We are looking to buy a vacant lot.
In addition to the usual “offer to buy real estate ” form which itself is 6 pages long, here in So Carolina the realtor is trying to get us on a vacant lot to sign with her a 3 page “buyers agreemnet” document.
I have bought 4 homes and one business in my life but never signed one of these – and its confusing – anyone signed one ?
Edited 10/19/2008 6:53 pm ET by edwardh1
Replies
Who is this real estate agent? Are they the listing agent? Someone that you just called?
If they aren't the listing agent they don't want to do the work on the sale and then have you go use a different agent when you actually buy.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Agent is some one we have known somewhat socially for 30 years.
There is no listing agent, the seller is a person without an agent- she is doing a one time deal with him and he will pay her the comm- probably 1/2 of normal as there is no "listing" agent
Edited 10/19/2008 7:26 pm ET by edwardh1
In that case I would think that they would have a dual agency contract.But I am really not up on that and specialy in your area.But my impression is that many agent would not even mention a house for sale to their mother with a contract.Not to make sure that they are paid, but to make sure that some one does not claim that they are trying to pull a fast one and that includes their broker..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
the buyers agreement could lock you into paying her a commission regardless of how you find any real estate for as long as the agreement is in effect.
that may be something you do not want. what if you see a lot in the newspaper and arrange a deal on your own and have no need for a realtor? under the terms of contracts that I have seen the agent could sue you for a percentage any transaction you make
some agents will try to lock a hot buyer into a long term contract then let the multiple listing service do their work for them.
if none of that bothers you then keep the length of time to a minimum
I'm a licensed broker in Colorado.
The buyer's agency contract the broker wants you to sign probably (remember, I'm in a different state and this is a matter of state law) requires you to pay a commission to said broker for any real estate you buy within the specified agency period.
If the broker actually works for you (seriously works, as in has already tried to help you beyond what you might have expected) it's only fair that the broker be paid.
If you just called on an ad or a sign, I'd ask some pointed questions about just what the broker is promising, in writing, to do for the commission requested.
We're in a rural area and we regularly get someone stopping in our office saying they signed a buyer's broker agreement with someone in Denver, but they want us to show them property. i.e. their "broker" wants to get paid for next to nothing for the sale of a property the broker has never seen. Perhaps you can imagine our level of fondness for such deals. < G >
I wouldn't sign a buyer's agreement under those circumstances. It has nothing to do with this sale and it really limits your choices, if this deal doesn't go through.
There are a lot of real estate agents who think nothing of representing boths sides in a real estate deal, just so that they can get both halves of the commission. How would you like to be represented in court as the defendent, by the prosecutor?
I've even seen deals where a new listing was never listed, just sold to a buyer that the listing agent had in her back pocket...at a price that she negotiated, well below market value.
She got the full six percent commission, about thirty thousand dollars, for shuffling some papers. She also got the new listing on the same house from the buyer, a speculator who resold it soon thereafter for a one hundred thousand dollar profit.
Edited 10/19/2008 9:49 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
One problem is that the dam# thing is 3 pages long!
One problem is that the dam# thing is 3 pages long!
That's a very good indication that you shouldn't consider signing it. I've seen such agreements which were less than one page long.
I hope you're beginning to see that most real estate agents do what's in their own interest first, second and even third. The client's interest is of little significance.
One of my other serious criticisms of real estate agents is that I've never seen one who would make any effort to present a particular property correctly.
I've been to twenty or more open houses in this neighborhood over the last year, where the listing agent was sitting in the house, waiting to talk with prospects.
When I asked why their presentation materials didn't describe the many positive aspects of the location and the community they told me that all those things were obvious or not that significant.
To me that shows how little concern they have for their clients. Such laziness as a salesperson is unexcusable, particularly considering the amount of money that they receive for the very limited amount of work they do.
Remember that it's not five or six percent of the sale, it's a much larger percentage of the actual profit to the seller.
In my opinion the whole real estate business needs a thorough overhaul, to make it much more competitive and responsive to the clients.
I'm glad to see how the internet is making real estate sales easier for those who wish to hold on to their hard earned profits by selling their homes themselves. That's what I'll be doing, with the help of a couple of very good books on the subject and the services of several supporting professionals.
Edited 10/20/2008 4:05 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
One problem is that the dam# thing is 3 pages long!
That's a very good indication that you shouldn't consider signing it. I've seen such agreements which were less than one page long.
Eh. I wouldn't go that far. Some agreements are simply more thorough than others. This is one agreeement I found for SC that is 3 pages, but it's mostly boilerplate - very similar to what appears in a listing contract, in fact.
http://buyers-only-realty.com/buyer-agency/EBAA-SC.pdf
I'm glad to see how the internet is making real estate sales easier for those who wish to hold on to their hard earned profits by selling their homes themselves.
