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That is just crazy talk, I am and always have been way to lazy to put siding and windows on, then try to lift one up! Jacks or not, all I can see is alot of work and money come slipping or siding down……CRASH……..Oh sh*t! Frame um, sheath um, and stand um up! Put the next deck on and do it again.
I guess it would be alot less work to build the roof on the ground, shingle it then just build the house under it(no high work or falling hazard).
JUST KIDDING(don’t get offended)Those wolverines up there are a strange breed, us Buckeyes just know how to get things done! KC
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Blue Eyed Devil,
Here in Idaho we build walls and sheath them than stand 'em. Most of the homes I work on are million $ plus and attempting to side etc. etc. the walls down would be a train wreck. Although I did work in Montana many years ago and we built simple houses that way. If you are having problems with the math try building a spread sheet (MS excel, or claris office) that does the math for you. That spread sheet could also act as a punch list so you do not forget the bricks etc. I built one for roof framing that you might find useful. If interested send me an Email. Keep stirring the pot :}
Dormer
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Don't be so hard on yourself! The modular stuff has it's place, and obviously it worked for you.
Remodeling is a different beast. Often the walls of an addition are so short that it is just as easy to throw the overhans on off a ladder. The tie-ins are often trickeier, and the house that you are attaching to is out of plumb two ways.
I've heard of guys pre building the walls on a 2 story addition. They then swing them up onto the second deck with a crane much the same as you do.
MOst of those crews specialize in that type of remodeling, and will actually open and "dry in" the second story in one day (depending on the complexity of course)! They have everything pre built, and attack the tear-off and deck building with a large crew (ten guys or so). When they go home at night the shingles are on. Usually though, the second story additions are rectangular boxes, and quite easy.
I despise remodeling, and would probably work at the mobil station if I had to remodel for the rest of my life!
Oh yeah, your not banned, yet!
*Joe, I haven't been there company owner has. I know that some previous posts have beat up on these in the past, but I find the "overall" quality of these to be pretty good.2x10 floor joist, 2x6 walls(the boss insists), Andersen windows (sorry Blue), 2x10 ceiling joist, roof 16"oc pitch typically 7/12 high enough for usable attic space. Trim from the factory poplar no finger-joint. Some have been carpeted others we have installed hardwood floors on site.Same for baths some have been just vinyl others we have done in ceramic tile on site. There not for everybody and really seem to work best on your basic 50's ranch.All of them have apprasied higher than cost when homeowners have refinaced.
*It sounds interesting Frank. The houses must be relatively small, and tidy (no offsets, changes in plate height,etc.)It would be a nightmare, on the custom homes, that are standard around here. I would be very curious about the "savings" in labor, that the prebuilding of the deck, actually achieved. For every "pre-frame" there is a bracing, positioning, and fastening factor. I used to put all my gables on the walls, and stand them up complete. I then began to notice that a substantial amount of time, was used to properly brace the beasts,and the actual amount of time to stand them could become significant. I now (usually) set the finished gable with the crane. It takes about five minutes for a big one! I used to have a small crane (a foolish employee rolled it), and often contemplated the benefits of presheeting a small set of trusses, similar to what you are talking about. I never got a chance, 'cause that homes that I frame are usually cut up roofs. In fact, every time I analized it, I came to the conclusion that there would be zero advantage. The big savings with a crane is the ability to stage the roof sheathing ,at the level that you are working. I'd send up 20 sheets at a time with kickers in tow, and set them on simple racks. The guys would never have to leave the roof. If they were framing/sheathing it 100' high, it would be the same as 4' high! The only factor would be safety. And that might be a wash, because moving around huge structures is dangerous indeed! I have thought of framing the roofs on the lower decks like you describe, but never thought of building both decks at the same time. I could see a potential big savings, if the roofs are steep. I would tilt the second deck, with the roof attached and make the steep roof walkable!I had thought about doing that, but never attempted it. The most we pre-frame roofs now, is the trussd hip ends that have 20 jacks attached with hangers etc. I also pre-framed some lay-on roofs, but eventually decided that it was quicker to send the pre-cut packages up in a bundle, and erect it piecework style.Sometimes the pre-builders can get caried away! Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it makes sense, timewise or quality wise. Often, I see young bucks pre-building monstrous things, that require them to be working off ladders to reach! That alone defeats the purpose, and the bracing and lifting time increase dramatically.The practice of pre-building originates from the hand nailing era. We tried to build everything down on the groud, to avoid nailing upside down, on flimsy sections of the overhang. Today, the guns makes much of that thinking obsolete. Now the wise carpenter must calculate the time a scaffold takes, over the bracing and lifting factors. The young bucks just don't get it, and I'm not going to tell them!Oh yeah, I'm in the market to find a small boom truck. I'd need 70' reach minimum, on a decent frame. I don't want to spend more than $20,000. My last one was a little small, and I paid $7,000. It was a nice convienience to have around the jobsite.Blue
*I've also built million dollar houses, and find that they are the most important ones to prebuild,as they usually have higher ceilings, and walkouts. They also tend to have large two story rooms that have large windows and chimney chases attached!Thanks for the idea about spred sheets. I don't think that would change my error rate, because most of my errors are simple stupid input mistakes. For instance, on the last house, I figured the pine and fit it to a 2x10 header. After framing the wall, I realixed that I had needed a 2x12 header, and the pine would now be two inches too high. Luckily, there were a sufficient amount of 1x8 lnsite, and I simply used a 1x8 frieze to make the change. Since I caught this mental error prioor to building the overhangs, it didn't set me back anything.I can usually figure the pine quite accurately with my simple calculater. Most carpenters figure the pine off the actual truss, but I'm too lazy to walk all the way down there! Especially since alot of the time I can figure the pine in my head! After all, how hard is it to figure the amount of drop on a 12" run?! Thanks again.Blue
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Blue, I also used the same methods you described.If your calculations are correct you end up with a better finished product because it's always easier to apply windows,trim,and siding on the deck than 30 ft up.On a couple of jobs the homeowner caulked and painted before we stood the wall up but, they were lucky enough to hit them at the end of the day.I am also from SE Mi so it could be a regional thing.
