I have a few questions regarding installing the cabinet above the fridge and the 2 side panels. The cabinet is 24″ deep and I need to bump it out 6″ from the wall. I’m confident I’ll come up with something rock solid to frame the bump out…in fact probably overkill…knowing me.<g> But if anyone one can offer any suggestions or drawings showing how the pro’s would frame that 6″ bump out, I’d greatly appreciate it.
I also have another concern, which is why I posted this in the first place…On the left side of the fridge, there are wall and base cabinets. I’ll screw the side panel(3/4″ Birch ply) and the fridge cabinet to them, along with screwing the cabinet to the bump out frame. As for the right side, it’s the end of the line…just the side panel. I’d like to attach the RH panel by shooting some 15ga finish nails>>and glue??<< instead of screws. Then I can just fill the nail holes instead of making plugs to cover the exposed screws. I’ll also screw a 1X backer to the wall behind the fridge so the side panel can be nailed there too. Here’s where my concern is. Will the nails and glue be sufficient to support that 36″w X 24″d X 15″h cabinet? Maybe I should use a few metal brackets with screws behind the panel? All the other cabinets are Rock Solid, so I want to be sure this one is too. After all…this is my first kitchen install<G>
One other thing…the side panels are 86″ tall and not 84″. Is there a reason for the extra 2″? Seems a little excessive for scribing to the floor. These cabinets will also have crown molding. I doubt the extra 2″ has anything to do with that, but I’m not positive. BTW…never done crown molding either. lol But like everything else I’ve done, I’ll learn!!
Thanks for anything you can offer
Replies
Dont mean to be rude but it sounds like your first kitchen install a drawing would be good
You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
Not quite sure I understand what your asking...
If you want me to post a drawing, forget it. No clue how to do one on a PC. I do have the plan from my cabinet guy who designed the layout, but no scanner.
Fasten the over reefer cab to the side panel as you have fastened the other cabs to each other-through the stiles. Your screw length might be shorter. Go through the cab stile into the reefer side panel.
Fasten the reefer panel to a cleat running down the wall. Again, no visible screws outside the panel, screw through the cleat into the panel.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 6/6/2006 7:18 am ET by calvin
Here's one pulled out about 5''. I also fasten the bottom of the cabinet to the wall and the side panel in a similar fashion, through the side of the cab (bottom) into the panel/wall.
View ImageA great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Understand clearly now. Thanks! I was hoping you might see this thread and reply. :)
Nice work too!!
btw...hope you knee is healing OK. Sucks not being able to work when your hurt. I've been out for 5 weeks due to a car accident. Gotta go back tomorrow, and actually glad to.
The 3/4 can be made ok if you don't try to suck up the panel to the cab. And don't predrill too far! And the right screw, hand tightened the last 1/4, don't want to run it in with the clutch setting too strong. Use clamps whenever possible.
When you build the bump out, keep it a bit shy of 6''. You can always shim it a bit, but can't mash it back in there.
The stitches are healing well. Just can't bend the damn thing. Swollen up like a poisonous toad. Have to miss the 3mangolfleauge tomorrow. Sucks. Thanks for the thoughts and best of luck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
"When you build the bump out, keep it a bit shy of 6''. You can always shim it a bit, but can't mash it back in there."
Ahha...glad you mentione that!! Makes alot of sense. Good chance I would have gone with 6" and then found out the hard way...after the fact. Thanks!!
Edited 6/6/2006 9:31 am ET by caveman
Glad to be of service.
Says in the profile you're on the east coast. You going to the Fest on long island?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
As much as I'd like to, I won't be going to Tiptifest.
Someday though, I hope to attend one and meet the BT bunch.
I know the refrigerator looks good in an enclose cabinet, but its energy efficiency is Shot.
Most refrigerators discharge its hot air out the back. Being in a cabinet, the hot air would be heating up all the sides, except the front.
My solution would be to divert or channel the hot air to the underfloor, sides or kick-panels with diverter socks wedged between the walls and refrigerator.
except for the sub zero which has the compressor on the top, most bottom compressors expel the warm air out the bottom front. Enclosing the frig doesn't do too much to limit the flow of air provided you follow the clearance dimensions offered by the manufacturer.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Ok, but don't the condensor coils on the back give off heat? And I don't believe there is any mechanical aid to move that warmed air. Therefore teh space heats up and the coils don't work as well.
