Recreate decrotive railing on flat roof
I have job to build a decrotive railing system on a 1 story roof. This is the family room of a 3 story dutch colonial in New jersey. The railing system is to be done in cedar 4 x 4 posts, ripped down 2 x 4 rails and 2 x 2 to create the diagonal pattern the home owner has shown me. The railing is not a problem. I am look for hints and techniques for securing the 4 x 4 post into the roof. I should also say I am having a new 15 year rubber roof installed prior to build the rail system. And the posts will be flashed into the new roof. I am going to inspect the roof more closely for soft spots where the old railing was. I have not seen any pictures of the railing, but it was most likely removed when the roof was redone.
Any thought or hints or recomendations Greatly Appreciated
Heintz45 dougheintz@aol.com
Replies
The only way I attatch rail posts to a roof is directly to the joists and box beams. Cut the roof decking back far enough to expose, and work comfortably with, the roofs framing members. I like to mortise the posts base so that it sits flush with box beam. Block around base to lock it in and then carriage bolt it all together. If a joist is close by, send a couple carriage bolts through it as well.
Best of luck!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I thank you for the advise, this will be a great way if not the best way to secure the posts. I will have to let you know after {wed 6-26-02 } I lay the job out and open up the roof. Thanks for your time and thoughts.
Heintz45
Doug, it may be a moot point now given that I see from the date you put in
your post that your were going to tackle this railing project earlier today
but I mention it anyway for future reference and discussion.The way that we
attach our posts for a decorative railing like you are describing is different
than the way Jaybird has described.
If at all possible we DON’T attach our post to the roof deck or roof deck
framing.
I've done a little bit of forensic analysis on the exterior railings I've worked
on over the years and on one of the first railing that I ever worked on four
of the roof deck ceiling joists that the original railing post were attached
to had to be repaired because where the deck joists were attached to the railing
post moisture moving down the post and sitting between the post and joist had
rotted the joist right through. We pulled up all the roof decks sheathing (
and replaced it) and sistered new joists to the old ones but I learned a few
lessons from working that project that I've applied to how we try and do things
today.
If you can avoid penetrating the roof membrane in anyway AVOID IT!
If you have to penetrate the roof membrane but can avoid penetrating the
roof deck AVOID IT TOO!
The railing roof deck railing on the project below (not the same
project as the project I described above) is not attached to the roof deck anywhere
at all. Being wrap-around-shaped (see the plan view below) the railing is attached
to the exterior walls of the house by concealed hanger bolts typically used
to connect railing fitting but the posts really just sit on the roof deck and
are held down by the weight of the whole railing assembly. Well almost...
View Image
Actually each of the 4x4 posts on thins project has a 3/8"x16"x16"
plywood "foot" fastened to the post by 4 stainless steel screws. The
foot is then "glued" to the roof membrane (single ply miodified-bitumen)
with roofing cement and then a 2'x2' piece of of the membrane was slipped over
the top of the post and then torch heat welded down. The foot keeps the railing
from wobbling and it could have been screwed down (although on this project
it wasn't) to stiffen it further. To keep the whole thing straight the top rails
were made by laminating two 1x4s together with epoxy and staggering the lap
joints so there was one 18' one-piece rail returning to the house and two one-piece
continuous 40' rail sections one along the the other wrapping around the side
of the house and ending in front with another 20 return to the house. See the
plan view sketch below.
View Image
Since the roof deck was covered with gravel after the whole thing was done
the hump around the bottom of the posts was masked by the gravel. When the roof
deck needs to be flush we make the foot piece the same as the roof deck sheathing
and then cut the sheathing out where the post needs to be and plop the post
down flush. When we do do our post flush like that they are penetrating the
membrane so we use a flashing and construction technique that I picked up reading
an article in Fine HomeBuilding years ago by Scott McBride entitled Railing
Against the Elements (Issue #70 Oct/Nov 1991).
The key thing I picked up from that article was the flashing detail around
a post and then slipping another box post over the first that serves as counter
flashing to the base flashing. I've seen that same detail in another FHB article
although the name and issue of the article escapes me right now.
All this is not to say that we never pass through the roof membrane with our
posts or never fasten our posts to the framing but we do try to avoid that if
at all possible and if we can engineer an alternative solution. Each place a
post penetrates the membrane represents a potential leak and each place a post
passes through the roof deck represents a potential for setting up a channel
for any leak to follow into the insulated ceiling space so we try very hard
to avoid those potential problems.
There are some other variations on the technique I've described above that
we've used in other various situations and conditions but I think that's enough
for now to illustrate my point and our technique.
