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Recessed lights and thick ceilings…

JDLee | Posted in Construction Techniques on February 2, 2008 09:03am

I would like to install 4″ or 3″ recessed lights in a bedroom I’m redoing.  It’s a single -story home with ample attic access.

My problem is that instead of mounting the drywall directly to the bottom chord of the truss, I’m mounting the drywall onto a layer of 1″ thick rigid foam insulation.  So, in terms of mounting lights, it’s as though my drywall is 1 5/8″ thick. 

All of the 3″ and 4″ remodel-style light cans I’ve seen are non-insulation contact, and I intend to have not only the 1″ rigid foam, but also R19 fiberglass bats where the lights will go. 

I could buy the 3″ or 4″ cans and cut a hole about 1″ larger in the rigid foam than in the drywall, thus giving the clips room to clip to the drywall.  But then I’d have do away with the fiberglass insulation for 3″ around the cans, and I don’t want to do that.  And maybe I’d even have to cut a much larger hole in the rigid foam insulation so that it is 3″ away from the can, though it seems to me that because it is rigid and only 1″ thick, it would be okay with just 1″ clearance.

I did see a 4″ can fixture rated for insulation contact, but it is clearly made to mount flush against 1/2″ of drywall.  I could open a huge hole in the rigid insulation and use some spacers to mount this 4″ IC fixture flush with the drywall. 

But before I go through all of that, I was wondering if anyone had a better idea for all of this?

Thanks

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Replies

  1. JerryHill | Feb 02, 2008 09:19pm | #1

    Most of the cans that I deal with have an adjustable inner sleeve that will slide down to compensate for varying ceiling thicknesses.Just curious..........why the rigid foam? Won't this cause some finishing issues down the road ie. joints and seam cracking?

    1. JDLee | Feb 02, 2008 11:51pm | #2

      I want and need the extra R value the foam offers.  I don't know how it could cause cracking as the foam is securely glued and screwed to the bottom chords of the trusses, and the drywall will be mounted with screws that go all the way through the foam and 1" into the bottom chords.

      I can slide the inner part of the light down from the housing (and even pull it out completely leaving only the electrical wires connecting the two), but it doesn't look like it's made to do that (especially not an entire inch.  But maybe I'm wrong and that's okay?

      1. Grott | Feb 03, 2008 01:38am | #3

        If your worried about R-value don't use Fiber Glass....Cut the hole larder like you suggested, build an air tight box out of 1 1/2 or 2" foam and seal that around the back of the can. Or buy IC new construction cans and insulate right to them...be sure it is air tight.Cans are a major air leakage point and can cause much condensation.Garett

        1. JDLee | Feb 03, 2008 03:06am | #4

          If not fiberglass insulation, then what?  I will only have the equivalent of a 2x6 in depth (5.5", or R19 for fiberglass bats). 

          There will be OSB on top of the chords.  I don't want to pay to have foam sprayed in this area, so the only other thing I can think of is something like recycled denim.

          Edited 2/3/2008 12:33 am ET by JDLee

          1. rlrefalo | Feb 05, 2008 06:28am | #9

               I think you'll have drywall problems if you attach through foam. Nail/screw pops. Gyp board should be mounted on something dense and non compressible.(sp?) Prefferably with adhesive also. I'd go with furring strips after the foam.

               Why osb on the top of the lower chord? Are you sure the trusses are rated for storage?

          2. JDLee | Feb 05, 2008 12:11pm | #12

            I'm using the Dow Tuff-R brand, foil coated 1" rigid insulation.  It seems pretty solid.  And I plan to use drywall screws that are long enough to go all the way through it and the normal distance into the bottom chord in the trusses.  (So I'll use 2 1/2" drywall screws).  Furthermore, I'm using Quietrock soundproofing drywall, which is much more solid than regular drywall (half of it is comprised of ceramic layer).  I could also glue it (the foam is firmly glued and screwed to the bottom chords). 

            Given all of this, do you think furring strips would really be necessary?  How thick would they need to be?

          3. rlrefalo | Feb 05, 2008 03:29pm | #13

            Yes I believe the furring strips are necessary. It takes such a small amount of movement to pop loose the compound on top of screws. The furring could be metal hat channel or minimum 3/4 " wood, 5/4 would be better, IMO.

          4. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Feb 05, 2008 07:47pm | #14

            Quiterock?  That is some pretty pricy drywall for a 1 story ceiling!  What noise exactly are you trying to keep out?  What do you hope to accomplish by this project specificly?  It's possible that the brain trust (used loosely ;) here might be able to offer a better, cheaper solution.