What do you think?
the newer reefers have the coils enclosed, probably so they don't pre-warm the waterline. If you follow the clearances suggested in the install manual I don't believe you'll have a problem. If you are worried, don't enclose the unit.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Mine has the coils enclosed and the exhaust exits out the front.
I'm starting to see alot more refers that don't had the coils on the back, they have them on the bottom. Same with freezers.
I would suspect this is to do with the "built in" trend that has been going on lately. Clearences have been tightened up in the last 10-15 years too.
Even Seras has come out with a cabinet depth refer that is more in the price range of a standard side by side than a $$$sub zero$$$
The coils on most new friges are in the bottom behind the grill.
Air is pulled in from the front. There is some openings in the back for air flow, but not like in the old friges where you pulled the frig out to clean the condenser coils in the large opening in the back.Most manufacturers recommend 1" on each side and 1 or 2" on top for circulation. You will effect energy use, but many folks shoehorn them in. An energy star frig uses 45% of the electricity of a 9 year old unit.By the way, the new energy star units run as much as 90% of the time and that means the condenser coil needs a frequent cleaning.Mine was cleaned six months ago and when I recently cleaned it, it looked like the dryer lint trap.Pete
"Mine was cleaned six months ago and when I recently cleaned it, it looked like the dryer lint trap."
If you have pets, inspect it more often. We usually do it every 2-3 months just to prevent problems.
The panel is only 3/4". Is that enough meat?
I thought of that, but didn't think it would be strong enough. Coming from you...I'm sure it will be!! I take it no glue is needed if I go that way?
Oh yeah...cleat is what I was talking about. I used 'backer' cause I couldn't think of another name at 1AM. I'll run it the full length from the floor to the bump out frame.
As far as the side panels being 86"--they're probably made this tall as a standard for the usual 8' distance from floor to ceiling.
Make a frame behind the fridge using 2x6's and face with 1/2" plywood to get the 6" you need (I'd go with birch and finish it the same way as the side panels so it looks nice when they pull the fridge out). I assume the side panels are only about as deep as the fridge without the bump out? Those I've seen though were about 34" deep. (I'm wondering about the seam between the panel on the right and your bump out--would be nice if you could nail the panel to the right edge of the bump out.)
I think attaching the cabinet over the fridge with screws to the bump out (the bump out having been built with something like 2 studs to screw the back of the cabinet to) and screws to the side of the cabinets on the left side of the fridge will be enough. Wall cabinets that end a run don't have any support on one side either and they are sturdy. If you are really concerned (sounds like you are) try to locate some ceiling joists and screw the top of the cabinet to one of the joists (if you have crown, you may have to screw a cleat (spacer) to the ceiling into the joists, which would actually be even better IMO). Most people don't store horseshoe sets and bowling balls over their fridge anyway.
Ahhh...use plywood with the bump out framing. Thank you my good man!!! Didn't even think of that. That should make it as strong as the cabinet I imagine. No bowling balls in my cabinets...at least I hope not <G>
edited for correction...The panel is 33" deep and the fridge is 31 1/2" including the doors. With the cabinet bumped out 6", the end result will be a built in look...if that's what it can be called.
I'm curious why you say the 86" is standard for 8' ceilings. 8' = 96"
I have 8' ceilings, but the cabinets are 84". No soffits are used, so the crown will be attached to the cabinets. Unless I'm missing something...or possibly confused you with my post...I didn't plan on any attachment to the ceiling.
Edited 6/6/2006 9:08 am ET by caveman
Apparently, it's too bad that the refrigerator is so fat. The slim line models don't require these 6" buildouts.
I've heard of some that recess these fat reefers into the back wall.
Fat it is!! It weighs a TON too!!
Funny thing is...even though it's huge, my DW still says it's not big enough.
I've seen the recessed ones and great idea. Too late for that though.
When I build I will recess the frig. A bit fussy, but not difficult.
