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Hey guys I worked for a retired ag/shop teacher once.The money was there but I had to hear how I should be doing the job while he helped.I learned my lesson and that gut feeling is a definite go.
Phil
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SHGlaw
to have a lawyer... liar ...whatever, a self perpetuating suckerfish take advantage of a tradesman who is probably a beginner because any contractor worth his salt will avoid you guys like the plague simply reinforces the attitude about you guys .As far as tradesman being geniuses well... look at what site you are reading , bored with the lawyer liars ? Some day try thinking about all the bozo's like you that we have to deal with just so you can have the opportunity to enjoy beautiful things we create.
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Peter
Just to keep the bashing on track, a few points:
1. The contractor I sued had 25 years experience. He was no rookie, and the problems we had didn't come to pass because of experience.
2. The reason I read this site is that I restore old manor houses on top of being a lawyer. Frankly, I usually enjoy the restoration more than the law as I can see something at the end of the day.
3. Not all lawyers do what you think. I am a criminal defense lawyer; I don't sue people for a living.
4. Respect comes from the way a person conducts themselves, not because they call themselves carpenter, lawyer or indian chief. I've met plenty of carpenters who I would better trust than lawyers. But nobody gets a free ride. And like I said, I may have the ability to sue people just to get my rocks off, but I don't. The only thing that will get me to sue is fraud, and I have been careful for the most part in keeping the frauds off my jobs. If a guy does poor work, I just have it redone by someone else and don't use the guy again. I consider that my mistake for hiring the wrong guy.
5. The trades I use over and over again love working with me for three reasons: I pay. I trust them and leave them to do their work. I understand the limits of reality, and appreciate the difficulty of the work and the quality of execution.
6. And where I can, I will use a rookie to give a guy a chance to show what he can do. I don't do it so I can come back at him later and try to screw him for less than adequate work. I do it because everyone who is trying to go out on his own needs a chance. In fact, I've had a few who have seriously underbid their work, and when it was done, I paid them what they should have charged if they knew what they should have bid. I have never, except the one guy I sued, left anyone unpaid after a job. Ever. Hard to believe from a lawyer, but go figure.
Read these threads and see how many of you carp about each other's work; contractors bitching about subs shortnailing, plumbers breaking fixtures, framers out of square, etc. We can all find problems, but when you find someone who does something well, even a lawyer or a carpenter, you keep him close and appreciate his work. And you forgive him the occasional lapse, because no one's perfect.
So before you think you've got things all figured out with simple-minded phrases like the cadillac number, or that the customer's a lawyer, better to think again and take a look at the individual you're dealing with, and also remember that the individual is looking at you too.
SHG
*Sorry about getting all steamed up, but when you write about how lawyers (such as me) are sucking the blood out of contractors (such as you)to enjoy the beautiful things you create, it pisses me off. Granted, I don't have the skills to "create" what you do, but I don't hear anybody complaining about doing all that creating when I'm paying them for it. And whose money are you using to pay your mortgage, or for you truck, or whatever.Not that its all about money, but each side contributes what it can to get the job done, and each side needs the other side to exist if the job is going to get done. And when its done, we can all sit back and admire what you "created" and be satisfied that something better exists than was there at the beginning of the day.SHG
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to SHGlaw
Another guy who thinks he's paying for my truck, mortgage whatever. One of the biggest moron comments iv'e ever gotten from a customer was when i drove up in a brand new pickup that i had truly busted my but to get and the first thing out of his mouth was "here comes the big shot contractor with the truck i'm paying for". I'm still waiting for the bum to finish paying me. I'd hire a lawyer to go after him but the fee would be more than is owed. Aside from that you have made some fair points. Point taken. Have a nice day and welcome to the thread.
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Peter
Do I detect a softening of views? Hey, maybe we all can live together and make out better with cooperation than by pigeonholing each other and trying to blame all our problems on someone else. And don't get all touchy about who paid for your truck. You paid for it, and you earned the money and can do with it as you please.
You raise another interesting aspect when you write about the people who first bust your hump, then don't pay you for the work. It sucks getting stiffed, doesn't it. While most lawyers will represent you for a contingent fee (a percentage of the recovery) in such cases, so it doesn't cost you anything up front, suing isn't really the point. It maks for lousy public relations and drains the life out of you when all you want to do is do your job and get your fee.
My sense usually is that there are two kinds of people who don't pay. The ones who never intended to pay, and who go through life that way. You can find these people by using a service that allows you to check on people's credit history (i.e. DBS, USSeach). Better to spend the $50 to find out up front if your going to lose $50G.
The other group is the ones that never made the personal connection with the contractor, and therefore feel that they have the "right" not to pay. This is much more difficult, because it likely didn't have to be that way. This is the result of bad relationships, and depends on the contractor's realizing that customers work hard for the money that they are spending on the job, and need to feel that they are worthy of some respect and consideration.
Before you disagree with that, remember that it doesn't matter if you think that they are unreasonable, just that they actually believe it to be true, and that the feelings are hard and sincere.
The point here is that anyone who has a chip on their shoulder is asking for a problem. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, and makes your life more difficult than it has to be.
