I am straightening out a builder’s long list of warranty and sub par quality work and was wondering what i could do during the building stages to improve quality and reduce call back. So far I have come up with a short list of things I would like to see on every jobsite that would make the subs life easier.
1: Temporary utilities on every lot.
2: Dumpster on every lot.
3: Crushed limestone on every driveway to minimize muddy conditons.
4: Porta potty on every construction site.
5: An easel with full set of plans and dry erase board.
6: A full list of subs with phone numbers so that when problems occur they can notify the concerned parties directly so that progress is not impeded.
7: Trashcan for food waste so that mice and rat issues don’t crop up.
8: Extensive checkoff list that each sub is required to sign off on.
9: ????????
10: ???????
Any other ideas you all can up with would be deeply appreciated.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Edited 12/6/2003 12:19:31 AM ET by ANDYSZ2
Replies
9. Talk to Darcy
10. Talk to Darcy.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
no, I am a rookie.
Well versed rookie then..
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Hire quality subs?
Hi Andy,
Great list!
#9 Make sure your subs show respect for one another's work (this has a great deal to do with choosing your subcontractors properly).
After all, aren't we all working toward a common goal?
This is the one thing that I have really been vocal about these last 2 weeks I have been telling all the subs that if there is a problem that they should feel free to call the sub directly and if that doesn't work call me and I will take care of it personnally, if you need a tool or materials and I'm available I'll be glad to loan or get what they need.
I've been trying to get across that if it gets done right the first time there will be alot less come backs for one item fixes that eat up there time and money.
ANDYSZ2 I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
It's late so I will make my response short.
Your subcontractors need to understand that punching out their own work as they go will reduce their labor costs. In my way of thinking, it pays to do quality work right the first time. Having to roll back for pick-up or corrections has got to be expensive for everyone involved.
Editted for extra thoughts.
You have given me a lot to think about. Thanks.
Edited 12/6/2003 2:47:57 AM ET by darcey
There are several problems with punch lists, and they all stem from the GCs perception of them. That perception is that they are a fact of construction life. That perception is as correct as when we all thought the world was flat, and remember, that “perception” lasted for hundreds of years.
In reality, one must first address them by realizing that they represent nothing more than an excellent example of mismanagement. Mismanagement of the owner. Mismanagement of the superintendent, mismanagement of the project manager, mismanagement of the subcontractor, mismanagement of their staffs and mismanagement of the GCs staff.
Virtually anyone of authority that is involved in the project.
Let’s face it. Punch out lists are the end result of terrible organization, the absence of proper delegation of authority, accountability, simple caring of one’s customers, a lack of business smarts, poor planning and a general attitude of: “I don’t care because it’s not a priority of mine” and regardless of whose mind in which that thinking resides.”
So, since both all crap and gems flow down hill, it really all stems from the top - what accountability is demanded by this person, and from those with which s/he depends upon, is partnering with, and supposedly with shared goals.
Only when you know what punch lists really represent, and like a disease, what causes them, can you start an intelligent discussion about them. If this offends anyone, so be it, but I’m a realist and like to solve problems with the least amount of rationalizing, whining, complaining and finger pointing, which is what most people tend to do. Stick to root causes of any problem and a combination of intelligence and that apparent elusive concept called “common sense” will provide the solution - IF one has the authority to do so.
Andy, done right you can make a bundle in this issue. And once you’ve proven your expertise in it, then you become a consultant, training other contractors on how to address this problem by eliminating it at the onset.
What Sonny Said!!!!!
A punchlish is a list of stuff that was done wrong, overlooked,not done at all or not planned for.
Proper PRIOR Planning Prevents Pissz-Poor Performance!
The reason the customer is paying you to manage thier project is because YOU are Going to use your experience and knowledge to plan, guide, expedite, and execute the job the way it should be.
95% of all "punchlist' items are the result of someone not doing their job.
Which is ultimately the responsibility of the GC.
Letting these items slide till the end of the job is counter productive and unprofessional.
My bosses favorite excuse is "this is remodeling, we never will be able to foresee what we wil run into".
That may be true but it is not a license to do a poor job of preliminary planning.