My bad on the 86" equalling 8 feet--I was thinking 96". I've got to re-read what you wrote--I'm apparently not understanding much! Wait, I think I understand--we did the same thing in the last cabinet installation we did, now that I think about it--you are just bumping out the cabinet that's over the fridge! Okay. The guy I sub with just nailed a bunch of 2x6's together to fur out behind the cabinet and I thought that sucked. I think a framed box is much nicer and more solid. It was on the other side, above a built in stove that the guy was worried about the upper cabinet and there the crown mold went to the ceiling and there was space above the cabinet, so we did nail a spacer across the ceiling and screwed the top of the cabinet to that, then hid it with the crown.
Note--with the cabinet covering the bump out, unless there is no back on the cabinet, nice birch plywood would be a waste--no one will ever see it, even with the fridge out. I can't remember how Marc attached the cabinet to the panel on the side where there were no cabinets beyond the panel--maybe some very short screws from inside the cabinet. There was a bench at the base of the panel in our case, so he shot a couple brads into the bench near the floor to keep the panel from moving. On ours the panels were tall and they did go to the ceiling, even though the other wall cabs were about 10" below the ceiling and crown attached directly to them and not the ceiling.
No sweat for the error. I figured it might just be a typo. I still haven't figured what the purpose is with my panels being 86", but since no one said not to, I'll just trim the excess off.
I have some scrap plywood kicking around and I'll use that to box the bumpout framing...if that's what you mean, not the Birch. The Birch ply is what the side panels are and they are pre finished on both sides. The cabinet does have a back to it also
I'm going to follow what calvin said and use shorter screws through the stiles of the reefer cabinet into the RH side panel. Initially, I had doubts about the way I was going to mount the 24" cabinet. It just didn't seem to be very secure with just 2 mounting places...the lefts side cabinets and the bump out frame. Now I'll be good to go, using the ply on the bump out framing.
Thanks again for what you offered, it was exactly what I was hoping for.
You're welcome--hope it all works out well for you. Yeah, make sure those screws don't go through the good face--been there and watched the guy I work with do that--once on a Formica counter top! (Also, I suppose you know to predrill and countersink when attaching the stiles with screws--I've seen those split and it's not pretty!)
Edited to correct spelling and grammar! (I hope!)
Edited 6/7/2006 12:43 pm ET by Danno
Any new fridge I have seen in the past 10+ years vents out the bottom, not really much need to worry about ventilation.We deal with your situation all the time. If on an interior wall our solution is to build an alcove for it. Even if you have to do it now it may not be all that tough and will keep the front lines of the cabinets looking better. Where we have to build out we just use 31" gables, you could likely exchange the 25" you have unless they are a custom finish. The cabinet gets screwed to the gables only which 6-8 screws per side. If you want to fill the gap between the cabinet an wall you could use a filler though unless you are worried about stuff falling through it is not structurally needed.
Oh yeah, tall gables are always left long so you can trim them to length. Often an install will have the cabinets and inch+/- of the floor due to the need to keep them level on an unlevel floor. This allows the gable to come all the way down to to floor and not have to be shimmed too.
'Gables'...so that's what their(side panels)called? Makes sense...common sense actually. <g>
So the extra 2" is just for uneven floors. Thanks, now I know. I've only heard of 84" and 96", so 86" was a little odd. I was going to ask the guy I got the cabs from, but I bought them 2 yrs ago and didn't want to bother him. I finished the cabinet installation a yr ago, except for the reefer cabinet...I dragged my feet a little for that one.
I'm not sure if your previous post was directed at Danno or me, my gabels are 33" not 25". But when you mention the alcove, how would that work when the interior wall is 2X4? It'd be nice if the fridge was flush with the base cabinet face, but that would mean the backside of the fridge would stick out in the adjoining room. I could build up the wall thickness, I imagine.
We have done a couple of methods to recess the fridge. One of the best is to literaly frame an opening in the wall. Replace the drywall on the back side with 1/2" MDF. You can tape the joints as if it were drywall and paint it up. It will blend into the wall and be tough enough to hang pictures on. You just gained 4" to recess the fridge into.In a couple of instances we were unable to demo the wallboard on the back side for one reason or another. What we do then is frame the opening and glue 1/4" MDF to the backside of the drywall. Not quite as tough but still does the job. You have gained 3 3/4" for the fridge.
Since I haven't touched it yet, I'll have to give some thought to it. I like the idea the more I think about it.
