be dismissed as accidental or due to incompetence.
I even listened to a listing presentation from an old friend of the family, a former next door neighbor who had since gone into RE sales. She and her partner gave us a pleasant song and dance which, after careful review, showed that she'd grown a pair of horns since her friendlier days next door.
Perhaps in less competitive markets than Los Angeles, where prices, profits and commissions are all smaller, the RE business is conducted in a more open and above board manner. I hope so but I wouldn't count on it.
""Perhaps in less competitive markets than Los Angeles, where prices, profits and commissions are all smaller, the RE business is conducted in a more open and above board manner."" Now that got a laff out of me. First house I ever bought was 10 miles out of the closest "town", town had 1,200 pop. Realtor refused to transmit my offer (about 20 % less than asking ), told me he had no obligation to pass a low offer on to the owner. Home had been on the market for 6 months , no action . I was a kid and far from family and friends who could have told me better. S.O.S. no matter how big or small the community, greed rules.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
S.O.S. no matter how big or small the community, greed rules.
<G> Ain't it the truth.
<<When you sell a house you need to know what other houses are selling for and base your price on comparables>>True, but the market takes care of that very well and one doesn't need a realtor to be observant of the market. I never think of a realtor as someone to tell me what a place is worth, but simply as a clearinghouse for information i wouldn't otherwise have access to and someone to do the paperwork.I'm not clear on the process elsewhere, but in MT you need an appraisal to take to the bank to get a loan, and anyone can hire an appraiser for $400. It's really not any different process from refinancing one's own house, right?
You're right about the appraiser. I've had a different experience as far as homeowners being knowledgeable about home prices. My experience is people are not knowledgeable about house prices. They don't know what houses sold for in the immediate area. Some say their house is worth whatever the tax appraisal is and that's not true. My house is worth about $20 K more than the tax appraisal.Here's an example about & home average joe blow and home prices. As a Realtor we list a house. We put the sign in the yard and then walk from door to door shaking hands and meeting neighbors.I walk up to a door and I introduce myself "I'm Joe Smith with ABC Realty and I just listed the Jones house. That's my sign in the yard. Here's a flyer that tells about the house. Do you know anyone who might be interested?They respond "How much is it?" and I say "it's 100,000". They say "wow that seems high" I say "did you know the house on the corner sold for $100,000" and they say "no, I didn't know that".Any I say did you know the house a block north of here sold for $100,00. They say "no - I had no idea"I rarely run into someone who is knowledgeable and up to date.
It's not too surprising that someone whose door you knock on who's not intending to sell their house might not know its value. I still getting over that most people can't pull and set the toilet they use everyday. <G>And even appraisals are more art than science. I have a friend whose property came back appraised at $380K. I was flabbergasted, but wished her luck. Not a single offer has come in since it was listed last April, though she's dropped the price $80K. It has a very large house on it in poor condition with an extraordinarily bad layout. I believe the appraiser just went on square footage without knowing houses very well at all. The folks who've come to look at it seem to have a better 'appraisal' of it than the pro did.
I rarely run into someone who is knowledgeable and up to date.
Sounds right to me. The situation changes, however, when that someone is planning on buying or selling. Then there's motivation to get educated, fast.
I'm that way. No reason to keep current if I'm not active.
Unfortunately, my latest exchanges with agents have come up dry when I asked about unimproved land pricing. None would/could venture more than a WAG, admitting they didn't have a clue. Professional? Clearly not.
Leaves me on my own. Which isn't bad, all things considered. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Another way to do comparable sales pricing, over time, is to visit every open house that comes up in the neigborhood and keep track of it's asking and selling price.
Keeping a file with personal notes about each place is an excellent way to gain confidence about the market value of one's chief asset. I consider it my responsibility to look for open houses each Sunday and do a thorough walk through of each one.
Some people, women mainly, feel mildly embarrassed about looking at their neighbors' homes when they don't intend to buy. I tell them, "if you go to the trouble of looking for discounted items in the supermarket, in order to save a buck or two a week, why won't you do the kind of information gathering which will help you save/make thousands of dollars when you sell your house?"
I like the letter of intent.
The rest looks like opportunism on the side of the person trying to sell the property for the HO. He/ She is getting paid by the HO to represent their best interest - not his own. At the point of your scenario he is nothing more than a con artist.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
It is opportunism but it also is a higher offer, I'm assuming, than the OP offered. I would have kissed the feet of my agent if they had offered to buy my places after I received an offer.Look at it from the sellers point of view. You are telling me that the seller would rather take the lower offer. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
As I said earlier and you concurred--the solution is for your agent to personally present the offer to the seller in the presence of the seller's representative. That's why the salesman is making the big bucks, hah hah.
That's because he did.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
yes but they do and the world is not a fair one
I was going to say Realtor Ethics was an oxymoron, but see you are an associate Realtor (isn't that what you are called?). I sold real estate for two summers (and was rotten at it). I was told to take the offer directly to the listing office and only open it in the seller's presence and never to leave it with the listing Realtor's office. I too had the experience of leaving an offer--they apparently read it and called everyone they knew who was interested and told them what price to beat and someone did.