I could go on for pages but the caffiene is wearing off...................Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
8: Extensive checkoff list that each sub is required to sign off on.Ê
At some point, Sonny Lykos mailed me his old Subcontractor Conformance Standards, one for each trade, with check lists. Great forms!
Maybe you could sweet-talk him...
when you coming to the final stages of the project, keep a check off list on sight in one dedicated spot with a pen or pencil attached to it.
Have the guy or guys make a list of everything they can collectively think of that is yet to be done and put it on the list and add stuff that may be left off that list as soon as the guys think of it.
that way you don't pull out and realize you didn't one or two little things requiring a 30 minute drive for 10 minutes of work.
sounds good in theory anyway, I've been trying to push at work for us to do it, I've done it on my little jobs and it works, problem is getting people to actually make the list and update it on bigger jobs.
That is one of the the reasons I want to put a dry erase board on each job site so they can write down any problems they have discovered so that it can be fixed ealy in the process.
One of the most common problems lately is doors.we use alot of 8' doors and they are next to impossible to adjust if the the walls are out of plumb. One solution I want to start doing is checking the framing with a large square to see how plumb the door openings are and adjust before the sheetrock and trim guys come in.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Hi Andy, just my two cents worth.
1) Permit board for each site. Put plans, cards, etc. here for use by subs, inspectors, etc. You could make this front or back side of mounting board for temp electric.
2) Demand respect for others work by all. This will cut down some on punchlist items.
3) So much as time allows walk job(s) every AM/PM without subs and make notes of deficient work. You can mention this in AM so they 'jump' on it first thing.
4) Photos are a good idea, especially if it will be covered up. They are also a life saver in a claim situation but.....thats another post.
5) As others have already stated, emphasize to subs the importance of getting done right the first time. This cuts down on call backs and increases there profits, and builders customer satisfaction.
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
My opinion is that you will never be able to eliminate punch lists for the simple reason that commercial and residential projects, the main concern is SPEED. Subs don't have the time to do the job properly, prior subs not totally ready for you..it's basically a rush job and the result is poor workmanship. Subs don't have time to take photos, read bulletin boards, etc...every second they are forced to get it done NOW.
Let me get this straight, your hired out from a builder to do punchlist work from all the mistakes that his subs made?
What kind of Builder is this that uses subs that are so bad that they have to higher someone else to do the punchlist. I've never heard that before unless there was a sub that was fired and the builder had to replace him with another sub to finish.
Who's there to oversee the project?
Is this common practice for builders to higher out someone else to do punchlists?
They should start using quality subs.
Am I missing something here?
Joe Carola
Punchout can be anything from adjusting door strikes to patching sheetrock damage to fixing windows damaged by sheetrock to pipes that make loud noises .Wrong doors sent out to customer not liking door knobs to sheer stupidity to vandalism. The list goes on and on but for the most part it is small things that somebody forgot to do or came up missing. But I have had some major screwups to fix like floors out of level 2 inches to bowed walls.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
But I have had some major screwups to fix like floors out of level 2 inches to bowed walls.
That's a major F**K UP if you ask me. A floor out of level 2" is a serious problem that should be addressed by the architect or engineer. How could that possibly be on a new house unless there's a column missing , no header in a bearing wall, the list can go on. How do you plan on addressing that.
A floor 2" out of level is a major structural problem not a PUNCHLIST problem.
Just had to add that I would hate to by a house from this builder with problems like that.
Joe Carola
Edited 12/6/2003 8:01:25 AM ET by Framer
They had 2x12 joist over garage ceiling and transitioned to 2 x 10 joists in rest of house by adding top plate but it was out over an inch and a half > I tore up carpet and then plywood and shimmed each joist up until planed out to within a 1/8th.Seen this on 2 houses in a row caught it in the framing stage on the second one.They fired this framer on the last house but the funny thing is that 5 years ago I had gone behind him on several of his houses and always thought he was a good framer so you never know.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
as a kitchen cabinet installer, i'm one of the last trades to go in and i'll add my two cents worth
1. provide good access, i can appreciate not wanting oil stains on the new concrete drive, so why not tarp it? i have a ton of equipment to carry in
2. heat and maybe even ac running, we all do better work if comfortable and warm (or cool) especially when doing fancy trim etc
3. adequete electrical supply, 8 guys working off one outlet in the basement doesnt work, at least have kitchen outlet working plus one in the garage or outside
i hate callbacks, they are unneccessary and a waste of time and materials, a plumber recently had to cut a huge hole in my sink cabinet because the rough in was wrong, now i have to replace the cabinet some time in january, that callback will require the plumber, electrician, painter and myself for a half day
how could it have been prevented? coordination between the subs which i guess is the gc's job
other big beef with other trades is respect for each others work. if i damage drywall or paint, i'll fix it, others should do the same
toilet facilities are a must, nothing fancy of course
a dumpster nearby, duuuh!!!!!!