I'd say that unless someone takes a rundown POS shack and turns it into a decent, livable home, or (more commonly) improves an existing structure, they're not really "earning" their equity so much as "accruing" it - except that part they accrue through paying down the mortgage.
Even then, in many cases, people are just sitting on an asset and letting it appreciate. Most people don't live in their homes long enough (or in many cases, don't put enough down) to have much of their equity be a result of anything other than market price appreciation.
Jason
they're not really "earning" their equity so much as "accruing" it - except that part they accrue through paying down the mortgage.
It may look that simple to you but for most people, making the commitment to all the financial obligations that are part of owning a home is a very serious concern, one that takes hold of their lives for years. It limits their discretionary income and some of their freedom too.
Then there's the uncertainty of local economies, some dependent on specific markets which are influenced by many things which aren't predictable. You need only look a bit closer at current foreclosures in different areas of the country to see how easy it is to lose many years of home equity, practically overnight.
It takes a lot more than luck to make money, investing in a home. There's "sweat equity" that's never seen either, like the nagging worry about making the mortgage payment which is part of a homeowner's every waking moment during uncertain times.
I think that most homeowners who live through a few economic cycles, where home values rise and then fall, and eventually earn a profit when selling their home, deserve that money a lot more than some real estate "professional".
Edited 10/20/2008 9:34 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It may look that simple to you but for most people, making the commitment to all the financial obligations that are part of owning a home is a very serious concern, one that takes hold of their lives for years. It limits their discretionary income and some of their freedom too.
Hm...that never occurred to me. That would certainly explain why we're sending all that money to a bank every month.
Your tone is condescending, and you seem to be implying that realtors exist in a vacuum, parasitically feeding on unsuspecting homeowners.
Most of us have house payments of our own to make, and like many in the building trades, are self-employed, with all the excitement that entails.
I think that most homeowners who live through a few economic cycles, where home values rise and then fall [...]
See, most don't live in a particular house through any number of economic cycles. On average, Americans move every 7 years or so. Obviously, your mileage will vary.
and eventually earn a profit when selling their home, deserve that money a lot more than some real estate "professional".
I would agree that sellers deserve whatever they can get out of the transaction. Some people deserve more because they're willing to put in the time and put up w/ the hassle of selling the place themselves. If they're not willing or able to hassle with it, they hire a Realtor, who is entitled to whatever fee they negotiate with the seller.
If they're not willing or able to hassle with it, they hire a Realtor, who is entitled to whatever fee they negotiate with the seller.
When you oversimplify like this you're going to get answers that explain the basic components. If you chose to read condescension into those answers, so be it.
The fees aren't really negotiable on the part of the seller because buyers' agents won't show the house if the commission percentage is below what they can get from others.
Edit: I should point out that most of my dealings with real estate agents have been in Los Angeles. It seems like one slug crawling over another to me. The slime is hard to ignore.
Edited 10/20/2008 12:18 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
The fees aren't really negotiable on the part of the seller because buyer's agents won't show the house if the commission percentage is below what they can get from others.
Sure they're negotiable - it's a two-sided transaction, and the total fee is actually split four ways - two agents, two brokers. In my locale at least, the buyer's agent has no idea what total commission the seller is paying - the only info they get is the buyer's agent payout (usu. between 2.4-3%). The total fee is confidential info, though it's easy to make an educated guess.
Every brokerage has its own rules as to how much leeway agents have to negotiate sales commissions. Some are quite strict, others (like mine) are of the "just kill it and drag it home - we'll figure out how to cut it up later" mentality.
Moreover, with nearly all listings online anymore, it's become much more of a collaborative process than it used to be. Most buyers I work with come up with 25-30% of the houses I show them on their own. And if Bob and Suzie Homebuyer tell me they want to see that house on Main Street, I'm gonna show it to them. Even if the payout is only 2%, I don't want to pizz them off, and splitting 2% with my broker is better than nothing.
With me, sellers can set not only the buyer's agent commission payout, but negotiate the listing side payout as well. There's plenty of room for negotiation in my rates, which are pretty low to begin with.
There are certain constraints - generally, I like to make what the buyer's agent is going to make (though that is subject to change depending on circumstances), and I have a bare minimum I have to charge to keep the lights on, but that's about it, really. Again, less is better than nothing.
Edit: I should point out that most of my dealings with real estate agents have been in Los Angeles. It seems like one slug crawling over another to me. The slime is hard to ignore.
