I’m refinishing the oak floor in my combination living room – dining room. The house is 50 year old.
The floor had been finished several years ago with red oak stain and three coats of polyurethane (oil based).
My new finish will be polyurethane but this time it will be water base.
Yesterday I rented a floor buffer and used 60 grit abrasive screens to sand out the deep scratches.
I ended up sanding some sections down to bare wood in order to remove deep scratches in the old finish.
Do I need to go ahead and completely remove the old finish throughout the room and get the entire room down to bare wood prior to applying the new finish?
Seems like it would be a mistake to apply a coat of finish over what I have right now as the finish would probably be blotchy and uneven.
Thanks for any input and suggestions.
^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Replies
I would have hesitation about going water based over oil with out removing all the finish. Why not go with an environmentally friendly low VOC oil based finish such as Hood Everlast? http://www.hoodfinishing.com/finishing_prod.htm
I think it would bond with the existing oil finish as well as with the bare wood and it looks great and the price is reasonable.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Thanks for the info on that finish. I have never heard of it.I'm changing from gloss finish to satin and noticed that this type of finish has 4-5 different sheens (gloss to satin to matte finish)Thanks again !^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
When you're going to a satin finish, only apply the satin finish as the final coat. Use a gloss finish for everything else.The satin finish is obtained by mixing dulling compounds into a clear finish. The more coats you put on, the muddier it gets. Just use one coat of a satin finish.George Patterson
>>Do I need to go ahead and completely remove the old finish throughout the room and get the entire room down to bare wood prior to applying the new finish?<<
Yes, it will have different tints all over if you hit bare wood in spots and have remaining finish in others.
Take it all down to bare wood, and be happy with the results.
Matt
I think you're right about taking it clear down to bare wood.Prior to starting this project I thought back to when I was a teacher and how the custodian refinished the gym floor every summer.I thought he sanded and smoothed the old finish with a buffer like I'm doing and then applied a new top coat.I don't remember him taking the entire finish off and taking it clear down to bare wood but I could be wrong.Anyway, thanks again for your suggestion and I think I should have rented a drum sander instead of this buffer.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Your old gym floor probably had a wax top coat, by buffing it he was able to blend the areas of more wear with the areas of less. Then apply more wax as needed.
Alot of them old floors had an epoxy like finish that was almost bullet proof, the wax helped keep the floor bright and shiny.
Matt
You would have been quicker with a drum sander,but if you've never used,or only occasionally used one,you will have done less damage.I'm in the business,and have seen some spectacularly disastrous refinishing attempts.However you must remove all traces of the existing oil base,or it will turn out patchy.Water base material dries quickly and does not smell as noxious as oil.Good luck,mack.
This is a product they sell at home depot.Have you tried it?http://www.howardproducts.com/restora.htm^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
My brother used this on his oak floors with great results. As I understand it, though, it's intended for use on old floors that nobody has tried to sand or buff down. I doubt it would work with this sort of thing.George Patterson
this is another product they sell at HDhttp://www.asseenontvguys.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=205&HS=1^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
If the floor was refinished several years ago, I concur with the "use an oil based finish and repair" thought. Why take everything off to use a water based product, unless you don't like the look of the current stain? You'll shorten the life of the floor unnecessarily with a complete sanding.
Sand out any scratches, feather the edges, touch up the stain, screen the whole floor and apply one coat of an oil based product. Probably a couple of coats where you touched up the stain. Maybe have to blend in some tint or use a gel stain on some spots to get the color even.
What about a pickled style of finish?http://www.minwax.com/shoptalk/resources/antique-finish.cfmI have seen a white oak floor and I thought it looked really good.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Pickled finishes are not my cup of tea, but if you want that dramatic of a change, then I suspect you will have to remove all of the existing finish, if nothing else to get rid of the stain.Maybe you could pickle over the existing stain, but you would have to test it to find out.
What I'm trying to do is similar to staining and finishing wood with unattractive grain pattern.For example, yellow pine was used for doors, wide baseboards, window trim, etc and the grain pattern looked terrible.They used to use some kind of stain to cover up the grain pattern and yet it still looked like varnished wood.A while back I had oil based paint mixed with polyurethane and it worked to cover up problems.What I'm running into is the polyurethane I'm sanding on my floor is hard as a rock and I can't believe how slow this process is.It would take a week to sand down to bare wood using a floor buffer.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
mrfixtitusa
Why don't you consider shellac? It's a lot harder and more durable than polyurethanes plus when you need to refinish it in the future all you need to do is flood it down with denatured alcohol and wipe away the old finish..
usually you won't need to do that because scratches can be simply wiped away with a rag dampened with a little denatured alcohol. Bare spots blend perfectly with the old finish.