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I've never heard of the paint and caulking being done!
I know it's done in New York also, or so I've heard.
That was why I posted this thread. I was just curious how others did it in the different states.
The assembly of the overhang is superior to stick building off a scaffold, especially the nailing thru the soffit into the frieze, unless they build the overhang prior to sheathing.
*Blue, as a trim guy, like whoever posted before me(he's too far up there to get his name now), your method bugs me a bit, too. Now, don't take this the wrong way, cause I don't wear asbestos underwear, but I have never seen this method done right. I'm not saying it can't be, or, that you don't, but I have seen some messes. As a matter of fact, all I see are messes. So, I've got some questions, that, well answered, could sure help some framers that I work behind.With sheathing and/or let-ins, windows, siding, soffit, etc. on, how do you rack the wall plumb when you get it up? Means a lot for installing cabinets, stairwells, bookcases, and the always neglected door.How do you make sure the windows (you don't do the doors this way too, do you?) are inside the framing, the thickness of the sheetrock? How do you get the jambs, sills and headers straight. I only ask because the brick mould (or whatever mold) is not always straight, or even nailed to the window frame with an even reveal. I am all for production, but not at the sake of "you gets it done, and I gets to fix it."Framers here can't even get it right when they are stick building. I shouln't complain, cause it's job security for me, but I just got a thing about a good job. BB
*And you should be concerned BB.We rack the wall plumb before we sheath it. When the wall is stood up, it is plumb!We make sure the window jamba are inside the sheetrock by raising the wall about 6 ". That seems to be enough room for the windows to drop in nicelt. After the wall is standing, sometimes we have to rap them in a little to get the sheetrock margins correct. We don't do the doors this way.The jambs are straight automatically, unless the framer uses two lousy choices of lumber for the window stud, and the doubler (the jack). usually, a 2x10 header is nailed uptight for the head jamb, so it is also straight. We cut the bottom cripples the same length, and that automatically makes the rough sill paralell with the floor which is level. Remember, we aren't framing on slabs, so everything is automatically level if you've snapped a line and framed the wall to it.Believe me BB, the trimmers would be screaming (and back charging us) if we weren't getting it right. You can put a level anywhere, and if we've done a decent job, it will read plumb. And everything is level and straight too.Are your houses on slabs, or decks?
*If you'd like to see what style houses that I frame, using the "get_it_all_done_while_the_wall_is_laying_down" method, go to http://homesbychirco.com/ I just found out today that they have a website up. They are showing a house in the rough that I framed one house ago. I got $23,060.00 for roughing it.Blue
*Working alone, I stick frame out of necessity. Aint got no guys, aint got no jacks, but I'm wanting to buy some jacks before I build my next house. What kind are you using Blue? I've looked at the Proctors and have rented them before. If there's something better out there I'd like to find out about them in the very near future.JonC
*blue, here we use "the build them sheath them stand them up way" I also use double plates and raise the interior walls and tie them back to the wall on the tops before adding the top or next layer. Have heard about the way you do things would have to see it done as I'm not smart enough to figure this out on my own, without looking like a fool while I do it. Have watched people build and stack including the roof. It won't work with someone small like me, but in a devoploment where there is so few changes(track type) this ways allows things to fly with a small crew. Maybe I'll get you to do a tape and sent it to me.
*Blue, we've got pretty nice weather here. You ever think about movin'? Got the ocean, too. You can make money all year long, and still go fishing.I would love to work behind a framer I could backcharge. I could retire much sooner. BB
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BB, I am a trimmer that goes behind and used to frame like Blue does. There's no difference between it and other's it's just a matter of the quality of the crew either way. My biggest problem is a header that sticks out past the studs and cripples so the window is no longer flush with the drywall.Is bucksnort a breeding sound you make?
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Thats a good question Jon. Im using a pair that I bought 10 years ago. The boom is made of 2 2x4's nailed together. A hand winch is attachedto a simple metal frame.
I'll get the brand mname from my supplier and post it.
I've stood up some pretty big walls alone (my ex partner used to go on extended vacations). Since we used to work alone, I'd have to vacation too, or work alone. I worked.
The longest wall that I recall standing alone was a 32'x 10' long garage wall with a 16' micro, and 8' garage door header, complete with overhangs. It's important to have braces attached on the outside that will stop the wall from going over.
