Red Rosin vs builders felt under floorng
DelawareDave61
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I contracted to have a Bruce solid oak floor (3/4″ x 2 1/4″ strips) installed and discovered at the end of the day that my contractor is using Red Rosin paper instead of builders felt. Not being a pro, I checked out Red Rosin paper on the web and found out that it is marginal at best; builders felt is far better in the long-term. This is especially true because the new floor is covering a room that is partially in an addition and partially in the original house, and the addition is about 1/8″ higher than the original floor on one side of the room. Builders felt would have smoothed out the stresses on the flooring crossing that boundary.
He’s about 1/3 of the way through the job. My question is: now what? Am I making a big deal over nothing? Should I tell him to stop everything? As far as I can see, what he’s doing meets Bruce’s requriements, so he’s likely to insist that he has every right to do what he’s doing. Therefore I expect that he would insist that we pay for any new wood that’s needed if the wood is taken out.
Any suggestions?
Replies
No paper will smooth out a 1/8" difference in height. That's wishful thinking.
A belt sander would blend it nicely or they make a floor filler material. Some flooring guys lay shingles to blend things. There are lots of ways but one layer of tar paper isn't going to do anything.
Red rosin paper is made for exactly this and some people don't like the smell of felt.
Red rosin has been the choice under flooring for decades. Unless you specified builder's felt in lieu of the red rosin paper, I think you are being unreasonable. If you want felt, you should pay the differnce.
I wouldn't bother.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
WOW!!!
do you poke every hornet's nest that you get near???
Let the felt / rosin paper debate rage on...
Red Rosin paper is marginal at best;
yup
builders felt is far better in the long-term.
yup..
and the addition is about 1/8" higher than the original floor on one side of the room. Builders felt would have smoothed out the stresses on the flooring crossing that boundary.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"do you poke every hornet's nest that you get near???"LMAO - I had the same thought
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he said there's other Q's he had....
can't wait to see what the day's rowe will be.....
life is never dull here....
ROAR!!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yes, you are making a big deal over nothing.
If he were using no paper at all, that would be a big deal.
there are sometimes some advantages to using tarpaper instead of resin paper, but there are also disadvantages.
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About the only difference in rosin and felt when it comes to hardwood flooring is personal preference.
The 1/8" difference in floor height should be addressed.....but felt rather than rosin aint the answer.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
There are real differences between rosin paper and tar paper in this instance.The primary one being that rosin paper will eventually turn to dust (I've seen 20 to 30 years, but I really don't know all the conditions that contribute). Tar paper will out last rosin paper by a great deal. However, rosin paper may well last long enough.But also tar paper, in the event of a fire will burn better. I think that is pretty minor, but short term, smell can also be an issue.
I installed strip oak flooring over 30 lb. felt using radient floor heat.
smell has never been a problem. House was built in '91
"smell has never been a problem."Yeah but you probably douse yourself with tar flavored after shave! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You obviously didn't look in the Picture of yourself folder.
I haven't shaved since Oct. '72 while living on the Eisel River in Holland- working in a salvage lumber outfit.
I've seen rosin paper under 90 year old floors in perfect condition.I've never heard of this debate between the two. In fact, I've never seen felt under a wood floor. What benefits would felt have over rosin paper?
More cushioning for less chance of squeaks, mainly
More cushioning for more movement=less squeaks?That doesn't make sense. Squeaks are from wood moving across nails that don't move. Why would you want the wood to move more? I have always understood the paper to help even out the moisture coming from the basement traveling through the cracks in the subfloor to help prevent cupping.
wood riding on nails is opnly one of at least three reasons why wood floors an squeak. Wood/wood is one that the paper barrier prevents
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enough of movement between the finish floor and substrate and rosin wears thru...
had a thought...
remember the diaoginal 1by sub floors???
I have found the rosin on that type of subfloor fails misaerably...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Let's see... 1x floors are where I have encountered 90% of rosin paper. So wear through. I still don't think the paper helps much for floor squeaking. Seems you get more of a creak from the wood moving against wood and the ear piercing squeak from wood moving against nails.