            You mention OSB over the truss bottom chords... are you sure you are talking about actual trusses and not just regular ceiling joists?  Trusses are a nightmare of 2x4 seemingly designed specificly to foil any useful attic space.  OK, they hold up a roof too.

            I was thinking Mooney Ceiling for this project myself.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

            If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts.  You nut, you.

          5. JDLee | Feb 05, 2008 08:30pm | #15

            Mooney Ceiling?

            I'm trying to accomplish maximum soundproofing.  My elderly mother is going to be moving in with me, and without the soundproofing it will just never work.

            Yes, I'm speaking of trusses.  Trusses which I have reinforced.  And yes, there is a nightmare of webbing, but that's okay.  I'm working around it (and not cutting any part of the trusses).

            Thanks for any input

          6. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Feb 05, 2008 10:33pm | #16

            The Mooney Wall thread:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=65624.236

            Basicly, you apply stapping across your main supports (truss frames in this case) to act as a break.  Using RISC clips and hat channel, it would be a great sound break.  A mesh barrier is applied so you can see what you are doing when blowing celulose.  The whole ceiling might cost 3 sheets of Quiterock.

            Think about repalcing doors with 1 3/4" thick fire doors (very dense) that have the foam firestopping edge.  This seals the door and really kills sound.  Having doors on sound tunnels like hallways makes a big difference too.  Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

            If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts.  You nut, you.

          7. JDLee | Feb 06, 2008 09:05am | #19

            I couldn't find much if any information on the Mooney wall with that link you posted.

            Everything I've read about other methods of soundproofing like resilient sound channels indicates they are difficult to install properly, and if installed improperly, aren't worth much.  Quietrock seems to be pretty foolproof.  Given the amount of labor involved, and the extreme problems redoing it would require if another method failed, it makes sense to me to use Quietrock.

            I have purchased Safe 'n Sound doors to help with sound, and I am putting a door in the hallway (just seemed like a good idea to me). 

            I do appreciate all the input I can get.

            Edited 2/6/2008 1:07 am ET by JDLee

          8. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Feb 06, 2008 10:07am | #21

            Exactly what is the layout of your house?  We collectively might have some tips and tricks for you.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

            If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts.  You nut, you.

          9. JDLee | Feb 06, 2008 08:33pm | #24

            I'm not sure how much detail you'd need.  It's a single-story subdivsion slab home built in '79 or '80 in San Diego, CA.  It's about 1700 sq. ft.  In addition to using QR, I'm making a couple of key walls double-stud walls.  I'm also insulating all of the interior walls.

            Edited 2/6/2008 12:34 pm ET by JDLee

    2. JDLee | Feb 03, 2008 05:07am | #5

      Here are some pictures of the Halo fixture (H991CT) I'm considering using.  The first shows it as it comes out of the box, the second shows how I could pull the liner out some, and the third shows the liner pulled all the way out.

      Are you saying it's okay to leave it partially pulled out as shown in the second picture?  Given that the first few inches of the liner are the same diameter, I can see that making sense.  And I can see mounting them that way.  I just want to make sure that that is an okay way to mount these lights.

      Is it okay to mount them this way?

      Can as it comes out of the box:

      View Image

      Can with liner extended an inch or so:

      View Image

      Can with liner pulled all the way out:

      View Image

      Edited 2/2/2008 9:35 pm ET by JDLee

      1. DK | Feb 03, 2008 06:58pm | #6

        Hello there , you could also use light bulb socket extenders I used them due to lath and plaster cielings and drywall on top . Picked them up at HD for $2 each, adds about 1 o r2 inches DAN

  2. User avater
    Jeff_Clarke | Feb 05, 2008 05:57am | #7

    Use an IC housing - http://www.haloltg.com/common/brands.cfm?pg=Products&brand=Halo&group=Recessed&category=Recessed%20Downlighting%3A%203%22%20Incandescent%20and%20Low%20Voltage%3A%203%22%20Housings

    They offer a more secure mounting for trims anyway.

    I would ask your configuration question of the local Halo product representative - he/she may not know the answer, but they'll know who to ask at Cooper Lighting technical support.

    Jeff



    Edited 2/4/2008 9:58 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke

  3. RobWes | Feb 05, 2008 06:17am | #8

    I had the same problem in a few areas.

    PL'ed the trim to the plaster. Didn't have much of a choice.