*Blue, I learned to frame in Buffalo. Now, I live 60 miles down the road in Rochester. Here in Upstate New York, walls are built, squared, and sheathed on the deck. Gable end walls will be built on the deck including the overhang. We generally do not install windows until the roof is complete. We install fascia by leaning off the top plate. Once the first floor deck is built, I think that it is good practice to build the garage walls first, so that there is a good flat surface to square them. Blue, what are your thoughts on that? Blue, you said you don't like remodeling. That is typical of a true framer. You guys don't like anything that isn't fresh. I do mostly remodeling, but if I have a slow time, I frame with my buddies in Buffalo. Cheers
*I've seen a lot of crews frame tha garage on the deck as you've described. That involves picking it up and carying it, after it is framed. It takes a larger crew than I usually work with.I actually prefer to build the garage walls out in the mud myself. I balance a double layer of 2x10's as a ramp/scaffold, near the top plate. I take care to make it reasonably straight, because this eases the installation of the ovehang. I like to work out there because I don't have to bend so low to reach my work, and my back doesn't like bending.I have only built one 2 car garage in the last several years. Most are 31/2 cars wide, and usually about 28 feet deep. They are also 10-13' high depending on the grade. Anything over 11' gets doubled studs.Were not going to be walking around with those monsters!Remodeling and framing are two different beasts. I like the faster rythem of framing. I like being alone, knowing that the only mistakes that I have to deal with are my own. In remodeling, weird things make your life difficult. And you have to have every tool in your truck. Ane most remodelers work 65 hrs per week in the summer, only to go broke again in the winter.Remodeling sucks, but if I have to , I can so it. I'm a master boogerer!Blue
*Blue, It is not uncommon for framing crews around here to have a Skytrack (sp?) or Lull to move materials and move/stand walls. In fact, my buddy in Buffalo has a Lull. He no longer needs a young buck to haul materials. He will put on a load of joists or rafters and lift them up to the second story. It saves a lot of work, and its just the ticket for garage walls. Alot of what you've said about remodeling is true. You do need a lot more tools than a framer, and any number of things can screw you up. To be a good remodeler, you need to know about a lot more things than a framer does. ; >) I'm lucky enough to be making some built-in cabinets this week. Which is a good thing. If I were framing, there would have been 42" of snow to shovel off the deck this past Monday. Cheers
*Shoveling that much snow sounds a ton more interesting!I've investigated the skytrack. They wouldn't work around here because the lots are usually too small.A boom truck is the ticket. If you can have one every day, it changes the order of framing significantly, in way that streamlines and speeds up the job.Even when I had a boom truck, I still framed the garage in place. I like framing the garage, because the studs and plate are 12" closer, and when it's time for the overhang, it's at a perfect height. Blue
*I started framing in southern Ontario. We framed much the same way as you, although we didn't install windows or siding till after the roof was on. In Ontario we nailed our wall sheathing vertically (8' side parallel with the studs) that was just the way we did it I never questioned it. About 6 years ago I moved to British Columbia, here code requires that the sheathing is installed with the strength axis perpendicular to the studs as you would install sheathing on a roof. The code also requires a space between the horizontal sheathing to let the wall breath in our extremely wet climate. Which direction do you install the sheathing in your area?
*Vertically. The horizontal method is actually easier, but the joint is undesirable.I don't usually space wall sheathing either. I haven't had any trouble yet.Blue
*Ok Blue I've read this for the tenth time and I need some help.What is a Pine?What is your heel?What do you call a frieze block?Here a frieze is a block that goes between exposed tail rafters?
*Pine is the term we use to describe the overhangs. If a carpenter walks up looking for work, and he says he knows how to do pine, that would mean that he knows how to build all the overhangs , down on the walls, and also know how to "tie the corners". Surprisingly, a substantial number of them will also follow with a disclaimer; "I have a little trouble figuring it, but once you give me the pine line, I'm good to go from there".Figuring the "pine line" is so basic, that I taught my rookies how to do it in 1 minute!A "heel" is the amount of material left at the outside wall line, on the rafter/truss. Some call it the "meat"?The heel is the starting point for all calculations. It is the top of the roof frame, in the vertical plane of the exterior wall sheathing. In the olden days of 2x16 rafters, we always left a 4" heel.I couldn't find any text that I wrote that said "frieze block". IN our world, the frieze is the lowest member of a closed overhang system. I've never built a house that had exposed rafters. That's probably why we don't have frieze blocks!Sorry about posting a message that needs to be read ten times! I wish it were clearer. Too bad I don't know how to uplad pics to a website.Do you do a lot of open overhang systems? Blue
*There are alot of open overhang systems ( exposed rafter ends) here in the rainy NW and I prefer them. My predjudice stems from prior years of rehab for resale on older houses. I've never bought a project house with covered soffits that didnt have problems from vermin, bugs and water. I'm a little fuzzy on why they are supposed to be better.Blue, I'm still waiting to hear from you about those jacks, and now you've got me thinking about a used boom truck. Especially after the set to I had with the driver on my last truss delivery. I think the guy that did the previous delivery just existed to lull me into truss day complacency.Looking to stay off a ladder, I've been reading up on sheathing and siding gable end trusses prior to raising. The pictures I've seen show them being raised with a sling through the gable end vent. Anybody have any thoughts on the best way to raise them if you dont have a vent in the gable end? Thanks, JonC
*Sorry about the wait, I don't know what they are called, as I bought the last set at my steel/nail supplier. I haven't been there in a while, because I have my nails stockpiled. I'll call around on monday, if I can't find a tag out in the barn today.Anyways, I've set the gable using several different methods. Sometimes, I build/sheet the gable on top of the walls, and then tilt it up. This method might take a little more time, if the walls don't give the frame enough support to walk on it. Then we have to provide a little more support, using legs down to the deck, in the weak areas.My preferred method is to swing the gable up. We attach the cables using basically two methods. We punch a small hole through the sheathing, and wrap the top chord, when the gable is bricked, or sided later. If we are going to side the wall with wood siding, attaching the cables has to be planned before you sheath the gable. I typically run a strongback (a simple 2x4 on edge, sometimes a 2x6) on the attic side of the gable studs. If I know I will need to hook on these, I extend them out past the top chord, about a foot. These are very handy to hook to. Nail them good if you have aheavy load. The gable will lean a little in the air, but not enough to cause problems.One other item should be installed first, when you are going to swing them. Attach a continous 2x4 on edge at the bottm of the gable. This will give you an easy method of fastening to the wall, and also provide drywall backing.One question about the wet closed soffit systems. How does the water get into the closed area? If they are properly nailed tight, and caulked, and painted, they should be water tight.Blue
*Blue.... My hat goes off to you, As I have just read this entire post for the first time. You have definitly seem to have mastered your specialization in the building field. I am intriuged by the fact that you can use your brain and simple math to save your back a lot of toil and hard work, which by the sounds of it you have not avioded in your learning experience. I to have found that by using your brain you can be aroung longer to teach all us youngsters new tricks, so far what I have learned is that you have learned to build modular housing on site, make money, and from the looks of the house on the chirco(?) website you do a good job building complex custom homes. I do have a few questions that bucksnort came up with, that has been something of a concern with me as well. First lets just say that I"m down here in the Carolinas as well, and I also have to go behind the framers( My lips are zipped), and have found many a day where I walk away shaking my head. Anyways I digress..... First question, What do you do when the deck is out of level, with your system there is no way for you to have any walls in the actual sense of plum when your deck is even 1/4 of an inch off, it will always be close enough. It will always be out of plum in one direction or another no matter how small, I didn't think the great blue would settle for close enough. Second question... If you install a square window in an opening( of coarse which is also square), and you raise that wall and install it an a non level plane, will that window become self leveling, and operated perfectly everyday like it should in a NEW home. How many times, will I see a contractor tell a new homeowner that the window should remain closed for a few months untill it comforms to the shape of the frame(true story). You have probably heard all of this stuff before, and I can tell that you have spent a lot of time and hard knocks perfecting a system that works for you, and Its good to see you are asking to see how other folks are doing it. You seem to be doing things one step ahead of the framers in my neck of the woods. Somehow I think thats a good thing, because a lot of folks around here have just barely mastered the frame, sheath , stand approach of framing so prevelant in these parts. Do you think it would be a good idea to have a new type of inspections for this newer type of building your doing, or should your type building be jugded the same as a the traditional way of framing? I know that building codes difer all across the nation, depending on ones enviromental local, do you thing you could alter your framing techniques to corresponding building codes of different regions, and still keep prices low, and still make a profit? I personally, come from the North East and have worked restoring 200 year old homes, and have seen how they were weaved together to creat a whole, that would withstand the several generations of being lived in. There has been many a day on the drive home that I wonder, are any of these homes gonna be here in 200 years, or are the lifespans shorter. I personally am always interested in new materials and techniques, and think the marriage of the traditional post and beam, with some of the newer materials is the way to go. of corse its defenitely a lot more exspensive, but its pretty much the same idea that you have.
