It seems as though everyone is skipping my earlier post. So I will try again.
I was recently asked to install a oak floor in a house. Since I have never done one I would like suggestions. Here is the details: It came out of an old school house. Tongue and groove and there is more than enough. Lots of finish on it. Should I thickness plane all of this. Should I take it all to the local mill and have it run through the drum sander. How should I attach it ot the slab floor that is is going on. Should I lay down a subfloor and then nail it. Should I glue it to the slab. It is about 50-60 years old and the joints are skummed up with many years of maybe God knows what. Do I need to freshen these joints. Seems like this is more expensive than layinga new floor. Currently there is ceramic tile on the floor where the oak will be layed. Someone else is removing that. Any help will be greatly appreciated
Replies
Well cutawooda, you're askin' a lot of questions here. First off, I tore a maple floor out a school building 20 years ago and reinstalled it in the house we still live in.
So if this floor has been installed and sanded at least once before, you know you could be getting into a thickness issue, right? The main thing to be concerned with is the thickness between what will be the finished surface and the top of the tongue. That is, if you plan to blind nail diagonally down through the tongue, which is the traditional method of nailing a t&g floor.
BUT (notice how big that "but" is?) if you are going over a slab, there might be a way to glue it down, instead of laying sleepers perpendicular to the way the flooring will run, and nailing the flooring to those sleepers. IF (notice how big that "if" is?) you can glue instead of toe nail, the thickness above the tongue won't be as critical, because you won't have to worry about sanding too far and exposing the nailheads.
So what I'm saying is, you have to figure out how you're gonna attach this stuff, and determine how much material you can afford to surface off the top of the boards before you can decide whether to have them surfaced before you install them or not. They will have to be sanded again after they are installed anyway (unless you want a real rustic, uneven floor).
The point you make about the crap on the edges of the boards is a good one. Scrape as much of that stuff off with a putty knife as you can. As you well know, anything between two boards when you nail them tight, will only stay there - no way you're gonna get that stuff out after installation.
Probably confused you more than I helped, huh? Someone else will come along and clear things up. I just felt bad because you said no one answered your question before. You're asking the right questions, good luck.
...Surely a drum sander would round over the edges of the boards, leaving you with a noticeably curved top surface. Plus I'm not sure anyone would care much to gunk up their sander with decades of old varnish.
Perhaps a thickness planer would work, if it won't gunk up the planer (and if you're positive there are no old nails, tacks, or staples hiding out in those floorboards).
Could you install the flooring first, then refinish with a floor sander?
I have relaid a good amount of salvaged floor. I definitely think it is worth the trouble as the wood has so much more character and I have always got the wood for free. Here is my system:
1) Pull the nails through the back. I have tried lots of other ways and this seems fastest and least likely to damage the wood.
2) Sort the boards into three groups. Boards with tongues on the end (first to be laid), boards with both tongues and grooves (middle of the row), and boards with only grooves on the end (last ones down). Also sort them by length. Having them sorted speeds installation and reduces waste.
3) Lay the flooring. As I lay the flooring I clean off the tongue area by pulling a scraper along the face to clean out that gunk. The more you think about what that stuff is the more you may want to wear a mask and just do this step seperately. Also expect to use a floor jack or wedges to make warped boards fit tight.
4) Sand the floor. It will probably just be easier to sand them in place considering the time involved with talking the mill into running a bunch of crappy looking wood through their machines, hauling it back and forth, and paying for their sandpaper and time. You will have to sand it in place anyway so I figure the machine rental and a few of your hours would be cheaper. You will probably want to start sanding the floors at 45 degrees if they require a lot of evening out.
5) Finish the floor, it will look great.
Good luck.
thanks..could you address my questions though.
cutawooda dude,
Running it through a thickness planer will gum up the knives faster than you can say "chicken or beef". Same for the drum sander, your mill will probably turn you away, if for no other reason than dumping a lot of fine material, which is prone to spontaneous combustion, into their dust collection bin. Chemical stripper and a sharp Sandvik scraper is an option. Set the boards up on a bunch of saw horses and go at it.