and clean up after your self, hate to say it but around here plumbers and electricians are the worst, scraps of pipe and wire everywhere
lasst job i was on, plumber left a pile of fittings on the kitchen floor!!caulking is not a piece of trim
What do you suggest as an incentive to cleanup after yourself. Builders around here have lot/landscape cleanup crew and an interior house finish cleaning crew. But after the last mouse and rat incident I sure would like for everyone to just throw there food waste away.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
put it in the contract, no clean up, no pay
i take pride in leaving my sites cleaner than when i got therecaulking is not a piece of trim
What do you suggest as an incentive to cleanup after yourself?
Andy-
This, like so many other items you've mentioned, should be addressed in the contract with the sub up front. As someone else said- cleanup, or no check. Or, we'll have someone else clean up for you, and take the cost from your payment.
It's tough to enforce these types of things if they aren't communicated up front to the subs. Let's face it- most guys are used to leaving their sh!t right where it lands, because no one's ever asked them to do otherwise. If that's the case, how can you suddenly expect them to change? If you put all these requirements in the contract, you'll end up paying more for them (the sub may charge more for the labor to clean up, etc), but in the long run, it'll save money.
I worked for a custom builder in Las Vegas who had a subcontractor manual full of requirements, checklists that had to be filled out prior to payment (signed by the site super), etc. The subs knew exactly what was expected of them, and what the reprecussions would be in the requirements weren't met. I remember well writing backcharges for trash cleanup, damage repairs, and punchlist repairs I had to have my assistants perform, and I also remember all the whining from the subs when they got the bill. It was a simple matter of whipping out the sub manual and showing them where they went wrong (along with copies of the deficiency notices that had been sent to their offices previously).
Zero-punchlist homes are fuly acheiveable- I had over two dozen zero-punchlist walk-throughs, and these were on 4-6,000 SF homes with some of the most finicky buyers you could ever imagine. You've just got to create the proper expectations in your people, and then manage to those expectations.
Bob
"What do you suggest as an incentive to cleanup after yourself?"
I guess expecting guys to have pride in their work is too much to ask??
Attitude is everything.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I guess it is- otherwise we wouldn't be having this post here in the first place.
What does pride in their work have to do with cleaning up? As a tradesman, I can be proud of my work and still not clean up after myself. All I have to do is decide that cleaning up isn't part of my work.
Chefs don't clean up after themselves. Surgeons don't clean up after themselves. It doesn't make sense to pay somebody the hourly rate for a skilled trade to do a job that you could hire somebody less skilled to do for much less money. Or if you think it does make sense, for instance because it would be hard to hire a flunky to clean for half an hour here and an hour there, then like the post above said, you need to tell the subs about it in advance, and you need to be ready to pay for the extra time it takes.
I hear you. An example.
I was the manager of a A/V firm.
We were typically doing a lot of our work near the end of a building project. hence, much of what we did was obvious. So, when I would stop by a job to see how the guys were doing, and I would see some lunch trash on the lawn, or wires left under a cabinet, or old boxes tossed in the garage kinda near the trash, I would get on their case. Each team of guys had a higher payed skilled guy, and a lesser paid learner. I expect that BOTH of them would leave the job the same way they found it, regardless of the neatness of their splices, or the coolness of their programming.
If the lesser paid guy did the bulk of the work fine, but really, how much trouble is it to take an empty box and keep it near you while you work, put you trash in it, and carry it to the truck??