It was right around Christmas, the buyers I was showing houses to were a married couple and the wife was expecting. (Felt like I was really in the Christmas tradition!)They had been staying with friends, but the furnace in the house burned up or something and so they were desparate for housing. I ended up selling them a house my Realtor had--but then they couldn't afford the down payment, so he rented it to them with an option to buy. A part of each month's rent went toward the down payment. The house cost $5000, so this tells you just how poor they were (albeit, this was in the late 70's). Of course, it not being an outright sale, I never got a dime of commission or any other compensation.
Later, just before I left the real estate business, I turned a prospect I knew was going to buy a vacant parcel over to another salesman in the office named Glen. I saw Glen later in a bar and he said he owed me a pitcher of beer, as the person bought the parcel and he did very little work to earn the 1/4 of the ten percent commission. Later a waitress brought me one draft beer and said it was from Glen. Whoopie.
real estate agents hate me and heres why. if i find a house on my own,sign in yard whatever i go to the listing agent just because what happen here.
lets get down to it when the listing agent is also selling they are getting 50% of the commision instaed of 25% so they are going to work harder.money talks period.
now if i have re find a house and tell me about it,i'm all theirs. doesn't matter if it's their listing or not i 'm going with the one that brought me to the dance,and hope it all works out.
you can call it ethics morals whatever but if i was still selling i would do whatever i could to sell my listing to my buyer and thats what happened here. no one is suppose to tell what the other party has offered but i have several times had the agent hint strongly at what it takes to buy. sometimes i bite other times i pass. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
99% don't even know how to spell the word ethics. And yes they do show offers from other buyers to the buyer they want to sell the house to.
I know from first hand. Had a friend who was a realtor. He would tell me about doing this very same thing. We would get into LONG discussions about truth and ethics. He doesn't call or stop by the shop anymore.
Where I live the pop is about 40,000 with about 400 realtors I only would trust maybe 2 of them because I grew up with them and know where they live.
Nailer
I can't disagree. But I've been hoping we would hear from someone who had sold their house, had a good experience with a realtor, and had benefited from having two Buyers bidding against each other.An example story could be as follows:"I tried to sell my house FSBO and it sat there for six months. Nothing happened. Never got an offer. So I listed it with a Realtor and in a couple of weeks we had two offers! Both sides ended up bidding against each other! I eventually sold it for above the asking price! Wow ! My realtor really did a good job! He was worth every penny!" I never would have gotten rid of that house and I would still be making payments on it today if I hadn't hired a professional ! Wow !Ya know what I'm saying?
Fixit
I had a house down in Texas and sorta sold it before moving. That sorta is a stretch though, found out the guy didn't have the money, didn't qualify for the money and was really just full of shid! Don't believe in printouts of pre-qual letters that come off the internet!
I turned the whole thing over to the same realtor that we used when we bought the place, he go the deadbeat out of my house in short order(nice little intimidation) and had the place sold within 30 days of that, and for about $22,000 more then I thought we could get for it.
I couldn't be happier with what our realtor did for us down in Texas, was well worth the 10G's that we paid him.
If anybody is looking for a good honest realtor in San Marcos, Texas I can give a good recommendation. I also know a few in Austin that are pretty good as well.
OTOH the realtor that we used here in Iowa cost me about $13,000 on the purchase price of the house because he spouted out laws that were not there! Damn guy was just making sure he got his cut and that's all he had on his mind. I hired him because the listing agent lied like a Middle Eastern dictator!
So just like any profession, there are good and there are bad. I'm just pizzed because I know better and should have done a little bit of homework.
Doug
Edited 11/22/2007 6:59 pm ET by DougU
The only way you are going to hear that is when it is a good property, priced right, and a good deal for all parties involved.
The reason that it didn't sell FSBO was because the realtors black balled it and would tell any prospective buyer that it was unlivable - until it got listed with their RE "union" - then they would swarm.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
You want good stories?
10 years ago, I had to sell because of the DW being transferred. Of five agents I interviewed, they all tried to steer my expectations down. I can understand that. But when they compare my 10 A spread to someone with 1/2 A and lesser house, they talk themselves out of the deal. One guy was my client and I felt as if I owed him a bone, so I listed with him at my price. He didn't care for my tactic, so he never advertised or showed the place in 6 months. Fortunately, the relocation company was watching and called another agent to call me. She came by to look things over, determined I had good reasons for my price, and we switched the listing. Within three months I had two offers come in the same day. (plus many more showings) Turns out both fell through, but within another month, she brought in another offer. That buyer loved the house, but his agent was one of the early ones I didn't sign up with. So's that agent (and her boss) used the earlier information to try to very aggressively beat me down. I wasn't going for their lowball offers, but I could see the wife really wanted the house. Finally, the response period for their "last offer" was approaching. My agent called up with another showing and I met the new people and their agent at the house to show them the little hidden things. They fell for the house on the spot. The guy asks, "what would it take for us to get this place?" I mentioned the other offer was on the table and if they could better it, it's theirs.