*Blue,I think the problems I've seen in the closed soffits of older houses in this area often starts with clogged or deteriorated gutters. We get alot of rain here. Beyond that, I think its probably just the effect of time and gravity on a suspended horizontal surface residing next to running water. Letting the roof go in need of repairs is probably a factor too. On exposed rafter systems the damage is usually to rafter ends and the edge of the sheathing. Is there an advantage to closed soffts other than appearence?JonC
*So, Crawford, you're thinking crappy framing is a regional thing???? A Carolina thing???And here I thought it was everywhere, except for MI, of course. Blue, jeez, this makes me feel terrible about the speed square snort.Where do you hang, Crawford? Maybe I could bug you.BB
*Crawford,I read your huge post and am drawing a giant blank as to where to start in discussing with you any of the points on your mind....Blue's only specialty is that he is framing well from what we read here....How did you get so caught up in this basic fact to think and write this whole yak fest????JUST KISS IT,One_Eyed_Jack...and maybe Blue to(o)
*Well BB, I really came off being a damn yankee didn't I, well I've ramble to long on a sunday(obviosly because I didn't even to edit my post before I sent it and ran off to work for a few hours right down the road from where you all live I believe. No I do not think bad framing is just found in the Carolinas, its just I have had to back frame like you have, just to put in finish details. I would always welcome being bugged, so that I can learn how to be more diplomatic, when I open my mouth. By the way what do you all think about some of those houses down in the governors club? Dont you just wonder long it would take blue to frame one of those
*Jack ...and here I thought that I liked Blues new ways to frame, it must have come across as a slam, It looks like I pissed off bucksnort billy as well. sorry that you felt the need to reply so strongly, and here I thought it was a public forum, Blue I might as well apologize to you to, if this pissed Jack off, it will more than likely piss you off too.anybody else?
*I understand your skepticism Crawford, especially if you have been going behind poor framers. No matter what technique framers use, a good job will be good, and a bad job will be bad.You have correctly I identified a possible problem: unlevel foundations. Over the years, i have run into many poor foundations, but a lot more good foundations. They are much better nowadays because of the self leveling features on the newer laser levels. Heres how I used to deal with the marginal foundations>I used to run the sill plate, and then pull out my transit, and shoot all the corners. If I found a corner + or - 1/4", I'd make the adjustments. Usually I might find one spot that needed a few shims. The past few years, I have found that the foundations are very level, especially since most houses that I frame have one course of block layed to increase the height of the basement. I have heard that a lot of houses are built on a slab in many areas of the country, but I have never built on one. I have also heard that the slabs are notorious for dips, and bumps, and would make life difficult for framers using our methods. In the rare case that a foundation wall is severely out of level, like a slab sometimes is, I spend the time early in the job to get it straightened our, backcharging the builder, who then backcharges the foundation contractor.In the last few years, the foundations have been so good, I use another method to insure that they are level. I simply frame the deck, and then watch for puddling when it rains. If I spot a puddle, I measure the depth, and then go into the basement and raise that stanchion the amount measured. It works great.If an outside portion of the deck has a dip in it, it will show up when we stand the straight wall (it is critical to start with a straight frame prior to sheathing). Sometimes, 1/4" gaps appear when the wall is stood up. I then go outside and shim the low spots using steel shims under each joist, until the deck id tight to the wall. It's kinda like building the wall first, and then tucking the deck under it.In a worst case scenario, if the entire deck is tilted out of level 1/4" in 30"', I usually won't know, unless I've shot the basement with the transit. The corners will read out of plumb about 1/16", well within boca tolerances. The windows will also be slightly out of level, and slightly out of plumb. They will be square, function properly, and most importantly, look plumb and level. Fortunately, we don't run into that too often, and most cases are easily remedied by shimming at the foundation level.I've never heard cockamammee stories about letting a window settle to an opening. We don't deal in myths here, as most clients are building their 2nd, or 3rd home. We are dealing with a more sophisticated buyer, that have good lawyers!The building inspectors have been inspecting homes framed like this for more years than I've been framing. In fact, they have never seen a house get framed any other way! The biggest issues that I could see would be nailing patterns, and since we don't have hurricanes, nor earthquales, there are no nailing inspections.I would think that the lifespans would be shorter than a post and beam framed home. That could be a bad thing, or it could be a good thing. Structurally speaking, the frame is the same if you "stick" build it, or platform, tiltup frame it. The lifespans don't change due to the method, but heavier materials would inherently last longer.I think that this method would work fine, but would have to fine tuned into regional problems, such as unlevel slabs, out of square pours, etc. That's when a master boogerer earns his pay!Blue
*Apperance would be the biggest difference, although I wouldn't think that the nails sticking through the roof sheathing would be too good for long term weatherization efforts.I would tend to agree that the poor maintenace would have a lot to do with bugs in the soffit system. You can't generalize and say that closed soffit systems lead to bugs, YOu have to insert the word "un-maintained" somewhere to make the equation correct.Blue
*Albert, just to let you know, I stood up a 204 1/2" wall, that was 24' long last week. I sheathed it with osb horizontally! I actually prefer to run the sheating horizontally, cause it's easier to nail it accurately. I spaced it too!It also had a 16' tall chimney chase attched with thermoply sheathing.Blue
*Take it easy AJ, Crawford's actually raising some insightful points. An unlevel deck can wreak havoc on a frame. I've run into major problems when the garage foundations are out of plane with the house foundation, and there is a second story built over the garage (that's normal since the early nineties). His only attempt at insulting me was the crack bout modular. But that is very close to what we are doing, only on a closer to home basis. We aren't dragging the wall around the countryside, were just tiltin it up.He can try to challenge it if he wants, because I think that we are doingeverything right, to the best of our abilities. Our method for framing the overhangs is far superior to stick framing them after the trusses have been set, because everything is easily accessible for tight nailing. Occasionally I have to stick frame them off scaffold's too, and I know which method produces the nicest quality work: prebuilding is far nicer, with less effort, specially two stories up over a walkout! Thanks for coming to a fellow boogerer's aid though!Blue
