What do you think? I may agree with more points then I thought upon reading the title.
Barry E-Remodeler
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As with all headlines, this one is intended to grab your attention. She never says it's a waste of money just that remodeling is a bad investment, which it is.
and if all remodeling was subject to that analysis the only thingt that would ever get done is throwing a cheap coat of walmart off white on everything.we could sell all our tools and become painters and spend 60 hours a week in the bar instead of on the job.wait a minute this was supposed to be a "downside" argument....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
I read that article the other day and have chewed on it a little bit. I often do some limited cost benefit analysis for clients on whether something makes sense financially.
I have essentially stated to a few clients that it does not make financial sense to sink whatever amount of money on a project as they will more than likely not break even.
A classic example a 2000 sf ranch built in the 50's or 60's. Client pays $380,000 ($190/SF)for the house and wants to do a total gut and remodel. For me, that type of project runs around $150 sf so $300,000 .
Client will have 680,000 into a house or roughly $340/sf. The top selling houses in the hood will be at $250/sf. Does not make sense.
One client who I did this analysis for was on one of the HGTV shows on the return on investment. Unfortunately I did not do the work, but they came up $50,000 short on their return.
I will say that in certain areas where I work, adding square footage generally pays for itself immediately.
It is a noteworthy perspective, but lots of time kitchen and baths are so bad, they have to be redone.
Bruce
I come right out and tell my customers that most remodeling projects cost more than the value they add. The challenge is to figure out how to design a project that is really worthwhile.
A remodel I have going now is changing a horrible floor plan into one that will be a huge improvement, without adding on. The path to the garage was through a bathroom. If the bath was occupied, you could not get to the garage. Also had to open two or three doors to get to the garage. I moved a wall that enlarged the home office and created a new hallway in where a storage room was. Now the bathroom is just a bathroom. The hall to the garage is wide and will have a mudroom bench, coat hooks and cubbies. While we are at it, we are moving the hot water heater from the bathroom to the adjacent utility room and the bath will have room for a shower.
Find jobs where you know you can hit it out of the park!
Even though HGTV goes on endlessly about the ROI on a kitchen it's obvious that if a $30k kitchen increased value by $40k everyone would do it before selling the house. And it couldn't possibly anyway as the new home owner would just pick a house without it and then get it done and have paid $30k, not $40k for that kitchen.Based on the numbers I've seen in most circumstances you will end up with a positive ROI if you do the work yourself and simply pay for materials (free labor) but when you pay for labor and materials let's hope you're looking to personally enjoy the new space and not look at it as a money-making venture.
126347.5 in reply to 126347.1
Remodeling is totally subjective. Remember that your living conditions affect your life in all ways and if it's something that you want for your own happiness and frame of mind, then that is worth much more than the price of the renovation or what return, (if any), you will gain. If you're flipping houses then that's one thing. But if you're going to live in the house, for possibly a very long time, then that is quite another story.
That being said...people tend to go overboard because the greed most often exceeds the wallet & needs. You have to keep track of your original goal and stick to it. Extras and add on items are par for the course, but it doesn't have to be that way.
In journalism, the "hook" has to be either in the title or the first two sentences. This woman is a journalist and she's only doing her job.
I do agree with some of the points especially about the remodeling vs selling.
I always mention that the "living value" was worth more than the dollar value.
I think everyone is making pretty much the same points. I like living value.In all of the yrs I've been in this business the cost vs value has come up directly only a handful of times. Many times though the client and I have discussed the cost of the project vs how many years they plan to live there or what they would like to accomplish in terms of the remodel.Usually it's more about improvement in lifestyle over house improvementI read this article when an editor from Remodeling mag posted it. She thought that Remodelers would/should be up in arms.Except for the headline as written, it maybe makes some of the same points remodelers face every day when selling projects?
Barry E-Remodeler
I was just beginning contracting, at the height of the property / flipping boom, whan a guy asked me "Should I put in track lights?"
I asked him if he was planning to live in the house, or sell it. He hemmed and hawed ....
Look, I said, if I ask a question, it's because I need the answer. Personally, I like track lights, and if you want them, by all means go for it. If you're planning to sell the place, I'd hold off, because a lot of folks can't stand them. Your call.
That sums up a lot of remodelling. If you're doing it to make your own life nicer, go for it. If you're trying to second-guess what someone else will want in five years, lots of luck. That 'must have' steam shower will be as common as the dodo in five years.
Investment? Yea, right. None of the worthwhile stuff can be done cheaply - like rewiring the place or replacing the sewer line. The TV shows where the guy slaps on a coat of paint and sells the place a month later for $30,000 more than he spent are pure BS.
I am fortunate to be in a company with a reputation for being the best around, the clients we have know that they will not recoup the money they spend with us because of the kind of remodeling we do. I have had a potential client ask me point blank "why should I do this if I won't get my money back?" to which I asked why do you drive an $80K Mercedes when you could get where you are going in a hyundai?
"to which I asked why do you drive an $80K Mercedes when you could get where you are going in a hyundai?"
Okay, I give up. What's the answer?
Because you want the best and you can afford to have it.
Funny, I would have thought if they were being straight with you the in both cases the explanation would have been: "I'm doing this for social status, which for me is worth more than money".