The next day, my agent called to say their offer was coming in at 5 pm. The first was to expire at 6 pm. So's we all sat around the table shooting the bull until 6:01. Then I accepted that new offer.
The first people were Pizzed! And then hassled me for the next month trying to get in another offer and wanting to know what when wrong. I simply told them their agent was obviously upset that they didn't get the listing in the first place and wanted to put me in my place for thinking I had something special.
The ultimate buyers were the perfect people for the place. They've become good friends.
And then, 5 years ago in Ca, another relocation came about. My agent then did the most incredible job of marketing a house that I've ever seen. We again had no comparables (always happens to me), but it was the most endearing beautiful home (an English County Cottage amid all of those Spanish contemporaries) in Southern Orange County.
He started by sending his secretary out to take a few shots for his ads. Well, those pics did no justice. So's I met with him and asked what could I do to help with the advertising. He was taken back, figuring they were doing what was common. So I offered to get a professional industrial photographer (one of the guys down the street from me) to do a shoot. This never happened before to them, so he says, "Go for it."
This photographer did the most incredible shots I've ever seen. I mean, he was good. The different lighting and filters he employed provided jaw dropping results. He even made me get up at 4 am once to get ready for the sunrise. Found a nice spot up on the hill behind and caught the dawn light coming over the hill and shining up Dana Point Harbor in the background.
The agent took these pics to his boss. Every Thursday, the Orange County Register runs a big insert of the homes for sale that the agencies pay up dearly to get in.
The next Thursday I saw my house in full color on the front page of this insert. Blown up to the whole page. Inside was a another four page layout of my house. And another a month later. Every quarter, this firm would produce their own full color brochure. I was on the front cover of that, and another 4 pages inside. The entire back half of the 64 page brochure had a number of other homes (10 to 15 on each page) they also had on the market. But all of these other homes were superimposed over a black and white faded out full page picture of my back yard.
Honestly, I must have had 3 to 400 people come through for showings in the three months he had the listing. Had a number of open houses where people were lined up outside the front door waiting to get in. Even had the local rose society host their home & garden tour there. I was simply overwhelmed by the response.
But no one stepped up with an offer. Everyone loved the place, but I guess the price (in early of 2002, just following the stock markets throwup) was too much for people to bear - even though we aggressively cut the price.
Finally, the relocation people said, "Enough." They changed the listing over my objections when it expired. The new agent got a binding offer two days later - from a couple that my agent had shown the house to 5 times. Even to the point of letting them "stay" in the house for several hours to get a sense of the mood.
That fantastic agent didn't get a penny for his efforts. When I offered to go over the relocation people's heads over the issue, he said, "No. Don't. I've been on the other side of such deals, so I understand. That's how things work."
Besides doing a excellent job, he had good ethics.
Those of you in S. Ca, email me if you want his name. I'd refer him in a heartbeat.
I don't know why you'd call that agent "fantastic". He had a couple in your house five times and never got them to make an offer?!!!!I had a very hard time selling the house in MI overlooking Lake Huron. I tried four different agencies. Everyone agreed that the house was the best house on the lake. There were numerous showings and no offers.The last agency finally got the job done, but only because I daily browbeat them into getting offers. I told them that I didn't care if they brought offers of only $1....I'd prefer low offers to no offers. At one point, they apologetically brought an offer that was 150k less than the asking price. I knew then that my efforts to "instruct" them were working. The buyer and I finally came to terms, inspite of the two agencies that were in between us. At one point, the buyers agent walked into my selling agents office and threatened to "release this client because he's too difficult" because the buyer wanted to talk to me directly. This was after five weeks of back and forth paperwork and offers!!!!! The buyer and I worked out the deal in a one hour telephone call. The point is that if the agents can't get the buyers to make offers, they aren't good agents and they shouldn't get a referral.This entire thread kinda makes me laugh. Buyers are whining because they don't do enough homework on their own properties. They don't interview enough agents. Sellers are whining because someone didn't sell for high enough. Then, we involve the government with reams of paper to "protect" us. Real estate is actually a simple negotiation. One only has to figure out what they want for their property and then tell the agent how much they'll take...and not a penny less. It really doesn't matter if someone else makes 100k on the deal. There is risk on any deal and if the buyer makes 100k on a house that I owned and sold him, he didn't make 100k on "MY HOUSE", he made it on "HIS HOUSE". I would have loved that my realtor had a "wholesale" buyer in his hip pocket and "stole" my place from me in one day. It took me almost three years to sell, so I know what the other side of the coin looks like. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
"It took me almost three years to sell.."
The house I mentioned first was the second one I ever owned. The first (in Clarkston, MI) took 5 years. 4 of those it sat vacant. Put it on the market in june of '81 and didn't get out until may of '86.
Bout bankrupted us. Fortunately, her mother slipped her a check for $3,000 to help us out near the end.
Michigan real estate can be tuff when the rest of the country catches a cold.
81 to 86 were some really, really bad years in Michigan! I think this one will be worse though. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I would have loved that my realtor had a "wholesale" buyer in his hip pocket and "stole" my place from me in one day. It took me almost three years to sell, so I know what the other side of the coin looks like.