*Crawford sounded kinda ramblin to me, that's all...and then he even posted that thought about his own post...More questions for the speed devil...When and what kind of scaffolding do you employ...do you ever rent...and how would you set rafters for a 12/12 pitch roof on a 28' wide home....Food for yak,Jack
*Crawford, I didn't sense any offense offered, and no offense was taken. I realize that you are comparing your experiences with words that I have written, and our worlds might be light years apart. That is what I like about the net!I'd be skeptical too, if I had to go behind and fix framers poorly framed houses! That isn't the case around here. If there is a bad crew (usually new crews that have left the nest too early), the word goes around. I saw one last year that Circo asked me to finish. I refused. The other crew finished it, and it took them longer thatn if they had started it. And the trusses were already set!Thanks for keeping me on my toes, don't be afraid to ask! Fire away, cause I got the answers!Blue
*thanks blue,.. Its good to see that I wasn't just ranting and that there are solutions to the problems that I questioned about, you truly have learned how to booger it all. No lie, I just heard a g.c. tell a customer that line about the window last week, of course he's also in arbitration right now and I'm due back on the job to help with some piddly stuff next week, and no I had nothing to due with that window, I dont work on framing crews anymore, I had one friend tell me I was a little slow, I think i'm getting to old or something.
*I rarely use anything more than a 2x10, or 2x12. I deplore metal scaffold.I'm assuming that the 28 ft wide home will have a sloped ceiling, thus making the roof work high, 15' above the plates!That could be a tough one if the room is too big.If the room can be scaffolded with a 24' 2x10, 0r 2x12, than I would do it that way. You are asking a tough question! maybe one set of metal scaffold in the middle would work, stretching planks either way.How long is the room?Blue
*I'm slow too, but thankfully I studied well in my youth. I can still outframe most of the young bucks. It's the old story of the tortoise and the hare (I'm the tortoise!) I'll usually think each phase through, thouroughly, before I make a move. The boys will see me standing and thinking before a tough wall. Sometimes I have to take a walk, before the solution hits me. I've learned not to rush into a tough spot, cause you'll always make it tougher!I get good laughs out of the rookies when I see them workther way into a corner! Of course, I never stepin early and bail them out!Blue
*twenty foot room, the chalet I told you about...I have built many of these and have set all off an extension ladder...then used scaffolding (that I eventually purchased) to finish out the interior (insulate, knotty pine, etc.)Do you use ladders much at all???... I have had several on a job always.J
*I have all sizes on the job. i'm a type 1a wood ladder freak!A 20' room is not unmanagable. I'd put a nailer on the gable wall, about 5 or 6' down from the peak. I'd put some type of ledger on the opposing deck, or wall, and strectch a 20' (2x10) plank, supported in the middle with a 2x10 stanchion. Sometimes I have to splice the stachcions if the height is too great. I might also doulbe the plank to stiffen it.I don't mind walking on a 2x10 plank, but some might.Is theridge beam managable, or do you need a crane to lift it?Blue
*Crawford, I forgot to mention that sometimes I have to tweak the windows after I have installed them. The wood window can still be adjusted as much as 1/4" by driving wedges (wood shims). This is a rarity though, if you have carefully set the window parallel to the top plate.Blue
*The biggest lvl's I ever want to lift by hand...Here's the tale...I was scared that one of us might drop an end and came up with neat trick...Log home so had 12" spikes everywhere...each of us had two spikes and held our end of a beam like a book next to our side...we would go up one rung of extension ladder and set beam on spike sticking out of rung...then pull spike from below and set it up in next rung...The guy that was not stepping clamped by hand vigorously the beam to the side of his ladder so as to make sure the thing didn't flip flat and take us both off our perches...We set room in the attic trusses by hand too and only need three men...J
*That sounds like a good idea, for a bad situation. I used to set large stuff by hand too, but now, since I know a crane is coming, I usually wait.We always havet he crane out to set the trusses, and then run over to the next job, and set the steel. He charges us 80$ per hour, with a four hour minimum. We usually pay only the minimum. My ex partner and I never paid more than the minimum, and we normally only had ourselves there! The crane operator would hook them and send them up two at a time. Mypartner was an older guy too (42) and was very sharp, and taught me many boogering tricks! In fact, I think he was the original master boogerer, but he did excellent work!Blue
*That's great when a crane is nearby...but in this instance I was near Manchester VT...not my home area and no one was willing to help me get things done for the right price...Protective little enclave for sure, so I said screw it and figured out how to do it myself..Same patience as my Grandpa who would walk us all out of a restaurant if food didn't hit the table in ten minutes!!!More tales...Had a crew leave after ten hours when we were just ready to set the second floor post and beams...I wanted to see it all together after waiting too long for a delayed shipment, so I set one end up on a saw horse, then the other and with a full moon had the whole d*mn thing built to their surprise when they came in the next day...Any body movin to slow near me gets stepped on literally.Enjoying the humpin wether I'm humpin for dollars or fun,Jack
*I knoe exactly what yur talkin about! sometimes the extra help is just more burden! I once had to set a 22' 52# per foot beam. I had 7 guys, and we coudn't budge it. I sent them back to the other job, and got it set with a high school laborer. I cheated a bit though, cause I spent three years fabbing structural steel, and know how to use "beam turners". I use one that is made from a large pipe wrench, and a slightly bent 2 1/2 galvanized cheater bar.Blue
*Placed two eighteen inch tall 34' long steel I beams with one slug by hand in Westchester home not too long ago...GC forgot to set when crane could have got to them...Jack
*Now that sounds heavy! were they close, and you just had to roll them up, and into place?Blue
*Ramps, rollers, come a longs, bridges and peeves...The smartest thing I did was put a stopper chain on them as they moved out the temporary bridges into open space...if one had got away, I would have left it in the ravine below, packed up and headed North...Set them and their minor cross frame pieces in a little more than a day....For days beforehand I repeated my dockbuilding mantra to build courage and confidence of ability...Think like and Egyptian, Think like an Egyptian...J
*I think we could work together, ever think of coming to MI?Blue
*I want to hang glide at the lakeside dunes someday...maybe a little Boogerin on the side...My off season is November through February...Get a huge wall to place and I'm in.JTime for the sack...Great yaks were had...
