hello all — starting my kitchen remodel and looking for recommendations on recessed light fixtures. My selection guidelines in no specific order are:
– small aperture
– dimmable
– energy efficient
– air-tight
– insulated ceiling
– reasonable pricing
I know its hard to meet all criteria but if anyone has experience with a product that they are very happy with I would love to know about it. In my opinion lighting manufacturers produce way too many fixtures and its just overwhelming trying to sort through all of them.
thanks in advance for your input.
Sean
Replies
Since the ceiling is insulated, you will be required to use IC Rated cans, so that will narrow your options considerably. Almost all will be dimmable, as long as you use line voltage and incandescent bulbs. The aperture size will be a function of the trim, not the housing.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Halo or Juno.
Stay away from the cheap stuff (for example, Commercial Electric).
Both H and J have good websites where you can sort through the housings and baffles/trims to get what you want.
Want someone to pick it out for you? Pay a lightining designer...
My dos centavos.
Cliff
"Reasonable pricing" will be hardest to obtain, like as not.
Better fixtures (i.e., having more desirable features) are not often selected in bulk. Which means there are fewer made, and fewer still stocked for sale. Both of those factors makes better fixtures less economical. That's the breaks of it.
I'll guess that you are not in CA, or a similar state which mandates CFLs, since you'd like dimable. The dimming (mostly) is in the switching, if the lamps in the fixtures "dim" of course ("plain" CFL generally don't; some LV systems need a propeitary dimmer on the fixture side of the transformer).
Lighting design is interesting stuff; it can be incredibly rewarding in practice. It's not exactly something I'd recommend to learn OTJ, though. Which does not necessarily mean you need a high-price lighting designer; but there are times when one is cheap at twice the price.
Second for what Cap said - Halo or Juno.
I think Halo can fill your needs.
- small aperture -- 4" and up diameter cans
- dimmable -- pends on what bulb you put in
- energy efficient -- "
- air-tight --- available -- model will end in "AT"
- insulated ceiling -- IC available
- reasonable pricing -- be advised that virtually all manufacturers cans are reasonably priced -- trim price is where they get you. Check before you commit to a can manufacturer.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I'll third what others said re: Halo & Juno.
You might consider getting a book or two on lighting design. I did before I did the lighting on my bathroom remodel, and I'm *very* glad that I did. Saved me from more expensive lessons.
What, you guys don't like Lightolier?
I've used it for a number of years and like their stuff pretty well , though I like and use Juno too on occasion.
Halo's sold out to the big-box stores as far as I can tell..........they used to be a good brand, maybe they still are, but the electrical suppliers around here don't carry their stuff.
Ed
thanks for the replies. My "real" job is designing retail stores and we do about 150-200 a year and we absolutely rely on a lighting designer for those -- I agree that lighting design is an extremely interesting discipline but challenging enough that I'm happy to leave it to the pros. Its likely that I will be asking for their "help" in "purchasing" the fixtures so I didn't want to go to them with both hands out - ie: "can you give me a great deal AND design it for me too". I feel much better doing some of the homework myself.For the record, I'm from Jersey, not CA -- I do love the idea of the CFL and I think the light quality these days is great compared to what it used to be, but I am also a huge fan of the dimmer. From what I understand you can dim some CFL's but it does not work quite the same as with an incandescent - the color temperature actually changes when you dim them - not good in my opinion. I know lighting technology changes fairly quickly and some of you guys with your boots on the ground probably know more then even the best lighting designers - so I was hoping you knew of the "magic" recessed fixture that does it all. I'm familiar with all of the brands you recommended, I must say though that those big Halo "Contractor Packs" at the Depot don't exactly scream hi-quality to me, could just be my perception though.Let me do some more homework and maybe I'll run some options past you for comment. Thanks again for the replies.
If you do that many stores, take one of the guys to lunch and show him a floor plan of the kitchen and maybe a picture or two. For a free lunch you will probably get more information than you need."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Check the prices on trims for 4 or 5" cans first . You really get hosed on the non standard sizes, as much as 20 bucks a trim. It can get ugly fast. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
You really get hosed on the non standard sizes, as much as 20 bucks a trim.
You're making a joke, right?
NO! Call up Juno and ask for the price on a 5" can. You will fill your drawers!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
You just told me it's $20. So I asked is your comment that you consider that being hosed a joke.