So you'd be happy to pay a RE agent 5% to get you a quick sale at 15%-20% less than market value on your chief retirement assest?
The other side of the coin is that, as you've said, you had nothing but lousy sales help from RE agents. That's common all over. I've been to about fifty open house showings in this area over the last year and spoken with the listing agents in each home. None of them made any effort, verbally or in the brochures they hand out, to point out any of the local area's important features; schools (numerous private K-12), park and recreation facilities (best in the city), public transportation...like that, all significant to living and investing in RE here.
They're like bumps on a log, sitting in a home with a plate of stale cookies. Fishermen who know only one kind of bait...one way to present a property. They are so dull witted and greedy that they're worthless as salespeople.
Disclaimer: I did once meet a RE agent who helped me buy a building lot at a good price. I wouldn't call him a prince of virtue but he handled his end professionally.
I think we've had this discussion before.The irony of your position is that you seem to offer praise for the real estate agent that helped you get a "good deal". The reality of selling ANYTHING is that the seller should know what it worth OR know what they want. If they are happy with 20% under market, then so be it. They certainly have every opportunity to get multiple free market surveys. They can talk to neighbors and friends. They can talk to their laywers. They have literally dozens of places that they can choose to help them sort out their true market value. Or, they can pick any pie in the sky price and just ask for it. The reality is that very few real estate agents have a retail buyer in their pocket. Life doesn't work that way. The only way a seller is going to get a quick sale is lowering the price to under market. It's a choice that we all make. When you think about it, a 20% discount on property isn't really that exciting. The risk of getting caught with it in a market heading south is ALWAYS THERE. A wholesale buyer looks for property in the 60% range and will settle for 70%. At 80%, they are needlessly risking a lot, given the holding costs and selling costs and of course...good old Uncle Sam. So, to answer your question: yes, I'll gladly listen to an offer of 80% and know that the agent will be getting 5% for a buyer they have in their hip pocket. If they are meeting my "bottom line", I'll sell. I wouldn't care either way if the agent explained that they had this buyer in their pocket or not. It really doesn't matter to me. Come to think about it....we're going to be aiming our next project at about 15% under market. Somtimes, its just good business.
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
The irony of your position is that you seem to offer praise for the real estate agent that helped you get a "good deal".
I made that disclaimer to indicate that I'm not blindly attacking the RE business, just the agents who follow unethical practices. The one I mentioned simply advised me how much to offer, then expedited the paperwork with the listing agent. I'm pretty certain that I bought the lot at a fair price, based on my own research.
I agree that it's each person's responsibility to become knowledgeable about anything of value that they want to sell, it's market value in particular.
But the problem with many RE transactions is that they're a one time occurance in the life of person who truly believes that they're hiring a RE agent who will represent their interests. They believe this because that's the way the listing agent presents him/herself and because it's logical.
They're shown recent sale prices on certain comparable homes in the area with color photos and lots of data to support the price their RE agent wants them to use. What they don't know and have no reason to suspect is that their RE agent is withholding the comps which sold at the highest prices, so as to seduce them into making the property easier to sell quickly.
It's a sham which shouldn't exist but because the RE business carefully pretends to be highly ethical and self regulating these minor crimes with major financial consequences continue.
When you think about it, a 20% discount on property isn't really that exciting.
I disagree. That 20% plus the 5% commission is on 100% of the sale price, not just the profit. In many cases it takes an entire adult lifetime of living in a home, paying off a substantial mortgage, before the market value rises enough to make any profit at all. Twenty-five percent of the total sale price might well represent all or most of that profit. In any case it's one of the great illusions in RE sales, that the RE agent is getting a small cut.
Five percent of the total sale price, when the actual profit is twenty percent, means that the RE agent just took twenty-five percent of the profit, and for what? Doing little or nothing to earn any part of the profit? Misleading the seller?
Maybe the answer is to pay the seller's agent a larger percentage but only on the actual profit. Yes, let's get them more invested in making a real profit on the sale. How about that?
I won't argue that there aren't any unethical agents in the game, but I'm not going to accept your 80% of FMV as proof. The reality is that paying cash (or new mortgage) and buying property at 80% of FMV, is a tough way to go and not every agent has one of these in their hip pocket. Every real estate investor makes up their own minds how they do business and paying cash at 80% is just too risky. Often, if they are intending to landlord it, they wouldn't get enough rent to cover the new mortgage!Your idea of paying agents a portion of the "profits" doesn't sound workable. Actually, in a personal residence, there is never a profit. There is appreciation and the oldest would pay the most which seems to victimize the elderly...which you seem to be most concerned with and rightly so.I had several family members that sold their house in one day and were tickled pink. They bragged about having the phone ringing off the hook even though they had already inked the contract. To them, it was more important that they sold it fast with less headaches and angst, rather than getting fair market value and waiting a few weeks and going through the negotiations. We all trade our money for less pain. They got less money than the market would bear but they didn't have any pain in the process. Its a choice and every choice has a price.If you want to cite better example of unethical behavior, lets talk about the MLS boards. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
If you want to cite better example of unethical behavior, lets talk about the MLS boards.