*Crawford, I'm with you, not pissed in the least.The gov club, you are from my neck of the woods, son. I worked on one there that took almost a year to frame. Doubt blue could have done it any faster. considering they changed the roof height along with the second floor windows after it was up. Definitly custom.
*
Here in MI, we use a platform framing technique. We frame all the walls, square them up, install the windbracing, install the sheathing, siding, corner boards, windows, eaves/cornice, and then tilt them up.
We don't have nailing inspecions to deal with, and most framers do it this way.
What techniques are most prevalent in your area and why?
"Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."
*Blue,How do the corners come together and what wall jacks are involved?Stacking logs,Jack : )
*Blue,How do you do your eaves ?... or am I missing something here.Now Jack this is one method you won't be able to try if you're stacking logs.:)As for way we do things and why??Well because thats the way our Grandaddys did it!!
*When you ask about the corners, I'm assuming that you are asking about the overhangs. There are basically two different way to deal with the "pine". Let's say we are building a simple hip ranch, 28' x 40' using trusses with an 8/12 pitch and 6" heel. The overhang will normally be 12" plywood with 1x6 fascia, and 1x8 frieze.The first thing that I do is decide which outside wall makes the most sense to build. Since this is an easy rectangle, I'll usually frame both the front and the rear (the 40' wall in this case) simultaneously.I usually snap the outside lines, lay out the plates, frame the studs, and then calculate the height of the "pine".The pine calculations are follows. I find the height of the top of the fascia, and all other dimensions are derived from that number.Heres the formula: (height of heel) - (drop) = top of fascia or:drop = (12" projection divided by 12[that's the unit run} x 8 [thats the unit rise]) NOTE: often we have brick ranches: the projection would then be 4" brick + 12" overhang = 16" projection. the formula would then look like this 16/12x8=?Ok, back to the real equation. the drop in this one is very simple: 8".remember, the heel was 6", take away the 8" drop, and you can easily see that the height of the top of the fascia is 2" below the top of the wall.Since I use a 2x4 subfascia, flush with the top of the fascia (this is optional, many carpenters drop the subfascia down an inch or so), it is simpe math to find the bottom of the subfascia, the bottom of the soffit that attaches to it, the top of the frieze, and then finally the bottom of the frieze.In this case, the bottom of the frieze is: 2" (dropped height) + 3.5" (subfascia) + .375" (soffit thickness) + 7.25" (frieze) = 13.125"I set my headers to accomodate the pine and then after sheathing, start my overhang by nailing the frieze on at the 13.125" line that I snap.I then add the soffit, hanging it over on each end 12" past the wall. I nail on the sub-fascia, holding it flush, and then the fascia ataches to that. I mitre the fascia on both ends.We then stand the wall up. I would use two jacks carefully placed (in this case, roughly ten feet from each end) and the wall will go up straight and rigid, if the cornice has been nailed securlely. The plywood soffit will actually keep the wall very straight if you have installed it straight, and blocked all the joints. The adjoining walls are done much the same, but the ovehang must be left short on each end. I then hang over the wall to "tie" the last pieces in, (usually 3' or less). In this case, I'd probably install 26' of frieze, 24' of soffit, 23' of subfascia, and 22' of fascia. That would leave a 12" section of frieze, 24" section of soffit, 42" section of subfascia, and 48" section of fascia to install after the walls are standing. Notice that I have staggered them back to make the "tie" easier. An alternative method, that can be used (on smaller walls) is to frame the second wall in the sequence, over enough to allow the pine to hang over, and then slide the wall into place. I don't usually do this because of the variables inherrent in most frame walls. I find that getting all the joints to fit perfectly is a tricky task, and will often take more time than the "tie in" method. I never stacked logs, but have put a roof on one (the log dude didn't know how to frame a roof!)The corner boards are another story!Blue
*I gotta see Jack laying them logs on the goround and then standing them up! The locals would think he went KooKoo!I explained the eaves in the reply to Jack, but I gotta tell you, that the Grandaddys did it with handsaws! If you're gonna dump some of old pappy's methods, you might as well revue them all!I know in some localities, there are naiing inpections that would make this type of framing impossible. Other areas just stick to what has been done.I had a right_hand_man that moved to North Carolina back in the early 80's. He attempted to show the crew that he hooked up with, how to pre-frame. He was hooted outta' there! He said it was quite tough conforming to all the unneeded ladder work. He's still there, after 20 years, though!Try it on a small wall if you haven't done it this way before. That way, if you screw everything up, you'll only be losing a few minutes of effort, to fix it.The worst thing that can happen is a miscalculation on the pine height. I have gotten pretty good at "compromising" over the years. I usually blow it once a year, at least. Most of the time, it's an inch high or low (poor arithmetic). The last error that I made was a one inch (too low) error. It was on the second story sidewall (a small offset wall about 16" long), and I simply added on a one inch strip to the top of the fascia (a dutchman). The seam is nearly invisible (we use rough sawn spruce, rough side out) and the gutter will completely hide the seam anyways. I probably wouldn't do that on a highly visible area (such as next to the front door), but it works fine, where only the birds can see it.I used to triple check my calculations, but sometimes unforseen things happen. I'm now pretty comfortable figuring them once, and then re-figuring them a couple hours later. That way, I won't make the same mistake twice. Since I've recently gotten a competent crew, I let them tell me the heights, and I re-check them: but not until they have one overhang built and on the wall! This puts the pressure on them, to get it right the first time!The rookie forgot to figure brick into his equation a month ago. It was a 12/12 gable roof, over the study, in the front of the house. He had to cut the overhang loose, and raise it 4" straight up! He's learning! The hard way! And there ain't a better way to learn!Always searching for innovations,Blue"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine."