  4. Link | Feb 05, 2008 06:42am | #10

    The way I see it you really have to use an air tight fixture rated IC (insulation contact).  If you cover over another kind of fixture with insulation you could have overheating problems.  And, just using fiberglass would not be air tight.

    You could cut out a larger hole in your 1" insulation and cover over an IC box either with your 1" insulation or some fiberglass or nothing.  An air hole in your ceiling is much worse that a small gap in your insulation.

    1. JDLee | Feb 05, 2008 12:03pm | #11

      This is basically the option I've decided upon.  I'm going with a 5" or 6" IC rated, airtight remodel can.  I really need a shallow one, and I'm having trouble finding an airtight shallow remodel fixture.  I'd also like fluorescent, though I could, of course, put compact fluorescents in a standard can.

      I've found a couple online that fit the bill, but they are brands I don't know.  I guess that shouldn't worry me?

      1. Aaron | Feb 05, 2008 11:55pm | #17

         

        This is basically the option I've decided upon.  I'm going with a 5" or 6" IC rated, airtight remodel can.  I really need a shallow one, and I'm having trouble finding an airtight shallow remodel fixture.  I'd also like fluorescent, though I could, of course, put compact fluorescents in a standard can.

        I've found a couple online that fit the bill, but they are brands I don't know.  I guess that shouldn't worry me?

        From my personal experience, do not order from a company called Contractors Choice Lighting.  You're welcome in advance.

        You could try this one:

        http://ylighting.com/r5vi-s-r-ica.html

        Ylighting sells some pretty high end stuff, although I have never heard of WAC.

        Oh, and good choice going with the remodel can.  The 4 inch IC is for new construction, and would have been a real pain to make work in your situation.  Don't ask why I know.

        1. JDLee | Feb 06, 2008 09:00am | #18

          Oh, and good choice going with the remodel can.  The 4 inch IC is for new construction, and would have been a real pain to make work in your situation.  Don't ask why I know.

          Yes, I can imagine.  I was deep into the planning process when I realized that I couldn't remember exactly why I had decided against the remodel style lights.  But I do know that whatever that reason was, there is more reason to go against the 4" new construction ones.

          You could try this one:

          http://ylighting.com/r5vi-s-r-ica.html

          Ylighting sells some pretty high end stuff, although I have never heard of WAC.

          What is "WAC"?

          The one you linked to looks like the best option I've seen.  I was also looking at this one, but it is 6" (bigger than I want), and it looks sort of cheap to me.  What do you think? (I'm interested in your opinion not in terms of what I'll use on this job, because I like the one you linked to, but rather just because I'm not sure I know how to judge these things):

          http://www.usalight.com/rx106sricat_c_112_p_1_pr_1313.html

          Thanks for the heads up on the other company.  It's hard to know who to deal with on something like this.  I mean, I want a quality product that is designed well with safety in mind.

          1. Aaron | Feb 06, 2008 04:41pm | #22

            You may want to try a local lighting store.  The brands they carry should be good quality and they will be more likely to assist you if problems come up.

            I personally like smaller fixtures, but 6 inch housings have more trims available than 5 inch housings.

  5. User avater
    Jeff_Clarke | Feb 06, 2008 09:56am | #20

    Keep in mind that hanging QR on a ceiling can be a 3-man job (heavy).   The manuf. recommends use of a drywall lift.   Might want to review this - http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40849.    Review manuf. recommendations carefully

    Why spend almost $100/sheet and all that labor only to cut holes in it?   (yes, I know the manuf. says OK).   Use surface-mounted fixtures with pancake boxes or anything else to keep from putting holes in it - you'd be surprised how acoustical systems can be compromised by even small holes and slots, etc.

    Jeff

    1. JDLee | Feb 06, 2008 08:29pm | #23

      Hi Jeff.  Thanks for the input.

      I have a drywall hoist and a couple of 3rd hands with the wide end pieces.

      I know what you mean about holes in the QR.  But I'm going to use their sealeant and Quietputty and/or Dynamat on the ceiling cans.  They assure me that their QP will ensure that the effectiveness of the QR is not compromised.  And they seem very, very careful to warn you when things might compromise the soundproofing, or even when you're trying to do some configuration they haven't tested.  It's my impression that they want customers to be completely satisfied with the end result so they will continue to use and recommend their product.

      Also, the QR 510 is only $40 per sheet, and the 525 is only $64 per sheet.  You don't get into the $100 range until you get their shear rated, metal lined 530 panels or their new water resistant panels (Densarmor 528).

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