BTW, if you go way back on this thread, before Sean changed it over, you'll find that I've been here a long time. Just haven't had time to post for a while, but I've been home with the flu for the past few days and decided to see what was happening here again.
SHG
*If you're sounting wc claims and pay claims, i'm 1 for 5. And not complaining. How can you fight a wc claim, if the lawyers working for you don't care, they're only after a paycheck, and they get payed either way. And when I'm interviewing a tradesperson, I concentrate on his skill, not his conversation. I would hire a moron that is skilled!Blue
*Blue, if the lawyers working for you don't care, then why don't you get better lawyers. You talk about concentrating on the skill of a tradesperson, why is it different with lawyers? Some are better than others, just like in any job.That's the point. Lawyers are no more interchageable than carpenters. No one is. My bet is that you would feel better, and do better, if you got the chip off your shoulder and figured out that lawyers, doctors and carpenters all come in a whole spectrum of varieties, ranging from great to awful, and its up to the client/customer/user to figure out which one is right for you.I wish you better luck, and hope it changes your point of view.SHG
*Just got around to reading this thread."Criminal lawyer",thanks a bunch, BB
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I was reading some of the posts below, and I noticed several references to "recognizing Dr. Hell before you start the job".
SO what are some of the ways you guys do this ? How can you tell right from the start that a customer is just going to be a HUGE pain in the neck ?
I guess I know a couple - If a customer brings in a $200,000 print, and wants you to find a way to build it for $150,000, you can bet they'll be pinching every penny for the whole job.
The worst job I was ever involved in was for an architect. He not only wanted to supervise construction, but wanted to HELP on the job, too. That meant he was there every minute of every day, questioning every little thing that went on.
I'm really curious what other things are red flags for you when dealing with potential customers.
*Ron, sign in a friend's truck repair shop:LABOR RATE:Basic Labor: $25.00/hourYou Watch: $35.00/hourYou Help: $45.00/hourSeems like a concept.
*I had a builder that wanted to help once. I told him to grab the 8 screw shanked and start nailing his deck. And I told him if it squeaks, don't call me!He left quickly!Blue
*Ron, I had a lady who couldn't make up her mind on the design. Then she couldnt decide after it was done.She cured me of my desire to serve!Blue
*First sign, An Architecht who wanted to help.Other items; MY brother in law etc. said it should take this long or cost this much.I want to help.I will buy all the materials from the home center, all you have to do is show up do it.I will have my lawyer review the contract & make suggeations.If the house will be way over improved for the neighbor hood.If I see evidence of alcohol or drug abuse or domestic violence.Ask what they do for a living. I want to know they can afford this.THE #1 METHODIf you get a bad felling, DON"T DO IT!!!!!!!!
*Ron,EXCELLENT topic.I will ponder this at work all day,but off the top of my head I would say......1.trust your gut instinct. 2.avoid any type of engineer,they think they know everything 3.avoid lawyers (who needs the potential hassels of a professional hasseller)4.Any one who tells you about their last 4 home repairs and how nothing was done right. You can be sure yours will not be done "right" either and that Jesus and Joseph could not carpenter to this customers satisfaction either.5. anyone who will not pay a deposit.6. anyone who tells you they already have "several estimates" and the estimates are "unreasonable". 7.any one who has a contractor there actually giving an estimate when you show up to give yours .8. anyone who asks for a senior citizen discount. my favorite customers are blue collar working class people. They are generally very honest and pay promptly. Also school teachers,accountants,most doctors and insurance agents. I really trust my gut instinct because I figure life is too short to spend it surounded by disagreeable people. How do the rest of you filter out problem customers? Good Luck ,Stephen
*Retired tool and die makers, engineers, brain surgeons, lawyers, ladies with thick German accents, Alzhiemers patients. Each of these I have worked with, each of these have a story which would be a seperate post themselves, all negative.Oh yeah, old guys that talk incessantly and loudly. You know, busybodies. I really can't tell before hand. One of my suppliers told me I'm too nice to be in business, I trust everyone. I do tend to take people at their word. I've been thinking about having potential customers fill out a psychological questionaire.
