Removable or foldbackable deck railing?
We’ll be building a low deck off the first floor of a low bank waterfront house with a great view of Puget Sound and Mt Rainier.
The lay of the land demands a railing across the view and the customer has said more than once how nice it would be to sit there with no railing to interupt that view.
She doesn’t want glass.
So Ken and I were brainstorming the other day during lunch (while enjoying said view) and he came up with a couple great ideas, like a folddown railing, or possibly some type of sliding panels…
So anyways, since we have a little time, and deck railings are a common design issue, I was hoping we could get a brain storm session going here and come up with some ideas.
This customer has a very open mind. She thinks about principles like “opening the view” and leaves the details to us. But she also respects the fact that we have to meet certain code and safety requirements. Very reasonable person. Can’t remember a better match for me to work with.
So how about it? Any ideas? Any pictures of stuff you’ve seen or done to provide (almost) unrestricted views?
Thanks.
Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
Replies
get some of those disappearing TV mechanisms...
press a button...
no rails...
Code enforcement shows up...
press again and VIOLA instant rails!!!
Mr. T.
The Emperor has NO clothes!!!
the emporer has no closet...
the emporer has no clue...
the emporer needs someone to tie his shoes..
the emporer doesn't care about polls (they can be fixed)
Jim, I've done a fair amount of removeable railings.
The most recent was a stairs that hada landing 3-4 steps up from the floor. it was a stair that would be necessary to use to get furniture upstairs that might not turn the corner on the landing, so to make it removeable, I fitted the ends of top and bottom rail with a dovetail wedge joint. By lifting straight up, a section of rail and balluster comes off.
For exterior, having wood wedges fitting that dovetail would probably swell from rain and not leet it work, but you might be able to machine a steel piece to do the job.
Matter of fact. for exterior rails like the Fypon ones I've been doing lately, there is angle bracket used to fasten them in. I'm thinking that the angle bracket can stay on the post and instead of using a screw to fasten permanently, you could epoxy a SS pin exactly where the screw hole fits to the bottom of the rail. Then by sliding a rail section straight dowm with the pin attached going into the angle bracket, you have the lateral stability required by code, but simple gravity holding it in place. Application of sufficient gravity reversal apparatus wouldlift the rail section straight up and off.
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That's a cool project you're working on! Gotta love a client who appreciates both the view and safety concerns. I've got a few ideas that might help you out:
What about a folding railing system? These can tuck away when you want that unobstructed view.
Sliding panels could be neat - imagine them stacked to the sides like patio doors.
Have you considered retractable cable railings? They could hide in compact housing when not needed.
Pivoting railings are another option - they could rotate down to lay flat on the deck.
Simple removable panels might work too, if you're okay with a more manual solution.
If you need to keep some railing, maybe try half-height ones with planters on top?
For minimal obstruction, tensioned steel cables or clear acrylic might do the trick.
Good luck with your project!
Jim;
A couple of years ago, I had the same situation. What I did was build the rail and ballister panels and, on the panel ends where they met the posts, attached them with those locking brackets you use for removable sides for utility trailers.
The brackets are nice and sturdy to meet code, but all that's needed to remove the rails is to lift them up and out.
Might want to install a locking bolt at the top for safety reasons. I didn't, but one never knows....
Edited 5/28/2006 12:51 pm by Notchman
First impression with ease of mobility in mind for the lady is a slide mechanism hidden under adjoining rails.
More?
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
What is the lenght?
How often will you need to do this?
If this will be used once or twice a year for a large party and there can be a group of people that will install/remove them that is one thing.
But if she wants to use it several times a week and is the only one doing it then it would be a quick pain.
What about using steel post (for minimial size) and wire railing. Near invisable and stays in place.
I was thinking along the same lines as BillHartman--thick wire. Was it FHB or Inspired house where someone used hog fencing for a deck railing? That may work.