Shouldn't you be putting felt in all the grooves between boards as well? This whole argument seems like a waste of effort.
yur right...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
red rosin is traditional... it's a slip sheet
i don't have any problem with using it
but we use 15 # felt mostly.... it has an additional advantage of being a vapor reducer.. so it will help marginally over damp basements and crawls
as far as the original question... the red rosin doesn't indicate a sub-par install'' more a personal preference
if you wanted felt, you should have spec'd feltMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"f you wanted felt, you should have spec'd felt"Exactly! And if you want to switch in the middle of the installation, get out your checkbook and let your dollars do your talking. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Once again, I'm going to show my newbie-ness. How'd you send your message to all instead of just reply to one person?
What I wanted to do is thank everyone for the advice. You may not agree with each other, but you made it possible for me to explain the pros and cons of Red Rosin and builders felt to my wife well enough to make her think I knew what I was talking about. ;^)
Here's what brought on the question: A friend of my wife who has been involved in construction came over, saw the 1/3-done floor with Red Rosin sticking out, told us that Red Rosin was a big mistake and that builders felt should have been used, and that the builder was a cheapskate for using it. Also, I knew about the height difference between the existing and new floor, but wasn't there to see how the contractor dealt with it, and this friend went on to talk about how the builders felt would have handled this better. Now it's the word of my wife's friend against the contractor's judgement.
You guys saved the day. The Rosin Paper's fine. I off-handedly asked the contractor about how he handled the height difference in the flooring and he said he shimmed it. In other words, this whole thing was a big deal over nothing. And that's what I was hoping.
As for the other problem IMERC mentioned, Splintergroupie already helped me out. Somebody told me she'd start growing on me! The problem was that when the contractor brought in the 3/4" thick Bruce strips, he said that he was going to let it adjust to the room for a few days and then install it. I mentioned this to a friend in the trade and he said it should sit for three weeks. Big difference. Mentioned this to Splintergroupie while we were having our Islam vs Christianity vs who knows what smackdown, and she suggested I get a moisture meter. Well, I bought one today; a Timber Check from Lee Valley tools; should be coming in a few days.
This sounds great, except that with the flooring two-thirds done, the train has already left the station. The flooring ended up sitting here 10 days before installation started. So why bother getting the moisture meter?
1) I can at least get a sense of whether I should expect trouble or not.
2) This is just phase one of the flooring project. This summer, we're putting hardwood floors in the main hallway and the kitchen. This time I'll be ready. Think I'm going to specify builder's felt too, just for kicks. Might even do it myself, since my business's busy season is during the school year.I'm sure that there are other issues. If you want to give a heads-up on anything, either for this time around or the summer, please let me know. But, for what you've already done, THANK YOU.
Edited 1/3/2008 10:40 pm ET by DelawareDave61
Edited 1/3/2008 10:43 pm ET by DelawareDave61
Ah-Ha! The infamous old "Know-it-all friend of the owner" syndrome!That and half-baked TV DIY shows causes more trouble on this earth than the tension between Arab and Jew ever thought of
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Made for some interesting dinner conversation.... ;^)
"That and half-baked TV DIY shows causes more trouble on this earth than the tension between Arab and Jew ever thought of"
-- You wanna issue a fatwa on that?
we'd like to...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I prefer red rosin paper unless there is some compelling reason for a vapor barrier like if the floor is directly above a damp crawl space (which should be fixed anyway). Here is why I prefer rosin paper: if there is a plumbing leak in the house the red builders felt will hold the water up against the hardwood floor and it will almost never dry out. With the rosin paper, if there is a leak, there is some drying down through the subfloor, the water will not necessarily run directly under the hardwood, and will have a much better chance of leaking down through the subfloor - with the caveat that most hardwood I get installed is on the first floor of the house. Rosin paper helps to prevent squeaks just as good as felt paper. Really though, either one is acceptable.
Regarding the acclimation period, some of depends if the house in under construction and unheated at the time of the install, under construction and heated or if it is a complete and lived in house. The later requiring the longest acclimation period.
Re. acclimation......you should be OK with the 10 days you got.
I personally prefer at least two full weeks.
Be careful with your summer install. That wood is going to show up good and wet with the seasonal humidity. If you don't give it enough time before install, you're gonna have some pretty big gaps come next winter.
Best of luck!
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
>>More cushioning for more movement=less squeaks?>>That doesn't make sense. Squeaks are from wood moving across nails that don't move. Why would you want the wood to move more?>>I have always understood the paper to help even out the moisture coming from the basement traveling through the cracks in the subfloor to help prevent cupping.My understanding is that the paper/felt also (primarily?) acts a slip plan between two layers of wood which will also cause squeaks if they aren't separated.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
I don't know what conditions he's speaking of either. Here in the northeast I've torn out dozens of floors, hundreds of years old, where the rosin paper held up just fine.