*Ron,I'm the guy that posted the one about Dr. Hell. I also refered to him as Dr. Amaze-me. I've been in business serving customers for only three years, so my horrible experiences are few. And inexpensive.What I've learned the most, is exactly what Ron Rehm said: Trust Your instinct. If you get a bad feeling, don't do it!In the relatively few customers I have had, I've worked in almost every situation that these guys are talking about, but the only real bad experience was Dr. Jerk...(Joe F, click here)I let my cousin (whom I hadn't seen since I was about 12) and his wife help me remove the back wall and roof of their dilapidated 100 yr old farm house and build a big addition in it's place. A potentially emotional experience for a neophyte. He was fantastic. He read books about framing and actually drew the walls at night so that he'd know what to do the next day. He had questions, but they were always good ones as he sort of understood what he was talking about.A guy that owned a music store who wanted me to design, draw and build a small laundry room addition. He loved everything that I did and paid me with a smile on his face.I built a garage for a friend once who wanted to help in order to save money. And he could hammer nails pretty good! I told him at the end of the first day that I was right on schedule. He hadn't slowed me down a bit. He nailed off plywood by hand for the remainder of the project . It worked out wonderfully (although I like Blue's line: "if it squeaks, don't call me")And get this:My girlfriend (a faux painting specialist) is redoing every roomin a house owned by her step brother and sister-in-law WHO ARE BOTH LAWYERS. (!)As it turns out, there seem to be so few tradespeople who are worth a darn here in Nashville that even lawyers are happy. In fact, they'd been screwed by almost every sub that's come through that place, and they didn't complain at all.You can avoid most cheapo's by asking what their budget is. It seems that if you do a good job and are frank yet polite with your customers, they'llrespect you. If your prospects don't treat you with respect when you meet them, you might as well avoid them. They're not going to be satisfied. Make up a "psychological questionaire" and work it into your initial meetings -- qualify your clients. And charge extra if they want to watch,Dan Morrison
*Nice post Dan, I can see you've been doing your html homework.You made a good point about budget. Many potetial clients will squawk when you try to set a budget, but remember, this is your chance to screen the potential client.If they want a cadilac on a yugo budget, RUN!I/ve had good experiences with helper's too, but mostly trouble.One common problem is when they want to do the painting. Invariably, they want you to leave the trim off, while they stain and finish it. It's hard to tell diy's that there is a lot more to painting than slopping on a coat or two.Blue
*Hey guys I worked for a retired ag/shop teacher once.The money was there but I had to hear how I should be doing the job while he helped.I learned my lesson and that gut feeling is a definite go. Phil
*This is too funny. Last weekend, I was doing some work for an owner-builder, putting mortises for boxes into a log home. The electrician and owner decided where the box was to go, the height, and then the owner kerfed the logs with a chain saw, and even drilled out the log for wire. I put in the mortise, the electrician did his thing, and five minutes later while we were admiring our work, he said it HAD to go on the other side of the door. For some strange reason, he didn't laugh nearly as hard as we did...particularly when we told him how much it would cost us to move it.
*Philip brings up a very good point. What happens to your schedule when a layman "helps"? This results in lost revenue/lower wages for you, not to mention the increased "hassle factor". The irony is, one of the reasons why the owner "helps" is to save money--hahahaha--but the mere fact of his being there results in more expense to him.
*I'm kind of with Rich in that I trust everyone and am too nice for my own good. I take people at there word because I want them to do the same with me. Ever notice the people who are always telling to watch out for this or that weasel activity are themselves weasels and are so worried about getting screwed because they're always thinking of ways to screw others. That is not universal and I will exclude present company, figuring most here probably learn the hard way as I'm doing now. Sincerely, A Growing Cynic
*b No matter how jaded I am it's never quite enough!!!
*I've been on both sides of this fence. It doesn't matter what the customer does for a living, it matters whether or not they understand what you do for a living. When the customer doesn't understand what he is getting for his money, or isn't clear what he wants for his money, nothing is going to meet his expectations.But the other side is contractors who promise the world to get the job, then spend the rest of the job making excuses why he can't deliver.BTW, the worst line I've ever heard is "you can't get a cadillac for the price of a Yugo." A job well done is a job well done, regardless of price. The cost has nothing to do with the workmanship, and if you're not charging enough to do the job right, or you're getting into a job you're not sure you can perform, then you shouldn't be doing it.One more thing, I am a lawyer, and the only time I have ever sued a contractor was a guy who lied to me through his teeth. I can understand that a man can't hang a door any better than he can hang a door, but I can't stomach a liar. Just be straight and if you sense the customer isn't seeing things the same as you, take a pass.SHG
*SHFlaw, The mere fact that you don't know/understand what the term "you can't get a cadillac for the price of a yugo" is proof that you probably think that you can!You are exactly the type of homeowner that we contractors are to avoid! You can't stomach a liar, and yet you deal with lawyers and judges on a regular basis! That's funny!The tradesman probably did lie to you, but did you tell him you were a lawyer before you started? Silence can be worse than lieing sometimes!For the record, I wouldn't offer my services to any lawyer, including my own!Stop in to a cadillac dealer, and offer them 10,000$ for the shiny caddy in the showroom! I'm sure some enlightenment will take place!Blue
*Poor Blue. Small minds find comfort in silly expressions.Lawyers can be great customers or miserable customers, just like carpenters who say incredibly stupid things can be good carpenters or piss poor carpenters. Obviously, nobody's going to hire you because you're a genius, and yet you may well be a competent carpenter. You never know.But your attitude still is poor. The failing of your cadillac analogy is that the cadillac dealer can always turn down the offer, as can you. The problem occurs when some dope accepts the offer (say you need to buy another six-pack) and promise to deliver a cadillac. Then who's wrong.About the only occupational group more hated than lawyers is contractors. Ever wonder why? I'll tell you, sue a contractor and you'll always win, because you'll never get a jury that isn't full of people who got screwed by a contractor. Certainly sounds like you lost more than your share of lawsuits. Don't blame the lawyers, blame your attitude.SHG