I would worry about something removable for three reasons--the homeowner (or someone else) removes it and forgets to put it back and someone falls (like at night); as the homeowner removes it, they slip and drop it on someone below; or they slip and fall off the deck with it.
Hog wire is our current fall back if we settle on a fixed railing. I like it a lot.
She is elderly. You all raise valid points about removable sections being a lot of trouble. That was my very first thought but Ken's folding, or "self storing" idea, kind of like a bifold door layed horizontally, seemed much better for a variety of reasons.
But hey, you're not supposed to say anything negative while brainstorming. You're just supposed to get a ton of ideas out where people can examine them. Every time you discount someone's idea, you inhibit someone else from risking a far fetched idea. And what the hey, we're just talking here, right? There will be plenty of time for sorting through ideas later.
Hey Rez - yeah, I'd like to hear more about the sliding to the side idea.
Heck, what about some type of bifold arrangement with strategically placed locking pins?Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
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I don't think that kind of brainstorming works very well over the internet.You either get what you got or the "klingon" suggestions. Built it normally and turn on the cloaking device when you don't want to see it.BTW, I was not thinging about wire fencing, but rather the hight tension cables, the type that you see in the ads.
My first thought when you mentioned retractable rail was of an electric garage door type installation.Posts on the front of the deck (extending to the ground) with tracks/channels attached between the sides. The railing panels raised and lowered by the garage door opener mounted under the deck. The panel would have to be large enough to project below the front of the deck in the up position for normal attachment and function of the opener cable/chain. Any kind of panel could be used including glass, but provision should be made to make sure that toes or hands don't get sheared when the panel is going down.The only thing visible when retracted would be the posts (unless you have intermediate positions). If you used 3 single wide panels there would be only 2 posts to get in the way of the view in 30 feet. Double wide's about 16 to 20 between the posts. Solenoid operated safety bolts/latches to ensure that the railing doesn't drop if some people decide to sit on the top when it's in the elevated position.An electric eye could be setup to raise the railings if anyone approaches the edge of the deck. They wouldn't be fast enough to be up if someone walks quickly toward the edge, but the noise of the opener starting would alert them, and hopefully be enough to make them stop.Costs shouldn't be all that bad since most of the components are off the shelf or easily made.You said you wanted ideas no matter how far fetched so here is one more. Make the railing fall forward like a drawbridge. The raising/lowering mechanism may be harder to design but if it isn't lowered completely, the slope would alert you when you get near the edge of the deck. Make the railing with spindles not solid panels to prevent future dimwits from thinking it's to enlarge the deck area for parties.
Just the thought that a woman isn't going to want to manhandle a rail section all the time so some sort of slide section sounds attractive.
However it also could reek of unneeded complexity.
Thus I change my vote.
Now I'm into two short hinged pieces as a swing gate opening to the left and right.
be the shortest distance between two points
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Many churches have rails where people kneel for communion. Some have removable rail sections. I can't say for sure, but it seems some have special hardware for this.
Imagine posts that fit through the adjoning railing sections like a door pin slides through two hinge leaves. The post had a caster mounted on its lower end, of the same or smaller diameter as the post. The post fits into a socket in the deck for stability.
When the railing needs to be removed, one slides the first post out of its socket, moves the railing panel slightly and sets the caster down on the deck. One goes to the next post in line and does the same. Soon all the railing is suspended on posts that roll on casters, and these can be accordioned against a wall at the side.
Ta da.
Invisible fencing!!!
every one who goes on the deck gets a collar...
No one will get close enuf to the edge to fall off!!!
Mr. T.
The Emperor has NO clothes!!!
the emporer has no closet...
the emporer has no clue...
the emporer needs someone to tie his shoes..
the emporer doesn't care about polls (they can be fixed)
don't let anybody out on the deck....
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I like MisterT's idea about the invisible fencing. (-:
Two thoughts come to mind. First would be some small steel posts and 1/4" cable strung between them. That would make for minimal visual interference.