One minor issue though...the wall is a load bearing wall. It lies directly below the 2 story peak. I can build a temporary support no problem, but the header or whatever other requirements are a little out of my league. Actually alot out of my league!! Maybe I need an engineer? If that's the case, I'll probably pass. My DW has been patiently waiting for me to finish this project. Anymore delays and she'll probably shoot me <G>
If it is load bearing you would need to provide temporary support, simply a temp wall on either side of the opening. Because the opening only needs to be a high as the fridge you would have plenty of room for a 2 ply 2x10 beam, our just buy a 3'6" 11 7/8 x 3 1/2 LVL beam from your lumber supplier, either of which would carry the load. Care would need to be taken to ensure the point loads on either side bear through the joist cavity on to the beam below. It would be a good idea to get someone local to have a look at it to best determine the right solution. Look at it this way, you certainly must have openings through the wall in other places at least the width you would need for the fridge. Do make sure it is done properly, it is not a big job at all, but could be blundered (I have seen this lots in many homes we have worked on)
"Care would need to be taken to ensure the point loads on either side bear through the joist cavity on to the beam below."
No doubt about that. Yes there are other openings in the wall. In fact right next to the fridge, is a doorway. The gable panel will be located about 6" from it. I'm sure that will have some cause for concern...replace the existing header with a larger one maybe? Like I said...out of my league and not afraid to admit it.
I know someone local that would be familar with the specifics involved. His company builds multi level parking garages. I'll see what he has to say before I do anything.
Thanks
Something to consider is that reefers, even the less deep ones, generally are recessed up the edge of the reefer cab without the doors. As you will see when you open the door, you need clearance on the sides so the door opens more than 90 degrees so roll out shelves, ice bin etc work. Unless there's serious side clearance, you can't shove it back in so the doors are flush with the side panels.
Also, make sure you have clearance at the top of the reefer door hinge and the bottom of the cab. over it. Have seen several instances with full overlay doors that won't open all the way because of the hinge cover.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I had already set the cab and panels in place with clamps to see how it worked out. The cab doors open fine without hitting the top hinge covers. I also opened the fridge doors and no problem there, with the panels flush with the face of the fridge doors. But I will admit...oops...I didn't swing the fridge doors fully open. Ouch!! LOL Not the end of the world, but that would have sucked if I had to take it all apart and cut off that 1 1/2" to correct it. Of course it wouldn't be the first time I had to do something twice<G>
Meet me in the tavern and I'll buy ya a couple rounds. You saved my butt with that!!
Just means you don't have to push it all the way back. Have had jobs where the fridge is pretty mobile, easily goes back in the hole when you close the door. Have been know to slip a "don't go back that far" block in behind it.
Thanks man, usually you have to hold a gun to their head.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Duh...that'd work too View Image
:)
Bear, I have some ideas, but how do you supply power to the frig and water to teh ice maker in such a situation?
Power comes in from the side and the water usually from below but could also come from the side too.
bear, DUH! LOL! HOw do you set a power box in the side through what is likely at least a double stud (jack to support header and full stud)? Is there a special type of box?
If it is load bearing you could just set the studs back 3" to accomodate the box. Alternately you could put the box in the side of the adjoining cabinet and run the cord into it. Dependant upon the fridge configuration on the bottom you could also do a floor mount plug.If you think about it there are tons of options available. Hard wire back to panel, run to a dedicated outlet below the floor, put the box in the cabinet above. We have never had any problems getting either the water or elecricity to the fridge when installing the fridge into a recessed alcove.
Edited 8/14/2006 2:24 pm ET by BearLeeAlive
Bear, as I said "I had some ideas". Just wondering about the easiest and or cleanest.
Yep...know all about predrilling and countersink. I wouldn't even think of trying to run a screw in without predrilling this stuff. I don't know a whole lot about wood species as far as hardness, other than Oak/hard and Pine/soft, but this Birch sure seems like hard stuff. I could tell when I predrilled.
"(I'd go with birch and finish it the same way as the side panels so it looks nice when they pull the fridge out)."
Good point about when you pull the fridge out. My 33" X 86" panels are finished both sides, so no worries there.
"If you are really concerned (sounds like you are)"
I'll admit...just like Imerc says...I'm a little analitical :-} My real concern was mostly because of the 6" bump out. The cantilever effect that the cabinet would have.
Edited 6/6/2006 9:10 am ET by caveman