While it might not have a bearing on the actual work, per se', it is part of the job.
We hired guys from all walks, and the guys who I had issues with regarding their work were the same ones who put their tool pouches on leather chairs and threw lunch trash out in the yard. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I have a feeling that neither of us will persuade the other, so I won't extend this. :) But I will agree with you that damaging furniture and throwing trash on the lawn are unacceptable. Non-negotiable and not on the clock.
I will agree with you about the trash/attitude thing. most of the guys I see who are so ignorant they don't know what a trash can is for also need a lot more supervision on the whole job.
At the same time, Dunc has an economic point. usually what I see in larger developements and new homes is that the builder has a guy on the clock to tend to trash pick up and gophering, while expecting each sub to handle his own bulk trash, either by hauling it off or putting it in the designated location.
But on smaller jobs such as a re-roof, or remodel, there is not enough trash generated to validate the wages of a laborer for that. The guyon the job is the lead carp or supervisor, whose wages are a little high for trash pick up work.
I expect each of my subs to pick up his own, but I will often do a cleanup every day myself too. This is a way for me to relax, back off and inspect all the work without making any one feel like I am looking over his shoulder and making him nervous. I can't think when my mind gets too cluttered and I can't work when the job site is up to ankles in trash.
Remodel jobs, especiallly when the customer is living there require a higher degree of clean than new work, but I am astonded by the messes I see on some new work. I stopped by a jobn the other day at the invitation of a potential new sub to see his workmanship - plaster interior - and had to climb over piles of off cuts and garbage outside the door to get in. It was not only unsightly, but decidedly unsafe.
Anyone who believes that it is not part of their job description to clean up after themselves needs to look at it from the customers point of view. i have lost count of how many times a client has told me that one reason they hired me was bewcause they had seen how I run my joibs - including how clean.
ANDY - For other parts of your list -
It sounds to me like as though your builder does not use lead carpenter system, having a skilled man on the job at all times. Communications between subs gets lost in the mix even if you have a board or master list. I try to always notice when sub starts to pick up his tols and stop to visit and ask to go over things with him. Did he do this and that and is this iten in yet???? Half the time, he ends up going back to work to finish something he "forgot" or making a ohoine call to check on deliveries and orders.
I haad an electrician who was otherwise a thorough and pleasent person but who always made a mess without picking up. I got in the habit of meeting him at the door on his way out with a broom, a smile, and a finger pointing at his mess. After five or six times of this, he bought his own broom, and I still get to smile.
;)
.
Excellence is its own reward!
well, I think you've got it just about right. My business started in cabinetry, and rapidly escalated, but I'm still a very small fish. When any thing goes wrong with the job, I am the guy who goes and tells the client. If there are problems of any nature, they come talk to me. If a sub leaves a mess, I clean it, cuz it's my job and I sure don't want the client to find it! It relects badly on me.
I do agree with your strategy of doing the clean/inspect thing. Certainly pushing a broom and vacuum are one of the hats I wear. And I agree with the economic aspects as well. No sense spending big labor wages for a clean-up guy. I love seeing a clean up guy on big sites. It makes so much sense. A helper can do so much..organize the wood piles, build scaffolding, all sorts of things that don't require years of practice.
I guess I was looking at the semi-big picture. When a sub is on site, they should, however they arrange it, leave it the way they found it, better, actually...they do intall stuff, right? ;)Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
"I worked for a custom builder in Las Vegas who had a subcontractor manual full of requirements, checklists that had to be filled out prior to payment (signed by the site super), etc."
Gee, Bob, do you still a have copy of that? Andy, Sonny, and I could sure use it for research for our book! <g>
BTW, great post!
What suggestions do you have for establishing positive relationships with your subcontractors (trade partners)?
darcy
Now, Darcey- that was proprietary information that a company spend hundreds of hours assembling, based on years of hard-earned experience with dealing with subs. They even copyrighted the manual. So, what makes you think I'd be willing to share the copy that I "accidentally" left in my truck on the last day I worked there??? LOL
They had 2x12 joist over garage ceiling and transitioned to 2 x 10 joists in rest of house by adding top plate but it was out over an inch and a half > I tore up carpet and then plywood and shimmed each joist up until planed out to within a 1/8th
Not really following that but are you saying that they added and extra top plate on the existing house to bring up the top of the 2x10's to match the top of the 2x12 garage beams?