The reason for the paper is to minimize the squeaking of floor boards rubbing subflooring.
Any imagined benefit of felt over rosin would be better addressed by focusing on alleviating whatever "condition" the felt is supposed to be attentioning in the first place.
I'll leave this debate to those with grander imaginations regarding the benefits of one over the other.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I know of exactly one circumstance when felt is preferred...but you are unlikely to encounter it unless you are a nut like me...
Under a wide plank (antique) floor, where is a lot of seasonal movement, felt doesn't show as much as rosin paper in the winter...
These are the floors that the 300-year-old house is supposed to have, but they were covered in 1895 with oak strips.
The national assoication of flooring manufactures used to have the installation manual posted on the web. Now you need to buy them.But when they where free the only underlayment that they speced was felt paper..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
with a floor like that Rosin wouldn't last at all either...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I've never seen felt under a wood floor.
don't get out much...
do ya???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I guess they didn't use it my area much. I've pulled a lot of wood floor and it's either direct to the subfloor or rosin paper. (And once direct to the joists.)I'm not interested in debating something that make absolutely no difference. If its coming out of century old floors that are in fine shape then its fine for me. I trust my installer.
They used red rosin paper when my house was built in 1913, and where I've had to make repairs to the flooring the stuff appears to still be in good shape. They also used red rosin paper underneath the cedar shingle siding on the exterior of the house.
I've never heard of this debate between the two
there were several and they pale the best of the poliive from down stairs...
What benefits would felt have over rosin paper?
all over better performance and longjevity...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have removed rosin and tarppaer both as old as 120 years and never seen any of either turned to dust
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>The primary one being that rosin paper will eventually turn to dust (I've seen 20 to 30 years, but I really don't know all the conditions that contribute). Tar paper will out last rosin paper by a great deal. However, rosin paper may well last long enough.I've found red rosin in good shape in 100 year old houses: a bit brittle perhaps, but still functioning.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
Red rosin paper turn to dust? Don't know how long the stuff has been around, but my 1890's home had it under the maple floor i presume to be original (no other nail holes in original fir subfloor). When i tore it out to clean up and reinstall it was in excellent condition.
And others have found it to be dust after 30 or 40 years. Like I said, I'm sure it depends on individual conditions.
the only difference I've seen is when the house sits over a very wet crawl space and there is no vapor barrier to begin with. the felt would be the last line of defense for the flooring. rosin paper will not stop moisture mitigagation like felt
if thats not the case then you're wasting brain cells
I do quite a few floors and don't use either of your options; there is a product we call "Triple thirty" which is an asphalt emulsion sandwiched between a top and bottom layer of Kraft.
It lays flat and clean with no wrinkles on the edges, most all building suppliers and floor distributers carry it, at least here in the West.
500 sq. ft. to the roll.....about $14 a roll.
Your 1/8" height difference is too much....follow one of the posted corrective measures.
I'll throw another fly in the ointment... I just had an oak floor laid and the installers used Fiji film for underlayment. It's sort of a plasticky stuff, very slippery. Installer says his suppliers don't even sell rosin or tarpaper anymore.About 2 weeks after install, the floor starting clicking like I was walking on potatoe chips.I kept looking to see if my shoes were untied and the lace tips were hitting the floor. The installers came by and said "Yup, it's clicking."They'd also laid the floor next door, went there, and it was clicking too...uh, oh... they'd also laid the one next to that... it has one coat of finish on it and it's not clicking... hope I'm not tearing the cabinets and trim out<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
You should be ashamed for hiring it done instead of doing it yourself.
Now you see what you have done.
be how could you not expect to hear a click from film anyhow.
Let the thunder crack and the waves roar, we're going on.
So bubble wrap would be a BAD thing? Huh?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I was thinking of grace ice & water ... sticky side up. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Im going with 15lb felt white lines up
at least they didn't use newspaper...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
so where did the OP go???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
DelawareDave61
My preferance is red rosing for several reasons.. If I thought that builders felt were better I would use it in a heart beat.
I would have figured you for a kevlar man under your floors.
dug
I would have figured you for a kevlar man under your floors.