It's cheap, fast, (you can put the furniture down the same day and walk on it in a couple of hours) easy to do and as mistake proof as any finish in the world..
hadn't even thought about thatI think they used orange shellac on the floor when they built this house and I think that's what was on it when I sanded it down three yrs agoIt was hard as a rockI have never used shellac before.Thanks for the suggestion and I'll kick it around^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
mrfixitusa,
shellac is either clear or amber.. I can get a 10 year old to shellac a floor and wind up with a great finish.. no sanding!
I'll gladly talk you through everything if you'd like..
by the way if you go into the archieves and punch in 8666.13 and 8692.13 you'll see some of my shellaced floor that has withstand my 150# dog for 6 months.
You can if you wish get a flawless polished finish or do as I did which is mop it on and get on with your life..
I can finish 500 sq.ft inside of two hours.. and I'm fat and lazy and old!
I did a search using the two ID numbers you provided and the topics did not pertain to shellac finishes.I'm going to sand my floor down to bare wood today.How would I go about finishing the floor with shellac?I do not want a "built up" looking finishing and I don't want a gloss finish. I want a light stain. Something like golden oak or golden pecan where it looks more yellow than brown or red.I'm going to apply the finish with a lambs wool type of applicator and don't want to get down on my hands and knees with a brush.I want a floor that looks perfect and it looks like a professional floor finisher did the floor.I don't want brush marks, bubbles, or sections of the floor that look different because the finish was brushed from north to south rather than south to north like most of the rest of the floor.I want to look like a wipe on furniture finish. No puddles that didn't get brushed out etc.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
I have done a few houses but don't do it all the time -- if the floor is flat and not cupped, get a platfom sander (12x18 pad) start with 36 grit to get the stuff off and then work up to a 100 grit -- tack cloth the floor use the pad to apply the stain pour some on the floor and snow plow the satin until you get to the other side of the room and then walk backwards picking up your tracks - let the stain dry - do the same thing with the first cost of satin poly or the water borne finish (if you use water borne it set up very fast you usually can not touch up spots you see that you missed the first time)
Sand with 150 grit before the second coat. Wait a day, apply the 3rd coat. do not put rugs down for a week.
Platform sanding is long and very slow compared to a drum sander but you get a very good job and that is the price you pay for not doing this more than a few times a year -- all of my floors are beautiful but you have to be patient
Thanks for the info !Have you ever finished an oak floor with a natural finish (no stain) ?My floor is 1 1/2 inch oak pieces and some are darker and I think it would look good to be able to see the different planks in the floor rather than staining the floor to make it all look uniform.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
I have finshed pine floors without a stain but have always stained oak -- look at the minwax stain samples -- see if you cannot approximate the color of the floor you would like -- I have used a honey maple and with the difffernt grains it looks like it has not been satined -- the staining gives some uniformity to the floor but allows the richer darker browns to show through - you want a very light see through stain that emblishes the very light colors and lets the darker hues come out.
mrfixitusa,
once you have the floor the color you'd like it then I take a gallon of Zinnssers bullseye shellac and two gallons of denatured alcohol and mix them.. if you pour out shellac into a can, stir first for a few moments, shellac settles.
then mop it on using your lambs wool applicator.. I mean really flood it on.. however do not ever go back. I'm serious as a heart attack.. don't go back over anything.. one shot is all you get!, (don't worry get it the next trip).
It will dry in 15 minutes!
Yeh, cool ! Now you need to sand, don't worry this will go insanely fast. get a sanding sponge say 220 grit.. That Or you can use a DA sander with 220 grit.. what you want to do is sand the nibs off that get raised. On average it takes a second to a second and a half per sq.ft. so 500 sq.ft. should take you about 8 1/2 minutes to complete.. maximum of 12 minutes..
Don't try to correct flaws in the finish or do anything but sand the nibs off.. now flood on the second coat it will dry in about 30 minutes.. Yep enough for you to walk around in your stocking feet. (did I mention that shellac washes out of clothing? so you won't ruin a pair of socks.. ) check to make sure there are no nibs left. if so just sand those off..
I've never spent more than a minute or two sanding on the second coat..
Now flood on the third and final coat.. wait an hour before walking on it and you'll note it gets harder and harder as time goes by. it's harder the next day and the next month etc.. If you'd like a little more depth go ahead and put another coat on. and another and another etc.. but you need to double the drying time with each coat..
As for your lambs wool applicator you can let it dry and next time you use it for shellac simply soak it in denatured alcohol for a few minutes before using.. or if you might use it for other finishes,, rinse it out with denatured alcohol or ammonia
A gallon does about 500 sq.ft.