That would be wrong by 1/2" . The right way to do it is to lower the garage walls 2" so that if they use 2x12's in the garage they will meet up with the top of the house 2x10's.
Above the garage, is it a room that's supposed to be level with the rest of the house?
Or did they rip the 2x12's down from one end to the other?
Joe Carola
To tell you the truth I am not sure how he ended up so far off but on the house that was just framed you could see where he added plate to raise the height of the house side to match garage.This still didn't explain why the house side of the floor was the high side. He had driven shims under the flooring to try and spread out the differance but it was a severe downhill.So on this one I removed the shims cut the floor free and let first run of plywood but into high side of joist put a sister under it.Then i added another layer of 3/4" ply wood on top of first layer and this planed out real close.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Andy,
Now that's what you call a BUTCHER or a HACK Framer.
He probably charges the builder nothing to frame with no insurance and his price is so cheap this builder can pay you to fix it.
We all make mistakes but the good ones fix them. This Framer has no excuse. Well it's good for you to have Butchers or Hack Framers like him so you can stay busy.
I'm going to shovel more snow. I'm shoveling and my son and he's throwing it back on me.
Good Luck.
Joe Carola
Edited 12/6/2003 12:52:50 PM ET by Framer
Joe-
How can I get a hold of you on Monday? I've got a set of preliminary sketches for a new house I'd like you to take a look at.
Thanks,
Bob
Bob,
I'm trying to E-Mail you and this is what I get.
You're registered as under 13 years old. This feature is not available to you in accordance with the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act.
I probably have to Reregister but I don't have time right now I want to go shovel before it gets any colder because the news just said the temperature is going to drop and everything is going to frieze. If you want you can e-mail me at [email protected] or just post your e-mail address here.
Thanks Bob.
Joe Carola
Wow- registered as under 13 years old- maybe mentally....lol.
I'll email you tomorrow, assuming I get five minutes to scan the plans and turn them into JPEGs so you can look at them. I've got framing numbers in my database for the production jobs I estimate, but none of the butchers who's pricing is reflected in there will be framing MY house- I want to get a number from a true framing contractor.
Bob
Bob,
I got your email from JLC and I emailed you about 10 minutes ago before I read this.
Wow- registered as under 13 years old- maybe mentally....lol
Well, if you ask my wife she says I act the same age as my son and he's 5 but she still loves me ...........
Joe Carola
Part of the problem is one man builder operations are building 10 to 20 houses a year so supervision is at a minimun. Another problem is that the building industry is so hot that subs are unskilled an often don't speak english. Still another problem is that framers average less than 4$ a square foot so the only way to make money is to rush and go to next house.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Edited 12/6/2003 7:53:16 AM ET by ANDYSZ2
Why are these lists always called "punch" lists? Why "punch"?
Why are these lists always called "punch" lists? Why "punch"?
cause you wanna punch the people that ask you to do em'...where you been?
And Sonny Lykos was here..WOW..one of my fav posters!
BE well punched out
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
because by time you get it finished at midnite before deadline, you are feeling "punchy"
LOL
ever hear of ticket takers punching the tickets? I still see it sometimes. They have a punch that chomps a small hole in the ticket.
I suppose that sometime in construction history, some supervisor used somethig like this to mark off items on the list instead of using a Sharpie to X them off.
Excellence is its own reward!
Here is one more. Clean the site (A clean site is a happy site). I've been on some projects where you can barely walk because of all of the crap everywhere. Every body is complaining that it's hard to get their work done but nobody is picking up the trash. Most of the generals around here have each sub responsible for there own clean up. The good ones hire laborers and back charge the subs if they don't clean up.
I use to do a lot of cleanup between subs because the next sub in line would refuse to work. So one of my builders would pay between a 100 and 250 for me come in and cleanup. I have a 6 yard dump trailer and it was more conveneant to bring my trailer for the day than have the dumpster take up much needed space on our zero lot line jobs.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Does anyone use they're own dumpster?