Kevlar no, maybe tinfoil....<g>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.drawingwithlight.smugmug.com
Using paper is a hold over from the days when subfloors were done with boards. The paper prevents air infiltration and dust working through, not much else except a clean surface to work on. Felt smells bad for a long time, especially if there is radiant heat in the floor. Technically, no paper is needed over sheet good subfloors. Be happy with the rosin.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thats how I see it too although a secondary benefit would be the reduction of squeaking. Using solid enough joist would pretty much eliminate squeaking though. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I've never understood the "squeaking" theory. A board rubbing against another board or on a fastener, I've seen. Two boards being flat together, I don't think so, not without lateral movement. Rosen paper is so much easier to work with. No black knees and dirty hands to transfer to the material. It lays flatter, doesn't fracture like felt and no smell. How many times have you seen tar paper "melt" to a floor or wall, where it has to be scraped off? You don't see that with rosin paper. There isn't any petrochemical in red rosin to off gas. 15# felt paper is a dinosaur, I can't think of any reasonable use on a modern construction job. We use building wraps and roofing underlayment these days. I think they far surpass felt in the jobs they do.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
here in Oregon where its very wet many houses are rotten from tyveck, i only used felt and have had no problems, My old carpenter friends only used felt too, The new builders are taking off there siding after 3 years.
Yup.....I still prefer felt over Tyvek. Been rehabing old homes for twenty some odd years. Very often when the exterior trim or siding has failed, the felt beneath is still in good shape.
And unless a roof has a shallow pitch, I still use 15# for a new install. (Ice shield where necessary)
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I just removed about 1000 sq. ft of Tyvek off a house I'm remodeling that had been sided with board and Batt Western Red Cedar 16 years ago.
The Cedar had never been treated or sealed with anything.
The OSB siding in one area and the Doug fir plywood in another, were in perfect condition. The Tyvek was like new.
I'm on the South Oregon coast and it gets wet and windy here in the winter and this is not the first time I've seen this situation which runs counter to what I'm starting to believe has been BS about the Cedar/Tyvek thing.
all of these i have seen have been hardi plank, I believe the hardie plank sweats combined with poor installation
It does make one wonder what is the exact cause of the varying discrepancies reported involving the tyvextype housewrap/felt controversy.
There has to be more involved details surrounding the issue than just a broad claim of tannin leach.
Perhaps various manufacturing methods and ingredients in the wrap might come into play as well as specific species and locale of, time of harvest, drying procedures and the like.Peace out.
Can you give a reasonable explanation that the Tyvek caused the problem? Improper insulation, vapor barriers and ventilation are usually the causes if there isn't weather infiltration. Changing the building paper won't change those.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
seems with hardie plank or bricks here the tyveck causes condensation which wicks in through the staple holes or Improper installation causing rot, But this is the wettest county in the nation i believe, Even the building inspector was lamenting this here,Never heard of this problem with felt before, But it could be too to many guys from somewhere else just doing a fast crappy job, However i have pulled off hardie plank and behind it was soaked between the hardie and tyveck,At any rate theres 100 year old houses on the beach without any rot as there breathing with cedar and felt but theres big problems with new houses, The Oregon builders board is addressing this now.I dont claim to know everything but something is wrong.
Hardi plank is the one of the materials that benefits most from rain screen installation.
The last job I did on this earth was a floating floor over tile in a kitchen. The HO brought months of newspaper to level it with, some well over 1/4"areas. No problems in 17 years.
If you didn't know what was under there you'd never notice a difference. Mesic
American Lung Association came out in favor of red rosen over tar paper a few years back when the "Healthy House" thing was first coming out. We switched over then since it made sense not to load a house up with a bunch of tar, though I never had a problem with it. The rosen paper has done fine.
All it does is absorb any grit, sand or saw dust that you miss as you lay the floor so you dont get that crackling sound when you have sand or duct caught between the subfloor and finish floor. You need something there but honestly a couple layers of newsprint would probably do the job.
Tar paper is not a vapor barrier, and that is not it's purpose in this application.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I'll agree on the newsprinbt.
I've seen it under old floors doing just fine
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Rosin Paper or Felt
Doesn't really matter as long as you remember to intall it perpendicular to the finish flooring.
?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I see from your profile that you live in the Northern Hemisphere.
Please don't tell me that you run your slip sheet parallel to the finished flooring.
Sure do....why in the world wouldn't I?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
figured you would, being into FINE homebuilding and all
LOL
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I've seen a floor guy do amazing things using built up and staggered layers of saturated felt.
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