One other plus to our methods versus attaching the posts to the joists and
other framing is it's a major labor time-saver too which can add to your bottom
line. If you do have to attach the posts to framing to get the rigidity you
need I would suggest you keep the number of penetrations to a bare minimum.
Good luck and be sure to tell us what you find regarding how the old railing
was secured to the structure.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Jerry,
Thank you for your response. I also should tell you I am a fan of your responses to other people like the gentleman from texas with his crown molding. I feel I am learning alot or gaining alot of insight from reading your texts. I work solo mostly but have a friend who is solo that we trade days, or pay each other for the day out right. We each have our own Lib. and WC insurance, enjoy just working and not having to think those days on one another projects. Its just easier to have a someone who knows alittle bit about carpentry than to try to comunicate to a helper when I am trying to figure it out as I go along.
I may have failed you. I opened the roof and found 2 layers of rubber over a copper oringal roof. The original railing was only about 22" tall and had been 2 or 3 coarses of clappboard. I did not want to open any more than I had to. So I gave myself a solid substaight. Did I mention that on Thursday June 27th it rained like heck. Tar paper and a couple of tarps kept it bone dry. I am getting way ahead of myself.
I installed an 8" rip of 3/4" plywood around the perimeter. My roofing contractor used asphalt shingles to feather in a couple of spots. Then installed a 15 year rubber roof, self adhesive type. I used type II silicone under each 4x4 post with galvinized screws counter sunk on each side. Manufactured 13 sections of Chinese Chippendale railing and installed it. Then installed 3" right angle brackets to 4x4 posts to sure them up. Then siliconed those to the roof and filled all screw holes with Min Wax exterior wood filler.
Home owners are very happy with the finished product. I have some digital photos, I will try to attach them, but I usually rely on my wife for help with the computer, spelling and other techical things I never studied in my 5 years of college. Thats 3 colleges, 3 Majors, 5 years no degrees. And thats going back to the late 80's and early 90's.
Thanks again
Doug Heintz
Heintz General Contracting, LLC
sorry about spelling, last time I tried spell check it deleted this entire mess.
I will post pics later
Edited 7/3/2002 6:54:27 PM ET by Heintz45
Your very welcome Doug. I try to contribute when I can but it's tough at times
finding the time. There are only so many hours in a day and I try to have a
real life too.
Don't worry about failing me. Ya live and ya learn. I've got a project I did
just a few years ago building a small
koi pond with waterfall inside a pet store that cost me three times what
I contracted the job for to get it right so it wouldn't leak! That's one of
my guys in the picture looking at it wondering "why the hell is this damn
thing still leaking". Ya see water scares me. But what I learned from that
job has certainly helped me since then. A hole the size of a pin can put a lot
of water inside a house under certain conditions. Or a pet shop for that matter.
You mentioned flashing in your original post but made no mention of it in you
latest post. Did you run any flashing (or roofing material) up your posts at
all? If you did how did that detail workout?
It sounds to me like you didn't go down through the roof deck (below the sheathing)
with your posts so that part works for me. Sometimes you just have to do it,
but aside from the fact that it's damn labor intensive to do it it also has
that "straw" or "wicking"effect I described before. So that
sounds good to me.
The 3/4 ply you mention, is what the posts sit on top of? I'm thinking that's
what you might have done so the bottom of the post at the connection were elevated
above the rest of the roof surface? That's good thinking but while what I think
you are are describing to me sounds like it might be okay I still have some
concerns. The screws actually penetrate the roofing material to hold the post
down? And your looking for the type II silicone caulk to seal the joint and
essentially for a gasket correct? If that is the case due to the seasonal expansion
and contraction of the wood one of those pin hole type gaps could develop and
if the roof ever had any standing water or saturated wet snow on it then it
could move through a hole like that. You might want to "weld on" a
little roofing material as a flashing up the base of the posts and inch or two
as added protection. Tough call not being sure exactly what you're describing
to us here. That's why I think this digital picture revolution is so great!
Hey remember me saying water scares me? Snow and ice scare me more. The freeze
thaw thing and capillary action possible sucking water in and around your post
base gasket is what I would worry about.
I may also have been confused by what you mean as far as what a "rubber"
roof is. . I know a lot of builder and even roofer will call a single modified
bitumen roof a "rubber" roof. To me that's not "rubber"
it's "single modified bitumen". I'm thinking rubber roofs have the
heat welded seams and floats above the roof deck and are attached around the
perimeter of the membrane. I'm certainly not a roofer but since I have to work
with roofs for some of what we do I try to understand as much as I can about
them.