Your comments make more sense in light of that. I have worked with people who verge on paranoia about realtors and/or home sellers because of their experiences in other parts of the country. Kinda sad, really.
This thread is 75% BS. What a surprise.I am a licensed Realtor in MT. I HAVE to get a signed Buyer/Broker agreement before I can write up a Buy Sell. It's mandatory.The only questions that are important are:1) Is it exclusive?2) Is it general or for a specific property?
The only questions that are important are:
1) Is it exclusive?
2) Is it general or for a specific property?
3) None of the above
Actually with Data.com and the MLS being exposed on the internet , theres less reasons to even deal with a realator. They used to be in control of the information. Thats how they make their living and its getting diminished.
I can see a house I want with or with out a sign out front and get all the information I want from data.com in five minutes.
I dont need your services near as bad as you need my business.
Tim
Edited 10/22/2008 8:43 am by Mooney
Edited 10/22/2008 8:45 am by Mooney
>I dont need your services near as bad as you need my business. <
Zactly. When we sold DWs house when we got married we listed through an on-line service that for a flat fee provided the MLS listing and a lock box. We had the option of paying 0% to realtors up to as high as we wanted. We paid 3% which is 1/2 of the standard and what a realtor would get anyway if a realtor different than the one listing it sold it. Since we were willing to pay the 3% we had quite a few realtors show the hosue and 1 included it in her open house on a nearby property.
Contrary to what many realotrs will tell us, I've not seen any actively pursue the sale of a property particular as much as they pursue the purchase for a client. Maybe not so much a personal jab against them, but more of the reality of circumstances of fickleness of buyers looking for cetain things. For that I need to pay 3%? I don't think so.
As for the OP, if this agreement covers a very broad spectrum that covers any and all properties you may find on your own or by other means, avoid it like the plague. A personal friend went to court and lost on an agreement with this scenario.
Actually with Data.com and the MLS being exposed on the internet , theres less reasons to even deal with a realator
I tried that URL. Got a site call Light Reading. Where's the one you're refering to? Got Link?
http://www.publicdata.com/cgi-win/logon.exe?Process=tacChooseDB&tacCntl=E&dlnumber=DEMO
Its a pay site used for tracking . Thats a demo page . All you have to have is a correct name , address thats legal, license plate . drivers , etc. In this case in my area all I have to have is an address and Im in business.
Tim
Two attorneys looked at the 3 page long buyer agreement . The first one said just put words in the offer to buy that says the seller will pay the realtor.
the second one said "wow this is hard to read" and said just put some words in the offer to buy, also.
Realtor then stopped asking about the buyers agreement getting signed, after we said we did not want to sign it.
The lawyers were confused? Gee, I guess the realtor WAS trying to pull a fast one!
Im not against agents.
I value my relationship with good ones. I always wish I had better ones. They are necesary.
With that said I dont believe in giving them a blank check. They can lose my business at any time.
With that said there has to be some trust and if theres not then you need to go agent shopping . Or take a look at your self . Two business men that share the same business priciples can work together. If I tell my agent I want a piece of property then she has it . I wont talk to another agent about that property. If I ask her to look for a piece then Ill wait on her . If she doesnt find it I might ask why. If she doesnt give answer that helps both of us I might then tell her Im moving on .
The hard thing about agents is they arent built the same . YOu may have one thats a member at the golf course and has those contacts. Another might be a school teacher . Some wear nice high heels and can show expensive property with class but are useless in the repo business. Usually thats a guy that wears blue jeans . I had an agent that could track better than a bloodhound .
I might need one type on one deal and another type somewhere else at the same time . What I talk to one about is their deal though. They all think you only need one agent and one priest . Its not their money thats at risk . If they would just put up 20 grand per property with me then I could see it their way a lot better.
Tim
I checked out that site. Thanks for the link. What's its biggest value to you? Or..how do you use it most often?
BTW, I recently did a search for property I own in New York State on a county web site, to see what information was available.
Wow! It was almost like hiring a private detective. So much information, including assessment history and tax history, plus four close-up satellite photos of the place, from different angles.
Someone mentioned in another thread that photos like these are used by assessors to look for additions and other improvements. Man, Big Brother IS watching us.
I use the information for looking for repos mostly. Like you said its a detective . All I need is an address or a name . In 5 minutes Ive got a history. Realators use it as a tool as well. Thats where I got it. They made the mistake of showing me a sheet with the website on it .
Tim
Here's another service that may interest you: http://www.realtytrac.com/pub/landing/landingmedia.asp?optimized=2&accnt=189390u:
Edited 10/23/2008 1:20 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Your comments make more sense in light of that.