Next would be "stepping" the deck. Like make the main part of the deck 8' off the ground. Around that have steps going down to a walkway that's only 6' off the ground, and surrounds the main deck. Then put a normal railing around that area.
That way when you're sitting up on the main part of the deck your line of sight would pass over the top of the railing.
Thats a great idea I will definately keep that one in mind on any large decks I build.
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All i could come up with is 2x 4 rail Hinged on one end dual latches the other end and a wheel on the bottom of latch end, rail would need to swing in obviously , but if you wanted you could form the hinge side of the deck in a fashion that when the rial was in an opened position it slides in to a recess that protrudes on that side of the deck, leaving it flush with the normal rail but in the open position. A positive stop would also be needed on the latch side.
Do you have room for a two level deck? You could have steps down to a lower deck with the railing thats out of view of the main level. Anything removeable might leave you wide open!
Lots of great ideas here. Thanks. Keep them coming.
As a side note - one of the customers originally talked about stainless steel cable as one possibility. We were quoted a price of $90.00 (U.S.) per lineal foot for powder coated posts and stainless cable, installed. Even on a small deck, it got expensive, fast. Plus the other owner wasn't so crazy about cable, that's when I heard the first "geez, what a shame to block the view at all".
Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Jim,How about addressing the issue with seating, instead? Have the deck furniture tall enough that the sightlines pass easily over the rails. The removable rails sound like big liability. I really like Boss Hog's idea of the step down deck the best, but you have to have the room and the budget for it to work.Another idea is tightly stretched barbless fence wire between galvanized pipe posts. This would rust, but be way cheaper than the stainless system.Bill
I was thinking something simple like a gate, break in center, hinged to open in and fold flat against either sides or itself. If fold onto itself, only the middle half of the view would be un obstructed, which might be enough. I would probably put a toe board to prevent things or people from accidentally getting too close to the edge.
Rich.
Installed a set of Bessler attic stairs for clients. Later they wanted a 'foldable' railing around the large opening in the attic floor that they could raise when walking about up there, but lay down if they needed to move large stuff up.
Built the railings out of 2x4's, remember it's in a attic so nothing fancy was required. Used plain old door hinges to hinge the bottom rail to a 1x4 'sleepers' on the floor (these were actually lengths of 4 1/4" baseboard). Had the railings on three sides of the opening. When pulled into the 'up' position (using simple door pulls/handles to assist with the lifting) the two corners where the railings met were 'latched' together using double hung window sash locks. Simple and easy to use.
Don't see any reason you couldn't adapt something like this for outdoor use. Max. length of rail section limited by clients ability to lift same. Codes is another issue, but the 200 lb lateral force was easily accommodate by the set up I built. Then there's the 'what will it look like with the rails folded down question".
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
hinge each baluster on the bottom left side and the top to the underside of top rail on the right side. The whole thing folds down to one direction.
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Pretty crude, huh?
Okay - that post from 2006 has still not been solved. Here we are in 2024 and Im researching deck railing ideas to make the most of my lake view. Many of the ideas in this brain storm are neat - thank you - and now I shall share a video I found of a van life roof deck folding railing system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqCClKTsdiU
I have also seen my Uncle-in-Law deck rail out in Iowa. His was all steel but its a great idea. Essentially at the 24" horizonal he put in a hinge and the deck rail swings down (inward) at the hinge. He put some stops and locks on the uprights.
Now my idea is to take three things in one. I am planning a 42" high "cocktail" railing.
I want to make my deck rail from "hog wire" or "chicken wire" with coated or 16 gauge wire. Next I will split my railing to drop similarly to what Uncle Richard did. If that is not enough I want to build in sections that are benches facing inward that can convert to picnic tables facing outward. Amazon has brackets that accomplish this here: https://a.co/d/0eACes1p. So in my corners Ill have the built in benches and the rest of the deck length Ill have the drop down.