OH, I checked the floor is at 86920.13 not 8666.13. That's a two coat floor done inside an hour total time, I had to get a piano up there and my buddy couldn't wait anymore..
Edited 9/14/2007 12:01 pm ET by frenchy
Thanks for all the info - I need a finish that dries quickly since I'm living in the house I'm working on.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
In your post regarding shellac finishing floors, you mentioned a "DA sander." What is it?
Kaneohebay,
DA stands for dual action also known as radum orbit sander.
Mix the Shellac at 60% clear and 40% Amber for a golden color.
I had to color match some last week and it looks good.
If you want to try making a tone of your own, use teaspoon amounts in disposable cup and scrap oak. Try 6 teaspoons clear and 4 of the Amber. Add which ever one you want to get the tone you like.
If you are not sure after you have mixed up your final tone remember that it's easier to go darker, sanding again to get it lighter.
Matt
Thanks for the info - I looked at home depot tonite and they have amber in quarts and clear in both quarts and gallons.Price is $10 per quart and $30 per gallon.Thanks again !^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
BT'ers coached me through this same process a few years ago. i'll see if i can locate those threads, and i'll try to dig up my pictures. 1- i used the random orbit sanders, and they did a great job, but BOY- does the sandpaper ever load up fast with whatever finish was on the floor before. i alternated sanding and scraping the 'scabs' of melted wax and varnish out of the discs so i could reuse them as much as possible. you can spend a small fortune on those discs.2- if you know where to look, shellac comes in a myriad of colors. clear, amber and orange are the most common. but if you want a light floor with a blondish yellow look, you might not need any coloring at all. just wetting the floor with a clear coat of shellac or poly will warm up and slightly darken the tone.3- use GLOSS poly for all but the top coat if you want a satin finish. you will probably want uo to 4 coats-- if not more- and if you use anything besides gloss for them, they will build up a foggy look that is just nasty. do you final in semi-gloss or satin, and you'll still have a nice clear finish with a satiny sheen.4- poly will blister on top of shellac if you don't use another zinsser productcalled "Sealcoat" between them. it can be done. i shellacked, then sealcoat, then 4 coats oil poly.5- poured shellac starts to dry immediately and will leave a dark ring around the outer edge of the pool you poured onto the floor, that you have to work to dissolve again. so pour out small amounts, or do what i was advised to do and brush brush brush it on.
Thanks for the info ! I'm going to print out yours and the others' advice as it's really good.Thanks everyone.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
http://forums.taunton.com/n/main.asp?qu=shellac&find=Search&webtag=tp-breaktime&ctx=search&cl=632358&af=10000&o=relevance&be=0this conversation is mostly about shellac, but may be useful to you. am still searching for the other thread i started that has more info about the sanding etc-ps- here's 2 pix from 2 summers ago when i did the floors. first is a before sanding picture of the corner detail i mentioned, in DR and LR. The second shows the freshly sanded look of the floors from DR into the LR. you can see placement of corner detail just to the right of my dad's old belt sander. ps, the unfinished closet in the LR photo is one i built into the space where the old un-funcioning coal FP had been. i ripped out layers of brick and added a much-needed coat closet, again with the help of BT'ers. look carefully and you can see that the darker line of the floor detail inlay goes around the old hearth area, which i used to define the depth of my closet, so it looks fairly original to the house.
hmmm- i can't get the above link to take me to the right page.
so i bumped it today. look in General Discussion for "shellac for color, then...?" lots of good advice in it, as well as the other thread i'm trying to find.
i am also searching for some 'after' photos of my floors, but they are in my old harddrive from before a major crash and it may take a while. i also don't have many photos of after of the lovely bare floor- we had to move too much furniture in asap. it was SOOOoo lovely looking at the finally clean empty house for a short while-
Edited 10/2/2007 2:14 pm ET by msm-s
I would really like to see the pictures of your floor if you find them.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
> How would I go about finishing the floor with shellac?Once the floor is sanded and cleaned of dust, pour shellac from the can onto the floor and spread it out. Brushes can be used, or you can use something like a mop.> I do not want a "built up" looking finishing and I don't want a
> gloss finish.You won't get a built-up look with shellac, but it will be sort of glossy. Once the finish has hardened (a day or two), use a screen in a power buffer to dull the gloss a bit.> I want a light stain. Something like golden oak or golden pecan
> where it looks more yellow than brown or red.You probably want an amber shellac. Shellac naturally comes in several colors; typically "orange", "amber", and "clear." There's also "de-waxed", which isn't needed for this application.> I'm going to apply the finish with a lambs wool type of applicator
> and don't want to get down on my hands and knees with a brush.This should work perfectly.> I want a floor that looks perfect and it looks like a professional
> floor finisher did the floor.Shellac is great for this. If there's an imperfection, shellac is a solution - an evaporative finish. Just use a little alcohol (or a lot) and a clean rag, and your problem will usually go away. Of course, God help you if someone spills a strong drink on your floor.George Patterson
Orange shellac is quite likely the finish that was used on the floor and on the woodwork originally. I happen to love it. While we use it on the woodwork in our house, on the floor I do go with poly. It has a bit more durability is some ways (primarily the spill alcohol way) and seems to have a bit more give for seasonal movement.Still shellac might be a great choice. I'm not sure exactly how it would be applied to a floor. I wonder how an HVLP sprayer might work?BTW, there are a lot more shellacs than just clear and amber/orange, but that is neither here nor there.