Yes, the RE business a serious clusterphuck in L.A. Most sales are handled by people known to the sellers, friends and neighbors, and they still have zero scruples about giving them the shaft, any way they can.
A listing presentation in L.A. is a diabolical thing of ugly intentions.
BTW, commission % is on the property listing here, easy for the agent to see. And there are just two commissions paid, buyer's and seller's agents.
"And there are just two commissions paid, buyer's and seller's agents."That's buyer's and seller's *brokers*. I don't think LA is any different from the rest of California in that respect.If the agent has a broker's license and isn't working under a different broker, then s/he gets the whole (buyer's or seller's broker) commission. Otherwise, it's split between the agent and his/her broker. The broker and the agent have a completely separate agreement, that you are not a party to, that spells out how they will split the commission.If unlicensed real estate agents are selling property in Los Angeles, they are violating state law. Of course, that may indeed be the case.
http://www.dre.ca.gov/exm_sales.html
"A license may also be obtained by a person who does not immediately intend to be employed by a broker. However, a salesperson without an employing broker may not perform acts requiring a real estate license."Rebeccah
Thanks for the clarification, though it makes little difference to me who gets what share of the commission or why.
You shouldn't be confused by the paperwork. If you are, don't sign it.
We did when we bought our cottage but it turned out to be a pain in the butt. We ended up buying in an area quite far from where we started out looking, and the original agent had no involvement in the search in the new area. New agent worked a great deal showing us places, one of which we purchased. We were upfront that we had signed this agreement, but I always felt bad that the original agent who had done very very little work by comparison, ended up with a portion of the commission. Lesson learned for me... I will never sign another. When we were looking for a house years later... again asked to sign the buyer agreement by an agent who showed us a couple of houses. We declined, and simply said... if you find us the house we want to buy... you will make the commission. End of discussion about the agreement.
real estate law varies from state to state. I live in Washington state, and was a licensed agent for a couple of years. In our state, what you describe wouldn't be uncommon. The agent would want to be sure they were going to get paid for the sale of the property. Additionally, it gives you some rights that this is YOUR agent, working for YOU. Now, it came up that perhaps the agent would be a 'dual agent' and if that were the case here, it would need to be fully disclosed to the buyer and seller.If you wanted to use this agent for the purchase of the property, you could add an 'addendum' or fill in a blank that "this agreement only pertains to the purchase and sale of the property at 123 Main street, anywhere city".finally, I always told my clients to be sure to understand everything they sign.
Ask if you can have a Transaction Brokerage Agreement with her instead of a Buyers Agreement as she is doing both sides of the transaction. This keeps her at arms length. In a Buyers Agreement she is representing you and can not (should not) release information about you that you tell her (ie how much you can spend, or the max you would pay for a property). In a Transaction Brokerage you do not tell her those things, she does the paperwork and tells you where to sign and that is all, she does not represent you. Many agents do not want to do the work without some type of agreement, too many times people have screwed over agents who are just trying to make a living.
Same as above, I am licensed in MO and Transaction Brokerage is legal here and may or may not be in your state.
I"m licensed in Nebraska, so this may or may not apply to you. In circumstances such as yours, sometimes buyers & realtors will enter into an agreement for the purchase of a specific property and none other. That would be worth asking about.
Also, buyer agency agreements generally specify which party or parties is to pay the commission, and the specifc amount of that commission.
Incidentally, my Buyer Agency agreeement is one printed page. Three pages suggests that it covers a bit more ground, or possibly just goes into greater detail about who is doing what.
Jason
I don't care how nicely printed the agreement is, what title is on it, or how much they insist it is but a 'standard agreement' or 'just procedure' ..... get a copy, go elsewhere, and look it over at your leisure. Then, find an uninvolved party to explain things to you.
The fact is, there are precious few legal forms that are anything like "standard." The fancy print job and twisted language is sometimes used to persuade you into agreeing to things that you otherwise might not .... think of it as 'packaging.'
With the 'bubble' having burst, remember it is YOU who is in the drivers' seat.
There's probably many things to consider.
One would be: In most states, the laws say that a real estate agent works for the seller, unless there is a specific agreement to the contrary. If that is the case in SC, then you'll probably need to sign.
But be careful to read what you sign. There may be a clause that says this realtor will get a % of anything you buy over a specific time period -- not just a % of this one property.
I do several transactions per year over a 17 year period . Ive never signed one because I wont sign one . They wont promise anything will come to pass. Why should I? You have to think as someone else said what are they doing for you? What have they done for you lately? As someone else said theres 6 percent that goes to them so if their not happy with that you might st move on to somone that will work for 6 percent . They dont have a dime of their money invested. I dont think they deserve anymore than they earn.
Tim