Re: "Then installed 3" right angle brackets
to 4x4 posts to sure them up. Then siliconed those to the roof and filled
all screw holes with Min Wax exterior wood filler." Are
the angle brackets installed opposite of each other, one on either side of the
post? I would have screwed them to the posts and not the roof since that would
be sort of redundant. The silicone caulk would have "glued" them down
well enough for the function they were serving. I guessing that's what you were
saying.
For what it's worth of all the things you told us here what impressed me most
and think was the smartest thing you said was regarding your working relationship
with your friend. "Its just easier to have a someone
who knows alittle bit about carpentry than to try to comunicate to a helper
when I am trying to figure it out as I go along." That's was real
good thinking in my estimation. Plus just reading what you are trying to communicate
here I can see you are problem solving as you work and having another experienced
hand and voice nearby to bounce ideas off of can really be a help when you are
figuring it out for the first time. God do I know that one!
Looking forward to the seeing the photos.
PS- Finally got that pond to stop leaking. It's going on 4 years now and the
problem was finally solved and all our other ponds are holding up well too.
Problem was I under-engineered it and didn't really understand the erosive power
of falling water at the time but that's a whole other story I guess.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Thanks again. As soon as my lovely wife gets a chance to help me with loading jpegs and what ever I am doing wrong with photos, I , we shall post them. She is the real brains behind Heintz General Contracting, LLC.
Jerry not to get to personal but how big is your company? I mean, "coi ponds" ? Do you even use subs or all in house specialists. I use roofing, dry wall, plumbing, electrical and if the job is big enough demo and insulation subs.
Hopefully when photos are posted you not too scared. I did penetrate the roof with screws diagonally {toe nailed but for screws does not sound corect} into roof while 4x4 sit in silicone to coat screw as it penetrates roof. That is on both sides right and left. The single metal bracket is behind or blind to the street. Hopefully you can see in the photos.
Thanks,
Doug
Well Doug it looks like the railing came out looking real nice however the
concern that I mentioned earlier about the screws actually penetrating the roofing
material to hold the posts down and now the angle brackets is still there. You
could luck out with it but the weather in NJ is not really any better than it
is here is Westchester's during the winter so you may want to consider heat
welding a flashing boot made of single modified bitumen to cover and seal the
brackets and the base of the post. I could make you up a pattern drawing of
just what I'm talking about if you'd like. I've also got a couple of ideas of
how you could put the idea of adding on the boots at no charge to your client
without raising any concerns on thier part.
"Jerry not to get to personal but how big is your
company? I mean, "coi ponds" ? Do you even use subs or
all in house specialists."-- Actually to do the wide varied mix
of stuff that we do we have to use mostly outside (external) specialists and
trades. My background and history is in theatre design and technolgy so I pretty
much applied the business models form there to how I approach building and remodeling.
The koi pond projects are esentially just scenery right? Here's
another one that came out looking pretty good. I'm in the midst of remodeling
our website so that link may change in a few days. We are very much what the
business wags refer to as a "virtual company". I also "partner"
closely with some other outfits so sometimes we can at times look fairly large
to the end user consumer.
However as I hinted at in another discussion here, Who Will Build the Future,
"the
company I envisioned that I would like to build is a company of specialists"
and I'm metaphorically getting set to reboot my company as just that. More about
that soon I guess. So Doug where in NJ are you?
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Jerry
My wife and I graduated from Westfield High School, N.J. A town of about 30K residence. That is about 30 miles east of Manhattan, an hour by train. My bussiness letter head is still based in Westfield, a P O box while we a re looking for our first fixer upper house of our own. We are living in Fanwood N. J. the next town over from Westfield for now. Both towns are in Union County.
And thanks again, I would definately like to hear about the post flashing.
Thanks
Doug Heintz
Doug I'll email you a sketch regarding the flashing in a day or two. I'm still catching up from a long weekend. I'm about 45 miles north of Grand Central Terminal-42nd Street. I might have a project up on 82nd and Fifth Ave. if your interested, I’ll let you know if it actually does materialize.
Profit is like oxygen,
food, water, and blood for the body; they are
not the point of life, but without
them there is no life. —Jim Collins
& Jerry Poras—Built to Last
Here's another vote for leaving the roof alone. This had PT 2x and 4x wrapped with Trim Tec plastic trim board. The rail was all treated stock. 2x was tapconed to the brick...then wrapped......the railing was hung on angle brackets........the 2 forward posts simply set on post bracket feet...to hold the PT off the rubber.....all rail was attached to the 4x with angle brackets...and the weight holds it down just fine.
If it were bigger....I'd have added a cross brace to the bottom posts...out of sight from the street. Jeff
She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!