One GC that I do work for bought his own 10 yard dumpster and had his name put on it because alot of towns you can't have jobsite signs so he can advertise and have his dumpster loaded every day and have it picked up and brought back when it's full.
Alot of Contractors are starting to do that.
Joe Carola
Man thats a good idea I am going to talk to my builder about that.Not just for the signage but to motivate him to start keeping a dumpster on at least one of his sites.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Andy,
You have to see how convenient it is, it's a joke. Every day when we get done we just throw out garbage right in the dumpster and when it's full the GC calls and they come and pick it right up and they bring it right back. When he's done with this job he'll have it brought to the next job. It's a 20 yard dumpster and alot more convenient then this one GC I use to frame for, he would have one of his guys load the dumptruck and then drive it to the dump and unload it and then come back and load the dump again and then drive to the dump and unload it, paying this guy all day to waste time to do this.
The initial cost is to buy this dumpster and I think it costed $2,200.00 and you pay the same as if you used their dumpster but you don't have to pay one of you employees to drive around all day while he could be producing some work. I think this is going to be pretty popular for alot of contractors.
Joe Carola
The dump fees is very reasonable I think it is under 300 for dump and delivery but you still have to pay someone to do the cleanup.Still the idea of using your own dumpster with your logo on it sure implies you are big time enough to afford it.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Still the idea of using your own dumpster with your logo on it sure implies you are big time enough to afford it.
I wouldn't say that someone is big time to own a dumpster, the GC isn't big time but he invested $2,500.00 including the dumpster and the guy to paint his Company name and phone number on the dumpster.
Joe Carola
I may be naive but i would have the impression that the company was doing pretty good to invest in a dumpster. Now that I think about it I have seen one construction company with their own dumpster with logo. I remember thinking how can that guy be making so much money that he can afford dumpsters and truck didn't occur to me he might be paying for them to come get it.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Wonder who the contractor was for this house?
http://www.homemyhome.com/id17.html
Sonny,
I have no clue, nor would I want any association with him. All I have to say is, this job is just aching for our white glove treatment!
darcy
On that job I think one could have started with a "black" glove treatment and still made ground.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that they were suprised that gc's paid other companies/individuals to perform exclusively punchlist work, I can tell you in the Boston area this is a very widespread practice. I've done many of these types of jobs; the punchlists have ranged from doors without any locksets, doors with glass inserts with the insert missing, 10 inch radius holes in sheetrock, exterior doors installed with 1 inch gaps between doorframe and masonry walls so you could peer into the building from outside, junction boxes with live, bare wires sitting in them, and a slew of other things. The root cause of all this, in my opinion, is lowest bid awarding of contracts; the guys who bid the lowest have the cheapest employees and are constantly overextending themselves. Seems like a good 65% of residential and 95% of commercial work is done on a lowest bid basis. Leaving food wrappers, and dangerous trash laying around is nothing but disrespectful to coworkers and the people cleaning; throwing your half full coffee cup in the trash instead of on the floor is the simple, right thing to do.
-Ray
Ray, I know you’re right. I’ve also been working on condos for about 8-10 years, and most of the repairs are things that never should have occurred. I attribute it to the “lowest bidder” scenario.
Here in Naples, FL, a wealthy area, we still have that problem but it gets worse.
We have several large builders and builder/developers who thrive on new subs who recently got their licenses. These “newbies” neither know their true costs of doing business, nor carry enough working capital, nor do they know the traps waiting for them. By “traps” I mean these unscrupulous GCs and builder/developers who hire these newly licensed guys who are excited to get a larger job, then stall them for literally months, and when they know the newbie sub is finally desperate for money, will settle with him for anywhere from .50 to .80 on the dollar.
So eventually, these guys who have been burned time and again, eventually develop the attitude that it’s strictly in and out, and as cheaply as possible. And that means leaving it to someone else to wipe their rear ends, which is what I call trashing a building.
While I hate what these subs do, but this caliber of GC deserves it, and in fact, it’s like they trained these subs to act and work exactly as they do. So I can’t blame these subs, but only when working for the above type of builder/developer/remodeler.