*That is just crazy talk, I am and always have been way to lazy to put siding and windows on, then try to lift one up! Jacks or not, all I can see is alot of work and money come slipping or siding down......CRASH........Oh sh*t! Frame um, sheath um, and stand um up! Put the next deck on and do it again. I guess it would be alot less work to build the roof on the ground, shingle it then just build the house under it(no high work or falling hazard). JUST KIDDING(don't get offended)Those wolverines up there are a strange breed, us Buckeyes just know how to get things done! KC
*We are crazy indeed KC. The big timesaver is on the second floor. If the example that I gave was a two story, same dimensions, etc, the savings would be substantial! I would probably need 4 or 5 hours to assemble a second story, 40' long wall complete with wood lap siding, and overhangs. I would be working by myself.Two wall jacks, 11' 10" (more or less, depending on how it is attached) long, will stand the wall up, and lock it in a plumb position while we brace it up. Your concern about the wall slipping and sliding off is well founded. Care must be taken to anchor the wall to resist that force. Most carpenters, nail banding straps to the bottom of the wall, and firmly anchor them to the deck. I've yet to have one go over, but if it ever does, I'll be the first to the edge to witness the spectacular crash! I'll be grinning from ear to ear! I have heard many "WALL OVERBOARD" stories, but usually they can be traced to simple oversight. Like, all the carpenters let go at once and walked to get a brace, no one fastened the bottom down, etc.There are many stories that tell of windows that survive the two story fall! I've heard of crews HUMPING THE WALL BACK UP!Actually, it's a safer way to frame, it eliminates the scaffold time for siding and overhangs. We insist that the builder get the windows on-site prior to framing the second story walls. If I have to lug a 3oo# window up ladders, I'm not too happy!This technique is not used if the siding and overhangs are vinyl. I rarely get a "maintenance free" job, and the vinyl is installed by a siding contractor anyways. If I was building my own though, I'd probably figure a way to do it!Wild and wacky in MI, thank you!,Blue"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it."
*Blue, I, too, am here in NC, and maybe we're just laid back, but sounds like a lot of lifting to me. How many guys ( don't got no jacks, but do got guys) do you think it would take to lift that fully loaded 40' wall? What about tweaking for level and plumb? Or is that even a consideration ( round here they figure, round planet, who's gonna know)? As ususual, you pique my interest. BB
*I'm going to give you a couple of different answers. A forty foot wall that has foam, and an overhang, with a couple of header will take five men. You could figure that each man is lifting about 8' of wall/overhang. It will be an easy lift if everyone lifts equally. I've seen it done with less, but I believe in saving the back. In my younger, stupider days, I've even had to lift walls one edge at a time. We'd all congrgate on one end and lift the wall up a few feet (you'd be surprised how much walls can flex), and then put a leg under it. We'd then go over to the other end and repeat the process. Eventually, the wall gets close to plumb, and gets light enough to stand up. Back to the 40' wall question. If the wall is sheathed with osb and an overhang, I'd want at least 5, but prefer 6 men. If you add lap siding, the wall gets considerably heavier. You would probably need 6-7 men. It's been years since I raised a forty footer by hand, so I might be a little off with my estimates. On the lasty house, 4 of us stood up a 22' wall (osb and overhang) without jacks, without straining. That seems like the limit. My back does not like lifting walls, and I'd usually prefer the jack(s). I'd only hook one up on a 22' wall.One thing that will cause problems on a hand lift is fear. If some think that the wall is too heavy, they tend to not lift, thus placing additional burden on the others. Spacing is important too. Usually, when the wall is near plumb, some are holding back, some are pushing out, it's a big mess unless a confident eye, and voice take control.Of course everything has to be plumbed, and straight. We temporarily brace everything up, but don't do the final tweaking until all the exterior walls, as well as the interior partitions are completed. You'll find that the tweaking will go very quickly. The 12" plywood soffit system acts like a staightedge, and locks the wall fairly rigid for its entire length. Of course, if the wall is crooked before the overhang is installed, it will stay crooked too! Be aware! If you have a nice flat surface, you will usually have no problems.In the olden days, it was routine for the plumbers, or trimmers, or other tradesmen to be called out to help lift walls. Nowadays, most trades don't want to be bothered. Theres liability issues. I won't help others, but will always offer them the use of my wall jacks. One stubborn old codger actually got mad at us for refusing (we offered the jacks, and they scoffed). We watched from across the street as they humped up a 40'wall, with osb and lap siding, using the "one end at time" method. And they thought we were stupid!I quit helping years ago when the walls started growing. It's not unheard of for young bucks to atand up walls that are two tories tall, 30' long, with overhangs, and somtimes gables too! Everything has to be right for these monsters to get stood up safely. If I don' supervise the building of it, I ain't getting under it! And also, if I won't stand one by hand for myself, I ain't going to do one for others! They are way too dangerous. Most crews hire a crane nowadays for the biguns'.Anyways, start with small ones and learn what weight you, and your crew can lift. Blue
*Blue, I hope you will allow a question from a trim guy.I know you are squaring your walls on the deck and all, and up here lots of guys will sheathe and then stand up the walls, but doing it your way do all your windows come out plumb and level? Do you go to real lengths to make sure your deck is perfect? Ever bust a window on a flexy long wall?Your point about carrying windows up a ladder is well taken, though, if you are faced with that.