Select red oak goes for $2.75- $3.00 in my neck. Couple hundred sq. ft. could be worth 500-600 bucks. It'll need sanded after it's installed anyway so don't worry about getting all the old finish off, focus on the T&Gs. By the way, what kind of condition are the T&Gs in? I can't imagine they could look very good after being pried off a floor.
Personally, I wouldn't have time for it... unless I was starving... which I was once... a long time ago. You'll score points with the Greenpeacers and PETA freaks here though...uh oh...I shoudn't have said that...
Maybe Greg or Fish can chime in on the slab application. That in itself can take a few days to explain.
Ditch
luv, I know what you mean.
Here is my predicament. I just moved from Houston up here to north Texas and I am trying to get a clientel going. I don't HAVE to do this job but ....
Here is the other thing. The woman I am working with on this job used to tech at the school house that is being torn down. She taught literally on this wood flooring. I mean just that. For 20 years she walked on these very boards that have beem ripped up. I am having a hard time trying to expalin to her that it is not cost effective. I went to the old school to try and get myself some old 1x12 and ran into a guy that is going throught my very situation. He has bigger machinery than me and he says the varnish asnd debris is burning his blades over and over. He told me that is isnt worth it. My client is out of town till Monday and I feel like I have to tell her that it might end up running $7.00 per foot just to install them. I am in a moral bind.
hey - I've done it (salvaged flooring) - doesn't make sense, but so what - it's a good story, teaching on it and all - I'd sort the boards into a pile of the best that represents enough to cover the area - clean the boards, at minimum, a hose and scrub brush, concentrating on the gunk on the edges that will keep the boards from fitting tightly together - scrapers, almost certainly - pressure wash maybe - perhaps take them to someone with a dip tank of stripper (be carefull - the hot lye tank might dis-color oak - methylene chloride (I think) is the cold strip that many use, might look into getting ahold of enough to do it yourself - carefully, of course) - I'd be leery of placing the oak against the concrete, if only becouse I have no experience - - also, I'm not sure that a 3/4" underlayment is enough to nail to - someone on the board should be able to address that -
anyway, get the boards clean enough to fit tightly together, lay em, then decide if you have to sand or not - I wouldn't unless it's necessary due to thickness variation - probably aim to slop a couple of thick coats of poly on it and brag about the patina that represents the history of the material -
be upfront with the client and find out what she expects to end up with, and charge accordingly -
ps - a small hand plane is a good tool to clean up edges and tongues
BTW, would you explain the 'moral bind' ? don't understand where that comes in - if it costs $7 to do what she wants, it's not your fault -
Explain the extra cost to the school teacher which no doubt will be considerable..if she haggles with you just agree....take it back to your shop and store it.Go out and buy new flooring and show her what a good job you did refinishing it...LOL....kidding dude!
Bottom line is that one can refinish anything.its all just labor intensive so you have to charge for it. When you get your price you can work comfortably. Bring it to your shop, crank the tunes and whistle while you work....cause your getting paid for it. All the suggestions here are great. If you had a router table and the right bits with "gum off" ( a spray can to clean your cutters) I think running the boards T & G "that need it" through the router would make life easy. Theres soooooo many variables......for one doing it my way its time consuming to set up and being sure the router bit is close to exact size. Spose like Ditch suggested, some scrapers and belt sander etc etc on the edges might be best........lay the planks down THEN sand them because you have to do that anyway Like I said if you get paid for your time them crank the tunes and whistle while you work (with a dust mask....... a new sound in whistling lol....kinda like a Blues album from 1940....a little Robert Johnson anyone?)
Have fun
BE well
NAmaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 8/9/2002 8:55:50 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Edited 8/9/2002 8:57:13 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)