In the real world of recessed lighting, $20 would be an inexpensive trim.
Ed
Depends on how thick your wallet is. The point is that from 6" trim to 5" trim the price difference is a lot. If you can use 6" trim you have more choices and less cost. Depends on what you want.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Depends on how thick your wallet is...........Depends on what you want.
It's not my wallet I'm talking about ...it's my customers'. When I price an average residential wiring job I put in $75/fixture for a lighting allowance, unless someone gives me spec's. Sometimes it comes out more and sometimes it comes out less.
If you can use 6" trim you have more choices and less cost.
I agree, unless someone chooses a pricey 6" trim (like a deep Alzak parabolic reflector, @ near $100/apiece).
Ed
Edited 11/7/2007 6:09 pm ET by edlee
those big Halo "Contractor Packs" at the Depot don't exactly scream hi-quality to me,
You got that right. Home Depot demands a certain price from the manufacturor in exchange for purchasing large volume, so the manufacturor cuts a few corners when they make them to compensate.
But big-box aside, the other factors are that 1) the budget/builder housings can't handle as large a variety of trims as the better housings.
2) the sockets tend to sit lower in the budget housings so the lamp is more visible, even with the same trim.
For example, Juno makes a good versatile 6" housing, IC-rated, #IC2. They also make what they call a budget 6" housing, IC-rated, #IC22.
For a savings of $8-$10 each, it doesn't seem worth it to me to buy the cheap ones, unless my customer is truly trying to save money and isn't real picky about the lights.
Ed
Edited 11/7/2007 5:32 pm ET by edlee
>> you can dim some CFL's but it does not work quite the same as with an incandescent - the color temperature actually changes when you dim them - not good in my opinion.
News flash ---- the color temperature on incandescents change dramatically when you dim them also. Lower voltage produces a lower color temp - more toward the red end of the spectrum.
Frosted white 60w bulb in a open fan light fixture - 2560 K. at full voltage; 2040 K. at 1/2 dim position; > 1600 K. at full dim. My Color Temperature meter will only measure down to 1600 K. Below that and it just produces a flashing display at 1600 K.
You just may not like the color effect of dimmed florescents. Not sure I have ever seen it - but I don't like florescent light in a home setting anyhow.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
you are correct Jim -- I guess my perception of the light quality of a dimmed incand. and a dimmed CFL is the issue, not the color temperature. With a little more research, it seems the dimmable range of a CFL is also limited as compared to an incandescent lamp.So I have contacted our lighting vendor and they quickly suggested a low voltage MR16 fixture because it is dimmable, very small aperture, and great color rendering (CRI). Any thoughts on (a) low voltage in general and (b) MR16 bulbs. I think the low voltage fixtures run a little more expensive because of the transformers but I should be getting a pretty sweet deal to offset that. I'd love to hear from some of the electricians out there about install on these fixtures - are they easier to work with? install? etc... I'll be getting a deal on the fixtures but I don't want to get nailed by my electrician by spec'ing a pain in the a** fixture.
There's nothing more difficult in installing them though the housing themselves can be bulky because of the transformers.
Dimmers cost more and the range in terms dimmer) wattage is a bit more limited, especially with the electronics. Lutron makes a nice line of dimmers, many different styles with different features.
But the illumination is great, and fun to play with: differing wattages and beam-spreads.
Ed
First of all kitchens need brightness in the space which is best accomplished by using some flush mount or pendant fixtures (ceiling height permitting) and using recessed lighting for accents or general lighting in areas not requiring a feeling of brightness in the space.
Second Halo or Lightolier - also the IC housings are better made than old work style.
There are lots of dimmable CFLs out there - example: http://www.buylighting.com/Dimmable-Compact-Fluorescent-s/113.htm
Jeff
Juno, Juno, and Juno.
Lutron Grafik Eye master dimmer with scene setting.
12V is expensive, but for the drama, it's worth it, IMHO.
Undercabinet lighting by Kichler, the 1, 2, and 3 bulb xenon fixtures. Hi lo rocker switch, dimmable, 12V xformer in wire harness.
You will be in this kitchen a lot. Make a statement with your lighting.
Gene,
I didn't realize that they could be dimmed, I always try to talk people out of "rope light" and suggest the lights you mentioned. They are a little pricey, but well worth it. Thank you.
Dennis