I'd appreciate any insights you'd care to share. My experience is strictly on a personal level, dealing with RE sales people and their tactics. I know very little about the inner workings of the RE business.
The reality is that very few real estate agents have a retail buyer in their pocket. Life doesn't work that way. The only way a seller is going to get a quick sale is lowering the price to under market. It's a choice that we all make.
It's a choice I, as a Realtor, made on my own home sale this past spring.
Knowing that things were getting ugly in the RE market, and being in mid-build of a new home, I really didn't want to get stuck paying two mortgages. My broker was kind enough to not charge me for selling my home (many wouldn't do that); that allowed me to price my home approximately 5% under then-current market. Sold it in 9 days, to a cash buyer.
Jason
Yes I do! That's why I use the two that I grew up with. We been thruogh baptisms of fire together and trust each other with are lives and families.
That's as in DougU post you need to do your home work.
nailer
How about this scenario?
You have a house you want to sell for $100,000.
7% commission split 4 ways gives $1,750 to each realtor and broker.
Your agent knows if he/she can get you to sell for $90,000 the commission will be $1,575.
The first case might take three months to sell the house and the realtor might have to show the house 20 times and maybe spend a half a day there for an open house, as well as run an expensive ad in the newspaper.
At $90K, the house might be sold in a week with two showings, no ad, and just the cost of the listing.
The realtor saves a lot of effort, time, and money for a reduction of only $175 in commission. The seller loses $10K.
And I used to wonder why my realtors always tried to get me to lower my asking price!
I can't argue with that.One way to alleviate what you're talking about is to let the Seller establish the sales price of the home.The realtor does the research and finds 9-10 comparables and then sets down with the seller and shows him the range of prices and the various homes and what they actually sold for and then allows the Seller to set the price.Sometimes the trick is getting the Seller to be honest about his house and it's flaws. If the Realtor is comfortable with the Seller's price they can move forward. If not, he can walk away.
Hey,
Read a great article recently which concluded that realtors kept their own homes on the market for twice as long as clients' homes, higher price dontcha know!
skipj
I read the same article. Didn't surprise me, especially since I have known cases where realtors did just that. Of course, if you can afford to hold on to the home for a while, it makes sense.
In the example I gave where the seller loses $10K, I would have advised him to hold out a bit. If the mortgage payment was $1K, for instance, holding on for ten months would have been reasonable.
But I think most people are not in a position to do that.
I am facing a similar situation, and plan to hang in there. I was planning to do a whole house renovation including an addition over a period of five years. Two years into it, I may have to sell if my wife gets the new job she wants. I want to go back to Colorado, as well as support my wife's goals. So I will have to finish up what I started and sell in a poor market.
If she has to show up in Jan or Feb, I will stay here to finish the work and sell the home. I'm digging in for the long haul. Paying for two residences for a few months will be tricky.
That would make sense. Agents would tend to believe that they are good and could get top prices. They also know what the top price are, so they would most likely list at, or above, that range figuring that they could sell it because of their skill.
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
mrfixitusa wrote:
"Ten days ago I showed a Buyer a house on Sunday. He fell in love with the house and wanted to buy it and we made a formal offer the next day.
The house was a bank repo that had been on the market for only a couple of days.
So in this transaction I am considered to be the "Selling Agent".
Three days later the "Listing Agent" called me and indicated there were two offers on the house and, per standard procedure, both Buyers are then encouraged to make their "highest and best offer"."
Please help me understand this, and I apologize for what seems to be a dumb question:
Why isn't mrfixitusa considered the buyer's agent?
Truth told, every agent, whether working for the listing broker or the so called "buying" broker, are really working for the seller and not the buyer. That's what I was told and I think I have read that somewhere recently--all Realtors represent the seller. I guess it makes sense--the seller provides the product that has real worth. The buyer is just one of many who may eventually buy the product, but the important thing is the product.
One story I have is when I moved to a new city, I decided I should buy a house (in my opinion, a really bad idea--I would never buy a house until I lived in a city at least a year, because it takes about that long to know the good and bad locations in a city). The salesman I worked with showed me good stuff in bad locations, or really bad stuff in good locations, since I had little money. I remember a lovely older house, well maintained and having real plaster walls and hardwood floors, but the guy across the street had a yard full of cars on blocks and motorcycles in various stages of repair.
Anyway, the agent was showing me through a nondescript house in a nondescript neighborhood and as we got ready to leave I noticed a huge, like 3 feet wide by 6 feet tall painting on the wall by the front door. It was probably behind the door as we opened it to enter the house, so I hadn't noticed it before. So I looked behind this huge painting on a small wall and found a huge hole, which I showed to the salesman. He was shocked and said that was the first time he'd seen that. He was visibly upset--maybe he was being truthful or maybe he was chagrinned at me catching it!