*You raise an interesting and good point, Adrian. First, we assume that our decks are perfect, but I'm sure there are some minor deviations. A 1/4" deviation won't be noticed, but 3/4" will jump out at you.Here's how I install the windows. I make some assuptions that: if the deck is level, the top plate is level too. I then set the top of the brickmolding of the window, parallel to the top plate. I nail the two top corners, then I square the window using diagonal measurements. I then nail the bottm corners. I check with a straightedge (my eye) to see if the side brickmoldds are straight. A couple more nails (depending on size), and viola! It's really very simple and straightforward. In many cases, the top molding will bump up tight to the bottom of the frieze board, which is also presumed level. Large windows will flex and break the seal. I take care, to jack both ends of the wall, at the same rate. The wall remains straight and there is no problems with flexing. Two houses ago, the rookie didn't do a very good job of nailing. We raised the wall, braced it, and went home for the weekend. A storm blew through. Monday morning: No window! The wind had blown it out. Luckily it was a small (26x65) casement and it won't cost the builder too much to replace it. No, we won't have to pay for it, we trade favors.After all the walls are standing and braced, you will usually find that the windows are true. If you need to tweak one, a well placed shim will usually do the trick. I've never broke a seal, or had any problems using this method, but I've heard stories...You mentioned long ladders and windows. How about a 4 section wood casement, that is up on the second floor of a walkout? On a two story wall, if I can't get the window (if it's a large one) prior to raising, I don't raise it! I don't like balancing windows, especially 25' in the air!Blue
*Couldn't you remove the sash from the frame?I'm impressed by this strongarm method of construction.
*Unfortunatly, the window had landed on the bottom corner and racked tself into oblivion. The super sent it back, and they might have remounted the sash.Strongarm, or strong walljacks?Blue
*Blue, how do you protect the unfinished wood interiors of wood windows until you get the lid on and shedding water ? We mostly use Pella, aluminium clad on the outside but unfinished clear pine on the inside and have been leery of installing them until the roof was on .We even hold off on the AC soffit until the roof has some felt paper on it . Overly cautious in Oklahoma, Chuck
*Like a moron, I dropped a $300 casement sash 10' into the bushes (for some odd reason I unscrewed the top first; and when I went to unhook the bottom...), in which I'd stored a pile of retaining wall blocks. Not a scratch. I belive in angels now, too.I meant remove the sash to lighten the lifting.Do you remember a post a while back from a carpenter in Calif. who was told -not- to square the frame in the R.O.; rather, they took the insulated sash and rapped 'em hard on the ground to make them fit the frame (parallelogram style). He wouldn't do it and quit. Now all those windows are fogging up...
*While he's lifting the wall with his left hand, he pops the clad and shingled roof on with his right... A couple nails, and the job's done. :)
*If there's on flaw in this system, you've found it. The windows are exposed to the weather until the roof goes on.One homeowner that I framed for, (a plumbing friend) tucked a plastic protector into the space at the head jam. It must not be affecting the finishes, or the builders would be doing something about it. The plastic kept them dry, and I would do it this way if I was concerned. I'm not, because the builder isn't.I've seen windows leaning against a house waiting to be installed for weeks. I usually set them asap, to eliminate the walkers.Stackin' 'em high in MI,Blue
*We often remove the sash to set the back-ordered windows on the second floor. It's usually the easist way to install them, hanging through the frame,and nailing...I didn't think them california dreamers were that smart!That's a funny story!Blue
*We don't shingle!Blue
*Blue, Recalled seeing this done in an old FHB article. Isuue 58, March 90. The article looks pretty close to what you are describing.
*This is how I learnedto do it back in 76.How do you frame them?]Blue
*Blue, We do residential remodeling, platform framing, 2x6 walls osb sheathing, stick frame roofs 16" oc with ½"4 ply fir. Don't think I could get the guys to do the siding or windows before standing the walls. I'm sure some of the tie in's to existing structures would be difficult using your MI technique though I do recall one guy who did his cornice work before standing the walls at a former employer. Now a confession, please don't ban me from Breaktime, but we have done second story additions using modular units. That's right modular! Custom made in a PA factory from our design to fit on top of existing homes. We've done 8 in the last 3 years besides the normal work we do. We typically tear the roof off on Monday, prep for setting the units Tuesday- Thursday and set the "boxes" on Friday. OK grill away.
*Here in northern VA I have seen tract houses (Ryan?) assemble the roof trusses, sheating and felt and then use a crane to lift this roof assembly onto the house. The first time I saw this I thought someone had roofed a basement. A framer I talked to said I missed part of the process, they build the first floor deck on the foundation walls, then build the second floor deck on top of the 1st deck, then assemble the roof on top of the 2nd deck. The crane then lifts both the roof and 2nd deck over to the side while walls are built and raised for the first floor. Crane places 2nd deck. Crew builds and sets 2nd floor walls. Crane sets roof. I guess if you are doing a tract of houses, you can use the crane effectively.Frank
*Frank, I'd seen Ryan do this both in NVA and Pittsburgh. It is pretty strange seeing the entire roof structure setting on the deck.
*Fred,This sounds pretty cool. I've heard about the factory in P.A., have you ever seen their operation? Joseph FuscoView Image