Sonny,
Most of the items that were on my "Warranty" list were a direct result of the builder turning over homes in unfinished condition. Here is a list from one of them:
Dishwasher not hooked up
No weather-stripping in exterior doors
No sweeps on the door bottoms
Cabinet knobs missing
Light bulbs missing or not working
Cabinet doors not adjusted
Shelves missing
No caulking around sinks
Dirty filters in the in-takes
Construction lock still on front door
Window cranks missing
Scrapes of masking left
Paint touch-up not completed
etc...well, you get the idea
Same builder then complains that the Warranty Department's costs are too high!
Huh?
hmm...sounds like one more day, and a pre-walkthrough checklist for the super coulda prevented that list....
Bob,
I thoroughly agree! I did all that. I handed the pre-walkthrough checklist directly to the Superintendent every single time.
The Super refused to pull the subs off production to address these issues, which was very frustrating. I encountered the same difficulties while attempting to have warranty issues addressed and solved.
darcy
It goes back to contracts, contracts, contracts......
Our contracts required every subcontractor to provide a dedicated customer service person for punchout work. This person did nothing but take care of the odds and ends- therefore, no yanking anyone from production to put in two pieces of weatherstripping.
It did make it easier for the production guys to just say "ahh....the punchlist guy will take care of it", and leave things hanging- but that's the subcontractor's problem for not managing his own organization well.
We'd walk the job a week prior to the customer, and generate a list that went to the customer service person at each company. Within two to three days, 95% of the items were gone, and the balance usually disappeared the day before the walkthrough. We tried to schedule walkthroughs for late AM or early PM to give any late straglers a few extra hours to hit any remaining items.
On a side note, we always had two painters with up on the customer walkthroughs- if the customer found a knick, etc., that we had missed, it was corrected before they walked out of the house at the end of the walkthrough. Worked like a charm......
Bob
No one yet has used the term 'Turn Key'.
Why is it so hard for a builder to deliver a product in the condition in which HE/SHE would move into it?
I have built a few; been closely involved on more........gees.......we used to clean the windows!
This ain't rocket science, it's pretty damn simple: either you care or you don't. Last thing I want to do is go back after the fact to fix something or worse yet fix something that is holding up the closing.
I think a big portion of it has to be about denial.
Seen a few guys wind up in court 'cause the couldn't bring themselves to admit their srewups.
I still don't get it.
Eric
Edited 12/9/2003 5:58:22 PM ET by firebird
Eric, "they" don't get it either.
Bob, even contracts mean nothing if they're not enforced.
"Bob, even contracts mean nothing if they're not enforced."
So true, so true, but if it isn't "in there", it's ever harder to enforce. You need buy-in from all members of the team- our bonuses were based on several factors, including site cleanliness, on-time completion, and # of punchlist items. I wasn't about to let a few knicks and scrapes keep me from that bonus money- the subs hated me after a while, but I really didn't care- I was all about getting that bonus (had to be- the base pay sucked....lol).
Bob
Bob, you said: “- the subs hated me after a while,....”
And that’s what it’s all about, along with “your” customer and “your” company’s customer - and reputation.
If the subs will not work with you, and refuse to realize it’s also in their best interest as well, then they are insane and lousy business people, and my attitude would then be: “To hell with them.”
My customer and my reputation comes first.
It's the same attitude we all experienced ( well, us older guys), while rasing our kids. Yo give them a little slack when they come home late and with no phone call, and then again a second time, they hear: "Now it's a new ball game. From now on........................"
And they have no one to blame but themselves. It's that very old concept again, called "accountability."
Why is it so hard for a builder to deliver a product in the condition in which HE/SHE would move into it?
LOL... you mean half finished and tarped with two years worth of full time work left on the "punch List?" :-)>
"Come on Honey, what's the big deal? Just wash the dishes in the bathtub." POW! One more punch added to the list. Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I rest my case: Mismanagment every where down the line, until of course, it gets dropped into the lap of Ms. "Professional" Manager, who then tries to cover everyone else's rear end with her exceptional CS talents.
Crappy situation for you, but on the positive side, it represent a tremendous amount of experience gleaned in how to become an exceptional fire fighter and CS professional.
Now you have to turn that experience, talent, and expertise, into $$$$ - in "your" pockets.