Oh, on a similar note, I bought a house that had furniture in it when I viewed the house. When I went to move in, I found out that all the furniture had been artfully placed over holes in the carpet! The fireplace was not to code and its chimney leaked in rain and the fireplace didn't draft properly. The previous owner had built a brick wall behind it and that's why my insurance guy let it go that the fireplace was too close to the wall (but I later found that the heavy wall was caving the floor into the crawl space). I'd had the roof looked at and the guy said it was fine, but later I had to replace it--it was all bubbled and patched (flat roof). Later found hidden junction boxes and splices not in junction boxes. Plumbing leaked at times. After lots of work, I did sell that house (for about what I payed for it--still, better than rent and I got to learn a lot about construction!). It was a good location in a small town (Fruitport, MI) with lakes and springs and creeks all around.
Danno wrote:
"Truth told, every agent, whether working for the listing broker or the so called "buying" broker, are really working for the seller and not the buyer. That's what I was told and I think I have read that somewhere recently--all Realtors represent the seller. I guess it makes sense--the seller provides the product that has real worth. The buyer is just one of many who may eventually buy the product, but the important thing is the product."Sorry, I missed this. Thanks for the additional information. I think I understand your point. Most buyers I know, though, seem to think (hope?) that their agent will look after their interests to a certain degree. And since you're not directly paying the agent, it'd be foolish not to retain one. The trick I guess is finding one with integrity.
Sorry for the confusion. These terms get confusing:Listing AgentSellers AgentBuyers AgentSelling AgentBrokerDual AgentI am the Buyers Agent and am working with the guy wanting to buy the house. Here in Kansas I am also called the Selling Agent. The other realtor is the Listing Agent as he is the Realtor who listed the house. He is working with the Seller and trying to get his home sold quickly and for the highest price. His loyalty is to the Seller and my loyalty is to my Buyer.
Thanks for the clarification, mrfixitusa. I know very little about this stuff so this thread is very interesting.In my area (SF East Bay Area) some people in the middle- and low-end segment are going with Help-U-Sell type agencies for a flat fee (around $4k-$7k I believe). I've heard mixed results but it's too anecdotal to draw any conclusions.
"The other realtor is the Listing Agent as he is the Realtor who listed the house. He is working with the Seller and trying to get his home sold quickly and for the highest price. His loyalty is to the Seller and my loyalty is to my Buyer. "
I have a bit of a hard time understanding how your loyality can be 100% to the buyer when you are paid by the seller of the house. Seems like a clear conflict.
This is like saying the car salesman has some sort of loyalty towards the buyer they are helping.
This is like saying the car salesman has some sort of loyalty towards the buyer they are helping.
Oh, they do! And speaking of selling, I just happen to own the Brooklyn Bridge--I'll sell it to you cheap, since it's coming up on Christmas and I am just filled with the spirit of the season! (And some plum pudding)
I easily can see why the buyer is the most important. He's the guy that brings the money to the show!The buyer is the most important element in any deal. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Yea, yer right, but nuttin ever happens unless ya got BOTH a buyer and seller.
I think yer just happy to be shed of yer MI lake prop. I have been in yer shoes before.
I'm tickled to sell anything in MI! I see it losing another 20% in the next two years. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
You forgot Secret Agent
Realtor Ethics = Oxymoron
For good new rock music, click on: http://www.wolfmother.com
realtor ethics.....isn't that a contradiction of terms
I guess it's all in your perspective. If I had been fooled into a subprime scam like many thousands of others and had to lose my house, I would naturally be mad at the realtor and the mortgage company and anyone else who should have known better, or did know better and let their greed carry the day. I would also be mad at the entire industry. I would also think just as badly about the realtor that swoops in and gets to make a nice commission on my foreclosed house (that would be you in this case), as well as the buyer.
You are playing in a dirty game and the profits are high. I'm just amazed to see that you feel you and your customer have been wronged. But then, we are only partially rational beings and I am certainly as inconsistent and illogical as the next guy.
It's an interesting business and the emotions run the extreme from the happiness of selling your house for a nice profit clear to the other end extreme and the other end of the spectrum and anger and sadness which goes with losing your home or not selling the home for the price you think you deserve.Lots of ups and downs and you get kicked in the teeth and learn from your mistakes. What can I say?
I have been in that situation as a buyer, the one who was successful. I had to up my original offer to get the property.
This occurred, I am sure, because I was unable to make the offer with a deadline for acceptance, as I was able to do in all the many previous deals I had ever done.
If I am a buyer making an offer on a property, I want to be able to hold the seller to a "deal or no deal" deadline of just a few hours. This was always possible for me before the age of cellphones and email, and there is no reason for it not to be possible today.
In my recent case, my offer was made in a relatively new area for me (state of NY) where stupid real estate people and lawyers screw everything up, IMHO. My agent would not do a timed offer.
With a short term offer window, it is less likely there can be a competing offer.
Gene that's excellent advice. In Kansas the real estate contract we use
does not have a place where you fill in a blank to state your deadline for response from seller.Instead, we have to write that in the narrative section of the contract if we're going to set a deadline.In Colorado their contract is different and has a place to fill in the blank for the deadline for response from Seller.It's a good tactic to use and that way you can get your response and move on if that decline your offer.Although I should mention with a bank foreclosures you can demand a response in 24 hours and banks just ignore you. They don't seem to care if they sell the house or not. Thats the way it is around here anyway.