I try not to look down on the people who help me feed my family, I'm glad they are willing to spend their money, whatever the reason.
Fair enough.
"I'm doing this for social status, which for me is worth more than money"that is painting with way to broad of a brush... and borders on a nose in the air thought process... almost racistwhy do you buy good tools? social status?why not buy cheap everything? because you know some stuff is junk with a limited life span and you can tell with one look it's junk and will always be junk...why pay a guy $100hr when you can find some guy on the side of the road that will work for for $12I can buy and drive 80k cars and have it cost me less per mile than your average 25k dodge.. or whatever...good stuff usually lasts... just like good workmanship... just be glad that some folks know this and can pay for itp
You're right I was being deliberately provocative, but I meant it in a light hearted way. I can't for the life of me see how you make the jump to it being racist. Where does race enter any of these discussions?
Let me explain what I was getting at: I am not arguing against quality, I just didn't think that the way the job was being sold provided any real justification for a client to add to their house. It would seem to me that the logical conclusion of equating brand-chasing with renovations is the belief that we all aspire to live in palatial houses in gated golf course communities. That it is only the lack of money that stops us from owning a stable full of Mercedes or other luxury goods.
Defining ones self as a Consumer as opposed to a Maker or Creator is an extremely recent way of being. It is something that would have been foreign to the thoughts of all our ancestors and ultimately I think is a poor position from which to make decisions about how you want to live. We are talking about quality of life, and here on BT with its preponderance of 50-somethings who have had a fair amount of life experience, I think you would be hard pressed to find much support for the idea that the problems that life presents can be solved by buying everything you can afford.
Why should someone renovate? Because it will make their home better at supporting their lives would be to me one legitimate reason. I'm sure there are many others, but because they can afford to and are used to "the best" sounds pretty hollow to me.
Lets say you had an old house in a historic neighborhood and you raised kids in it and struggled with small rooms and an outdated layout, and say you worked hard all those years and made a lot of money. You could A) Buy a new house with no personal history that is unfamilliar and hope you like it after the new wears off or B) Stay in the house you built your life in and put a lot of money in it you will probably not recoup and keep your neighbors, the yard you played ball with your kids in when they were little, the driveway you taught your daughter how to ride a bike in, the comfort your family feels when being "home" for the holidays. I dont think that is hollow at all.
Edited 11/10/2009 10:11 pm ET by zachariah
Not hollow at all. Nor have I ever suggested that what you are describing is. But that is a long way from "affording and wanting the best", or equating a one's house renovation to owning a luxury car.
You're right, I guess I am arguing both sides, having what you want because you can and the sentimental side.
The area around me has experienced a lot of growth over the past few years. Most of the houses going in have been on the waterfront as more affluent people have discovered the southwest tip of Vancouver Island. Most of these houses I would put in the "because I could" category. They are big. One has a climbing wall, all of them are loaded with stuff. The new owners though they could buy themselves a lifestyle, but it hasn't worked out that way. Of the seven who built on one nearby road, Fishboat Bay, five years ago, only one has not sold up and moved.
By all means renovate houses for people. Help them preserve the memories you so nicely wrote about. I bet you do very good work, and you are right to be proud of your firm. I just think that if you are going to spend your time, talent and resources on a project, you should make sure it is something that is being built for the right reasons. Not just because they can.
Well put, if you check out old commercial to new residence you can see my current project that was taken on by the town's mayor. His reason for the undertaking was that people had been talking for years about how people should move downtown to stimulate growth but nobody was doing it, so he bought an 87 year old vacant building and is making it his home. Pretty cool.
You sure don't need any advice from me about what to work on. That's a very interesting project.
No, as much as I appreciate it, having three kids to feed pretty much lets me know what to work on!!
<g> sam walton (of walmart) often played in the same poker game as my dad...it was a no win situation... he drove an old truck because he liked it... not try'n to save money it just never occured to him that he needed a new truck... so people called him "cheap" but he had a new airplane when few in the corporate world did... so he was just waste'n money or show'n off...point being and I might not have made it well... was few of us NEED much of what we have... and however basic the things we have are.. someone somewhere would consider it overkill to our actual needs... I just don't judge... it's not my call... if you think you need a 20,000sf home then god bless you and I extend a thank you for employ'n my brothers to build it and maintain it... you keeping your money in a box would do them little good...maybe racist was a bit hard :)p:)
Don't let me off the hook so quickly. How did Clint Eastwood put it? "I'm not prejudiced, I hate all races equally". <G>
Very well said, I don't know how ,any times I have been on a job site and one of the sub-workers-gcs, would say something to the effect "if this was my house I wouldn't do it this way" .....Well the truth be known if it was one of their homes we probably wouldn't be working on it! stinky
Okay, I give up. What's the answer?
Because the Benz has heated and cooled seats, at 90 Mph it's as quiet as my Ford Fusion is standing still with the engine off,The rear legroom lets my 5'10 frame stretch out and nap comfortably, If it's an S-Class the dealer will pick it up and leave a loaner car at service time......................and it's just plain cooler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every time I see my dad's S-Class my mind works on ways to get one for myself.
But it pretty much does wrap up what a lot of other have said here.................it's about the living experience.............not the value added at sales time.
The people who wrote that article have no idea what they are talking about. None!
Will Rogers