This is the floor I'm working on (see enclosed pictures)Thanks again for you input^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
You mentioned taking a gallon of shellac and adding two gallons of denatured alcohol to it.The gallon of shellac plus the denatured alcohol will cost $30 + $14 + $14 equals $58. Plus I will buy a quart of amber to give it some color.So add another $10 and I'm at $68.I don't know if the shellac is worth the extra expense. Home depot has polyurethane for $16 a gallon.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
mrfixitusa.
Well, how much did you spend sanding the floor? How long did it take? Add those costs and compare it to stripping the floor further into the future with shellac.. I would suspect that say 500 sq.ft could be stripped completely with about two maybe three gallons of Denatured alcohol and a brillo pad. Time involved I'd guess at based on stripping shellac off my piano would be around 3 hours..
So do a full comparison. First the last $10 you spent is more like a stain so of course you have to figure the cost of staining the floor plus the polyurethane.Now you are more like $58 to $36 (assuming that a gallon of polurethane covers 500 sq.ft properly and the stain is about $20 a gallon {I'm Guessing} ) plus realize that polurethane is softer (and $16 dollar a gallon is much softer than the better polurethanes)
Now you need to add something for clean up.. that lambs wool applicator will use a fair bit unless you were planning on tossing it in which case you should add that back into the costs..
OK add the cost of renting a sander, and buying sand paper. since we're dealing with soft polyurethanes say at a two to one ratio. that is you'll want to strip the floor twice using polurethanes while you'll only need to do it once (if ever, remember the ease of repairing or touching up shellac) But let's assume that you do it once and Denatured alcohol costs $14 a gallon (and you buy three gallons for a total of$42.00 plus a brillo pad at $4.00 (it's not really a brillo pad it's one of those "plastic" brillo pads they sell ) you'll have $46.00 to well how much did you pay for the sander rental plus sand paper times two.
As for time, One fast coat of polyurthane compared to three coats of shellac is faster but then you need to wait (plus breathe those fumes for how long?) If two coats are called for then shellac wins hands down.. and stripping, I don't know anybody who can properly sand 500 sq.ft in less than 4 hours so stripping shellac saves at least an hour. Plus you can go right into shellacing where sanding calls for at least a day to allow the dust to properly settle.
Hopefully that will be enough information for you to make a good decision.. I know that the greeness of shellac isn't a dollar value but alcohol plus shellac is something not to be feared while the ingrediants of most polurethanes usually have health and safty warnings with them.. shellac is infinately renewable while polurethanes aren't.
One final arguement.. I've never smelled a pleasant polyurthane and they take a long time to dry.. the smell of alcohol reminds me of a docters office so that's not pleasant but it's gone in a few minutes if the windows are open.. the soft sweet smell of shellac does linger around for a couple of hours but even if I'm working late into the night it's never present the next morning..
Who makes the polyurethane? If it's not McClosky, I wouldn't put it on my floors.George Patterson
I re-read the information you provided and wanted to thank you again. I like your technique for putting gloss on first and finishing with satin.Thanks again for taking the time for providing all the information.
^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
mrfixitusa,
If you seek a satin finish please do regular shellac first.. that should convince you that satin isn't the way to go.. If you do as I suggested, the overthinned approach you can stop after two coats if you want a less glossy finish. What will happen is the pores in the wood won't be completely filled in and like sandblasted glass be less shiney.. (yet still bring out the natural beauty of the wood) ..
Try this approach, take just a little shellac and thin it and wipe a spot with the shellac and denatured alcohol.. You most likely won't have to do anything else . If you aren't happy some denatured alcohol will wipe it off in seconds..
Shellac isn't going to bond to the existing finish, but it would be a decent choice once this finish was sanded off.George Patterson