Always remember that you represent the seller...he pays your fee...its in the listing contract. To represent the buyer would be unethical. Representing the buyer and treating him fairly are two different things.
You can always call the buyer and make him an offer to purchase the house. Offer him a 10k profit for his troubles. Its not pleasant but your buyer may get the house. In this case, you would sign a contract with the buyer stating he would pay you a fee to make the offer (you would then be representing him).
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Interesting - I'll pass that along.Thanks
This is off subject .
There was an agent that really pizzed me off and did far worse that whats been mentioned here .
Takes a long time to get over it when you get a shaft thats not been greased.
The best idea I got when I was plotting was to call one of his listings per week. I could find that from the ads. Call Tony@....... I search the adress and look up the owners. I call them and say Id be interrested if you didnt have that agent . When you get rid of him and learn his tatics , give me a call. 52 clients per year.
Thad keep him busy. I dont work for the public so it wouldnt effect me and many people that buy houses dont either .
Tim
I saw a guy get mad and file a lawsuit against a realtor. It drug on for a year or so and the guy eventually got tired of it and dropped it but the realtor had to pay legal fees so he (the realtor) took a pretty good hit.Tim, a lot of business dealings result in anger, hard feelings, and emotions.I get angry if I have a house for sale for a fair price and someone
makes a low ball offer which is insulting. My blood pressure goes up and it bothers me. I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it.I get angry when I have open houses and people walk through and
turn their noses up and act like "this isn't up to my standards"I get angry with negotiations and the "give and take".I sold a house about three years ago and the Buyers nickeled and dimed me asking for a lot. It was frustrating. They demanded this and that and then few days later they wanted something else. We got a week or so away from closing and the other realtor called and the only way we were going to be able to close was if I would pay their rent which was $500 or $600. I needed the money from the sale of the house and it bothered me but I agreed to pay their rent. I wrote them a check for their rent at the closing This was after the deal was completed and the house was officially sold and I had the money in my hand.The day of closing I called the other realtor and I refused to go into the closing room with them. I said I wanted it done separately.It was childish of me to do it that way.I can laugh about it now and try to not let things bother me as much.
what get me is, a house is worth 100k, and they try to sell. so in order to pay the realtor fee they raise to 115k, the house is still worth 100k. Then in order to have arguement room they raise to 125k in hoping that after the bills are paid they walk away with 100k. but then some stupid fool comes and says, yes we pay 125 know more power to him and glad he got the money but.everybody that lives around the house and did not plan on moving, their property tax goes up $200 more a year. then the guy up the road say, if he can get $125k I can get $135ki,m kinda happy that the bottom fell out, maybe property tax will stabilze
everybody that lives around the house and did not plan on moving, their property tax goes up $200 more a year.
Could be worse.
Second property from us is being developed. Lots start at $450k. We're looking at doubling our assessment. Then, without agricultural land use taxation we'd be planting a FOR SALE sign, facing a $20k tax bill. And our elected representative believes that agricultural tax is wrong.
Then, move over SG. Appears you're in Michigan now bb, not much chance of us heading there. Any place you haven't lived? PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
MrFix
I read your comments about what gets to you(emotionally). I have a situation that when it happened I was ready to kill(figuratively speaking :) ) the realtor, my BIL and I found a house in a really well established neighborhood, good piece of property, but the lady that had lived there left the place in pretty bad shape. USED tampax in the medicine cabinet, dog shid 6" deep in some rooms.........basement that you couldn't get to because it was so full of junk. I think the woman went through some mental(understatement) problems when she and her husband got divorced!
My BIL and I contacted the realtor and made an offer of $12,000 on the place, realtor contacted the seller in Texas(we're in Iowa) and seller accepted our offer. Now fast forward two days and the realtor calls us and says that the he got another offer on the house for $16K and they were going to take that one instead of ours! I reminded him that we already had an accepted offer and I didn't think he could do that. Well he did it anyway.
I contacted the local board of realtors and they looked into it. I had moved down to Oklahoma in the meantime and figured I'd never hear anything about it again.
Several months into our move I get a letter from the Board of realtors asking me if I could come in for some sort of hearing. I made a special effort to come back for it, realtor lost his licence for one year. Don't know if he ever ended up back in the realestate business but I felt moderately vindicated even though I never got the house, which by the way resold within the year for $82,000!
I used to get pretty worked up over stuff like that but now I just let it slide, life aint all that long and I'm not wasting mine worrying about shid I cant control! In the words of Brownbagg, "the angers gonna eat ya up"
Doug
FOR US TO BE SUCCESSFUL
We need to deal with those feelings inside and not let them out to win friends and influence people .
Thats what happened when I laughed at the dish kid that said climbing on top of my A frame wasnt safe . I was thinking all along it must not have been safe to build it ! I found what he said ignorant , so I laughed and Im sure he read the rest on my face . I lost any chance of getting a dish put up. I lost. lose lose lose
Tim
I don't show or list property any more, but I'm part owner (with DW who now runs day-to-day biz) of a small real estate company.
The question I've learned to ask myself in these situations is whether it's worth the "brain damage" to even consider what may, or may not, have actually happened. One problem all us humans face is that sometimes we don't know if we were ripped or if it was just the way it went. That can be from something as exciting as a real estate deal or as mundane as which household member spilled a bit of detergent on the floor and didn't clean it up. Often we never can know.
IMO, professional demeanor is called for at this point. It is not professional nor ethical to get mad at people or change your behavior toward them for what you do not know to be fact. I'm not saying that's always easy HA!, but that it is the best and most ethical way to handle the situation. And that includes your communication with your client. Assume the best unless you actually know differently.
So, back at ya: Twice this year customers have called our office about a certain property that just went up for sale wanting to keep it hush-hush that the property was available so that they could quickly buy it. So, what's the problem? Well, in our market there are a number of people who watch the market daily. You guessed it: More than one person called each time about with the same info and the same request about the same property.
ALL: Ok, real estate buyers and sellers here, what is the broker to do in this situation?
I'll post what we did do at a later time.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Tell anyone who is interested to go ahead and make their offer in writing.Tell everyone up front that you are getting multiple offers.Set a deadline to accept offers. Then contact each Buyer and tell them to make their best offer. Then the Seller chooses the offer he thinks is the best.So is the house going to sell for higher than the asking price?
Both houses sold for less than asking price. Neither was our listing.In both instances one buyer was fine with a full explanation of what happened and one buyer was peeved and was sure we had done something wrong. In both cases it was an out-of-state investor who was peeved.We did as you said plus we explained that we usually here of a new listing (town of 4,500) within a day of listing and often we know before it's listed, even when it's getting listed with someone else. (Ah, small towns. Usually it's the relatives and neighbors who tell us.)Real estate is a strange business. It's so important to so many people and yet, as evidenced by dozens of posts in this thread, many people who invest in real estate obviously don't understand how the business works.A mentor of mine always said, "There's always another deal". I've found it to be true.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
About time you showed up... better late than never. Conspicuous by your absence, to quote Gracie Slick.
Hundred yrs ago when I was licensed, was helping a buyer in a specific neighborhood. Got a real education from her. This block good, that one not, etc. College town, 45k.
New multi-listing Sat morning. Showed it 2 PM, underpriced by 40%. Had a serious conversation with myself about dumping the buyer and writing a contract. Then thought about whether I needed another project at the time.
Buyer didn't react much to the showing so I sat her down and asked pointed questions, mostly comparing it to the other houses she'd seen. Offer made, below asking price (always some room, don't you know). Call on Monday from the lister saying they had another offer, similar but cash. Did my buyer want to raise her offer? Yup, she'd had time to reflect. Her very good fortune that I got the call.
This is how it's supposed to work far as I know. Other than the lister (apparently) incompetently under-listing.
You're right about always another deal, but I still regret some missed ones. One in particular: 9000 sq ft LoDo Denver (not a wino in sight), $60k- but red-lined and I couldn't find the cash. Within 9 mos (and one more sale) price was up to $300k. Now, a short walk from Coors' Field.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hi Tom!You are right that some passed deals can stick in your throat. Back in about '92 I was sure that Amazon.com was going to be big and that I should invest at least a thousand or two in it as a lark. I didn't do it. The pain of that is only that I wonder what I'm passing up today.In Jan '06 DW sold a house here for $97k (it was appraised and loaned on). The buyer died, the property was foreclosed upon, and it was listed about a month ago for $40k. I didn't buy it. My buddy said he'd make a lowball for the heck of it. He has it under contract for $30k. Can probably sell it easily for $60s-70s.Oh, well! I at least feel good that I lined him out with it.Is it cold enough for you to burn any wood yet?
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Don't know as it'll make you feel better, but I authorized 1/2 of my and DW's IRAs to buy WorldCom stock (instead of the under-performing mutual fund). Broker had never heard of WorldCom at that time. I knew an employee, sounded great. Broker checked rating (risky) and who was buying (retirement funds). I figured everything was fine.
Only to discover quite awhile (and 2 splits) later that the trade never happened. Pay attention to the paperwork? Yeah... now. That broker's history too.
House cooled off faster this year. Cruising at 66º now, means we'll have an evening fire if it's cloudy. Sunny day, we don't bother. Wind's howling this morning, treetops moving 30-40', 40º out, cold stove and 68º in. The sun's getting up, toasty soon.
Shop's another matter entirely. Same temp as outdoors, frequent stove firing and still won't get up to 60º. I knew better, never shoulda built it. One of my deer hunters was amazed that I'd give him black locust trees, best firewood in my woodlot but I've been roadbuilding= huge quantities of firewood. Gotta winch the locust out, too steep for a tractor.
That guy makes my life easy every deer season (running off unauthorized hunters, locating the turkeys for me), I'll keep him warm. 2 cords/truckload. Hunting's fair this year, 9 deer taken (8 bucks, they're picky). Last year, 27 total.
No turkey yet for me, but I've only put an hour into it. Out before dawn, not moving a muscle in full camo, making funny noises trying to sound like a good-lookin' lady turkey? I don't think so. Head/neck shot at 100+ yds on a nice warm afternoon is more my speed.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!